Hi,
I was at a dinner party and a few of the people there were servants. We were talking about Christ's crucifixion, and His death, and they proved that Christ DID NOT DIE because of pain or suffering on the cross.
Please tell me what you think, and what the opinion of the Church is also.
Here are the main points that were used to arrive at this conclusion:
1. Christ was not born of Adam's sin. He did NOT inherit Adam's corrupted nature.
Of course here we mean that God created Adam eternal, and Adam, by his own will decided for him that it would be more interesting to die, so he brought death upon himself. Hence, we inherited this corrupted nature that dies and is prone to sin.
Christ BYPASSED this nature. He was immortal.
2. If Christ was born WITHOUT inheriting Adam's sin, it means he is immortal. He cannot die. So, how then could he die (on the cross)??
The conclusion of this point was that it wasn't the cross that killed Him. He suffered and experienced suffering, but it wasn't the suffering that killed him, nor the pain. It was His OWN WILL that He gave up His Life.
Its a case of the eternal God is Eternal, but because of His Will, HE CAN Choose to die.
3. The Scriptural References
a) Christ said to Pilate:
I have authority to lay down my life, and I have authority to take it.
b) Christ said to the Father:
"in Your Hands, I commend my Spirit".
i.e. He decided WHEN He was going to die.
-----------------------------------------------
Now, if all this was obvious for you, that's great. For me, it is quite new. I thought that Christ died FROM the suffering on the Cross. As a direct result of. Apparently, according to these servants, this is not the case.
Can anyone here confirm any of this?
Comments
When Christ said to Pilate, "I have authority to lay down my life, and authority to take it back" -
What this means is that through * HIS WILL * He is giving up His Life. Through * HIS WILL * He is taking it back. It is not the cross that killed him. (According to what was discussed).
Secondly, when He was on the cross, He commended His Spirit to His Father. It is by His Will He ended His Life, His Will that He resurrected.
I know many here will say "It was the will of the Father" - sure.. but, I think you know what I mean? Right?
But, my point is this:
Its GOD's WILL that He gave His life; It was not due to the crucifixion.
This is the ultimate point being presented.
What is the official view of the CoC?
Thanks
i highly suggest that you read Pope Shenouda's "The Nature of Christ" since this is what the book talks about
this is a very deep subject and a simple post cannot summarize it
That means that every horrible, wretched experience you have ever had was counted among the countless which He personally experienced as He suffered for mankind! And I am the worst of men to have ever wanted His mercy and dared to reach for someone so Pure, so Selfless, so Holy and Merciful, such that writing this, nay, even the thought causes me to tremble and weep as I am instantly overwhelmed...
I'm sorry if this is not in agreement with the Coptic Church's beliefs, but this is the exact reason why I am Orthodox.
It sounds a little like they're implying that He didn't die from the suffering inflicted on Him, it was act of will of God that killed Him? I hope I am not misunderstanding what was conveyed to you, it sounds a little like they make out as if Christ brought about our salvation by committing suicide.
The verses related to the will of God were to confirm whether or not this was an intentional and voluntary act of suffering He chose to hand Himself over for and hence an in intentional act of salvation by God by giving Himself to the Jews to be crucified and die on the cross.
The actual moment they speak of (the death itself) is not the moment when Christ would have made Himself subject to human suffering, this would have happened from the moment He was born and laid to rest in an animal food trough. He suffered many things an incorruptible human cannot suffer such as hunger, tiredness, being spat on an whipped.
I don't have any specific patristic passages on the subject but here are some I have searched out that I hope will be helpful.
Here are some passages from St Athanasius on this subject in 'On the Incarnation': http://www.google.com.fj/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm&rct=j&q=on+the+incarnation+st+athanasius&ei=xBduS8G6PIKKsgOH1oWKAg&usg=AFQjCNFPdk3LR3fHW33cC3BNFIK0EfIhzQ
The will of the Father and Christ explained in these verses was that He was allowing Himself to be made subject to sinful men who would crucify him not just the moment of death: St Cyril comments in his commentary on Luke's Gospel: God Bless
It is at this point where I may, unfortunately, have conflicting views. My views on this matter are in complete harmony with the official stance of the Church in regards to the Council of Chalcedon.
Hi Mixalhs,
I would find it very hard to believe that we would have conflicting views on a point like this.
God bless
[quote author=Mixalhs link=topic=8778.msg110102#msg110102 date=1265507887]
It is at this point where I may, unfortunately, have conflicting views. My views on this matter are in complete harmony with the official stance of the Church in regards to the Council of Chalcedon.
Hi Mixalhs,
I would find it very hard to believe that we would have conflicting views on a point like this.
God bless
Yea Mike, we are the same.
[quote author=Mixalhs link=topic=8778.msg110102#msg110102 date=1265507887]
... suffered EVERY mortal sin and pain as He became the perpetual, eternal sin offering for the whole of mankind...
Despite the rest of the reply that i will be lost if i try to comment on, the part above was a little weird for me. What do you mean by "every mortal sin and pain"???!!! pain i can understand, being human pain that He would feel being a human...but SIN? what sin?! If you refer to Adam's original sin, than He wouldn't be the same Christ we are talking about at because the real Christ is begotten without the sin of men.
If you say the normal human sins that we do than you lower his authority to one like us, a corrupted nature that is good in nothing except sin. Not only that but you'd be separating His 2 natures where the human one would override the divine because sin is done through the human's choice... I am sorry, but i just have to comment on this.....we ARE the Coptic Orthodox Church...the original Church of Alexandria, the See of Saint Mark.
I personanly am wating for an answer from Father Peter about this. Not only for the question but also your reply Mixalhs:
[quote author=Mixalhs link=topic=8778.msg110102#msg110102 date=1265507887]
... suffered EVERY mortal sin and pain as He became the perpetual, eternal sin offering for the whole of mankind...
Despite the rest of the reply that i will be lost if i try to comment on, the part above was a little weird for me. What do you mean by "every mortal sin and pain"???!!! pain i can understand, being human pain that He would feel being a human...but SIN? what sin?! If you refer to Adam's original sin, than He wouldn't be the same Christ we are talking about at because the real Christ is begotten without the sin of men.
If you say the normal human sins that we do than you lower his authority to one like us, a corrupted nature that is good in nothing except sin. Not only that but you'd be separating His 2 natures where the human one would override the divine because sin is done through the human's choice... I am sorry, but i just have to comment on this.....we ARE the Coptic Orthodox Church...the original Church of Alexandria, the See of Saint Mark.
I apologize for making this part a little incoherent. This subject is a little emotionally overwhelming and I am prone to not saying what I mean. I intended to say that He suffered the punishment for every sin. It's one of those things that you have to feel since it is beyond words.
I only mentioned the possibility of this not being the universal belief because of the implications of the Council of Chalcedon. I have heard that this discrepancy is, for the most part, settled, but I was just unsure of your positions on this.
It is a subject in which we must depend on the writings of the Fathers and not simply on our opinion.
Our Lord Jesus Christ was certainly mortal in his humanity, but not sinful. St Cyril and St Severus have much to say on this subject.
It is necessary to distinguish between the mortality of his humanity, and therefore the fact that he was liable to pain and suffering and even death in his humanity; and the voluntary nature of his death, in that at any time he could have said, 'No!' and legions of angels would have surrounded him. He chose to die in his own body that was subject to death, and his being subject to death and mortality, being the penalty of Adam's sin and the sentence laid upon mankind, it is said that he took sinful flesh - yet there was no sin in him.
But I will post again later and we can look at what the Fathers say.
If folk have time they might want to read a short article I wrote on the subject of the mortality of our humanity which is posted on the Erkohet website here...
http://www.erkohet.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=103:blazingdartsfromtheorient&catid=46:smnufathersgeneral&Itemid=17#Anthropology
It will give some background to the teaching of St Cyril and St Severus.
God bless
Father Peter
Hi,
of course we should have the View or official view of the church, but before we do, may I just ask that we verify each point in this discussion, as I have just learnt that the basis of the conclusion from this discussion was that Christ died as a result of his own will, and not as a direct result of the physical pain on the cross, could be incorrect.
I just spoke with a theologian today who told me that Adam was created to die physically. That even if he did not disobey God, then he'd have died anyway.
The entire basis of this discussion was on the understanding that death, both spiritual and physical entered man. This is the corrupt nature we inherit from our parents.
If Christ was born without sin and the effects of the original sin, then he would never have died.
Before we go on, can you just kindly go over each point that I mentioned to see if it's right or wrong. There's no point in going any further if the basis on which we building our understanding is flawed or incorrect.
May I just also make a comment about the opinion someone made who said that what is being suggested is that Christ committed suicide. I suppose this is how one could view the situation, but we could easily argue that even if christ did die of physical pain on the cross or suffocation, this is ultimately suicide because he himself wanted that. He chose that.
so, I do not feel the term suicide is correct because suicide is a selfish act, whereas dying for someone else is a life giving act. Whether Christ gave up his physical life by his own will oe whether he lost it as a result of the pain on the cross, either way, this is not suicide.
As far as St Cyril and St Severus are concerned:
i. All created physical beings are by nature liable to dissolution and are mortal.
ii. Adam was created mortal, as all created physical beings are mortal. Left to himself he would have fallen prey to age and physical death.
iii. When it is said that God breathed life into Adam the Fathers understand this as meaning that God breathed his Holy Spirit into Adam. By this gift of grace he became immortal and truly alive to God.
iv. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed to live immortally with God in Paradise. Even though he created Adam mortal, yet he gave him the gift of immortality.
v. When Adam sinned he lost the grace of the presence of the Holy Spirit, which was a gift and not integral to his humanity.
vi. Sin is not a substance, it is not a thing, it is a turning of the will away from God. Turning from God is a turning away from life.
vii. Without the grace of the Holy Spirit Adam and Eve found themselves living in accordance with their natural mortality. More than that they found themselves without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They were therefore naturally mortal in accordance with their created nature, but also subject to a spiritual death because they had turned away from God.
viii. Because God had foreseen this eventuality he had already created Adam and Eve as male and female so that the human race would not be destroyed by mortality.
ix. God also moderated his chastisement of Adam and Eve, and all mankind, and granted that our souls remain immortal and always longing for God - even unconsciously - while only our bodies would be subject to mortality, so that we would not remain for ever in a situation of rebellion against God.
x. The purpose of the incarnation is therefore to renew the Holy Spirit in the life of man, to bring about a forgiveness of sins, and to remove the curse or sentence laid upon men.
xi. Therefore the Word assumed our own mortal flesh, and he was liable to hunger, thirst, tiredness, sorrow and ultimately death. By living a life entirely given over to the service of God by conforming the natural human will to the divine will, and by committing no sin at all, he was able to receive the Holy Spirit on our behalf. Yet the reception of the Holy Spirit did not make him immortal in his humanity, and he was still liable to death in a mortal body.
xii. By dying on the cross - among many other things - he passed through death on our behalf, and by his resurrection he entered into immortal life in the gift of the Holy Spirit for us. Humanity in him was restored to the life God had intended for Adam. By his death he bore the punishment of Adam and of us all, for Adam's sin and our sins. But by his resurrection he established a new humanity that is not subject to the sentence of God against Adam.
xiii. Christ did not die on the cross by compulsion. He was not forced to die. Nor did he die simply by the expiration of the body due to forces beyond his control. And most certainly we should not speak of Christ committing suicide. But he offered his life to the Father and it was received as a sacrifice for our sins. Just as he did not need to become incarnate but chose to do so, so he did not need to die even though his body was mortal, but he chose to enter into death on our behalf.
Father Peter
All of our comments need to be supported by the testimony of the Fathers and I will provide some quotations later, God willing, but I am just back in from services at Church.
As far as St Cyril and St Severus are concerned:
i. All created physical beings are by nature liable to dissolution and are mortal.
Fr. Peter, first of all thanks for the time you've given this. I really hope you can be patient with me.
I am FULLY aware that this is from the Fathers. I am aware of that. And this is the strangest thing. Do you think our Church has deviated a bit from the original orthodox faith? or from the teachings of the fathers???
As you can see that I started with a question, and then half way through, I was not sure that the basis of that question was even correct, and now I'm reading your answer.
What I'm trying to say is, I'm interested in just the answer and furthermore, it is Not my objective to have an opinion on this matter. It was an honest question, that I expected a yes or no answer for. However, I have to say this.
Although I admit I'm ignorant about patristics and theology, I've been discussing this issue today with other priests (Yes, Priests!!) - and it seems they see things differently than what you've written.
This only causes confusion (for me, at least!!).
I'll tell you where the misunderstandings are, and perhaps hopefully, you can tell us or explain what the truth is?
Now, this could a problem within the Church that we are just experiencing right now? I mean, if you've quoted our Fathers, and I've quoted our Pope, then perhaps this problem is already being discussed within the Church's theological circles, and we aren't even aware?
You are the innocent person giving me quotes from the fathers of the Church; and yet, our contemporary fathers have stated otherwise.
Can we try and iron out any of these discrepancies??
I'm not blaming you, nor causing division. You are innocent of anything, and I just find myself with VERY inquisitive mind that is trying to understand my religion.
Please do not blame me also for asking. Nor blaming for asking priests AFTER I have posted this. I just happen to know a LOT of priests and today, they were all in the same building having a coffee, with crumpets and cake.
See, this is the problem. Apparently, according to His Holiness Pope Shenouda, this is not the case. H.Holiness said (and please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood):
There are 2 punishments for sin:
a) The Physical
b) The Spiritual.
One cannot eliminate the physical consequences or effects of sin. For example : When God said to Adam: if you eat of this tree, you will surely die; he incurred a Physical punishment (i.e. He died), as well as a spiritual punishment (he was spiritually dead, and in enmity with God).
These are the words of His Holiness.
Let's talk about them later.
I really need to be sure of the basis of this in order to conclude anything. If the basis is wrong, then whatever we conclude will be wrong. Sounds good. Perhaps it is my weak English, but this doesn't make sense. Are you saying that God created Adam and eve MORTAL, yet gave them everything that they need to live immortally? What for? Something here doesn't make sense. Please could you kindly re-phrase this point. I have no idea on this issue. OK. What is meant by "natural" mortality? That's really interesting. Do you mean that God forsaw that they would sin, so He created them as male and female so they would multiply??
Now, to prove to you that I'm being fair with you and not trying to cause any problems with you or the Church - there is something that the Pope said that doesn't make sense at all; yet it only re-enforces what you have written:
* I mentioned above that he said that there are 2 consequences of sin (or punishments):
a) Physical
b) Spiritual
He said that through repentance, we can resolve the spiritual. However, we must pay for the physical. This is the law.
But what did the creatures, the birds, the beasts and the animals of the forests do to deserve death? Assuming that Adam sinned and he brought death upon himself (physical AND spiritual), then what did that have to do with the beasts and the animals of the creation? Why do they also die? What was their sin??? Did they also eat of some forbidden fruit?? OK. sounds good. I know this isn't part of the original question, but could you explain more on this? How does Christ's death remove the sentence of death laid upon us? lol.... I guess that answers perfectly point x above. Thanks!!! I know for a fact that everyone (CoC) and even RC would agree with this. The only open items are that you are saying that Man was created with a body that was going to die whether he sinned or not. I think once we clarify this point, you can close this thread.
I'll try and find you the Pope's book where he mentions that.
I think it was the life of repentance.
cheers
I will try to work through these points. Forgive me if I miss anything.
I am not sure that there is any disagreement in regard to the first point your raise from His Holiness' writings.
You report him as saying that there is a physical and a spiritual consequence of Adam's sin. I have found that the Fathers entirely agree with this. The physical consequence is that the Holy Spirit withdrew from Adam and Eve, and with Him the gift of immortality, so that Adam and Eve were left with their own natural mortality - they started to die physically. It was the presence of the Holy Spirit which had prevented the impact of their mortality previously. Had they remained faithful then the Holy Spirit would always have dwelt with them and they would have enjoyed life with God for ever.
The spiritual consequences were just as grave, and with the absence of the Holy Spirit our parents Adam and Eve were left without the possibility of communion with God and were truly already experiencing spiritual death.
The Fathers teach us that Adam and Eve were created mortal, and that all created physical beings are mortal by their nature. The gift of immortality was just that, a gift. Why did God choose to bestow such a gift? Why did he choose to create the universe? We cannot know the depths of the purpose of God but it seems clear that He willed to share the beautiful communion of love between the Trinity with some others, with us.
Perhaps it was also that foreseeing the fall of Adam and Eve he did not wish to give mankind the gift of immortality as something integral to their nature, because then they would remain forever apart from God, but by reserving this as a gift dependent on the presence of the Holy Spirit the incarnation was already in the mind of God as a means of restoring our race. Once Adam had sinned the way of restoration always required that one man die for all men and be raised for all men, just as in Adam all men were doomed to death.
By natural mortality, I mean simply that by nature we are all mortal. St Cyril and St Severus both say that we are born mortal, and that Adam was by nature mortal, but by grace was immortal. If you were born of poor parents, let us say, and I gave you £1,000,000 on the moment of your birth and said that it was a gift which you could keep as long as you obeyed some commandment, then you would be poor by birth, but rich by my gift. If you then broke the commandment that I had set then you would lose all of my gift and would be poor again. But you would not have lost anything that was yours by right, and you would have not become less than you were born, but would be found to be left just as you had been born.
All of the animals, birds and fish are naturally mortal. This is not a matter of sin, it is a matter of their created nature. It is not a punishment. These creatures do not have a God shaped hole in their hearts, and they do not have any immortal soul.
Apart from the incarnation there would be no means of reconciliation with God. St Cyril and St Severus teach us that a man may always choose whether he sins or not. We are not born sinful, we choose to become sinners. But even if a man could live his whole life without sinning, APART FROM THE WORK OF CHRIST, he would still be subject to judgement because he would still be without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and would still be subject to physical and spiritual death. Because of Christ, who died on our behalf, and rose again as the first-fruits of a new humanity, we can be forgiven because a man has born entirely the punishment which was due for our sins, which is not a bit of pain for that sin, and a bit of pain for that sin, but is death itself, both physical and spiritual. Christ has swallowed up death in his own death, by bursting forth from it and bringing our humanity to resurrection life. The penalty for our sin no-longer applies because the penalty can only apply to a living person - you will surely die - but now we have indeed died with Christ that person no longer lives, and the new person we are in Christ is no longer subject to death. Yes, this body will follow Christ into the grave, but will also surely follow him to New Life, eternal and immortal life. And because Christ has born the consequences of our sin we may be forgiven.
Father Peter
So that we can be sure we are both on the same wavelength, let me put this to you in another way.
What His Holiness Pope Shenouda III meant was that man was created in INCORRUPTION (sure, with the potential to be corrupted..) - but he was created immortal. Man chose the path of death; both physical and spiritual.
So, you seem to agree with me, yet you say "The Fathers teach us that Adam and Eve were created mortal". As far as I've understood, our contemporary fathers teach us that they were created IMMORTAL (i.e. if they did not sin, they'd have lived (PHYSICALLY) forever).
what happened was that they sinned and incurred upon themselves both physical and spiritual deaths.
We need to be clear on this point before we move on.
It is the basis of everything. This ENTIRE question depends on this answer: Did God create Adam and Even immortal or mortal? I mean, when He made them, did He plan to make them so that their bodies (PHYSICAL BODIES) die if they do not sin?
So, what I'm saying is (sorry for the repetition) but that BECAUSE of sin, they were dead physically AND spiritually.
If they became dead physically as a result of sin, it would mean that they were created immortal to begin with -, with the potential to become mortal.
Let's just clarify this point 1st before we move on.
Because, look - let's face it: If Christ was born without the SIN Adam, and hence the consequences of that sin, then he was born with the original nature of Adam: Human IMMORTAL.
Adam was created mortal and given the gift of immortality if he obeyed the command - do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
It would be possible and truthful to say that in the beginning Adam was immortal, but to be completely accurate we must say that he was created mortal and given the gift of immortality which was not his by nature.
If you had bumped into Adam and Eve and said, 'Are you immortal?', they could have truthfully answered, 'Yes'. But their immortality was a gift they could lose, not an integral part of their humanity like having two arms and legs. You can be human and not be immortal, indeed we are all fully human and do not yet have immortality.
When they sinned they lost God's favour, God's presence in their lives, AND the gift of immortality. So the consequence of their sin was death - but it was not something that happened to their humanity. They went from being Human+ to being Classic Human, if you understand what I mean. They went from being human with an additional blessing to being just human, which means mortal. Of course they also lost the blessing of God's presence which was far worse and was a true and spiritual death.
They became dead because they lost the gift, not because God caused their death. When Adam said, 'I want to live for myself, not for God', then God said, 'OK, live for yourself', but life without God is death.
Christ assumed our own humanity which is mortal and liable to death. It is the same humanity as Adam and Eve. Their humanity did not change, but they lost the gift of immortality. Christ's was a corruptible humanity, but it was not corrupt. Adam's humanity was corruptible and was corrupted, but sin is not passed on from parent to child, even though the penalty of human life without the gift of immortality is the state into which we were all born. We are born mortal but not sinful.
Father Peter
OK. This is good.
So, now the 2nd question is:
Christ - was he born immortal or mortal?
Or, if you like, and for those who are pedantic: was he born with the gift of immortality or not?
This is now the 2nd question.
If He was born without Adam's original sin, it means He was born without the consequences of that sin (physical and spiritual death).
If he had neither physical death, nor spiritual death, then how could He die UNLESS it was by His own will? Unless He actually offered Himself to die and commanded His Body to die.
Therefore, if He commanded His Body to die, then it was through His Command, not through suffocation. The cause of death is "His Will" - not the cross. Does that make sense?
Christ was born mortal.
He willed to assume humanity in our fallen condition, which means mortal. We are not mortal because we have sinned, but because Adam our fore-father sinned, and lost the gift of immortality for us all. We are all born mortal but not sinful. We choose to be sinful.
When once he had assumed our mortal human state he chose to endure the condition of mortality. Yet he chose to accept death, death on the cross. While we can be sure that his death was not a matter of compulsion, and that he laid down his life voluntarily, this does not mean that he did not allow the agency of the physical stress of being crucified to be the means by which he laid down his life.
While the thieves on the crosses fought to stay alive with every breath, our Lord had no such deperation. He had accomplished all that was necessary, and now was the time for him to allow his body to die.
But his humanity was mortal, even though he was sinless. Even if I had never sinned I would still be mortal since the loss of the gift of the Holy Spirit was accomplished by Adam for us all, and is not accomplished individually and personally over and over again for each of us. We are like people whose great-great-grandfather had been very rich but blew all the money. We can keep saying, 'we should be rich!', but the fact is that our ancestor has already changed our lives for the worse.
Father Peter
The Fathers are clear.
Christ was born mortal.
OK, so it means that Christ could have died of old age? In theory?
according to what you have written, then if he had not been crucified, he'd have died of old age anyway.
In a very real sense the whole of human history included the incarnation, the crucifixion and the resurrection. There is no universe in which that was not built in from the beginning. Just as the creation of mankind as male and female was built into the universe from the beginning because God foresaw what would happen and what He would do.
So I am not sure I can say that Christ would have died of old age. That was not God's purpose and therefore could never have happened. If you mean only was the humanity of Christ naturally mortal, then yes it was naturally mortal.
Father Peter
No, I don't think so, because that sort of assumes that God's purposes in the incarnation were not as He willed them to be worked out.
In a very real sense the whole of human history included the incarnation, the crucifixion and the resurrection. There is no universe in which that was not built in from the beginning. Just as the creation of mankind as male and female was built into the universe from the beginning because God foresaw what would happen and what He would do.
So I am not sure I can say that Christ would have died of old age. That was not God's purpose and therefore could never have happened. If you mean only was the humanity of Christ naturally mortal, then yes it was naturally mortal.
Father Peter
I know it wasn't his purpose to just die of old age; but in theory, if He wasn't crucified, then He could have lived until He died of old age.
My question is trying to understand Christ's Nature as a man: when you say He was mortal, it seems to cause a blockage somewhere in my understanding of everything I've learnt so far.
You agree that Adam became mortal because He sinned (or he lost the gift of immortality because he sinned). We are all born mortal because we inherited the mortal nature of Adam. Christ did not inherit this nature. So why are you saying that he is mortal?
To say that Christ was mortal, it means he was born with the original sin? No?
Just curious... thanks
He did. The whole point of the incarnation was that God himself became a man of Adam's fallen seed and restored us to life. If he had not become human in Adam's fallen state then we would not be saved.
Orthodoxy does not teach original sin in the Roman Catholic or Augustinian sense. We believe that we are born in a state of mortality and isolation from God, but we are not liable for Adam's sin. We are only guilty of our own sins. St Cyril and St Severus are very clear on this.
As I have said before, even if I lived a perfect life it would not make me right with God. I would still be subject to the mortality and isolation from God that was the result of Adam's sin. Just as if my great-great-grandfather spent all the family wealth I would still be poor even though it wasn't me who spent it all.
Our Lord entered this condition. He was mortal, he assumed our fallen humanity, but this is not contaminated with sin, it simply is in a state which was caused by Adam's sin. Sin has no existence, it is the wrong use of the will, therefore it cannot corrupt our nature as it is transmitted from generation to generation, it is our own sin which corrupts us. We do not inherit sin from Adam, and neither did Christ, but we inherit the state of mortality from Adam.
We are born mortal of mortal parents, but not sinful of sinful parents.... St Severus
Father Peter
Thanks
I am not sure why you are saying that Christ did not inherit Adam's mortal nature.
That makes perfect sense now, by the way.
We do not believe that Saint Mary was the immaculate conception anyway. He took humanity from her, not from Eve BEFORE she sinned.
I think this is a really good response the CoC can use in defending the reason/logic behind why we do not believe in the immaculate conception.
I will find relevant passages later today if you wish. But our Orthodox Church is guided by the teachings of St Cyril and St Severus, and I have always found their understanding of the nature of Adam, and his fall, to be entirely consistent with all other Orthodox doctrines.
I am not sure that there is a difference in any case. It may well be that Simeon the New Theologian means 'Adam was created and placed in a state of incorruptibility' which is the case as I have described. But St Cyril and St Severus are very explicit that Adam was created mortal and given the gift of immortality at his creation.
Since St Cyril and St Severus are so clear, I do believe that Simeon the New Theologian is only describing the consequences of this creation with a gift. If the gift was given at the creation of Adam and Eve then they were created in incorruptibility, IN ONE SENSE, but that incorruptiblity did not belong to their nature. Otherwise he would be found to contradict the greatest teachers of Orthodoxy, which is unlikely.
What is most wonderful is that having thrown away the gift of God, God himself became man so that the gift might be restored.
Father Peter
St Cyril and St Severus do not disagree with this. Adam was indeed created mortal but was given the gift of immortality. He had all that he needed to live with God forever. But because he sinned he lost the gift and without the gift was subject to his mortality.
There is no contradiction in Adam being created mortal, being given the gift of incorruptibility at his creation, and being the cause of his exposure to his mortality.
St Cyril and St Severus are too clear and explicit on this for there to be any doubt. I will post some references later but I am getting the lids ready for school at the moment.
Father Peter
I don't think there is a problem with Mixalis - this is no doubt an issue over semantics.
Immortality may be a gift, but life in itself is also a gift of which we are infinitely undeserving.