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Forgiveness and Justice
Pope Benedict of the Catholic Church talked about the whole sex scandal and he mentioned this "Forgiveness cannot substitute justice"...Do you think this is true and please explain to me why or why not with Bible references
Comments
He is speaking about the particular context of the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church and he is saying that it is not enough for a priest, or some other abuser, to say sorry. There is a requirement that justice be done as well. He is not speaking about eternal forgiveness and divine justice, but about the rule of law.
There are those brave Christians we sometimes see on TV who forgive the murderer of their child, or some such situation. This is wonderful, but the murderer still faces the temporal consequences of his actions, and must be brought to justice.
In the context of the Catholic situation, someone who has abused children and young people for decades cannot simply say 'sorry'. Just as Zacchaeus could not simply say, 'Look I am different'. He had to make amends for what he had done, and so must the criminal. This is how the Church responds to those who commit grave sins. A priest may be deposed or excommunicated for instance, even if his sins are forgiven, because our actions have consequences.
If I drink to excess every day then I will feel the physical consequences, and even if I repent of drunkeness I may not see a complete restoration of health, indeed I might still die of an alcohol related disease. We must bear the consequences of our actions. And even when we are forgiven by God and by others it is not an easy matter at all to get ourselves, and our relationships, and our situation back to where we were. Sometimes it is never possible. Even though we are forgiven.
We can imagine that Adam and Eve were sorry as soon as they realised before God what they had done. But it was too late. Their actions had consequences, grave consequences. And even though they were forgiven things could not be put back the way they were.
Likewise if I steal a car and get caught it would change my life, it would change your life. Suddenly you would no longer be trusted. You would lose certain privileges and opportunities for service. You would have brought dishonour on the Church. And possibly you would have to spend time in prison - even though you or I were granted absolution. And when we came out of prison, or through the courts, we could not go back to where we were. Not only had we changed, but our situation would have changed, and all the relationships we had with others would have changed.
This is, I think, what Pope Benedict means. It is not healthy or just that people who have been long term abusers should simply be allowed to repent and carry on as if nothing had happened - because repentance requires us facing up to the consequences of our actions.
Father Peter
For example, if someone falsely accuses me of murder, and I spend 50 years in prison because he bore false witness, is it reasonable to ask God for justice? or does that mean you haven't forgiven??
Thanks
Father Peter
I don't think it is wrong but a spiritual man would perhaps seek to learn the lesson of Abouna Youstos. It also matters a little whether the person has dependents or some ministry in the Church. So perhaps our prayers should be that of our Lord in such a case - if it is possible, yet not my will but thine be done. And we can remember when the Apostles were in gaol they praised God rather than prayed for their release.
Father Peter
So seeking justice and praying for justice isn't wrong?
What is the story with abouna Youstos? what happened?
He responded to every situation with the words 'Thanks be to God'.
It seems to me that such a response is the best, but it is not one that we can always find the strength to offer. Nor is it always the right response when others have been harmed. To ask that God will grant us his justice in a situation also requires us to be ready to be judged by God for our own failings, however small we might think they are.
Father Peter
http://stmarycoptic.com/movies1.htm
in arabic with english subtitles
awesome :)
Have you not watched the short film about him?
He responded to every situation with the words 'Thanks be to God'.
It seems to me that such a response is the best, but it is not one that we can always find the strength to offer. Nor is it always the right response when others have been harmed. To ask that God will grant us his justice in a situation also requires us to be ready to be judged by God for our own failings, however small we might think they are.
Father Peter
So someone can falsly accuse me of something I havent done, I could spend 20 years in jail for it, yet if I ask for justice, God will judge me also as someone that may have lusted ONCE in his heart?
The catholics have this thing called purgatory for situations like this, and we have the other extreme (so it seems).
Whether we pray for justice or not, is not important.
What about God? He himself, is eternally Just. How does He judge such situations? If we want justice , or if we prefer to forgive and be forgiven for the smallest sins of our heart, How does God treat us?? Surely nothing is free? Surely we are all accountable for our acts. How does that work given that we do not have purgatory. We only have heaven or hell. There is no purgatory in Orthodox Christianity.
Adam took one bite of an apple. I am not sure why you think that because we do something we think is small we are better than someone who does something we think is bad.
We are the same. We are all deserving of death and punishment. Sin is not a list of things we add up and say, I have 3 demerits, he has 27, so I am better than him, and the pass mark to heaven is 15 so I am OK.
To sin once is to turn ourselves away from God, indeed to be repelled from God like anti-matter and matter. We don't sin a little bit. We are either holy or we are sinful.
Now since we are all sinful we can do no more than seek the mercy and grace of God who loves us. Anything else is to be like the Pharisee...
I thank you God that I am not like these other men who are terrible sinners.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
The wages of sin is death.
There is none righteous not even one.
The scriptures are very clear, forgive us our sins as we forgive others. God will do exactly what we pray for. He will look at the way we forgive others and that is how he will deal with our sins.
If we insist on holding onto the sins of others, then we will find that our own sins are being dragged along behind us like a heavy chain.
This is not easy. But God gives the grace we need. There are many examples of saints who preferred to be put in prison for things like sleeping with a young girl, rather than defend themselves. This is not a rule. The lives of the saints should not be copied in that way.
But our Lord has indeed already given us the example to follow, he had done nothing, indeed he had done everything good and truly blessed those who cursed him by creating them and maintaining them in life and health. Yet he did not defend himself.
On the other hand, St Paul did use the opportunity given him to defend his actions, and to insist that he had not been causing a riot in the temple. Yet we know that when in prison he did not constantly go on about how it was unfair, but whether in bonds or free, he considered himself always the servant of Christ.
To go from zero to hero is not normally possible. But we can certainly develop a looser attachment to the things of this life and this world which are passing away. None of it matters in the end, if it is not an expression of love and of obedience. Brother Lawrence washed the dishes and was considered a fool by the intelligent members of his monastic community, but he did not consider it an injustice. He found God in the service of the sink, and the nobles and important people of the area all came to him for spiritual advice.
If you have only ever sinned once then it is commendable. But I know that I sin every day, even after receiving our Lord in the communion of his precious Body and Blood. I cannot speak for you, but for myself, I am aware that every day I am deserving of punishment yet I receive only chastisement for my healing and salvation. I have been wronged many times. I also have cause to be as bitter and resentful as any other person who has suffered injustice. But I know that I deserve a greater punishment than the ones who have hurt me because I have received so much from the loving hands of God, and yet still I sin against him.
I wish I could learn to say in all circumstances 'Thanks be to God'. I am trying. May the prayers of Abouna Youstos support me. There is a great freedom, even in the midst of pain, to be able to find God in the situation. It is not easy, but it is the only way to be free from self-pity, and from bitterness.
This is not an instruction to you. I do not know you yet. But it is my own experience. Many of our Fathers did indeed spend long periods in prison and were even killed in their exiles and imprisonments. But they were always joyful and praising God. St Dioscorus even engaged in evangelism, St Timothy continued his pastoral ministry, St Severus kept the Orthodox Church together in the face of imperial persecution, St Athanasius was not made bitter by his false imprisonment.
I would not be so sure that there is not some aspect of purgatory in Orthodoxy. A great many fathers speak of a purgative experience after death. Purgatory, properly understood in the Catholic scheme of things, is not a way of becoming saved after death. It is the place where the rust and decay which we have allowed to become ingrained in our hearts and souls is burnt away. In technical terms, it is the place where the temporal debt due to justice is fulfilled - which comes back to your first point. This is how indulgences were supposed to work, by helping a person clean themselves up this side of death rather than the other side. There are plenty of scriptural passages that talk of such a refining fire, as do the Fathers. As usual, the Orthodox do not like to go beyond what is clear, so we have not developed a place called purgatory, but the idea is quite widespread in Orthodoxy, and even in serious evangelicalism. Most people have some sense that just being forgiven is not the same as being holy, and if we are not holy then we need some cleansing, by spiritual fire.
Father Peter
So would you agree with purgatory? (in the Catholic context)?
For me, I know many orthodox christians who simply say "I don't know".
But concerning my original point: whether we ask for justice, or whether we just forgive and forget; God Himself cannot let something pass by "free of charge". Is it through purgatory that un-paid temporal debts are to be paid, or is there another method? For example: if I sin badly, does God punish me through my children?
I know that in the OT, this seemed to the case where God told Cain that Abel's blood is crying out, and God punished Cain through what happened to Cain's generations. Correct me if Im wrong - but isnt that the case? He was punished through his offspring.
Thanks again Fr for you kind and thoughtful response.
I don't particularly agree with the more complex popular Catholic view of purgatory. But I do think there is a purgative process after death, which may be instantaneous, may take a while, may seem like it takes a while. I don't know. Who can say. But there seem enough passages in the Bible to support such a view. Lord knows I need to have the chaff and stubble consumed from my heart.
I guess there is a difference between man's justice and God's justice. There may be a debt to pay to man's justice - as in some of these abusive Catholic priests - and there may be a debt to pay to God's righteousness, which may require a cleansing process after death which may be painful - in a personal sense rather than physically.
When I sin badly I know that it affects my family and those around me - without saying that God punishes me through them. But there are spiritual effects all around us. We know that a psychologically abusive person damages those around them, and a smoking parent affects the health of his/her children. I am certain that sin affects those around us in a similar way both directly and indirectly. This inspires me to try and be more holy because other's lives depend on it in some sense.
It is also the case that when we live broken and defective lives we can only expect that our children will in some sense be broken and defective. We do reap what we sow. (But in some sense - I keep saying that - I don't believe it is a fixed rule because in the end I do believe we all have choices).
Someone who cannot forgive ends up being bitter, and this affects his/her family, even unconsciously. Someone who lets go of hurts, by the grace of God, is able to be generous, and to teach his/her children to be generous and open-hearted, even unconsciously.
I do not believe that God causes any person to do anything sinful or harmful to punish someone else. Indeed I do not believe God punishes us at all, those who belong to him. He chastises us as a loving father, this is very different indeed.
As to what God does. He sees all and knows all. If we forgive then we give room for God to act in justice, but as he wills, not as we will. He also loves that other person who has hurt us, and wishes to save them also. This does not mean that he does not care about wrongs, but God is playing a different and longer game than we usually are.
Pray for your enemies and those who treat you badly. It does us only good, and it may do them good. To wish our enemies ill causes us harm and harms them. Win-win, or lose-lose. We have the choice.
Father Peter
And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
--> so God punished Cain for the murder of his brother Abel.
Does this still happen nowadays? Yes, murder happens etc, but does God react and punish the same way like before?
Also, God blessed Abraham THROUGH his son Isaac, who was blessed through Jacab, who was blessed through his children. So, they were rewarded through their children. Is the same also concerning punishment. Are people punished/chastised (whatever term you wanna call it) through their children also??
Thanks