Coptic Man...no offense intended...just advice: consult your Bible :)
2 Thessalonians 3:6--> "But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Chrit, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."
2 Thesselonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
(there are many more...but for the sake of time etc.)
Christianity is a loving religion...No doubt...but there is nothing wrong with being zealous about the Orthodox faith. In fact Coptic Man, Id like to remind you that SOME(no generalization there Iqbal!) Catholics ....in fact many are just as zealous about their faith and continue to believe that Peter or the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of God alone etc etc.
Also the Bible does call us to be DILIGENT in our faith and that involves critical thinking when it comes to other doctrines etc. This is not to be mistaken for JUDGEMENT PLEASE!!
This is the only way that straight faith and traditions can be kept.... As Copts...it offends us that you view us this way and we are sorry you do but I know the Coptic Church will always be just as critical with any doctrines and traditions that do not have orthodox origin; a right that Catholics have too etc etc...again, its a shame you feel that way..kinda hurtful tooo!!!
Although it may seem as the coptic orthodox church "judges" other beliefs, it's not and it seems that way simply because the devil is smart so he pops these questions in our minds to make us question our faith.
The church has never "judged" any religion. All the church does is merely look at this belief to see whether or not its in the same path as the Bible...if it isnt, then it's a wrong belief. Our church has fact and that's it. Everything is backed up by the scriptures, so when people come up with new doctrines and beliefs out of the sky, it is incorrect. And just because we don't agree or because we analyze other religions and break them down into facts, does not mean we're judging.
I know it seems as though we're stuck up and uptight, but when you know the truth of Jesus Christ and purity of our religion, we have every right to boast about it. When Mary said "for behold all generations will call me blessed", was she boasting? No she was merely stating facts. And when Jesus said "every tongue will confess and every knee will bow to me", He wasn't boasting, he was stating fact. So we're not boasting, we're stating true facts and then when the devil starts to mess with ur head, then it looks as though we're so stuck up and "judgemental".
I pray that you understand the Coptic Orthodox faith in it's truth. Good luck man! ;)
Hey yall I think the same too you guys. Now i understand that we should know and love our belief or part Christianity but we should also love the beliefs as well but in The Father The Son and in The Holy Spirit. Thanks because you guys made me learn a big lesson. You helped a lot. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
ok i saw this thread for teh second tyem ::) nd i had to say sumthing IQBAL I am behind you one hundred percent these are all generalisations and they are wrongnd by maing them you are judging others anotehr thing is i think teh reason you keep making these trheads is because your a fourteen year old kid tryen to get 3 red exclamation marksnest to your thread icon its really pathetic like IQbal said (lord forgive me for any judging i just did ) so please jsut stop and spare us and post back when you have a real conversation
Hi guys I agree with what all of you are saying, but I would just like to say that whenever you meet anyone from a wrong religion, dont tell them that they are wrong, unless you have a lot of wisdom and can are sure that they cannot prove you wrong.
iqbal,plz take it easy, ur right but just dont be harsh coptman has a question that many people wonder
i believe that if we dont critisize the other religions in their beliefs, then more and more people will fall into their lies. a priest once said that many people say(and iv heard them) that we all believe in the same god but different, everyone trys to justify their religion but at the same time not offend the opthers.
this is wrong, does the other gods do what our god does? was their god incarnated, no our god is different! our god is unique, noone can say we all share the same god, like muslims or budists etc.
we must tell people that this is the one and ONLY tru god no ands buts or anything. take it or leave it.
Iqbal, u said that it says in the scriptures that we were commanded to judge other beliefs, were in the bible does it say that ???
oo ya and to infasize on the phrase "origional christians." the word "orthodox" means, wel to brake it down ortho means straight and dox means belief, if u did not know.
Please reply with wahere in the bible it says we have the rite to judge other beliefs
Makari m not Iqbal and i think u misunderstood his point...he did not say JUDGE peoples beliefs at all ....WE ARE COMMANDED TO CLOSELY EXAMINE OUTSIDE DOCTRINES AS TO DETERMINE just how "orthodox" they are....as in if they come from the teachings of Christ etc. where in the Bible are we asked to do this? WELLL ENUFF PLACES.... check out thessolanions 2! (i think one of the verse references is 3:15...but read the whole chapter caz theres more than one reference...and context is important etc.) .... Many false doctrines arise..if the Church was NOT AWAKE AND WATCHING, it would be infested with false doctrines...even on the most fundamental things such as the nature of God (Divinity Humanity, etc)...so i think people should be more thankful...we are not to judge but we are to carefully examine that which is before us and discern to the best of our ability that which is tru... a for you defining what orthodox means..thats the WHOLE POINT...it means straight ..coming from one source and continuing on the straight path..being called Orthodox isnt good enuff which is why the church must take this name and apply it in finding false doctrines and condeming them as false! Jesus never hesitated to say when someone was in the wrong ..so we shoulf follow that example...giving all BROTHERLY ADMONISH (this part is KEY) its not like we're condeming anyone to hell or nuthing...we're just preserving our faith!
Here are the verses Makari...n trust there are much more
2 Thessalonians 3:6--> "But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Chrit, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."
2 Thesselonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
oo ya and to infasize on the phrase "origional christians." the word "orthodox" means, wel to brake it down ortho means straight and dox means belief, if u did not know.
I never said "Orthodox" meant original Christians, im quite well aware of the etymology of the word. Its a fact, that the Orthodox faith is the unadulterated faith of original Christianity. All the beliefs we hold today as Orthodox, were held by mainstream early Christianity, and confirmed by the universal apostolic church at the ecumenical councils.
Iqbal, u said that it says in the scriptures that we were commanded to judge other beliefs, were in the bible does it say that
In the context in which i made that statement, i was referring to the fact we are to refute/critisize/rebuke the heresies and promote the truth.
John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
In contrast to Matthew 7:1, the above verse demands moral and theological discernment in the context of obedient faith.
2 Timothy 2:14-16 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
The Orthodox study Bible actually puts the subheading: "Apostolic teaching vs. error" for verses 14-26
2 Timothy 2:24-26 :And a servant of the Lord must...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant...that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil..."
2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the Word!...Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching...for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..."
ok thats it i am sick of u guys saying we judge other beleifs we do judge other beleifs we judge whether they are the truth or not and of course we beleive we are teh best and rightest religion if we werent why would we believe in it if we beleived cathiolicism had more truth in it than orthodoxy wouldnt we have converted what is the use for excuse the rudeness dumb posts such as these! Iqbal's post was great and not only on thsi post check all the other tymes he has defended the faith on this subject uve already gotten the answers why do u keep asking ? just stop with this stupidity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think this thread has probably got a little heated. I think there is some merit to accusations that can be made against us when people say that we judge others. Its fair to say that we human beings have no right to judge anyone. I think the problem here is we are confusing assessing the Orthodoxy of doctrine (and defending it) and making value judgements on people based on that former criteria.
It would be eronious for us to say that we are not bearers of the holy and apostolic faith that was transmitted to us through the Apostle Mark. However it would be wrong to say that I am better than someone who does not have this gift or to say that we as a church community are better than some other church community. We do have a superior doctrine but that doesn't necessarily make us better Christians, this is not a matter for us to judge, that is God's business.
We do things that often may come close to judging or at least seem to be heading in that direction like when we boast about the 'coptic faith' or we say a group like the Jehovas Witnesses for example are 'sheep in wolves clothing' but I think these statements come from a necessity both to defend the truth that we have in our church and to make people appriciate the gift that orthodoxy is. It is undeniably foolish to take this attitude as a public face to show the world because no group has been comitted to our judgement. Each one of us has a belief and while our beliefs may not always warrent respect, God and our religon demands that we still respect people no matter what the believe and don't make their beliefs a reason to ridicule them.
It is right for us to be proud of our faith, it would be a tragedy if we did anything less, we have been handed the good apostolic doctine but this is not a reason to look down on, make fun or judge others. We should treat people in other religons with a lot of understanding and compassion and let them know that we don't think of them as being lesser people because they aren't Christians. God is the lover of mankind and loves everyone equally regardless of how obedient they are and we are called to the same love regardless of the religon of the person.
In certain religons like Mormonism for example they have doctrines that involve shedding people blood for remission of sins because they believe that some sins won't be covered by Christs blood. These beliefs are destructive and it is important for us to defend if not just the truth but poor mormons from being subject to a faith that practices things like this.
We also need to understand that sometimes in church if we do say that a group is bad, we do it so that we can warn people from joining them because what they teach is bad. It like your parents may say to you stay away from such and such a gang because its bad. This is obvioudly not a public face that you take with these people because if it is bad for us to join a gang, it is also bad for its members to be in it and we have to deal with them in a way that would convince them not to be members of it. This is judging what the gang does, not the gang or its members and its what we are expected to do as a church.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has the right from God to test, expose and rebuke every teaching under the illumination of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible according to St John Beloved, "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. I believe it is the right of all the churches to do the same and if this right was exercised before, we would not have to have hundreds of Protostants Churchs each one with different doctrines.
The bible tells us to speak against false doctrine and teh reason we continue to judge other religions is because they are wrong we dont judge the religion we judge the doctrine thats two different things think about that
[quote author=Safaa link=board=1;threadid=959;start=15#msg17767 date=1105295901] The Coptic Orthodox Church has the right from God to test, expose and rebuke every teaching under the illumination of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible according to St John Beloved, "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. I believe it is the right of all the churches to do the same and if this right was exercised before, we would not have to have hundreds of Protostants Churchs each one with different doctrines.
What I'm saying has nothing to do with restricting us from defending the truth. What I'm saying is we have to be consistant with scripture. If we are asked to defend the truth we are also told not to judge. St. Paul says judge no on before the time and even goes as far as saying I do not even judge myself. When I say judge, I'm speaking not about condemning doctrines, I'm talking about condemning people or groups that have beliefs different to our own. To ignore the differences we have would be to say that it doesn't matter to God, only to people and thats something that the church understands to be false. We have been handed the truth and it has to be preserved but judgement of people or people in any extent has been withheld from us.
but judgement of people or people in any extent has been withheld from us.
I agree... but if you hate a religion you are in a way judging it... and hating its beliefs.... for example, I hate Islam, but I love Muslims.... so to me I think we have the right to say a religion is bad, but no right to say the people of this religion are bad... so in a way we have the right to judge (by judge I mean, to say bad or good) religions, but still we cannot condemn a religion.
but judgement of people or people in any extent has been withheld from us.
I agree... but if you hate a religion you are in a way judging it... and hating its beliefs.... for example, I hate Islam, but I love Muslims.... so to me I think we have the right to say a religion is bad, but no right to say the people of this religion are bad... so in a way we have the right to judge (by judge I mean, to say bad or good) religions, but still we cannot condemn a religion.
That is correct Bishoy, that is why I was saying we only do this privatly among ourselves. Its not nice for people to hear things like this about they're belifs but we have to tell this to our congregation to protect them from falling into heresy so what we say depends on who we talk to.
Comments
2 Thessalonians 3:6--> "But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Chrit, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."
2 Thesselonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
(there are many more...but for the sake of time etc.)
Christianity is a loving religion...No doubt...but there is nothing wrong with being zealous about the Orthodox faith. In fact Coptic Man, Id like to remind you that SOME(no generalization there Iqbal!) Catholics ....in fact many are just as zealous about their faith and continue to believe that Peter or the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of God alone etc etc.
Also the Bible does call us to be DILIGENT in our faith and that involves critical thinking when it comes to other doctrines etc. This is not to be mistaken for JUDGEMENT PLEASE!!
This is the only way that straight faith and traditions can be kept.... As Copts...it offends us that you view us this way and we are sorry you do but I know the Coptic Church will always be just as critical with any doctrines and traditions that do not have orthodox origin; a right that Catholics have too etc etc...again, its a shame you feel that way..kinda hurtful tooo!!!
Although it may seem as the coptic orthodox church "judges" other beliefs, it's not and it seems that way simply because the devil is smart so he pops these questions in our minds to make us question our faith.
The church has never "judged" any religion. All the church does is merely look at this belief to see whether or not its in the same path as the Bible...if it isnt, then it's a wrong belief. Our church has fact and that's it. Everything is backed up by the scriptures, so when people come up with new doctrines and beliefs out of the sky, it is incorrect. And just because we don't agree or because we analyze other religions and break them down into facts, does not mean we're judging.
I know it seems as though we're stuck up and uptight, but when you know the truth of Jesus Christ and purity of our religion, we have every right to boast about it. When Mary said "for behold all generations will call me blessed", was she boasting? No she was merely stating facts. And when Jesus said "every tongue will confess and every knee will bow to me", He wasn't boasting, he was stating fact. So we're not boasting, we're stating true facts and then when the devil starts to mess with ur head, then it looks as though we're so stuck up and "judgemental".
I pray that you understand the Coptic Orthodox faith in it's truth. Good luck man! ;)
GOD BLESS ALL! :-*
ok i saw this thread for teh second tyem ::) nd i had to say sumthing IQBAL I am behind you one hundred percent these are all generalisations and they are wrongnd by maing them you are judging others anotehr thing is i think teh reason you keep making these trheads is because your a fourteen year old kid tryen to get 3 red exclamation marksnest to your thread icon its really pathetic like IQbal said (lord forgive me for any judging i just did ) so please jsut stop and spare us and post back when you have a real conversation
::) :o ::)
Aghape and No offense,
Chris
coptman has a question that many people wonder
i believe that if we dont critisize the other religions in their beliefs, then more and more people will fall into their lies.
a priest once said that many people say(and iv heard them) that we all believe in the same god but different, everyone trys to justify their religion but at the same time not offend the opthers.
this is wrong, does the other gods do what our god does? was their god incarnated, no our god is different!
our god is unique, noone can say we all share the same god, like muslims or budists etc.
we must tell people that this is the one and ONLY tru god no ands buts or anything. take it or leave it.
oo ya and to infasize on the phrase "origional christians." the word "orthodox" means, wel to brake it down ortho means straight and dox means belief, if u did not know.
Please reply with wahere in the bible it says we have the rite to judge other beliefs
2 Thessalonians 3:6--> "But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Chrit, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."
2 Thesselonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
In contrast to Matthew 7:1, the above verse demands moral and theological discernment in the context of obedient faith.
2 Timothy 2:14-16 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
The Orthodox study Bible actually puts the subheading: "Apostolic teaching vs. error" for verses 14-26
2 Timothy 2:24-26 :And a servant of the Lord must...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant...that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil..."
2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the Word!...Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching...for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..."
just stop with this stupidity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aghape,
chris
I think this thread has probably got a little heated. I think there is some merit to accusations that can be made against us when people say that we judge others. Its fair to say that we human beings have no right to judge anyone. I think the problem here is we are confusing assessing the Orthodoxy of doctrine (and defending it) and making value judgements on people based on that former criteria.
It would be eronious for us to say that we are not bearers of the holy and apostolic faith that was transmitted to us through the Apostle Mark. However it would be wrong to say that I am better than someone who does not have this gift or to say that we as a church community are better than some other church community. We do have a superior doctrine but that doesn't necessarily make us better Christians, this is not a matter for us to judge, that is God's business.
We do things that often may come close to judging or at least seem to be heading in that direction like when we boast about the 'coptic faith' or we say a group like the Jehovas Witnesses for example are 'sheep in wolves clothing' but I think these statements come from a necessity both to defend the truth that we have in our church and to make people appriciate the gift that orthodoxy is. It is undeniably foolish to take this attitude as a public face to show the world because no group has been comitted to our judgement. Each one of us has a belief and while our beliefs may not always warrent respect, God and our religon demands that we still respect people no matter what the believe and don't make their beliefs a reason to ridicule them.
It is right for us to be proud of our faith, it would be a tragedy if we did anything less, we have been handed the good apostolic doctine but this is not a reason to look down on, make fun or judge others. We should treat people in other religons with a lot of understanding and compassion and let them know that we don't think of them as being lesser people because they aren't Christians. God is the lover of mankind and loves everyone equally regardless of how obedient they are and we are called to the same love regardless of the religon of the person.
In certain religons like Mormonism for example they have doctrines that involve shedding people blood for remission of sins because they believe that some sins won't be covered by Christs blood. These beliefs are destructive and it is important for us to defend if not just the truth but poor mormons from being subject to a faith that practices things like this.
We also need to understand that sometimes in church if we do say that a group is bad, we do it so that we can warn people from joining them because what they teach is bad. It like your parents may say to you stay away from such and such a gang because its bad. This is obvioudly not a public face that you take with these people because if it is bad for us to join a gang, it is also bad for its members to be in it and we have to deal with them in a way that would convince them not to be members of it. This is judging what the gang does, not the gang or its members and its what we are expected to do as a church.
I hope that this helps.
God bless,
CS
aghape,
chris
The Coptic Orthodox Church has the right from God to test, expose and rebuke every teaching under the illumination of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible according to St John Beloved, "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. I believe it is the right of all the churches to do the same and if this right was exercised before, we would not have to have hundreds of Protostants Churchs each one with different doctrines.
What I'm saying has nothing to do with restricting us from defending the truth. What I'm saying is we have to be consistant with scripture. If we are asked to defend the truth we are also told not to judge. St. Paul says judge no on before the time and even goes as far as saying I do not even judge myself. When I say judge, I'm speaking not about condemning doctrines, I'm talking about condemning people or groups that have beliefs different to our own. To ignore the differences we have would be to say that it doesn't matter to God, only to people and thats something that the church understands to be false. We have been handed the truth and it has to be preserved but judgement of people or people in any extent has been withheld from us.
God bless,
CS
That is correct Bishoy, that is why I was saying we only do this privatly among ourselves. Its not nice for people to hear things like this about they're belifs but we have to tell this to our congregation to protect them from falling into heresy so what we say depends on who we talk to.
God bless,
CS