in response to Godslove 260,.... these are very good questions! comprehensive answers would take a book or two.
here are some humble ideas from me...
1. you say ...'We are taught that we do not inherit Adam's sin..'
Whoever teaches that deserves one brownie point because it causes you to raise these kind of questions but not necessarily because it is true!
2. you say... 'yet we do suffer the consequences of his sin, the loss of Grace...'
this second half of the statement suggests that 'to suffer the consequences of sin' is 'loss of Grace..' I think, they are not the same thing. In fact, sin stirs up both, God's Wrath (Romans 1:18) ands God's Grace (Romans 5.20). The difficulty is in that not all the sinners are subject to God's wrath, as some of the sinners are subject to His grace (Romans 9, vs.22-23...).
3. you asked... 'But WHY do we suffer the consequences of his sin?' ...
well, we cannot escape the reality of being born sinful.(Ps.51 vs.5 states: 'surely i was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me'). Being born sinful does not mean that a baby can commit any sin but it simply means being subject to the law of sin which is within us from conception.(see Romans 8) This is our spiritual heritage from our father, Adam. He rebelled against God, and we, like any child born into a family of rebels, inherit the status of 'spiritual rebel' from our father, Adam. we cannot choose to whom we are born, thus we cannot choose the status we inherit, nor can we reverse the status of 'spiritual rebel' by rebelling against this spiritual/natural law.
4. you asked... 'Why can't every human choose for themselves to separate themselves from God? Why are we bound by the decision Adam made?'
well.. imagine a world in which children would be able to choose their parents...!.. in such case we would think that every child would choose to be born into a royal family where is plenty of safety, riches, power, etc.. but we may well be wrong!! Adam was 'born' (made by or belonged to) to the King of the Universe(s). He new God personally. Adam had personal and direct access to the beauty and splendor of God.. every morning. And yet, he rebelled!!! Why then should we want to have that same choice individually?.. We wouldn't have done any better than Adam, anyway. And suppose we did... as in , some of us would not have rebelled. What's the advantage in this case?.. None! because we would not have known the beauty and the Glory of His Grace!! It takes a forgiven SINNER/REBEL to marvel at the Glory of His Grace. No rebellion..no Grace! Flipping the coin, why should somebody not want to marvel at the Glory of God's Grace??!!! Is this not some kind of rebellion?.. Refusing God's Grace is rebellion indeed. And if we do receive His Grace, why does it matter how we became sinful, whether through personal choice or heritage. ..?..
5. you said... 'If we claim that any human in Adam's place would have done the same, then we are saying that we were designed by God to fail..'
This is not only a logical conclusion, but it also seems to be a biblical one. Romans 9 spells it out for us all. I recommend you read it. Also, chapter 8 vs. 20 reads.. 'For the creation was subjected to frustration (futility) not by its own choice but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation will be liberated from its bondage to decay ...'
i hope someone would find my summary helpful....
Comments
We are not born sinners, but we are born mortal.
They are also very clear that a new born child is guilty of no sins whatsoever.
Father Peter
1. Saint Paul (the apostle) states that the sting of death (mortality) is sin. (1Cor. 15:56)
2. Our orthodox fathers have said that we are born mortal but sinless.
3. my question is: how can babies be born mortal if they have not yet been stung by sin? What is it that makes them mortal at birth? Does death (mortality) have another sting which is distinct from sin? If so, what is it?
thank you for your help.
in quoting 1cor 15:56 i failed to realize the last part of this verse which may hold the clue...
it actually says that 'the sting of the sin is death and THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW'
since babies are not able to engage with the law at a volitional level it seems reasonable to conclude that sin has not enough strength to 'sting' the baby. therefore babies are innocent.
have i got any closer, Father Peter?...
An infant does not have a formed will and so cannot sin. Just as a man who is in a vegetative state cannot sin. Just a day or so ago I read one of the Fathers who suggested that a child was not liable for their choices until even 10 years of age.
We are not born mortal because we have sinned but because mortality is the natural state of all created beings. We are born entirely human, and therefore entirely mortal. Adam and Eve were given a gift, the life of the Holy Spirit, which preserved them in immortality. But when they sinned they lost this gift. They did not cease to be entirely human. Rather they, and we as their descendants, living in the world as it is, were left to our own natural and human mortality.
The sting of Adam's sin was that mortality was able to gain its natural authority over all humans. The sting of OUR OWN sins is the second death which we will experience both now if we live in sin and face at the judgement when all of our own sins are made known.
It is the winter and there is a small hut in the woods. The woodsman and his wife are gathered around the fire. All is well. But the woodsman gets up to reach something and spills all of the stew which was cooking over the stove and extinguishes the fire. They have no more matches. And all of the fire is so completely extinguished that there is no possibility of lighting it again. They are too many days journey from the nearest other house. It grows colder. At first the little hut was still warm, even though the fire had gone out. But after a few hours all the heat had gone. That night the woodsman's wife gives birth. The little child is born into the cold winter chill and even though it is wrapped up in many blankets it is clear that the cold is affecting the babies health. The baby didn't extinguish the fire, yet the baby is still born into the cold. The cold is not un-natural. It is what the world is like without the warmth of the fire. The fire was holding the natural state of the world at bay for a while. It was the father who extinguished the fire. It was his fault. But all suffer, especially the little baby, who suffers without innocently, feeling the cold which is natural to his humanity, but entirely lacking the warmth of the fire, which is only a memory.
The 'sting of the woodsman's clumsiness is bitter cold'. But the baby who feels the bitter cold is not guilty of the woodsman's clumsiness. Even though he must bear the consequences of it.
Father Peter
Thank you Father Peter.
The sting of Adam's sin was that mortality was able to gain its natural authority over all humans. The sting of OUR OWN sins is the second death which we will experience both now if we live in sin and face at the judgement when all of our own sins are made known.
If this is the case then why is mortality handed down from mother to son but not the gift of grace in baptism and anointing?
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9521.msg119198#msg119198 date=1284119128]We are not born mortal because we have sinned but because mortality is the natural state of all created beings. We are born entirely human, and therefore entirely mortal. Adam and Eve were given a gift, the life of the Holy Spirit, which preserved them in immortality. But when they sinned they lost this gift. They did not cease to be entirely human. Rather they, and we as their descendants, living in the world as it is, were left to our own natural and human mortality.
The sting of Adam's sin was that mortality was able to gain its natural authority over all humans. The sting of OUR OWN sins is the second death which we will experience both now if we live in sin and face at the judgement when all of our own sins are made known.
If this is the case then why is mortality handed down from mother to son but not the gift of grace in baptism and anointing?
the mortality Fr Peter is talking about is a nature that is a consequence of Adam's sin. It is not "handed down" from a mother to a son but it is an inevitable effect that was caused by Adam and that is what we stuck with.
It is received individually by each one of us when we are personally united to the new humanity of Christ. It must be preserved by each one of us individually. It can be lost by each one of us individually.
Increasingly I become conscious that the Christian life is indeed as the monastic Fathers teach us, the quest for the fulness of the Holy Spirit, which is life in Christ, and that we should all spend each moment both aware of the presence of God the Holy Spirit in us and with us, and also sensitive to the slightest loss of the presence of the Holy Spirit through our sin.
Our life in Christ is not a 'given', as many Protestants would teach. But it is a dynamic state, in which we must always turn to God, always repent, always give ourselves completely, and when we do not then the grace of this dynamic (and dynamis means power) state diminishes because the Holy Spirit does withdraw from sin, which is the presence of a non-state, non-life, non-being. Surely we must be careful not to think that 'later' we can repent and take care of our spiritual lives. Such an attitude is already representative of a soul falling into non-life and non-being. Into the cold and darkness beyond the life God shares with us.
Now, this very moment, is the Day of Salvation. Now, this very moment, is the great and fearful Day of the Lord. How will we live in this next minute is the question that must occupy us. Will it be entirely in the service of God, or in seeking to satisfy earthly and physical passions? What will be the next words we speak? Will the be kind and gentle, or cruel and hurtful. What will be the next things we look at? What will be the next thing we eat. Will the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ be lifted up in prayer or trampled underfoot as a curse?
Every moment, every breath, is a God given opportunity to recieve grace. But we must choose God every moment. We don't get time off. There is no neutral space. Either we are seeking God in all that we do and say and think and see, or we are falling into darkness. What joy there is, even in the midst of great pain, to seek God with each breath, praying Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me.
Father Peter
[quote author=LifeInDeath link=topic=9521.msg121800#msg121800 date=1289010020]
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9521.msg119198#msg119198 date=1284119128]We are not born mortal because we have sinned but because mortality is the natural state of all created beings. We are born entirely human, and therefore entirely mortal. Adam and Eve were given a gift, the life of the Holy Spirit, which preserved them in immortality. But when they sinned they lost this gift. They did not cease to be entirely human. Rather they, and we as their descendants, living in the world as it is, were left to our own natural and human mortality.
The sting of Adam's sin was that mortality was able to gain its natural authority over all humans. The sting of OUR OWN sins is the second death which we will experience both now if we live in sin and face at the judgement when all of our own sins are made known.
If this is the case then why is mortality handed down from mother to son but not the gift of grace in baptism and anointing?
the mortality Fr Peter is talking about is a nature that is a consequence of Adam's sin. It is not "handed down" from a mother to a son but it is an inevitable effect that was caused by Adam and that is what we stuck with.
Hi Minagir,
St Athanasius in On the Incarnation makes it very clear that humanity before and after the fall was mortal, it was man's union with God in the garden that blessed him with immortality.
The gift was lost to us when sin and corruption entered human nature through Adam's sin.
I was just querying why in the case of our current state that this mortal nature is passed from mother to child at birth but not the gift of baptism conferred on the mother by God.
God bless,
andrew
Mortality is a natural aspect of our humanity, the gift of grace is just that, a gift.
It is received individually by each one of us when we are personally united to the new humanity of Christ. It must be preserved by each one of us individually. It can be lost by each one of us individually.
Increasingly I become conscious that the Christian life is indeed as the monastic Fathers teach us, the quest for the fulness of the Holy Spirit, which is life in Christ, and that we should all spend each moment both aware of the presence of God the Holy Spirit in us and with us, and also sensitive to the slightest loss of the presence of the Holy Spirit through our sin.
Our life in Christ is not a 'given', as many Protestants would teach. But it is a dynamic state, in which we must always turn to God, always repent, always give ourselves completely, and when we do not then the grace of this dynamic (and dynamis means power) state diminishes because the Holy Spirit does withdraw from sin, which is the presence of a non-state, non-life, non-being. Surely we must be careful not to think that 'later' we can repent and take care of our spiritual lives. Such an attitude is already representative of a soul falling into non-life and non-being. Into the cold and darkness beyond the life God shares with us.
Now, this very moment, is the Day of Salvation. Now, this very moment, is the great and fearful Day of the Lord. How will we live in this next minute is the question that must occupy us. Will it be entirely in the service of God, or in seeking to satisfy earthly and physical passions? What will be the next words we speak? Will the be kind and gentle, or cruel and hurtful. What will be the next things we look at? What will be the next thing we eat. Will the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ be lifted up in prayer or trampled underfoot as a curse?
Every moment, every breath, is a God given opportunity to recieve grace. But we must choose God every moment. We don't get time off. There is no neutral space. Either we are seeking God in all that we do and say and think and see, or we are falling into darkness. What joy there is, even in the midst of great pain, to seek God with each breath, praying Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me.
Father Peter
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
The reason for my question was that I was wondering if in Eden procreation would have produced children with to use St Athanasius's expression the 'birthright of beauty' which is also a gift why God wouldn't want to make the gift of baptism be passed from mother to son in the same way - is it simply for the reasons you have stated about personal responsibility and the struggle to overcome sin and darkness in our lives so we can experience the kingdom?
God bless,
LID
Hi Minagir,
St Athanasius in On the Incarnation makes it very clear that humanity before and after the fall was mortal, it was man's union with God in the garden that blessed him with immortality.
The gift was lost to us when sin and corruption entered human nature through Adam's sin.
I was just querying why in the case of our current state that this mortal nature is passed from mother to child at birth but not the gift of baptism conferred on the mother by God.
God bless,
andrew
I think abouna Peter made it clear in his last post.
I really don't remember St Athnasius words in "On the Incarnation".....but if it is as you said, than that should actually make it clearer. The nature didn't/won't change. Only the GIFT of God can affect it.
[quote author=LifeInDeath link=topic=9521.msg121821#msg121821 date=1289129693]
Hi Minagir,
St Athanasius in On the Incarnation makes it very clear that humanity before and after the fall was mortal, it was man's union with God in the garden that blessed him with immortality.
The gift was lost to us when sin and corruption entered human nature through Adam's sin.
I was just querying why in the case of our current state that this mortal nature is passed from mother to child at birth but not the gift of baptism conferred on the mother by God.
God bless,
andrew
I think abouna Peter made it clear in his last post.
I really don't remember St Athnasius words in "On the Incarnation".....but if it is as you said, than that should actually make it clearer. The nature didn't/won't change. Only the GIFT of God can affect it.
Absolutely, but I suppose I want to know why 'the birthright of beauty' or union with God is passed from mother to son in the garden but not now in baptism.
This principle is understood further and in parallel with the fact that our sins are a personal responsibility and not transferable to the next generation of offspring.
Like Father Peter also explained, since the gift of grace, being so personal, a person should try to keep it eagerly, or on the first occasion they'll need to renew it via Sacraments again, after repenting (the Sacrament, e.g. of Repentance).
Please correct me if wrong.
GBU
This principle is understood further and in parallel with the fact that our sins are a personal responsibility and not transferable to the next generation of offspring.
Like Father Peter also explained, since the gift of grace, being so personal, a person should try to keep it eagerly, or on the first occasion they'll need to renew it via Sacraments again, after repenting (the Sacrament, e.g. of Repentance).
Please correct me if wrong.
GBU
I think this sounds right to me, I think more simply there is a clear difference between a 'birthright' and a 'gift'. One we're entitled to because we're born and the other is bestowed individually.
Thanks everyone for your help.