You may go to their website: www.britishorthodoxchurch.org. It answers all of your questions.
Simply put: they are a semi-autonomous western jurisdiction within the Coptic Orthodox Church. They are fully under the Patriarchate of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
The British Orthodox Church is a church which caters for british people interested in Orthodoxy but who may seem hesitant because of the cultural ethos that many Orthodox Churches have, such as the Greek or Russian Churches within the UK catering towards their respective communities.
It is under the Juristiction of HH Pope Shenouda, but has some slight differences such as a fully English liturgy, and celebrating Christmas on the same day as the Anglican Church. Apart from that i don't see much difference between the coptic church and BOC.
Theologically and Dogmatically: Absolutely and Definitively--Coptic Orthodox Calendar: Western (Gregorian) Rites: English, utilizing a hybrid of Eastern and Western influence
Well, more complex than than i'm afraid ??? Easter is celebrated at the same as the Oriental Orthodox rite, I think (but am not sure) that Christmas is the only festival the BOC celebrate the same as western rite.
Theologically / Dogmatically definitely the same as the Copts.
Rites: Same as the Copts but translated into English. We fast the same and perform liturgy the same, using the St. James Liturgy instead of St. Basil.
I think Father Peter would be better to answer this though, as he is a Priest of the BOC and I am just a Layman.
I'm actually interested about this: Celtic Orthodox Church as I wiggled around on-line. I was wondering about the historical interaction between the two churches: British and Celtic. There were some interesting comments on their website. I was wondering what the BOC perspective was and the role in movement towards affiliation with the CoC in light of the Celtic experience?
Not sure what you mean by your question.... can you be a bit clearer.
The Celtic group was part of the community governed by Abba Seraphim. They decided to reject the offer to become part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. The main British community chose to become united and has been blessed by the union.
The main issue was the the Celtic group did not want to submit to anyone's authority and preferred to be free to do as they wanted, and their bishops in France did not want to have to be under any one else, since Metropolitan Markos had already been bishop of the French Coptic Orthodox Church for many years.
My French is quite rudimentary. It was a bit difficult to discern some of the nuances that were written. Actually the quick background you just gave was all I needed. I had not known there was a Celtic Orthodox Church.
on behalf of the french, i want to say they are not all rude! i used to think like u because i had only been to paris and met too many racist people, but actually when i went to normandy and also the south of france, i met many lovely french people who were friendly and helpful.
about the british orthodox church, i think they also have the feast of the apostles 2 weeks earlier than us copts, i hope someone corrects me if i am wrong.
i really like the liturgy of st. james, it is full of truth and beauty like the other coptic liturgies and it sounds like a mixture of european and asian influence in the music. personally i actually like the tunes of the coptic/arabic responses, they sound like a mixture of asian and african to me, but what i like about the british orthodox songs is that there are no songs that go aaaa aaaa aaaa oooo oooo oooo like in coptic ;) which makes it easier to understand. (i love those coptic songs but after 2 years of trying i still haven't mastered tai shori, (the censer)!)
about abba seraphim, he is so cool, i had the privelege of meeting him several times 8)
I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the distribution of the Holy Body. I've only read [never seen] that according to the Liturgy of St. James, the body is placed into the hand of the recipient [like some of our Catholic brothers].
As a Copt, this not only seems foreign, but incomprehensible, being that I was raised kissing the priests hand because he held the Holy Body. I'm assuming it's not as big of a deal as my limited view makes it seem, but I would honestly appreciate any sort of input, whether explanations, history, or anything of that sort.
'I have been to the U.K., plenty of times. People are very friendly, much more than in France.' so i felt a bit sorry for the french!
about Holy Communion in the british orthodox church, u get it in yr mouth, like in the coptic church.
but if u read the early history of orthodox churches, there is good evidence that people sometimes got it in their hands. i agree, it would feel strange, though!
about Holy Communion in the british orthodox church, u get it in yr mouth, like in the coptic church.
I have always recieved it into my hands, and only known it to be recieved in the hand in the BOC. I know you can ask for it into the mouth if that is what you are used to.
If I am correct communion was originally only given in the hand but this changed at some point, I remember being taught this as a Catechumen by Fr. Simon.
Yes, in the old days the priest would give the believer the Eucharist in his hand, but that stopped because people were taking the Eucharist and keeping it for good luck, putting it on their kids' heads for blessings, anything else except eat it. That is why the Coptic orthodox church gives it to you only in the mouth. I think that's pretty interesting how the BOC gives it in your hand. I never knew that.
I give communion to faithful depending on what they are used to and most comfortable with.
There are good reasons why communion began to be restricted, we must remember that the faithful used to be allowed to take communion home and receive it through the week. So there is nothing wrong with folk touching communion. St Cyril of Jerusalem teaches his catechumens how to hold their hands ready to receive communion. But circumstances meant that it became wise to make sure that it was consumed there and then.
It is a great privilege for a priest to handle the body and blood of our Lord, but we must also remember that by far the greater privilege is for the faithful to receive the body and blood into their own body and be united with Christ. If it is an honour to touch these holy things how much greater an honour to receive them. Therefore while we should all show the utmost respect for the holy gifts, nevertheless we should not act as if we might be harmed by them, if we receive them with humility, since if it is harmful to touch them, how much more harmful to receive them into our own bodies.
And if we kiss the priest's hand because he touches the gifts, how much more should we respect and honour our brothers and sisters who receive Christ's body and blood into a mystical union with their own body and blood.
I am not entirely sure that we kiss a priest's hand simply or only because he handles the body and blood of our Lord, since historically it was always the case that a person would kiss a more senior person's hand. This is why we would kiss the Queen's hand for instance. But children would kiss their parent's hands as well. And a man would kiss his master's hand. There was a lot of hand kissing in England in times past. The practice even has an entry on Wikipedia. I think that it is primarily to receive a blessing and secindly a mark of humility and filial relations.
wow, father peter, i didn't realise u can have Holy Communion in yr hand in the british orthodox church. i only took it once from abba seraphim and assumed my experience was normal. i suppose that is also why there are no cloths to put over yr mouth after u take the holy bread, coz u can use yr hand (i had used the edge of my headscarf).
Comments
Simply put: they are a semi-autonomous western jurisdiction within the Coptic Orthodox Church. They are fully under the Patriarchate of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
It is under the Juristiction of HH Pope Shenouda, but has some slight differences such as a fully English liturgy, and celebrating Christmas on the same day as the Anglican Church. Apart from that i don't see much difference between the coptic church and BOC.
Calendar: Western (Gregorian)
Rites: English, utilizing a hybrid of Eastern and Western influence
How is that for a summary.
looks like u have been to a BOC service, have u been in uk?
Easter is celebrated at the same as the Oriental Orthodox rite, I think (but am not sure) that Christmas is the only festival the BOC celebrate the same as western rite.
Theologically / Dogmatically definitely the same as the Copts.
Rites: Same as the Copts but translated into English. We fast the same and perform liturgy the same, using the St. James Liturgy instead of St. Basil.
I think Father Peter would be better to answer this though, as he is a Priest of the BOC and I am just a Layman.
I have been to the U.K., plenty of times. People are very friendly, much more than in France.
In regard to the BOC, I did not go to any services. I met His Eminence [Abba Seraphim] at one of the CoC functions.
I like reading from their website. I find out more about the CoC on their site than on a lot of the Coptic Sites.
The Celtic group was part of the community governed by Abba Seraphim. They decided to reject the offer to become part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. The main British community chose to become united and has been blessed by the union.
The main issue was the the Celtic group did not want to submit to anyone's authority and preferred to be free to do as they wanted, and their bishops in France did not want to have to be under any one else, since Metropolitan Markos had already been bishop of the French Coptic Orthodox Church for many years.
Father Peter
My French is quite rudimentary. It was a bit difficult to discern some of the nuances that were written. Actually the quick background you just gave was all I needed. I had not known there was a Celtic Orthodox Church.
i used to think like u because i had only been to paris and met too many racist people, but actually when i went to normandy and also the south of france, i met many lovely french people who were friendly and helpful.
about the british orthodox church, i think they also have the feast of the apostles 2 weeks earlier than us copts, i hope someone corrects me if i am wrong.
i really like the liturgy of st. james, it is full of truth and beauty like the other coptic liturgies and it sounds like a mixture of european and asian influence in the music. personally i actually like the tunes of the coptic/arabic responses, they sound like a mixture of asian and african to me, but what i like about the british orthodox songs is that there are no songs that go aaaa aaaa aaaa oooo oooo oooo like in coptic ;) which makes it easier to understand. (i love those coptic songs but after 2 years of trying i still haven't mastered tai shori, (the censer)!)
about abba seraphim, he is so cool, i had the privelege of meeting him several times 8)
Also, does anyone have a recording of the St. James liturgy or just the words written?
Thanks
Father Peter
As a Copt, this not only seems foreign, but incomprehensible, being that I was raised kissing the priests hand because he held the Holy Body. I'm assuming it's not as big of a deal as my limited view makes it seem, but I would honestly appreciate any sort of input, whether explanations, history, or anything of that sort.
I did not say that the French were rude. I said that my French [language skills] was rudimentary.
'I have been to the U.K., plenty of times. People are very friendly, much more than in France.'
so i felt a bit sorry for the french!
about Holy Communion in the british orthodox church, u get it in yr mouth, like in the coptic church.
but if u read the early history of orthodox churches, there is good evidence that people sometimes got it in their hands. i agree, it would feel strange, though!
about Holy Communion in the british orthodox church, u get it in yr mouth, like in the coptic church.
I have always recieved it into my hands, and only known it to be recieved in the hand in the BOC. I know you can ask for it into the mouth if that is what you are used to.
If I am correct communion was originally only given in the hand but this changed at some point, I remember being taught this as a Catechumen by Fr. Simon.
There are good reasons why communion began to be restricted, we must remember that the faithful used to be allowed to take communion home and receive it through the week. So there is nothing wrong with folk touching communion. St Cyril of Jerusalem teaches his catechumens how to hold their hands ready to receive communion. But circumstances meant that it became wise to make sure that it was consumed there and then.
It is a great privilege for a priest to handle the body and blood of our Lord, but we must also remember that by far the greater privilege is for the faithful to receive the body and blood into their own body and be united with Christ. If it is an honour to touch these holy things how much greater an honour to receive them. Therefore while we should all show the utmost respect for the holy gifts, nevertheless we should not act as if we might be harmed by them, if we receive them with humility, since if it is harmful to touch them, how much more harmful to receive them into our own bodies.
And if we kiss the priest's hand because he touches the gifts, how much more should we respect and honour our brothers and sisters who receive Christ's body and blood into a mystical union with their own body and blood.
I am not entirely sure that we kiss a priest's hand simply or only because he handles the body and blood of our Lord, since historically it was always the case that a person would kiss a more senior person's hand. This is why we would kiss the Queen's hand for instance. But children would kiss their parent's hands as well. And a man would kiss his master's hand. There was a lot of hand kissing in England in times past. The practice even has an entry on Wikipedia. I think that it is primarily to receive a blessing and secindly a mark of humility and filial relations.
Father Peter