[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142190#msg142190 date=1311964073] we're all 'blameless' as long as we are covered by the blood of Christ.
Sorry, but that just made me shudder. It sounds almost 'Protestant' in nature.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142190#msg142190 date=1311964073] There's many instances in the syniexar that refer the souls of saints as blameless as well. does that mean that they are without sin as well? This is just our language as Orthodox
If you could refer to some of these saints, I would be grateful.
THE ORTHODOX CHURCH teaches about the Mother of God that which Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture have informed concerning Her, and daily it glorifies Her in its temples, asking Her help and defense. Knowing that She is pleased only by those praises which correspond to Her actual glory, the Holy Fathers and hymn-writers have entreated Her and Her Son to teach them how to hymn Her. "Set a rampart about my mind, 0 my Christ, for I make bold to sing the praise of Thy pure Mother" (Ikos of the Dormition). "The Church teaches that Christ was truly born of Mary the Ever-Virgin" (St. Epiphanius, "True Word Concerning the Faith"). "It is essential for us to confess that the Holy Ever-Virgin Mary is actually Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), so as not to fall into blasphemy. For those who deny that the Holy Virgin is actually Theotokos are no longer believers, but disciples of the Pharisees and Sadducees" (St. Ephraim the Syrian,"To John the Monk").
From Tradition it is known that Mary was the daughter of the aged Joachim and Anna, and that Joachim descended from the royal line of David, and Anna from the priestly line. Notwithstanding such a noble origin, they were poor. However, it was not this that saddened these righteous ones, but rather the fact that they did not have children and could not hope that their descendants would see the Messiah. And behold, when once, being disdained by the Hebrews for their barrenness, they both in grief of soul were offering up prayers to God Joachim on a mountain to which he had retired after the priest did not want to offer his sacrifice in the Temple, and Anna in her own garden weeping over her barrenness-there appeared to them an angel who informed them that they would bring forth a daughter. Overjoyed, they promised to consecrate their child to God.
In nine months a daughter was born to them, called Mary, Who from Her early childhood manifested the best qualities of soul. When She was three years old, her parents, fulfilling their promise, solemnly led the little Mary to the Temple of Jerusalem; She Herself ascended the high steps and, by revelation from God, She was led into the very Holy of Holies, by the High Priest who met Her, taking with Her the grace of God which rested upon Her into the Temple which until then had been without grace. (See the Kontakion of the Entry into the Temple. This was the newly-built Temple into which the glory of God had not descended as it had upon the Ark or upon the Temple of Solomon.) She was settled in the quarters for virgins which existed in the Temple, but She spent so much time in prayer in the Holy of Holies that one might say that She lived in it. (Service to the Entry, second sticheron on Lord, I have cried, and the "Glory, Both Now...") Being adorned with all virtues, She manifested an example of extraordinarily pure life. Being submissive and obedient to all, She offended no one, said no crude word to anyone, was friendly to all, and did not allow any unclean thought. (Abridged from St. Ambrose of Milan, "Concerning the Ever-Virginity of the Virgin Mary.")
"Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of the life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to original sin and death." (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, "Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God.") "A stranger to any fall into sin" (St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the I I 8th Psalm), "She was not a stranger to sinful temptations." "God alone is without sin" (St. Ambrose, same source), "while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfill the commandment of God; Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am Holy (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy.
The Virgin Mary, having given Herself entirely up to God, even though She repulsed from Herself every impulse to sin, still felt the weakness of human nature more powerfully than others and ardently desired the coming of the Saviour. In Her humility She considered Herself unworthy to be even the servant-girl of the Virgin Who was to give Him birth. So that nothing might distract Her from prayer and heedfulness to Herself, Mary gave to God a vow not to become married, in order to please only Him Her whole life long. Being betrothed to the elderly Joseph when Her age no longer, allowed Her to remain in the Temple, She settled in his house in Nazareth. Here the Virgin was vouchsafed the coming of the Archangel Gabriel, who brought Her the good tidings of the birth, from Her of the Son of the Most High.
Hail, Thou that art full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art thou among women ... The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. wherefore also that which is to be born shall be holy, and shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:28-35).
Mary received the angelic good tidings humbly and submissively. "Then the Word, in a way known to Himself, descended and, as He Himself willed, came and entered into Mary and abode in Her" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, "Praise of the Mother of God"). "As lightning illuminates what is hidden, so also Christ purifies what is hidden in the nature of things. He purified the Virgin also and then was born, so as to show that where Christ is, there is manifest purity in all its power. He purified the Virgin, having prepared Her by the Holy Spirit, and then the womb, having become pure, conceived Him. He purified the Virgin while She was inviolate; wherefore, having been born, He left Her virgin. I do not say that Mary became immortal, but that being illuminated by grace, She was not disturbed by sinful desires" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, Homily Against Heretics, 41). "The Light abode in Her, cleansed Her mind, made Her thoughts pure, made chaste Her concerns, sanctified Her virginity" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, "Mary and Eve"). "One who was pure according to human understanding, He made pure by grace" (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, "Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God").
Mary told no one of the appearance of the angel, but the angel himself revealed to Joseph concerning Mary's miraculous conception from the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1: 18-25); and after the Nativity of Christ, with a multitude of the heavenly host, he announced it to the shepherds. The shepherds, coming to worship the new-born one, said that they had heard of Him. Having previously endured suspicion in silence, Mary now also listened in silence and kept in Her heart the sayings concerning the greatness of Her Son (Luke 2:8-19). She heard forty days later Symeon's prayer of praise and the prophecy concerning the weapon which would pierce Her soul. Later She saw how Jesus advanced in wisdom; She heard Him at the age of twelve teaching in the Temple, and everything She kept in Her heart (Luke 2:21-5 1). Even though full of grace, She did not yet fully understand in what the service and the greatness of Her Son would consist The Hebrew conceptions of the Messiah were still close to Her, and natural feelings forced Her to be concerned for Him, preserving Him from labors and dangers which it might seem, were excessive. Therefore She favored Her Son involuntarily at first, which evoked His indication of the superiority of spiritual to bodily kinship (Matt. 12:46-49). "He had concern also over the honor of His Mother, but much more over the salvation of Her soul and the good of men, for which He had become clothed in the flesh" (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 2 1). Mary understood this and heard the word of God and kept it (Luke 11:27, 28). As no other person) She had the same feelings as Christ (Phil. 2:5), unmurmuringly bearing the grief of a mother when She saw Her Son persecuted and suffering. Rejoicing in the day of the Resurrection, on the day of Pentecost She was clothed with power from on high (Luke 24:49). The Holy Spirit Who descended upon Her taught (Her) all things (John 14:26), and instructed (Her) in all truth (John 16:13). Being enlightened, She began to labor all the more zealously to perform what She had heard from Her Son and Redeemer, so as to ascend to Him and to be with Him.
The end of the earthly life of the Most Holy Mother of God was the beginning of Her greatness. "Being adorned with Divine glory" (Irmos of the Canon of the Dormition), She stands and will stand, both in the day of the Last Judgment and in the future age, at the right hand of the throne of Her Son. She reigns with Him and has boldness towards Him as His Mother according to the flesh, and as one in spirit with Him, as one who performed the will of God and instructed others (Matt. 5:19). Merciful and full of love, She manifests Her love towards Her Son and God in love for the human race. She intercedes for it before the Merciful One, and going about the earth, She helps men. Having experienced all the difficulties of earthly life, the Intercessor of the Christian race sees every tear, hears every groan and entreaty directed to Her. Especially near to Her are those who labor in the battle with the passions and are zealous for a God-pleasing life. But even in worldly cares She is an irreplaceable helper. "Joy of all who sorrow and intercessor for the offended, feeder of the hungry, consolation of travellers, harbor of the storm-tossed, visitation of the sick, protection and intercessor for the infirm, staff of old age, Thou art the Mother of God on high, 0 Most Pure One" (Sticheron of the Service to the Hodigitria). "The hope and intercession and refuge of Christians," "The Mother of God unceasing in prayers" (Kontakion of Dormition), "saving the world by Thine unceasing prayer" (Theotokion of the Third Tone). "She day and night doth pray for us, and the scepters of kingdoms are confirmed by Her prayers" (daily Nocturne).
There is no intellect or words to express the greatness of Her Who was born in the sinful human race but became "more honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim." "Seeing the grace of the secret mysteries of God made manifest and clearly fulfilled in the Virgin, I rejoice; and I know not how to understand the strange and secret manner whereby the Undefiled has been revealed as alone chosen above all creation, visible and spiritual. Therefore, wishing to praise Her, I am struck dumb with amazement in both mind and speech. Yet still I dare to proclaim and magnify Her: She is indeed the heavenly Tabernacle" (Ikos of the Entry into the Temple). "Every tongue is at a loss to praise Thee as is due; even a spirit from the world above is filled with dizziness, when it seeks to sing Thy praises, 0 Theotokos. But since Thou art good, accept our faith. Thou knowest well our love inspired by God, for Thou art the Protector of Christians, and we magnify Thee" (Irmos of the 9th Canticle, Service of the Theophany).
I dont think the orthodox church considers The Holy Mother of God as sinless. Ive heard many intelligent priests and monks agree to this.. The Bible is clear in saying that NO man is without sin, there are countless examples in the Bible exaggerating this very point.. "ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."
With all due respect to the Holy Theotokos, she is not an exception. If you were to say that she had NO sin during her pregnancy this is perfectly acceptable to me. However, before and after giving birth you see the imperfection of the fallen nature even IN Mary. When she "lost" Jesus as a child and found him she said "Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?" This is NOT a sin, but it shows the imperfection of humans beings that Mary like everyone had.
Likewise when Mary tells Jesus to make the water wine "the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come." Once again, the imperfections of humanity.
Again im not pointing out SINS of Mary, im just showing the imperfections of mankind seen also in the Holy Mother... One of the clearest verses is found in Luke 1, Saint Mary says, My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
Savior of what? If she had no sins, what is the Lord Almighty saving her from? Are we not punished for sins alone? Is there a punishment for something other than sin? If not than all who sin need to be saved, those who don't sin do NOT need to be saved. I realize this could get into infant salvation but lets not talk about that right now. Infants have no free will, but Mary was obviously old enough to make her own decisions. Anyone human with free will commits sin, save Christ.
If we say Mary was sinless, this automatically implies anyone could be sinless, which means salvation on the cross is not needed because people are living sinless lives. If you look at Job it also says he was "blameless" but that doesnt mean he was sinless. We must understand Saint Mary is honored not because of herself but because of HIM... I dont think to many people realize that, especially in Orthodoxy
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. This shows a grievous misunderstanding of what sin, our fallen nature and salvation is all about. Sin is but the symptom. Christ came to save us and heal our disease, not just treat a symptom. What is the disease? Our fallen, mortal nature which is now prone to corruption and death. This is the nature that all humans possess, including the blessed Theotokos. When we speak of the sinlessness of St. Mary, we are talking about personal sins she committed. It is the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states that St. Mary did not possess 'Original Sin' (which is itself an unOrthodox concept). Read St. Athanasius' treatise 'On the Incarnation'. It goes into depth about why Christ came and died for us.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142221#msg142221 date=1312013726] + Irini nem ehmot,
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. This shows a grievous misunderstanding of what sin, our fallen nature and salvation is all about. Sin is but the symptom. Christ came to save us and heal our disease, not just treat a symptom. What is the disease? Our fallen, mortal nature which is now prone to corruption and death. This is the nature that all humans possess, including the blessed Theotokos. When we speak of the sinlessness of St. Mary, we are talking about personal sins she committed. It is the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states that St. Mary did not possess 'Original Sin' (which is itself an unOrthodox concept). Read St. Athanasius' treatise 'On the Incarnation'. It goes into depth about why Christ came and died for us.
Ive read that book before but it hasnt lead me to the conclusion you proposed. However, I do understand Christ came to save us from our sins. Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142266#msg142266 date=1312060752] Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
Note the bolded statement. Where exactly did I either say, or imply that? Kindly do not put words or thoughts in my mouth. Feel free to read through everything I've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
Fr. Tadros' comments seem inconclusive, he presents a few quotes in support of the idea that St. Mary was sinless (2 of which are ambiguous). Even more startling is the fact that those who opposed to this view are giants in the Coptic OC (Irenaeus, Origen, John Chrysostom), whereas the citations in favor of this view aren't.
I have noticed this isue with Fr. Tadsos' books. With all sue respect to him, I find his writings support one idea over the another.
Romans 3:23 NKJV for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
I have stated this before and I will stat it again: The Bible speaks in absolute terms and when it says all it means all. Thus, it is absurd to say anyone can live without sin except Christ Himself.
Sin is the symptom of our fallen nature and without God's grace we cannot confine sin. This grace came through Christ's death, resurrection and the pouring of the Holy Spirit. St Mary obviously falls in the category of "all have sinned" and did not receive the grace of the Holy Spirit before she was still living in the temple.
Fr. Tadros' comments seem inconclusive, he presents a few quotes in support of the idea that St. Mary was sinless (2 of which are ambiguous). Even more startling is the fact that those who opposed to this view are giants in the Coptic OC (Irenaeus, Origen, John Chrysostom), whereas the citations in favor of this view aren't.
I have noticed this isue with Fr. Tadsos' books. With all sue respect to him, I find his writings support one idea over the another.
the reason you might think so imikhail is that Fr. Tadrous' statment was presently incorrectly. The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession.....we are pure and can be called 'sinless' until we sin again.
Fr. Tadros' comments seem inconclusive, he presents a few quotes in support of the idea that St. Mary was sinless (2 of which are ambiguous). Even more startling is the fact that those who opposed to this view are giants in the Coptic OC (Irenaeus, Origen, John Chrysostom), whereas the citations in favor of this view aren't.
I have noticed this isue with Fr. Tadsos' books. With all sue respect to him, I find his writings support one idea over the another.
the reason you might think so imikhail is that Fr. Tadrous' statment was presently incorrectly. The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession.....we are pure and can be called 'sinless' until we sin again.
Mina, I don't understand the first sentence you wrote. Are you saying that I presented what Fr. Tadros wrote incorrectly? If you think so, please quote his writing. He doesn't say anything about when St. Mary became sinless. . .
The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession
What book and what version did you find this interpretation?
Do you think that the Virgin received a grace that is superior than what has been received by the rest of us?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142308#msg142308 date=1312145899] Do you think that the Virgin received a grace that is superior than what has been received by the rest of us?
Is this a rhetorical question? If the Archangel Gabriel greeted her with, 'Hail to you full of Grace, the Lord is with you!', you don't think that is a superior greeting? Of course she has received a grace greater than any human. She is the Theotokos, she is full of Grace, she is elevated above the Sherobim and Ceraphim. You think anyone else is qualified for that? Because she is full of Grace, because she submitted her will fully with the Will of God, it is not difficult to see why the blessed Theotokos could conceivably not have committed any personal sins.
The same is true of the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb.
Name any other human, any other saint, who fits these descriptions.
You may have taken my question out of context. Grace over sin is different than honor.
My question is about sinlessness. We all have received the grace not to sin, but it is up to each of us on how to deal with tnst grace.
If we say that St. Mary is sinlessness be a use the grace she received is superior than the rest if us then we are saying that the grace we received is not enough to help us reach that level that St. May had reached. We also say that God is unjust in distributing His grace and the work of The Holy Spirit is deficient in us.
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=9585.msg142297#msg142297 date=1312099431] Mina, I don't understand the first sentence you wrote. Are you saying that I presented what Fr. Tadros wrote incorrectly? If you think so, please quote his writing. He doesn't say anything about when St. Mary became sinless. . .
i don't remember where is exactly he said it....it was a while ago when i read it. i guess the word 'sinless' is just hard to deal with and is broad. the belief of our Church, and i will confirm this later with my spiritual father, that she was like any human, born of the sinful nature, and lived her life normally until the dwelling of the Holy Spirit...than became in a state in which she did not sin.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142319#msg142319 date=1312147903] + Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
You are mixing different issues here: Full of grace Submitting to God's will rids sin. The life in Paradise before the fall
What you need to think about is are we not full of grace? Is the grace that we received through baptism somewhat inferior to what St Mar received? Can't we also be sinless? Of course we can. But this sinlessness is not attributed to us but to the grace that we received.
The difference between us and St Mary is not in the type of grace she received, but with what she did with that grace.
Yes, grace can make us like Adam and Eve in the Paradise if we fully live by it.
Christ was sinless by nature, St. Mary is sinless by grace
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
I never said otherwise. Once again, St. Mary is sinless because she fully submitted to the will of God. She is full of Grace, in a way that none of us ever will be. However, the reason she is sinless is not because of grace alone, but because she submitted her will to the will of God. She freely chose not to sin.
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
I never said otherwise. Once again, St. Mary is sinless because she fully submitted to the will of God. She is full of Grace, in a way that none of us ever will be. However, the reason she is sinless is not because of grace alone, but because she submitted her will to the will of God. She freely chose not to sin.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142269#msg142269 date=1312061217] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142266#msg142266 date=1312060752] Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
Note the bolded statement. Where exactly did I either say, or imply that? Kindly do not put words or thoughts in my mouth. Feel free to read through everything I've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
It is clear to me that you are not reading what I'm saying.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746] With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Here is the definition for 'prone':
Definition of PRONE 1 : having a tendency or inclination : being likely <prone to forget names> <accident-prone> 2 a : having the front or ventral surface downward b : lying flat or prostrate
The pertinent definition has been bolded. All humans are prone to sin. That does not mean that we necessarily will sin. All humans have inherited the fallen, corrupt, mortal nature as a consequence of Adam's sin which makes us all prone to sin. However, just because we are prone to something does not mean that we will act on it. A person who is genetically susceptible to alcoholism will not necessarily become an alcoholic, especially if the willfully choose not to take a single drink in their entire life. It's the same idea.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746] Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
Our fallen, corrupt, mortal nature is a result of Adam's sin. Prior to the fall, man was mortal but incorruptible and lived in God's presence and thus would not die. After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death. As such, Christ had to come and save us. He saved us from death. He restored and elevated our nature. He granted us immortality once more. Even though St. Mary did not commit any personal sins (because she willfully submitted her will to God's and willfully chose not to sin) she still has the same nature as every other human. As such, she also needed to be saved from it. Her nature also had to be restored. THAT is why Christ came. To save us from death. Once again, sin is just the symptom, death is the disease.
I'm going to say this one more time: the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142416#msg142416 date=1312234011] + Irini nem ehmot,
It is clear to me that you are not reading what I'm saying.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746] With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Here is the definition for 'prone':
Definition of PRONE 1 : having a tendency or inclination : being likely <prone to forget names> <accident-prone> 2 a : having the front or ventral surface downward b : lying flat or prostrate
The pertinent definition has been bolded. All humans are prone to sin. That does not mean that we necessarily will sin. All humans have inherited the fallen, corrupt, mortal nature as a consequence of Adam's sin which makes us all prone to sin. However, just because we are prone to something does not mean that we will act on it. A person who is genetically susceptible to alcoholism will not necessarily become an alcoholic, especially if the willfully choose not to take a single drink in their entire life. It's the same idea.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746] Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
Our fallen, corrupt, mortal nature is a result of Adam's sin. Prior to the fall, man was mortal but incorruptible and lived in God's presence and thus would not die. After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death. As such, Christ had to come and save us. He saved us from death. He restored and elevated our nature. He granted us immortality once more. Even though St. Mary did not commit any personal sins (because she willfully submitted her will to God's and willfully chose not to sin) she still has the same nature as every other human. As such, she also needed to be saved from it. Her nature also had to be restored. THAT is why Christ came. To save us from death. Once again, sin is just the symptom, death is the disease.
I'm going to say this one more time: the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
I see what your saying, but I dont think you answered my last question. Let me make it more clear.. I agree with you 100% that St Mary still needed saving. BUT the Death on the cross was for the forgiveness of sins it was a punishment. However, Christ's incarnation ALONE blessed the human nature, and Baptism is the means by which we are reborn of Christ, sharing of Christs nature rather than our first birth into the corrupt nature of Adam. So If Mary was able to live a life without sin (Even though the Bible says its impossible for a man to live a single day without sinning) doesn't this imply anyone/everyone can live a sinless life and thus Christ would still have to have come into the world as a human but would NOT have to have died on the cross. Do you see what im saying?
After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death.
Human death was always around, even before the fall. The tree of Life which Adam did not eat of because he was kicked out of the garden was the means by which he would have lived for ever as a human. Where'as the spiritual death is caused by ones personal sins. James 1:15 "Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." Notice he says when lust has CONCEIVED that is, realized by the individual, it gives birth to sin (knowing that its wrong), and when sin is accomplished, that is, when you commit the act of doing something you know is wrong, it brings forth death. So corruption and mortality are purely spiritual results of the fallen nature, the physical death was the mercy of God who kicked us out of the garden lest we should eat of the tree of life and live forever in our bodies as corrupt mortal "dead" spirits trapped in the body. And thus we could never be with God.. like a hell on earth almost.
p.s. I am reading what you are saying, and I know the definition of prone and used that term because im use to using it though its not the "official" word used to explain the doctrine of the inherited fallen nature.
Please pray that I gain understanding, forgive me if ive been offensive, I just want to know the truth even though like you said it is theologoumenon.
Read this and this. It shows how the Church teaches that man, before the fall, was mortal but incorruptible (i.e. would not die). Christ died to save us from death (as we say in the Liturgy). So in the case of St. Mary, her nature was mortal and corruptible (as a consequence of the fall). As such, she faced the same penalty as the rest of us, death. Even if she didn't commit any personal sins of her own, she still needed to be saved from Death, which is what Christ's death did. Baptism does not transform our nature. Baptism is the mean of allowing us to grow in Christ (Theosis).
The notion regarding whether Adam would have not tasted death had he not committed sin is not clear from the Church Fathers as the issue they dealt with was the corruption of msn's nature and the eternal death.
But we can find the answers from the Bible. God created man from the earth and based on this fact alone there are several questions that we can ponder.
What was God's plan for man? Was it just to live in the garden for eternity? We can find the answer in the following verse:
"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34)
This shows that God’s plan was to have man inherit His kingdom and not remain in the garden forever.
The next question is: Can the earthly inherit the non-earthly? In other words, could have Adam and his descendants inherit the Kingdom in the same form as they were living in the garden?
The answer : “ … flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthian 15:50)
How would Adam have inherited the kingdom had he not fallen?
St Paul explains:
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:17)
"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." (Pilippians 3:21)
Baptism does not transform our nature. Baptism is the mean of allowing us to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism does transform our corruptible nature into incorruptible so that we may inherit the Kingdom. Without baptism, no one will inherit the kingdom.
After baptism, are we still prone to sin? Do we still die? Then how has our nature transformed? Through baptism we die in Christ and are reborn into Him, but I do not believe our nature is transformed. Again, it gives us the means to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism:
Christian Baptism is the mystery of starting anew, of dying to an old way of life and being born again into a new way of life, in Christ. In the Orthodox Church, baptism is "for the remission of sins" (cf. the Nicene Creed) and for entrance into the Church; the person being baptized is cleansed of all sins and is united to Christ; through the waters of baptism he or she is mysteriously crucified and buried with Christ, and is raised with him to newness of life, having "put on" Christ (that is, having been clothed in Christ). The cleansing of sins includes the washing away of the ancestral sin.
Baptism does not transform our nature. Baptism is the mean of allowing us to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism does transform our corruptible nature into incorruptible so that we may inherit the Kingdom. Without baptism, no one will inherit the kingdom.
After baptism, are we still prone to sin? Do we still die? Then how has our nature transformed? Through baptism we die in Christ and are reborn into Him, but I do not believe our nature is transformed. Again, it gives us the means to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism:
Christian Baptism is the mystery of starting anew, of dying to an old way of life and being born again into a new way of life, in Christ. In the Orthodox Church, baptism is "for the remission of sins" (cf. the Nicene Creed) and for entrance into the Church; the person being baptized is cleansed of all sins and is united to Christ; through the waters of baptism he or she is mysteriously crucified and buried with Christ, and is raised with him to newness of life, having "put on" Christ (that is, having been clothed in Christ). The cleansing of sins includes the washing away of the ancestral sin.
Baptism transforms our corruptible nature and make it ready to inherit the kingdom if we live righteously. With no baptism there is no inheritance of the Kingdom.
Our eternal death that we are born with is washed away through baptism. This is the transformation I referred to.
What you said is our nature is transformed and becomes incorruptible. That is not true. Likewise, the eternal death you speak of is not washed away per se. There are people who have been baptised who may very well taste eternal death. I prefer the wording of the OrthoWiki article, personally.
(Note: God is not limited by baptism. He can save whomever He wishes using whatever means He wishes, baptism or no.)
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142899#msg142899 date=1312948873] + Irini nem ehmot,
What you said is our nature is transformed and becomes incorruptible. That is not true. Likewise, the eternal death you speak of is not washed away per se. There are people who have been baptised who may very well taste eternal death. I prefer the wording of the OrthoWiki article, personally.
(Note: God is not limited by baptism. He can save whomever He wishes using whatever means He wishes, baptism or no.)
That is your own belief because it seems you do not believe in the verse:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
Some beautiful thoughts by the Fathers on baptismal grace:
The Letter of Barnabas
“Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls” (Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 [A.D. 74]).
Hermas
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]). Ignatius of Antioch
“Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply” (Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]). Second Clement
“For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey his commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7–9 [A.D. 150]).
Justin Martyr
“Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’” (First Apology 61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).
Theophilus of Antioch
“Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration—all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).
Clement of Alexandria
“When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191]).
Tertullian
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
…
“Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins” (ibid., 7:2).
Hippolytus
“And the bishop shall lay his hand upon them [the newly baptized], invoking and saying: ‘O Lord God, who did count these worthy of deserving the forgiveness of sins by the laver of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit and send upon them thy grace [in confirmation], that they may serve you according to your will” (The Apostolic Tradition 22:1 [A.D. 215]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“While I was lying in darkness . . . I thought it indeed difficult and hard to believe . . . that divine mercy was promised for my salvation, so that anyone might be born again and quickened unto a new life by the laver of the saving water, he might put off what he had been before, and, although the structure of the body remained, he might change himself in soul and mind. . . . But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of rebirth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards, through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man” (To Donatus 3–4 [A.D. 246]).
Aphraahat the Persian Sage
“From baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth, and then they receive the Holy Spirit. . . . In the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit” (Treatises 6:14:4 [A.D. 340]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism [Mark 10:38]. . . . Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10, 12 [A.D. 350]).
Basil the Great
“For prisoners, baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, the death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a royal protector, a gift of adoption” (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects 13:5 [A.D. 379]).
Council of Constantinople I
“We believe . . . in one baptism for the remission of sins” (Nicene Creed [A.D. 381]).
Ambrose of Milan
“The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins” (Commentary on Luke 2:83 [A.D. 389]).
Augustine
“It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).
“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).
“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).
“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).
Comments
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142190#msg142190 date=1311964073]
we're all 'blameless' as long as we are covered by the blood of Christ.
Sorry, but that just made me shudder. It sounds almost 'Protestant' in nature.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142190#msg142190 date=1311964073]
There's many instances in the syniexar that refer the souls of saints as blameless as well. does that mean that they are without sin as well? This is just our language as Orthodox
If you could refer to some of these saints, I would be grateful.
Read this excerpt from an article called The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God by Saint John of Shanghai & San Francisco
With all due respect to the Holy Theotokos, she is not an exception. If you were to say that she had NO sin during her pregnancy this is perfectly acceptable to me. However, before and after giving birth you see the imperfection of the fallen nature even IN Mary. When she "lost" Jesus as a child and found him she said "Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?" This is NOT a sin, but it shows the imperfection of humans beings that Mary like everyone had.
Likewise when Mary tells Jesus to make the water wine "the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come." Once again, the imperfections of humanity.
Again im not pointing out SINS of Mary, im just showing the imperfections of mankind seen also in the Holy Mother... One of the clearest verses is found in Luke 1, Saint Mary says, My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
Savior of what? If she had no sins, what is the Lord Almighty saving her from? Are we not punished for sins alone? Is there a punishment for something other than sin? If not than all who sin need to be saved, those who don't sin do NOT need to be saved. I realize this could get into infant salvation but lets not talk about that right now. Infants have no free will, but Mary was obviously old enough to make her own decisions. Anyone human with free will commits sin, save Christ.
If we say Mary was sinless, this automatically implies anyone could be sinless, which means salvation on the cross is not needed because people are living sinless lives. If you look at Job it also says he was "blameless" but that doesnt mean he was sinless. We must understand Saint Mary is honored not because of herself but because of HIM... I dont think to many people realize that, especially in Orthodoxy
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. This shows a grievous misunderstanding of what sin, our fallen nature and salvation is all about. Sin is but the symptom. Christ came to save us and heal our disease, not just treat a symptom. What is the disease? Our fallen, mortal nature which is now prone to corruption and death. This is the nature that all humans possess, including the blessed Theotokos. When we speak of the sinlessness of St. Mary, we are talking about personal sins she committed. It is the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states that St. Mary did not possess 'Original Sin' (which is itself an unOrthodox concept). Read St. Athanasius' treatise 'On the Incarnation'. It goes into depth about why Christ came and died for us.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. This shows a grievous misunderstanding of what sin, our fallen nature and salvation is all about. Sin is but the symptom. Christ came to save us and heal our disease, not just treat a symptom. What is the disease? Our fallen, mortal nature which is now prone to corruption and death. This is the nature that all humans possess, including the blessed Theotokos. When we speak of the sinlessness of St. Mary, we are talking about personal sins she committed. It is the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states that St. Mary did not possess 'Original Sin' (which is itself an unOrthodox concept). Read St. Athanasius' treatise 'On the Incarnation'. It goes into depth about why Christ came and died for us.
Ive read that book before but it hasnt lead me to the conclusion you proposed. However, I do understand Christ came to save us from our sins. Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142266#msg142266 date=1312060752]
Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
Note the bolded statement. Where exactly did I either say, or imply that? Kindly do not put words or thoughts in my mouth. Feel free to read through everything I've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
Romans 3:23 NKJV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
I have stated this before and I will stat it again: The Bible speaks in absolute terms and when it says all it means all. Thus, it is absurd to say anyone can live without sin except Christ Himself.
Sin is the symptom of our fallen nature and without God's grace we cannot confine sin. This grace came through Christ's death, resurrection and the pouring of the Holy Spirit. St Mary obviously falls in the category of "all have sinned" and did not receive the grace of the Holy Spirit before she was still living in the temple.
the reason you might think so imikhail is that Fr. Tadrous' statment was presently incorrectly. The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession.....we are pure and can be called 'sinless' until we sin again.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142277#msg142277 date=1312075838] I have noticed this isue with Fr. Tadsos' books. With all sue respect to him, I find his writings support one idea over the another.
the reason you might think so imikhail is that Fr. Tadrous' statment was presently incorrectly. The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession.....we are pure and can be called 'sinless' until we sin again.
Mina, I don't understand the first sentence you wrote. Are you saying that I presented what Fr. Tadros wrote incorrectly? If you think so, please quote his writing. He doesn't say anything about when St. Mary became sinless. . .
Do you think that the Virgin received a grace that is superior than what has been received by the rest of us?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142308#msg142308 date=1312145899]
Do you think that the Virgin received a grace that is superior than what has been received by the rest of us?
Is this a rhetorical question? If the Archangel Gabriel greeted her with, 'Hail to you full of Grace, the Lord is with you!', you don't think that is a superior greeting? Of course she has received a grace greater than any human. She is the Theotokos, she is full of Grace, she is elevated above the Sherobim and Ceraphim. You think anyone else is qualified for that? Because she is full of Grace, because she submitted her will fully with the Will of God, it is not difficult to see why the blessed Theotokos could conceivably not have committed any personal sins.
The same is true of the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb.
Name any other human, any other saint, who fits these descriptions.
You may have taken my question out of context. Grace over sin is different than honor.
My question is about sinlessness. We all have received the grace not to sin, but it is up to each of us on how to deal with tnst grace.
If we say that St. Mary is sinlessness be a use the grace she received is superior than the rest if us then we are saying that the grace we received is not enough to help us reach that level that St. May had reached. We also say that God is unjust in distributing His grace and the work of The Holy Spirit is deficient in us.
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
Mina, I don't understand the first sentence you wrote. Are you saying that I presented what Fr. Tadros wrote incorrectly? If you think so, please quote his writing. He doesn't say anything about when St. Mary became sinless. . .
i don't remember where is exactly he said it....it was a while ago when i read it.
i guess the word 'sinless' is just hard to deal with and is broad. the belief of our Church, and i will confirm this later with my spiritual father, that she was like any human, born of the sinful nature, and lived her life normally until the dwelling of the Holy Spirit...than became in a state in which she did not sin.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
You are mixing different issues here:
Full of grace
Submitting to God's will rids sin.
The life in Paradise before the fall
What you need to think about is are we not full of grace? Is the grace that we received through baptism somewhat inferior to what St Mar received? Can't we also be sinless? Of course we can. But this sinlessness is not attributed to us but to the grace that we received.
The difference between us and St Mary is not in the type of grace she received, but with what she did with that grace.
Yes, grace can make us like Adam and Eve in the Paradise if we fully live by it.
Christ was sinless by nature, St. Mary is sinless by grace
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142362#msg142362 date=1312170527]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142319#msg142319 date=1312147903]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
I never said otherwise. Once again, St. Mary is sinless because she fully submitted to the will of God. She is full of Grace, in a way that none of us ever will be. However, the reason she is sinless is not because of grace alone, but because she submitted her will to the will of God. She freely chose not to sin.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142362#msg142362 date=1312170527]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142319#msg142319 date=1312147903]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
I never said otherwise. Once again, St. Mary is sinless because she fully submitted to the will of God. She is full of Grace, in a way that none of us ever will be. However, the reason she is sinless is not because of grace alone, but because she submitted her will to the will of God. She freely chose not to sin.
Very well .. I think we are in agreement.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142266#msg142266 date=1312060752]
Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
Note the bolded statement. Where exactly did I either say, or imply that? Kindly do not put words or thoughts in my mouth. Feel free to read through everything I've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
It is clear to me that you are not reading what I'm saying.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Here is the definition for 'prone': Source
The pertinent definition has been bolded. All humans are prone to sin. That does not mean that we necessarily will sin. All humans have inherited the fallen, corrupt, mortal nature as a consequence of Adam's sin which makes us all prone to sin. However, just because we are prone to something does not mean that we will act on it. A person who is genetically susceptible to alcoholism will not necessarily become an alcoholic, especially if the willfully choose not to take a single drink in their entire life. It's the same idea.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
Our fallen, corrupt, mortal nature is a result of Adam's sin. Prior to the fall, man was mortal but incorruptible and lived in God's presence and thus would not die. After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death. As such, Christ had to come and save us. He saved us from death. He restored and elevated our nature. He granted us immortality once more. Even though St. Mary did not commit any personal sins (because she willfully submitted her will to God's and willfully chose not to sin) she still has the same nature as every other human. As such, she also needed to be saved from it. Her nature also had to be restored. THAT is why Christ came. To save us from death. Once again, sin is just the symptom, death is the disease.
I'm going to say this one more time: the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
It is clear to me that you are not reading what I'm saying.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Here is the definition for 'prone': Source
The pertinent definition has been bolded. All humans are prone to sin. That does not mean that we necessarily will sin. All humans have inherited the fallen, corrupt, mortal nature as a consequence of Adam's sin which makes us all prone to sin. However, just because we are prone to something does not mean that we will act on it. A person who is genetically susceptible to alcoholism will not necessarily become an alcoholic, especially if the willfully choose not to take a single drink in their entire life. It's the same idea.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
Our fallen, corrupt, mortal nature is a result of Adam's sin. Prior to the fall, man was mortal but incorruptible and lived in God's presence and thus would not die. After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death. As such, Christ had to come and save us. He saved us from death. He restored and elevated our nature. He granted us immortality once more. Even though St. Mary did not commit any personal sins (because she willfully submitted her will to God's and willfully chose not to sin) she still has the same nature as every other human. As such, she also needed to be saved from it. Her nature also had to be restored. THAT is why Christ came. To save us from death. Once again, sin is just the symptom, death is the disease.
I'm going to say this one more time: the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
I see what your saying, but I dont think you answered my last question. Let me make it more clear.. I agree with you 100% that St Mary still needed saving. BUT the Death on the cross was for the forgiveness of sins it was a punishment. However, Christ's incarnation ALONE blessed the human nature, and Baptism is the means by which we are reborn of Christ, sharing of Christs nature rather than our first birth into the corrupt nature of Adam. So If Mary was able to live a life without sin (Even though the Bible says its impossible for a man to live a single day without sinning) doesn't this imply anyone/everyone can live a sinless life and thus Christ would still have to have come into the world as a human but would NOT have to have died on the cross. Do you see what im saying? Human death was always around, even before the fall. The tree of Life which Adam did not eat of because he was kicked out of the garden was the means by which he would have lived for ever as a human. Where'as the spiritual death is caused by ones personal sins. James 1:15 "Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." Notice he says when lust has CONCEIVED that is, realized by the individual, it gives birth to sin (knowing that its wrong), and when sin is accomplished, that is, when you commit the act of doing something you know is wrong, it brings forth death. So corruption and mortality are purely spiritual results of the fallen nature, the physical death was the mercy of God who kicked us out of the garden lest we should eat of the tree of life and live forever in our bodies as corrupt mortal "dead" spirits trapped in the body. And thus we could never be with God.. like a hell on earth almost.
p.s. I am reading what you are saying, and I know the definition of prone and used that term because im use to using it though its not the "official" word used to explain the doctrine of the inherited fallen nature.
Please pray that I gain understanding, forgive me if ive been offensive, I just want to know the truth even though like you said it is theologoumenon.
Read this and this. It shows how the Church teaches that man, before the fall, was mortal but incorruptible (i.e. would not die). Christ died to save us from death (as we say in the Liturgy). So in the case of St. Mary, her nature was mortal and corruptible (as a consequence of the fall). As such, she faced the same penalty as the rest of us, death. Even if she didn't commit any personal sins of her own, she still needed to be saved from Death, which is what Christ's death did. Baptism does not transform our nature. Baptism is the mean of allowing us to grow in Christ (Theosis).
But we can find the answers from the Bible. God created man from the earth and based on this fact alone there are several questions that we can ponder.
What was God's plan for man? Was it just to live in the garden for eternity? We can find the answer in the following verse:
"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34)
This shows that God’s plan was to have man inherit His kingdom and not remain in the garden forever.
The next question is: Can the earthly inherit the non-earthly? In other words, could have Adam and his descendants inherit the Kingdom in the same form as they were living in the garden?
The answer : “ … flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthian 15:50)
How would Adam have inherited the kingdom had he not fallen?
St Paul explains:
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:17)
"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." (Pilippians 3:21)
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142895#msg142895 date=1312947059] Baptism does transform our corruptible nature into incorruptible so that we may inherit the Kingdom. Without baptism, no one will inherit the kingdom.
After baptism, are we still prone to sin? Do we still die? Then how has our nature transformed? Through baptism we die in Christ and are reborn into Him, but I do not believe our nature is transformed. Again, it gives us the means to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism: Source
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142895#msg142895 date=1312947059] Baptism does transform our corruptible nature into incorruptible so that we may inherit the Kingdom. Without baptism, no one will inherit the kingdom.
After baptism, are we still prone to sin? Do we still die? Then how has our nature transformed? Through baptism we die in Christ and are reborn into Him, but I do not believe our nature is transformed. Again, it gives us the means to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism: Source
Baptism transforms our corruptible nature and make it ready to inherit the kingdom if we live righteously. With no baptism there is no inheritance of the Kingdom.
Our eternal death that we are born with is washed away through baptism. This is the transformation I referred to.
What you said is our nature is transformed and becomes incorruptible. That is not true. Likewise, the eternal death you speak of is not washed away per se. There are people who have been baptised who may very well taste eternal death. I prefer the wording of the OrthoWiki article, personally.
(Note: God is not limited by baptism. He can save whomever He wishes using whatever means He wishes, baptism or no.)
+ Irini nem ehmot,
What you said is our nature is transformed and becomes incorruptible. That is not true. Likewise, the eternal death you speak of is not washed away per se. There are people who have been baptised who may very well taste eternal death. I prefer the wording of the OrthoWiki article, personally.
(Note: God is not limited by baptism. He can save whomever He wishes using whatever means He wishes, baptism or no.)
That is your own belief because it seems you do not believe in the verse:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
Methinks you are reading too much into that verse. The verse does not say:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
To say God cannot save whomever He wishes limits God's abilities. You sure you want to walk down that road?
Some beautiful thoughts by the Fathers on baptismal grace: Source