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Amen Amen Amen, We preach Your death O Lord...

MarieanneMarieanne
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
When it gets to the part... This is the most common way I heard it....

1. We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and supplicate You

But I heard it in other ways also (in different churches, in different states etc):

2. We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and supplicate to You

3. We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and supplicate before You

Which way is right?

The word supplicate is a verb. In my opinion, option 3 is the most correct.


Comments

  • Marmoura99Marmoura99
    Hi! In our church, we say "We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and entreat You, O our God," which I guess is closest to number 1.

    I'm not sure but, in my opinion, they all carry the same meaning and so they're all correct!


    God Bless.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    #2 and #3 don't sound correct in English.

    Supplicate is like the verb to ask. We ask or supplicate someone, we don't ask before someone, or ask to someone. We entreat you is also good, just as we entreat before you or entreat to you would be incorrect English.

    God bless

    Father Peter
  • MarieanneMarieanne
    Perfect! Thanks :)

  • KiroliesKirolies
    In my church we say it:

    We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and we worship you.
  • deaconmark123deaconmark123
    the new english is sooooooooo bad i dont like it at all. The old english is the way we grew up in and thats the way we learned it.(and im not talking about the thee thy thouest enlglish) They should stop adding words that nobody can understand or even pronounce. like for example if any one has the "new black Kholagy" the one with the three crosses on the back, metal tips on the front cover, and its pretty thick. if you have it you notice ALOT of the english is changed. like the deacon response [coptic]Amyn ic Patyr[/coptic] in english these are the exact words....


    Amen
        One is the holy Father. One is the holy son. One is the Holy Spirit. Amen. Blessed be the Lord God Forever. Amen.

        Praise the lord all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples! For His mercy has been strengthened toward us; and the truth of the Lord Abides Forever.Amen. Alleluia.

    Now this one probably bothers me the most, and the thanks giving prayer [coptic]Twbh hina[/coptic]. what ever happened to the original version of Amen Icpateer? why cant they just leave the english how it used to be and make things better for everyone, because im sure it would be alot easier to memorize and learn, rather than to change it every time you see a nice word in the thesaurus
  • davidawad94davidawad94
    [quote author=deaconmark123 link=topic=8826.msg110633#msg110633 date=1266247845]
    the new english is sooooooooo bad i dont like it at all. The old english is the way we grew up in and thats the way we learned it.(and im not talking about the thee thy thouest enlglish) They should stop adding words that nobody can understand or even pronounce. like for example if any one has the "new black Kholagy" the one with the three crosses on the back, metal tips on the front cover, and its pretty thick. if you have it you notice ALOT of the english is changed. like the deacon response [coptic]Amyn ic Patyr[/coptic] in english these are the exact words....


    Amen
        One is the holy Father. One is the holy son. One is the Holy Spirit. Amen. Blessed be the Lord God Forever. Amen.

        Praise the lord all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples! For His mercy has been strengthened toward us; and the truth of the Lord Abides Forever.Amen. Alleluia.

    Now this one probably bothers me the most, and the thanks giving prayer [coptic]Twbh hina[/coptic]. what ever happened to the original version of Amen Icpateer? why cant they just leave the english how it used to be and make things better for everyone, because im sure it would be alot easier to memorize and learn, rather than to change it every time you see a nice word in the thesaurus


    i know this bothers me soooo much. no one talks like that and everyone already knows it. its like changing "in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit one God amen." you cant. the translation is already established in everyone's mind and it should stay like that.

    [quote author=Adonijah link=topic=8826.msg110625#msg110625 date=1266226941]
    When it gets to the part... This is the most common way I heard it....

    1. We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and supplicate You

    But I heard it in other ways also (in different churches, in different states etc):

    2. We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and supplicate to You

    3. We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and supplicate before You

    Which way is right?

    The word supplicate is a verb. In my opinion, option 3 is the most correct.



    my church says it like this:
    Amen Amen Amen Your death o Lord we do preach. Your Holy Ressurection and Ascension we confess. We Prasise, We Bless You, We Thank You O lord. And We supplicate you O our God.

    This is the one of the many hymns that each church has their own versions of singing and saying it. I go to East Brunswick church. If you go to Bergen or Westside or even Holmedel church, it is sung differently.  I remember the church tried creating a universal one but not many priests enforced it unfortunately. Atleast we  only have to deal with this for English...
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    The text that must be used is the text of the Southern diocese liturgy book.

    There was a CD done many years ago when the book was published that had the recording of the responses constructed on the Coptic way. HH so that must be followed.

  • the_leastthe_least
    I would love to get a hold of that CD
  • Abounasarecool
    In my church we say:
    amen amen amen your death o lord we proclaim
    your holy resurrection and ascension into the heavens we confess
    we praise you we bless you we thank you o lord
    and we entreat you o our God
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=the_least link=topic=8826.msg110642#msg110642 date=1266258648]
    I would love to get a hold of that CD


    all tracks can be found here:
    http://seraphimchorus.com/english_resp.html
  • deaconmark123deaconmark123
    Who makes these books? i really want to email them and tell them i cant stand this new english, does anyone have an email address i can email because its hard to follow the liturgy when you cant even understand half the words......SOME OF THE WORDS ABOUNA CANT EVEN PRONOUNCE.....
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=deaconmark123 link=topic=8826.msg110650#msg110650 date=1266270630]
    Who makes these books? i really want to email them and tell them i cant stand this new english, does anyone have an email address i can email because its hard to follow the liturgy when you cant even understand half the words......SOME OF THE WORDS ABOUNA CANT EVEN PRONOUNCE.....


    email HG Bishop Youssef on suscopts.org.....  :)
    his grace will be happy to explain anything to you.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Btw, if this about the word of saint Gregory's liturgy, don't try....i think they did their best to have a proper translation that keeps God's divinity and portrait it to the people in a good way. 
  • Abounasarecool
    haha yes thats true HG bishop youssef will =]
  • MarieanneMarieanne
    [quote author=deaconmark123 link=topic=8826.msg110633#msg110633 date=1266247845]
    the new english is sooooooooo bad i dont like it at all. The old english is the way we grew up in and thats the way we learned it.(and im not talking about the thee thy thouest enlglish) They should stop adding words that nobody can understand or even pronounce. like for example if any one has the "new black Kholagy" the one with the three crosses on the back, metal tips on the front cover, and its pretty thick. if you have it you notice ALOT of the english is changed. like the deacon response [coptic]Amyn ic Patyr[/coptic] in english these are the exact words....


    Amen
        One is the holy Father. One is the holy son. One is the Holy Spirit. Amen. Blessed be the Lord God Forever. Amen.

        Praise the lord all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples! For His mercy has been strengthened toward us; and the truth of the Lord Abides Forever.Amen. Alleluia.

    Now this one probably bothers me the most, and the thanks giving prayer [coptic]Twbh hina[/coptic]. what ever happened to the original version of Amen Icpateer? why cant they just leave the english how it used to be and make things better for everyone, because im sure it would be alot easier to memorize and learn, rather than to change it every time you see a nice word in the thesaurus


    I agree! Simple English is the go. Having to check up words in the dictionary to know what I am actually saying, and keeping in mind that I have a bachelor's degree makes me feel sorry for all the children the most who might have no idea what they are saying (or spell what they are saying), just saying big words, and even worse might not know how to decipher the meaning of it all because of all these harder words in use. Think of the children! No wonder in my church they don't look like they are attending, its because they dont understand! Its even more apparent with some deacon responses, some of the younger deacons mispronounce words which makes me suspicious of how much they understand what they are saying, and keeping in mind that they are the next generation of Orthodox people that will be responsible for the Orthodox church in the near future after we're gone.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Adonijah link=topic=8826.msg110657#msg110657 date=1266276253]
    [quote author=deaconmark123 link=topic=8826.msg110633#msg110633 date=1266247845]
    the new english is sooooooooo bad i dont like it at all. The old english is the way we grew up in and thats the way we learned it.(and im not talking about the thee thy thouest enlglish) They should stop adding words that nobody can understand or even pronounce. like for example if any one has the "new black Kholagy" the one with the three crosses on the back, metal tips on the front cover, and its pretty thick. if you have it you notice ALOT of the english is changed. like the deacon response [coptic]Amyn ic Patyr[/coptic] in english these are the exact words....


    Amen
        One is the holy Father. One is the holy son. One is the Holy Spirit. Amen. Blessed be the Lord God Forever. Amen.

        Praise the lord all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples! For His mercy has been strengthened toward us; and the truth of the Lord Abides Forever.Amen. Alleluia.

    Now this one probably bothers me the most, and the thanks giving prayer [coptic]Twbh hina[/coptic]. what ever happened to the original version of Amen Icpateer? why cant they just leave the english how it used to be and make things better for everyone, because im sure it would be alot easier to memorize and learn, rather than to change it every time you see a nice word in the thesaurus


    I agree! Simple English is the go. Having to check up words in the dictionary to know what I am actually saying, and keeping in mind that I have a bachelor's degree makes me feel sorry for all the children the most who might have no idea what they are saying (or spell what they are saying), just saying big words, and even worse might not know how to decipher the meaning of it all because of all these harder words in use. Think of the children! No wonder in my church they don't look like they are attending, its because they dont understand! Its even more apparent with some deacon responses, some of the younger deacons mispronounce words which makes me suspicious of how much they understand what they are saying, and keeping in mind that they are the next generation of Orthodox people that will be responsible for the Orthodox church in the near future after we're gone.

    how about giving example of what's in the book.

    the part of Eeis Pateer is only done this way to be consistent with the Bible translation rather than the coptic translations of which the first translation was based on.
  • deaconmark123deaconmark123
    well now that i think of it its not really the words in the text, its more of the WORDING. Now that i think about it, its mostly how they changed words around, and most people memorized them the old way and trying to follow along or read along with the new book makes it harder to follow.

    Ex: after the commemoration of the saints when they sing osperein.

    old way: As it was, so shall its be, from generation, to generation, and unto the ages of ages amen.

    New way: As it was and is, it shall also be unto generations of generations and unto all the ages of the ages amen......
    New way2: as it was and shall it be , it is from generation to generation and all the ages of the ages. amen.....

    Clearly this is much different and harder to sing..... i saw on CYC a liturgy from florida.....and the deacon that was leading was using this english, and i am in no way trying to make fun of him because he did it correct and it sounded heavenly. But when he sang NEW WAY2 it sounded as if he messed up and had to stretch the tune to make the words fit, or even simpler it sounded like he messed up and was trying to fix it quick. if they really wanted to update the book they should have just left the wording and added the new hymns and the new explanations.

    ALSO: the doxologies almost all of them in english are no where near the memorized ways of saying them. and I as an english youth find this a tad irritating because its hard to change what you know, or in other words "teach an old dog new tricks"
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    From the point of view of someone who is English and loves the English language, version #1 sounds by far the best.

    Father Peter
  • deaconmark123deaconmark123
    [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8826.msg110850#msg110850 date=1266438394]
    From the point of view of someone who is English and loves the English language, version #1 sounds by far the best.

    Father Peter



    which way the New way 1? or the old way?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Actually that the ONLY response that we had to change to make sense and to sound good. We say: As it was and shall be, from generation to generation, and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen. (http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/340)

    I think they tend to be very literal in translation. I personally don't mind that EXCEPT when it interferes with chanting.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I prefer the one you have called the old way.

    Father Peter
  • LondonCoptLondonCopt
    All this talk of linguistics is very interesting. HG Anba Angaelos recently formed a committee in the UK to standardise the English responses and the wording of the liturgy between all the churches in the UK. The translation has been done, but not all of the churches have chosen to adopt the "new English", which I think is a shame. I think his goal is that any member of any church can go to another church and pray in the same way as they would in their own church, which I really respect and would like to see happen as well. Now I'm not sure how big a problem this is in the USA having only prayed in a couple of churches there, but the lack of standardisation in the UK churches makes it very difficult when members of different congregations gather in one place to pray (for example, youth conferences).

    The task of translation is one that we should leave to those who have been graced with such gifts, but it is important that it is done accurately to correctly reflect the focus of our prayer. Yes some children may not understand some of the more complex vocabulary, but the burden then falls on us to educate these children. And teach them we should! Yes it's a tad irritating to have to learn a "new English", but should we not always be striving to learn God's teachings anyway? We can't make a compromise in these cases just because it's the easier thing to do. There is a great blessing in always striving to learn more for the sake of glorifying God and it would be a great shame to miss out on these blessings.

    Matthew
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I guess that the aims of any translation should be accuracy, liturgical fluency, and very high quality use of the language in question. The translation should be one that native people in the country can be pleased to use.

    Father Peter
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    The issue is not only the translation but the actual rendition of the hymn. From one church to another you will not find the majority chanting the same. Some will chant the English based on how it is done in arabic, while others do it from Coptic tune directly. Also the breaks for each way are different, so not only is the translation an issue but how the text is actually rendered as well. There needs to be unity in both aspects of this. In Egypt in every single church you will here this chanted the same in Arabic no matter where you go. Same with Coptic. So I think not only should there be unity in the seperate dioceses but also world wide for those who speak English
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    ALso have to add a factor.....that is acceptance of the people, more specifically the deacons leading the church. This is in issue in the churches outside the Southern Diocese and the LA Diocese.

    I think, and i am sorry to say, it's just pride. As jydeacon said, translating is not a problem anymore. People can translate from arabic to english or even straight from coptic. Actually, i remember one person was really mad because his friend learned coptic in a class or two in his uni. And he's like "almost all the coptic text we have in books is wrong."
    So if you have people who still dare the coptic text we have, that is the original, you'd think they'll stop at a person's translated version?!
  • deaconmark123deaconmark123
    [quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=8826.msg110899#msg110899 date=1266492362]
    All this talk of linguistics is very interesting. HG Anba Angaelos recently formed a committee in the UK to standardise the English responses and the wording of the liturgy between all the churches in the UK. The translation has been done, but not all of the churches have chosen to adopt the "new English", which I think is a shame. I think his goal is that any member of any church can go to another church and pray in the same way as they would in their own church, which I really respect and would like to see happen as well. Now I'm not sure how big a problem this is in the USA having only prayed in a couple of churches there, but the lack of standardisation in the UK churches makes it very difficult when members of different congregations gather in one place to pray (for example, youth conferences).

    The task of translation is one that we should leave to those who have been graced with such gifts, but it is important that it is done accurately to correctly reflect the focus of our prayer. Yes some children may not understand some of the more complex vocabulary, but the burden then falls on us to educate these children. And teach them we should! Yes it's a tad irritating to have to learn a "new English", but should we not always be striving to learn God's teachings anyway? We can't make a compromise in these cases just because it's the easier thing to do. There is a great blessing in always striving to learn more for the sake of glorifying God and it would be a great shame to miss out on these blessings.

    Matthew
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=8826.msg110904#msg110904 date=1266501051]
    The issue is not only the translation but the actual rendition of the hymn. From one church to another you will not find the majority chanting the same. Some will chant the English based on how it is done in arabic, while others do it from Coptic tune directly. Also the breaks for each way are different, so not only is the translation an issue but how the text is actually rendered as well. There needs to be unity in both aspects of this. In Egypt in every single church you will here this chanted the same in Arabic no matter where you go. Same with Coptic. So I think not only should there be unity in the seperate dioceses but also world wide for those who speak English



    Agreed, The great cantor Gad Lewis said "who am i to change the coptic hymns?" (meaning the tune and hazats) i think it should be the same universally and it should be the way that we all know "the old way"
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Don't confuse the original Coptic that cantor Gad is talking about with the english we are talking about.
  • LondonCoptLondonCopt
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=8826.msg110904#msg110904 date=1266501051]
    The issue is not only the translation but the actual rendition of the hymn. From one church to another you will not find the majority chanting the same. Some will chant the English based on how it is done in arabic, while others do it from Coptic tune directly. Also the breaks for each way are different, so not only is the translation an issue but how the text is actually rendered as well. There needs to be unity in both aspects of this. In Egypt in every single church you will here this chanted the same in Arabic no matter where you go. Same with Coptic. So I think not only should there be unity in the seperate dioceses but also world wide for those who speak English


    I should have said, the chanting of the "new English" in the UK churches is based exactly on the Coptic rather than the Arabic. It does take some getting used to, but I see no reason why everyone can't learn.

    Matthew
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