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First Time at Coptic Orthodox Mass
Hi all
I am a Catholic but am beginning to explore the more traditional Christian communities and am especially interested in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
So, I want to attend a Coptic mass but I figure I should ask here first if there is anything I need to know now so I don't embarrass myself there (I've had non-Catholic friends come to Catholic mass w/ me and get very confused by ... everything).
From what I've gathered, men and women sit separately (men on the left?) and mass is 3 hours. Is it normally in Arabic? Coptic? English?
How does one dress for Coptic mass? Suits and ties? Do people normally bring anything?
Thanks so much - I'll let y'all know how it goes.
I am a Catholic but am beginning to explore the more traditional Christian communities and am especially interested in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
So, I want to attend a Coptic mass but I figure I should ask here first if there is anything I need to know now so I don't embarrass myself there (I've had non-Catholic friends come to Catholic mass w/ me and get very confused by ... everything).
From what I've gathered, men and women sit separately (men on the left?) and mass is 3 hours. Is it normally in Arabic? Coptic? English?
How does one dress for Coptic mass? Suits and ties? Do people normally bring anything?
Thanks so much - I'll let y'all know how it goes.
Comments
In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God, amen.
Hey MinaBar, welcome brother to the CoPtic OrThOdOx World! :D
I really appreciate your interest in our coptic orthodox faith and traditon.
To answer your questions, yes, men and women sit separately, men left and women right.
The mass is about 3 hours, but it depends of the priest and the what liturgy is praying. (The liturgy of Basilios el kebeer/the big is the shortest one, the liturgy of st Georgios is much longer and there is also the liturgy el Kyrilosie.) (Anyone, correct me if I am wrong). The liturgy is part in arabic and part in coptic and
eventually another lanuage, - depends of the country you are in, in our country in dutch.
There is not really a dresscode for the Holy liturgy, but it speaks for themselves and it is usally that men and women wear decent clothes and a women for example is not supposed to wear a mini skirt or other too naked or tight clothes, same for men.
The priest and the deacons wear special clothes, the deacons wear a tonia ( don't know the word in english?).
The women are supposed to wear a kerchief/headscarf (no, we are not muslims, but women are supposed to cover their hair in the liturgy out of respect when they attend the Holy Liturgy.) Men don't have to wear any special clothes.
I am sure there are many other nice and smart people on this forum who can
tell u more than I did, and I wish u a very joyfull time in ur first coptic Holy Liturgy.
btw. May I know in which country u are? Are u egyptian?
God bless! ;)
If you wanted to tell us which church you might be likely to visit then there will probably be someone from that Church who will welcome you and help you, or someone here will know someone in the Church who they can get you in contact with.
God bless you
Father Peter
I think you will love the mass.
May I suggest that you try and attend vespers - I know this starts early, but given that we are in Pentecost, you will hear the most beautiful hymns ever.
In fact, the tune for this period even has a name: its called the Joyful Tune.
The tune, in the Coptic Orthodox Church, really expresses the spirit of the period the Church is in.
Please feel free to ask us any questions you may have about the liturgy, or our faith. I think, when coming from a Catholic Church, you will no doubt make many parallels with your own Church.
Most of the Churches I have been to have a segregated congregation (men - left, women - right) , but this is not always the case.
Attending the vespers will mean you will hear the Doxologies of our Church, our tasbeha, our praises and songs of praise. This will also enable you to see the mass from the beginning. In most cases, the priest will usually pray from the Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great; but he may wish to slip into the Gregorian Liturgy at some point, it depends.
I really think the main thing is to go early as possible. The Orthodox Liturgy will make perfect sense if you attend its entirety.
God bless
@MarMar - I'm not Egyptian, I'm American, which is why I figured to post here first - I'm not sure how common it is for non-Egyptians to join the COC (or even come to your services), but I didn't want to stick out too much on my first try (at least I have dark hair) =)
As to your point about women wearing headscarves ("no, we are not muslims...") it made me laugh. 1 Cor 11:5 clearly says "every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head" - and this is one of the many very small things that always makes me wince at (Catholic) church.
Since Vatican II, the Catholic Church seems to have tried to "modernize" itself to keep pace with the growing protestant denominations and, in doing so, has forgotten its 2000 years of tradition. And while, I'm sure, there are people who appreciate being able to come to church in jeans or Communion hymns accompanied by bongos and electric guitars, I don't understand the point of a Church without a history, or a history ignored. The COC seems to have been able to maintain Tradition as was imparted by our Savior and his apostles, and I want to experience that.
@ Fr Peter - I have read some of your other postings on this site and they have been very insightful and educational, many thanks for your knowledge. I will be in Austria (Vienna) where I would imagine the majority of the Congregation will be first generation immigrant, which I guess would create for a more Arabic-heavy liturgy?
@ zoxsasi - thank you also, I will do as you advise (COC Vespers is the Sunday service, correct?). I'm guessing it's enough to sit in the back and do as everyone else does (kneeling, standing, etc)?
I would also like to extend my welcome, and happiness to see you looking into Orthodoxy, especially the Oriental Tradition.
Is the church you are visiting in Vienna St. Markus?
I know there are 2 or 3 in Vienna, but St Markus is the one I have seen before.
I am presuming the Services will be in Arabic and Copic, and that the majority of those attedin will be immigrants, but please do not let that put you off. I myself converted into British Orthdoxy (A Daughter church of the COC) and have had the chance to attend Coptic services, and they reach you no matter the language.
One more bit of advice for you, remember to stand when others are standing. You will find that people will stand through the service, this is normal.
I hope you enjot your journey, and find what you seen.
God Bless you,
Daniel
I know this starts early, but given that we are in Pentecost, you will hear the most beautiful hymns ever.
In fact, the tune for this period even has a name: its called the Joyful Tune.
Zoxasi, habibi we aren't in the holy 50. We have been in the fast of the apostles since may lol. So this means the tune is annual not joyful.
Maurikios, Vespers is the raising of incense on saturday night. Vespers is technically not part of the liturgy. The liturgy starts at Matins. Vespers can be done without a liturgy following it the next day, but a liturgy cannot be done without matins. Matins is the morning raising of incense.
So just watch what everyone else does and copy it!
I took a friend to church once and never warned him about that, now he's too scared to come back lol
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9401.msg115989#msg115989 date=1277590898]
I know this starts early, but given that we are in Pentecost, you will hear the most beautiful hymns ever.
In fact, the tune for this period even has a name: its called the Joyful Tune.
Zoxasi, habibi we aren't in the holy 50. We have been in the fast of the apostles since may lol. So this means the tune is annual not joyful.
Maurikios, Vespers is the raising of incense on saturday night. Vespers is technically not part of the liturgy. The liturgy starts at Matins. Vespers can be done without a liturgy following it the next day, but a liturgy cannot be done without matins. Matins is the morning raising of incense.
Dear Buddy JYdeacon,
I am talking about the vespers. Not the period. The tasbeha Matins - we sing Apekhristos (in the Joyful Tune). If you login to the media section, the matins is sung in the joyful tune. (as opposed to Amouni Mar-en-o-osht). Its the term they've used to describe that beautiful joyful tune of Apekhrestos which then goes sanawee.
But there is a period in our Church called the "Joyful 50's" which as JY has suggested has passed. However, the tune we sing is joyful in matins. I was only talking about matins Jy..
As far as I am aware, it seems to be the name given to this tune in most hymn sites.
I think this is such an awesome tune, its a big shame to miss it.
Dear Maurikos,
Your concerns about the Catholic Church are valid, and we all here share them. I cannot speak for everyone here on tasbeha.org, but I certainly know many catholics who are outraged at how the Roman Catholic Church is changing to welcome new groups into their Patriarchate.
I personally have a strong affinity towards the Catholic Church, and I do love it, so seeing it develop this way is no joy to me. It IS the reason wny I value my Orthodox spirituality and teachings. The Orthodox Church has been EXTREMELY faithful to whatever it has received from the apostolic teachings of the Church fathers. I can give it that much.
If the Church is like a mother that feeds her children spiritual food, then I can assure you, our Orthodox mamma will ensure you have more than the daily recommended requirements for a healthy spiritual life. Nothing is missing from what she offers us, and nothing unbeneficial has been added. Not only do we receive the complete spiritual nutrients, but we receive it at the right time: Our Church is so organised. As you can see, we even are pedantic over what/which hymns are sung when and under what tunes. Like a mother, preparing for her children a meal, the Orthodox Church gives us Breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper, all at the right time; and we can really live in the fullness of Christian life.
Again, I would like to welcome you to this website and to our Coptic Church.
Whatever the name we choose to give to our tunes when they are sung, I really am amazed at their beauty. I hope you enjoy the liturgy and our hymns.
My mistake, but we do not sing apekhristos during vespers either, i think you are thinking of the joyful verses of the cymbals thats said on feasts that starts with tenousht This isn't said every week, only on the 3 big feasts. Annually we don't say it like that. That or nim ghar has apekhristos thats said during the midnight praise but that tune isn't considered "joyful" its just known as the adam tune
Hey JY,
Wait a sec. Let me get u the link. And I recommend ANYONE to hear this.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Major_Feasts_of_the_Lord/Resurrection/Diocese_of_Los_Angeles_Deacons.html
OK.. this is for the joyful 50's. Right? Basically, for penetcost, its the same tune, but the words change
Apekhristos penoti tonf evol khen ni esmo-out owoh afshenaf epshoi ennifi-ow-wee aff-o-orpi nan empi-parakleeton.
Shereh-tef -analem...
etc..
(Slips into sanawee).
I know we are no longer in the joyful 50's, but may I just recommend to anyone to hear the L.A. Deacon's version of this? Its a great mp3 to learn most of the joyful tune.
I think for penecost, we just go straight into Apekhristos Penoti and end with Eporo or Hiten.
Its such an awesome recording.
So, JY, you don't sing this joyful tune in your Church for matins? We do in our Church. Its like as if we are about to do Amoini-Maren-O-osht, but we do instead Apekhristos , the verses for pentecost, and then we slip into sanawee (Shere ne maria.. until the end which i think is Eporo).
JY, please tell me, is their "Apekhristos" at the end of this MP3 - do you call this the "ADAM" tune? I never had it labelled as that.
Zoxsasi, the order of rites for the verses of cymbals is a little complicated so i'd rather not discussed it here in this post.
OK. But you can see from the mp3 some of the beautiful tunes at least that you can expect to hear. (if anyone is interested).
What I also recommend is to hear the gregorian liturgy from tasbeha.org also.
a few things i think are helpful: we stand up for the reading of the gospel (like catholics) and we also stand up whenever the priest is waving the incense around (i think there is a technical term for that but i don't know it!).
some egyptians/sudanese are a bit shy so if they don't say hello they will be pleased if u do.
the bread given out at the end of the service (i.e not the Holy communion) is for everyone, so take some and greet the priest as everyone else does. u don't have to kiss the priest's hand if yr not used to that.
new people are NOT expected to follow everything, there is a lot to follow. so the main thing is to ask God during the service to lead you and guide you, take in as much as you can, and God will guide you. if u get lost, just read stuff in the service book or prayer book, it's all good stuff.
oh and we also do the sign of the cross the same as you.