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Theology and Church History for a beginner anyone?

joegjoeg
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hey people  :D

Ok, so I've just picked up "The Nature of Christ" by H.H. Pope Shenouda III, and have suddenly become really interested in theology and Church history. Well not really suddenly - I've always been interested, but haven't really done much about it. So, I'm posting this so that if any of you guys know any good introductory books to read on Orthodox Theology and/or Church History to please share them! I'm in no way an educated in theology and Church history beyond the mere basics i.e. I'm aware that we only accept the first 3 ecumenical councils (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus) and have vague ideas of the topics on debate (Nicaea - Arianism, Constantinople - Arianism, Macedonianism, Ephesus - Nestorianism) and know very, very superficially about the Monophysite/Miaphysite/Dyophysite dispute that caused us to reject the Council of Chalcedon. I have done negligible reading on theology or Church History, an so am really deploring my ignorance  ;D

So, which works/books of which Church Fathers would you recommend for me as a beginner? Just so you know my circumstances, I'm 17 years old in my last year of school, and am studying medicine in September. Obviously my main focus is getting my grades for getting to medical school, but I would like to "study" (in the loosest sense, non-academically) rather than just casually read.

Is there any hope for me? Anyone got any suggestions? ;D

Comments

  • LondonCoptLondonCopt
    Hmm...I seem to be targetting all of your threads on here Joe!

    "On the Incarnation" by St Athanasius is a definite must for theology and Christology if you haven't taken a look at it already. As for church history, you could take a look at Fr Tadross Yacoub Malaty's book "An Introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Church", although I think you might find it a bit superficial for what you're looking for...I'm not sure.

    Take a look at those and if they aren't quite what you're looking for, I'll take a look at some other things that I have for you

    Every blessing,
    Matthew
  • mabsootamabsoota
    hee hee, my favourite subjects for the last 3-4 years.
    try to only study for 1 - 2 hours at a time so it doesn't become too addictive and u have time for other things  ;)
    the best fathers to read are any mentioned in our absolution at the beginning of the liturgy (severus, john chrysostom etc) and a good reference is

    http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/

    note it contains several 'fathers' who were involved in heresy at some point eg tertullian and origen.

    i recently found this

    http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com

    which is a catholic site. they have a lot of info on early fathers who we have in common as well as later roman catholic writers.

    to read more about inter-orthodox dialogue go here:

    http://www.britishorthodox.org/2church.php

    please note the agreement of 1990 in geneva has united a lot of what was broken in 451 at chalcedon.
    in fact anything from the british orthodox website is very valuable, i strongly recommend it. also they are part of the coptic church. they have some excellent scholars, whose level of understanding of these things i would not get anywhere close to even if i gave up my day job and studied till i was 80.

    please keep me posted so we can share our findings  :)
  • mabsootamabsoota
    hi, matthew  :)
    any idea where we can get this book by athanasius?

    this is a great link previously posted by father peter about his psalms commentary

    http://www.athanasius.com/psalms/aletterm.htm

    please keep us posted with any more ideas  :)
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    Best books to look for are from direct fathers if you can find them. On the Incarnation is great, and to add to what matt said, 2000 years of Coptic History is a good book as well as the books called the School of Alexandria before and after/during Origen. There are a plethora of books available but those are the ones that come to mind of the top of my head, if I remember others I will post them.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    erm is that a website or do you mean i have to pop up to heaven and order directly from each church father?  ???
    ;)
  • joegjoeg
    Haha thanks for all the responses and links guys! I looked very briefly at On the Incarnation, but will tackle it ASAP!

    Found a great site: http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts

    Contains a tonne of works by the Father in English, all for free  :) Plenty of heretics, but I plan on sticking to St. Cyril and St. Athanasius for now

    Can't wait to get stuck in! (yep, I will become addicted mabsoota ;))  8)

    pray for me

    joe
  • joegjoeg
    And yeah definetely, as I read passage by passage, I'll post my thoughts and questions, and maybe we can get a good old fashioned edifying debate for us all to benefit  :D

    pray for me

    joe
  • joegjoeg
    Ok, I'm currently writing up my notes on "The Nature of Christ" by H.H. There are just a few terms that are technical that I want to clarify if thats ok:

    Hypostasis - I understand this to mean "person"? So one says that there are 3 hypostases/persons/personae to the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Is that right?

    Ousia - So ousia means "essence", i.e. what a certain thing is composed of, the nature of its matter. So Arianism taught that the Son and Father were not homoousian (they were not of the same essence), whereas the correct Orthodox faith is that all 3 Hypostases of the Trinity are homoousian? Or am I talking nonsense?  :-\

    Monophysite - One nature. Used to describe Eutyches' heresy.

    Miaphysite - what our Orthodox Christological belief is. Refers to the hypostatic union of the Divine and Human natures of Christ without seperation, confusion or alteration.

    Dyophysitism - Two natures. An EO belief (and Catholic?) belief. Although they refer to two natures, I think they also believe in the hypostatic union of the Divinity and Humanity of Christ?

    Can someone correct any mistakes please? Thanks  :)

    pray for me

    joe
  • LondonCoptLondonCopt

    Hypostasis - I understand this to mean "person"? So one says that there are 3 hypostases/persons/personae to the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Is that right?

    Hypostasis literally means "what lies beneath", think of it in terms of basis or foundation. It's taken in theology to mean "being", so yes you're right.

    Ousia - So ousia means "essence", i.e. what a certain thing is composed of, the nature of its matter. So Arianism taught that the Son and Father were not homoousian (they were not of the same essence), whereas the correct Orthodox faith is that all 3 Hypostases of the Trinity are homoousian? Or am I talking nonsense?

     

    Arianism, I believe, taught heteroousia; that the Father and Son are of a different essence to one another. Homoiousia is the doctrine that they are of a similar essence and homoousia that they are the same essence. For the sake of simplicity, heteroousia and homoiousia are grouped together, so you'll often read that Arius taught homoiousia. We rarely differentiate the two because they both contradict the doctrine that the Father and Son are of the same essence.
    So yes, you're right in you're statement. Notice how in the creed we say that the Son is "of one essence" or "consubstantial" with the father.

    Monophysite - One nature. Used to describe Eutyches' heresy.

    Miaphysite - what our Orthodox Christological belief is. Refers to the hypostatic union of the Divine and Human natures of Christ without seperation, confusion or alteration.

    Dyophysitism - Two natures. An EO belief (and Catholic?) belief. Although they refer to two natures, I think they also believe in the hypostatic union of the Divinity and Humanity of Christ?

    This is where things become confusing in terms of history and terminology, but I think your definitions make a good summary.
    Monophysite is the belief that one nature was consumed by the other (I think Eutyches used the example of salt dissolving in water) to make a third entirely new nature. This was rejected.

    Dyophysitism refers to two natures existing in one person. This is a term which we should be cautious to use - Nestorious himself was labelled as a dyophysite, hence the ambiguity in terminology. The difference is, Nestorius held that the two natures were separate in Christ, whereas the Catholic Church holds that the two natures are united. They believe His humanity and divinity to be united just as we do, but due to various happenings at the Council of Chalcedon, we're left with different terminologies.

    Miaphysite is how we (the Oriental Orthodox churches) describe our position and it's exactly as you said. Because of our terminology, we've historically been labelled as monophysite - which isn't true at all. As I'm sure you know, steps have been taken in recent history to rectify all these misunderstandings between the different denominations - our beliefs are much more consistent with one another than you might think!

    Hope these answer your questions!
    Matthew
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=9076.msg112850#msg112850 date=1270574860]
    Hey people  :D

    Ok, so I've just picked up "The Nature of Christ" by H.H. Pope Shenouda III, and have suddenly become really interested in theology and Church history. Well not really suddenly - I've always been interested, but haven't really done much about it. So, I'm posting this so that if any of you guys know any good introductory books to read on Orthodox Theology and/or Church History to please share them! I'm in no way an educated in theology and Church history beyond the mere basics i.e. I'm aware that we only accept the first 3 ecumenical councils (Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus) and have vague ideas of the topics on debate (Nicaea - Arianism, Constantinople - Arianism, Macedonianism, Ephesus - Nestorianism) and know very, very superficially about the Monophysite/Miaphysite/Dyophysite dispute that caused us to reject the Council of Chalcedon. I have done negligible reading on theology or Church History, an so am really deploring my ignorance  ;D

    So, which works/books of which Church Fathers would you recommend for me as a beginner? Just so you know my circumstances, I'm 17 years old in my last year of school, and am studying medicine in September. Obviously my main focus is getting my grades for getting to medical school, but I would like to "study" (in the loosest sense, non-academically) rather than just casually read.

    Is there any hope for me? Anyone got any suggestions? ;D


    Hi,

    The Nature of Christ is a brilliant book. I would recommend the works of St. Basic the Great also.

    This site is quite good, (simply because of the way it is structured) http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library.html --> its a catholic site, but they have a LOT of Orthodox Patriarchs in there and Theologians.

    I would recommend the works of Fr. Tadros Malaty, but I think he would be more appropriate for anyone doing a degree in Theology rather than just someone who is interested in Theology for sake of learning for personal benefit.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    matthew, i agree. also nestorians (the assyrian church of the east) believe that only the human nature of Christ was crucified, the divine nature somehow stayed out of it. no other Christians groups believe this (ie catholic, protestant, us).
    what i would like to know is how to convince a nestorian he is wrong? i recently found out a friend of mine, who i thought was orthodox, is nestorian. he doesn't think the distinctions are very important. i think it's very important, anyone got any good links for orthodox work responding to this?

    by the way, joe (or anyone) i hope u realise that the EO and OO had an agreed statement on Christology (i.e. describing the natures of Christ) in 1990, so we agree that basically miaphysites and dyophysites say the same thing.

    btw (2)! here is the list of fathers u should read 1st (from st basil's liturgy)
    Saint Severus,
    our teacher Dioscorus,
    Saint Athanasius the Apostolic,
    Saint Peter the priest- martyr and the high priest,
    Saint John Chrysostom,
    Saint Cyril,
    Saint Basil, and
    Saint Gregory

    i expect you have enough reading for now...
    :)
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=9076.msg113036#msg113036 date=1270830268]
    This is where things become confusing in terms of history and terminology, but I think your definitions make a good summary.
    Monophysite is the belief that one nature was consumed by the other (I think Eutyches used the example of salt dissolving in water) to make a third entirely new nature. This was rejected.

    Yeah, the analogy used was "a drop of vinegar in the ocean"; that Christ's human nature was incomplete in contrast to his divine nature.

    Dyophysitism refers to two natures existing in one person. This is a term which we should be cautious to use - Nestorious himself was labelled as a dyophysite, hence the ambiguity in terminology. The difference is, Nestorius held that the two natures were separate in Christ, whereas the Catholic Church holds that the two natures are united. They believe His humanity and divinity to be united just as we do, but due to various happenings at the Council of Chalcedon, we're left with different terminologies.

    This is also why I wanted to have a look at the history side of things - as I understand it was Emperor Marcanius who wanted a say in the affairs of the Church (which St. Dioscoros was against) that caused some of the issues. I was given a good link yesterday (http://stnoufer.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/chalcedon-the-treachery-that-split-the-christian-world/) by jydeacon which I found very useful  :D

    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9076.msg113038#msg113038 date=1270832354]
    Hi,

    The Nature of Christ is a brilliant book. I would recommend the works of St. Basic the Great also.

    This site is quite good, (simply because of the way it is structured) http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library.html --> its a catholic site, but they have a LOT of Orthodox Patriarchs in there and Theologians.

    I would recommend the works of Fr. Tadros Malaty, but I think he would be more appropriate for anyone doing a degree in Theology rather than just someone who is interested in Theology for sake of learning for personal benefit.

    Thanks for the link! And I have read a couple of books by Fr. Tadros that I really enjoyed (even though I was a bit too young to appreciate them). I might dig them out and get stuck into them at some point.  :)

    [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9076.msg113045#msg113045 date=1270844500]
    matthew, i agree. also nestorians (the assyrian church of the east) believe that only the human nature of Christ was crucified, the divine nature somehow stayed out of it. no other Christians groups believe this (ie catholic, protestant, us).
    what i would like to know is how to convince a nestorian he is wrong? i recently found out a friend of mine, who i thought was orthodox, is nestorian. he doesn't think the distinctions are very important. i think it's very important, anyone got any good links for orthodox work responding to this?

    Why not go back to the source of expertise, the Pillar of the Faith who fought it? Go on http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts and search "Cyril". St. cyril wrote 3 epistles to Nestorius explaining to him the error of his ways. Check em out  :)

    by the way, joe (or anyone) i hope u realise that the EO and OO had an agreed statement on Christology (i.e. describing the natures of Christ) in 1990, so we agree that basically miaphysites and dyophysites say the same thing.

    Yeah. Although we are yet to unite - as I understand it there are other issues to contend with e.g. saints who were anathemized, the content of the rest of the seven ecumenical councils etc. (excluding any political controversies of course).

    btw (2)! here is the list of fathers u should read 1st (from st basil's liturgy)
    Saint Severus,
    our teacher Dioscorus,
    Saint Athanasius the Apostolic,
    Saint Peter the priest- martyr and the high priest,
    Saint John Chrysostom,
    Saint Cyril,
    Saint Basil, and
    Saint Gregory

    i expect you have enough reading for now...
    :)

    Haha, indeed I do!  ;D

    pray for me

    joe
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