Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
NOW AVAILABLE: The French Altar Deacon Responses Production!
Agape everyone,
The Coptic Orthodox Choir in France presents its first release: The Altar Deacon Responses.
This production contains all the responses in french of the Raising of Incense and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.
Click here to view a video on this production and hear audio samples.
The CD is available in our coptic churches in France.
God bless!
The Coptic Orthodox Choir in France presents its first release: The Altar Deacon Responses.
This production contains all the responses in french of the Raising of Incense and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.
Click here to view a video on this production and hear audio samples.
The CD is available in our coptic churches in France.
God bless!
Comments
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
[coptic][/coptic][coptic][/coptic][coptic]Oujai qen P[C[/coptic]
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posting: now I am not sure if that is a subconscious attack on the Coptic language or what? Please don't try to convince me, or rather convince yourself that saying [coptic]icta;yte metavobou :eou - epi`proceu,y `cta;yte - twbh hina `nte V] - acpazec;e allylouc envilimaty - nyetws maroutaouo `nniran [/coptic]are things very difficult for deacons to understand in Coptic. In fact those deacons that should serve in the altar should be of a higher rank, and already well-learned in the hymns of the church as well as the rites, and have the spirit of discernment. Why is Coptic becoming so difficult nowadays? I will quote what servant33 said in another topic:
"Q: "Why do we have to sing if we don't understand?"
A: The better question is "Why don't you understand if you have to sing?"
The priest in my church (in Newcastle) happens to be a monk, went down to Egypt a couple of weeks ago, and when he came back he told me he was sad that he went to the monastery that he used to serve (and be served) in, and you know what? He told me he was sad because he found out they scrapped singing the Liturgy readings in Coptic, and now they just read it out in Arabic. I really can't understand what is happening to the COPTIC Orthodox church...
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I honestly believe that we should know the three liturgies
in our original language THEN do what ever you want.
It is a great idea but it is directing us to our own enjoyment of the liturgy
when we should be praying and not necesarily
hear it in the language that we are more familiare with.
Instead, I think it would be better to know who to read, write and speak in Coptic.
Coptic is a beautiful liturgical language but we can't expect everyone - especially newcomers to the church - to be fluent in it. If everything was in Coptic, no newcomers would be able to pray the liturgy and many people would be frustrated at having to cross a huge barrier of learning coptic just to be able to pray or partake in the beauty of the Coptic Orthodox Church. It would make church seem elitist and many people would be discouraged from coming - which is exactly the opposite of Christ's intent.
how good is everyone's greek?!
Εὐλογία Κυρίου καὶ ἔλεος ἔλθοι ἐπὶ σέ.
I am not really sure how you got this piece of information from. I may not be the best in patrology, or church history, but I think what you are referring to is a totally and utterly different argument. I don't believe the Liturgy was essentially Greek, and translated into Coptic from them. I did hear however, that there were certain parts that that applied to (for some reason I remember that holding true with Gregorian rather than either Cyrilian, or Basilian liturgies). Please note that St. Mark came to Egypt to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He taught us the liturgy as we know it now (with some modifications of course) especially that he authored the Cyrilian liturgy (St. Cyril adding bits and pieces onto the original teaching of St. Mark). I don't think St. Mark, or St. Cyril for that matter wrote the liturgy in Greek. Even if parts were taken in those days from the Greek liturgy (which I am not really sure about, because our church and theirs were established around the same time with no existence of internet, or recording machines, ... etc), the Copts translated it for a reason; and what was that reason? Establishing the COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH on the see of St. Mark. Please also note another thing: it is said that the three liturgies were purely Coptic till the days of St. Cyril IV (father of reform), and in those days reconciliation was attempted with the Greek Orthodox church, and therefore the church adopted the deacon responses from them (essentially the same, or probably translated into Greek), a move which was not approved by all the Copts at that time - but eventually it did happen, and was accepted.
In the same vein, if you would like to sing all those prayers in French, you have the French Orthodox church. You have the British Orthodox church; you have the Indian, ... and so on and so forth.
Waiting for your views.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
ok here's a story. One time our abouna was away and we had a bishop come and pray the liturgy with us - and it was an amazing liturgy. He did the whole thing (actually probably about 75%, but you get the point) in Coptic and the whole time his eyes were closed and his face was tilted to heaven and I even saw a tear come while he was praying Je Nai Nan (I was lucky I was on the alter that week). Anyways, after the liturgy, I was surprised to see that so many of the Taunts were furious because they attended the liturgy (which of course was extra long) and couldn't understand a single thing since it was fully Coptic. They were so frustrated after attending what I thought was an amazing liturgy. And when I was talking to my mom back at home about a time when a bishop prayed the whole liturgy in Coptic, it elicited the exact same response! I think from the perspective of deacons, who have gone to alhan class regularly, learned coptic while we were still young, and gone to liturgy every week, etc. etc. miss out on that kind of frustration and we don't really see how other people can't follow with something that seems so simple in a deacon's eyes. The Coptic church has so many great things and I think a fortified language barrier only prevents people from experiencing it. We can still have a taste of the language and capture the essence of the Coptic Orthodox Church without having a liturgy that is fully Coptic.
As for the greek liturgy, I'm not one to ask about church history. I think I read it being originally greek in a book somewhere, but I'll let you know if I find a link.
Pray for me
servant33
What comes to my mind is what Paul the apostle said, which goes along the lines of "we don't understand what we are praying for or with but the Holy Spirit teaches us in unutterable murmurs".
at least we need the other language for the purposes of reaching out to those around us. in egypt and sudan, there are lots of people who don't have a coptic background and who only understand arabic. God loves them. similarly, in france there are lots of people who are spiritually thirsty, and because of the aggressive secularisation of the last >100 years, have no idea about Christianity and can easily follow other religions (i know for a fact this is happening) especially if they wander into a church one day and don't understand what is going on.
by the way, what i said in greek was
May the blessing and the mercy of the Lord be with you.
:)
@all : Many thanks for these encouraging posts.
@abanoub2000 : for the moment, you can buy the CD in our coptic churches in France. But I will contact you through pm to see together how you could get yours. We didn’t plan yet for selling it online. We have to think about transactions and shipping matters, supply management. This announcement on tasbeha and on coptichymns was to see first if there is a need.
@ophadece : Thanks for exposing your point of view because your first post wasn’t explicit.
Before saying anything, be sure that I won’t try to convince you of anything. It’s not my purpose, and for several reasons, because all those who took part in this service agree with you and are happy some people still think this way. Where went the golden age of coptic language where families managed to use it at home, not just during church services?
But as several members said, praying in french or in the local language is for newcomers, for people who don’t understand coptic, for children (they all don’t have the same faculty for learning a new language). A few replies stressed the point of understanding the liturgy, I want to say it’s not just understand what’s going on but and that’s I see more important, to participate in this liturgy. Before one said it, both go together. And trying to educate all the Copts so that they may read, speak and understand the Coptic Language is a difficult task.
That’s a great topic but if I were you, I would create a specific topic on it. This doesn’t mean anything about its place here. On the contrary, it’s just to emphasize this subject because it’s a bit hidden here with the production announcement. Maybe other members would be interest and would like to discuss about it but don’t see it. It’s a pity.
I would like to give you (not just you ophadece, I mean everyone) an overview on the origins of this project and its reasons. It’s not for defending this production. It’s just to clear certain points.
We don’t pray in french since today. We pray in french since its early years of establishement, more than 30 years now, beside most of the liturgy is prayed in arabic and coptic. Those who know the responses in french, know them also in arabic and coptic. So do not worry, we do not want to say all prayers in french. Sorry to say it, but it has no taste. When the liturgy is prayed in coptic, we, as deacons, can’t explain you our feelings towards this moment in paradise. In the same way, this doesn’t mean that coptic is some sort of heavenly and divine language. The language which takes us to heaven is that of love and the Holy Spirit which acts in the Church. Coptic language takes part of our identity.
The differents goals of this production is to solve firstly an issue we face. In 30 years of service, the first translation was reviewed but wasn’t totally replaced. So some deacons pray with the old translation and the youngest with the new one. It means four languages : coptic, arabic, old french, new french. This release was done to « unify » translations or in other words, put an end to the old translation, in order to have all the deacons in coptic churches in France saying the same replies.
The second which is the logically result, several translations mean several tunes. I don’t have to go further. Our equation was simple : A production = Same translation for all = Same tune for all.
I know I have written too much… and I apologize for it.
Thanks for taking the time to read all this post.
May God bless you and remember us in your prayers.
great production, it turned out awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope it benefits many deacons of the future generations in france, that they all may pray in unity in the language that suits them the most (whether coptic or french).
As to those who oppose replying in other languages besides coptic during liturgy, just a few small comments on top of what has already been said.
1) most litanies in the liturgy are not even coptic to begin with (anything that starts with the word "pros" for instance). Do you believe we should re-write these responses?
2) large parts of the liturgy are prayed by the clergy in other languages than coptic, which in turns requires the deacons to answer in the same language (whether it be arabic, english, french etc). Even if you disagree with the quantity of coptic vs other languages used, at least you should recognize the need for the responses to be standardized in these languages.
3) Unity is needed so that the younger deacons learn to pray in a good spirit, with vocal harmony instead of what we often see: just reading the responses, often or not with mistakes.
As a final remark, i know all the deacons who were involved in this project personally and they love coptic hymns with all their hearts. This project wasnt done to belittle (the use of) the coptic language, not at all. It was done out of need to standardize and optimize the way people pray the responses in france, which they already do.
I hope to hear the recordings of the congregation responses soon ;D
Thanks very much for replying to me. I am sorry that over and over again I do sound like a judgmental hypocrite, as pharisees were described by Jesus. Anyway there is something you have to understand - I used to think the same way that I am against now, and only because I started learning hymns old enough (when I was 20, and still learning of course), and because I was blessed to be allowed to serve in beautiful churches in Egypt and the UK where the Coptic hymns were given prioriy, I do appear as such now, but I really do hope that every body realises the beauty and the charm of the Coptic hymns (even if it were only deacon responses; still it was done for the Coptic language).
@ mabsoota:
You said: "especially if they wander into a church one day and don't understand what is going on"
My reply to that is that you could notice this yourself I am sure, something which I am very against, the usage of projectors nowadays. There is no excuse for nobody to say that they don't understand. Every thing is clear in front of them on the screens, even if they don't know how to read Coptic. Obviously without opening a whole new can of worms, my disagreement comes from the fact that it distracts every body from looking at the altar, at the Body and Blood of our Lord, which should be the "only" aim for Christians to go to the Liturgy (similarly kholagies and books, and I did mention that before in another thread - ideally Christians remember all hymns by heart without the need for aides memoires; YES YES I know that is very difficult in this day and age, and I am not making it tougher and tougher for ourselves, but I am just stating what I believe is a slightly wrong practice).
@ tifou:
You said: "praying in french or in the local language is for newcomers, for people who don’t understand coptic, for children (they all don’t have the same faculty for learning a new language)"
Certainly, you know this better than I do, but children learn any new language better than adults; way way better in fact. Newcomers are not expected to learn Coptic, or Coptic hymns straightaway. In fact, our forefathers used to burden newcomes with three years of just observing before they can get baptised in the Coptic Orthodox Church. During these three years, they are tested for the faith, and they learn the ins and outs of the church, something that I can't even claim to have understood as far as only 10%.
You go to Ukrainian, or Russian Orthodox churches in France - do they sing in French? I doubt it. We have examples in the UK for Ethiopian, Indian, Ukrainian, and of course Greek (as far as I know) singing in their native languages. There are newcomers of course; English, but they go to those churches and they learn, and I personally know a consultant of mine who does go, and his friends are practising.
Yes, maybe with Coptic it is different since it is not the native language anymore, but trust me if I say this: even the Greeks pray in a language they don't understand; even though it is Greek language, but it is olden Greek that they don't use in their every day language anymore - much like Latin used in English liturgies sometimes.
You said "When the liturgy is prayed in coptic, we, as deacons, can’t explain you our feelings towards this moment in paradise"
I would be bold enough to say (hopefully without much exaggeration as I am used to doing) that this is one of the most important if not THE most important aspect of using Coptic hymns. In contrast to whatever language that maybe used in church, those hymns take you very high into heaven, both spiritually and physically, and I am not joking, but I don't have examples off the top of my head. I know British people who are used to attending the Coptic church, especially during the Holy Week. I guess there is no need to expand on that.
Deacons have a great responsibility that they are not aware of. Probably we are just too lazy, and too busy with other things. It is surely something that we have to give account for when we are faced with our last hour standing in front of our Merciful Lord. If we don't teach the congregation Coptic, then at least teach them hymns. If we don't teach them hymns, then at least teach them to love hymns. If we don't teach them to love hymns, then at least teach their ears to like hymns. If we don't do any of these, then what a pity we are...
You said "That’s a great topic but if I were you, I would create a specific topic on it. This doesn’t mean anything about its place here"
Too late now. It will be unfair to disregard all the previous posts anyway, but I may ask you to change the subject of this thread, as you were the one who started it. Or maybe we can ask one of the moderators to transfer it to another section, and change the subject line, but I guess it has to come from you
@ Hos Erof:
You said "most litanies in the liturgy are not even coptic to begin with (anything that starts with the word "pros" for instance). Do you believe we should re-write these responses?"
You may not have read what I wrote earlier. I guess you are talking about responses and not litanies as such that the priests pray, but what I wrote earlier is that those were Coptic in the first place, and they were changed into Greek in the era of Pope Cyril IV (the father of reform). No I am not by any means suggesting rewriting them, because this is how they were handed down to us, but I for one don't understand the Greek, but teaching myself to at least understand what I am reading during the Liturgy, and nothing more. Not very difficult for (dare I say again) every body who left Egypt and lived in another country being forced, or out of their own freewill, to learn a new language - but Coptic???? Hey, no... "it's a dead language". We all know that is completely wrong.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]