Stoning in the Bible - Difference with islam?

Zoxsasi

I'd like to paste a few quotes from the Bible concerning stoning of others that was mainly carried out in the Old Testament.

When people rebuke the Koran because it condones stoning of adulterers, non believers, whatever, then what is the difference, in your eyes, with Christianity????


Am I missing something? Is God literally telling the People of Israel that they SHOULD be stoned - they deserve to be stoned, or that they HAVE TO be stoned?


So, the God of the Bible also advocated stoning? So what then is the difference with the Koran?

(sorry, corrected for spelling mistakes)

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For touching Mount Sinai

Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13

For taking "accursed things"

Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26

For cursing or blaspheming

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For animals (like an ox that gores a human)

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

For worshipping other gods

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

For disobeying parents

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

For witches and wizards

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

For giving your children to Molech

Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

For breaking the Sabbath

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

For cursing the king

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

Abounasarecool

There is a difference...bc this was part of the old testament & the old covenant...but Christ came and fulfilled that covenant. He forgives sins and says "He who is without sin among you first throw a stone at her."
Idk thats just a little comment...not sure if that answered your question or not lol
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Mt 5:17).

Abounasarecool

actually i think i read the question wrong lol
nvm about my answer lol not sure if it makes sense

Zoxsasi

I see that 83 people have read this thread, and yet no one has responded.

I hope Fr. Peter can help with this question.

peterfarrington

I will post about this later.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9814.msg120190#msg120190 date=1286274035]
I will post about this later.


Thank you Fr. Peter,

Please remember that although I wish to understand why God commanded stoning for the reasons given, this question is not just about "stoning" - it is comparing our God with the 'god' of Islam concerning stoning.

Please consider this in your answer.

Thanks in advance

Sevant of Jesus Christ

Zoxsasi I totally agree with you! The Old Testament is difficult to understand in terms of the law and why it was done. Thank you father Peter for researching this for us. God bless us all, and guide us to the understanding of the law and the prophets. Please pray for me.

peterfarrington

These are just some thoughts and reflections. They are not any sort of definitive answer.

It seems to me that we must not seek to excuse the Old Testament because we do not think that it is compatible with the New Testament. Rather we must surely understand that it describes above all the developing and rather stumbling experiences of the people of God in their vacillating relationship with God. I mean that it describes people slowly being led out of darkness into light. Continually falling back into darkness, and finding that even the light is hazy and unclear.

We must also understand that the people of the Old Testament are a people without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and without the experience of union with God. They are people on whom the Holy Spirit rests on occasion, and a people whose relationship with God is external rather then internal. It is not clear to the people of the Old Testament what has become clear through the incarnation.

What I am trying to say is that the time before Christ is substantially and spiritually different to time after Christ. The incarnation is the central and pivotal moment in the history of the Universe. The prophets of the Old Testament spoke in shadows which only become clear with the incarnation. The partial revelation of God was expressed in symbols and rituals, and the purity of the community of God, the family of Abraham, and then the people of Israel, required external measures, since the inner purity which was to come in Christ was prefigured by an external purity of the Law.

The Old Testament should not be judged according to the New Testament. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. It is in continuity with it, but it is as different as day light and the light of dawn. Both are light, but the one is still filled with shadows and indistinct shapes while in the other there is no confusion.

What are the criticisms of the Old Testament instructions on stoning?

These are not always explicit.

i. All of the nations of the world practiced capital punishment. It was nothing unusual. Nor is there anything intrinsically wrong with capital punishment itself. The problem we have in Western societies is that it is almost always the poor with the rubbish lawyers who get found guilty, while the rich with the best lawyers and contacts get away scot-free. I am personally in favour of capital punishment in extremis, but I am extremely hesitant about when or if it should ever be applied.

ii. The Jewish practice of capital punishment was EXTREMELY cautious. Indeed it has been shown that the modern USA executes many more people than would have been executed under the strict Jewish legal system. There was a requirement for almost unassailable guilt. This is why, when our Lord declared his divinity in front of the Jews they shouted out, 'What more do we need, we have all heard him'. It was the fact that there were many witnesses which was the issue.

iii. Those issues which were liable to the capital penalty were not, as in other cultures, mostly to do with property and power, but were to do with God and the community. So those who harmed the honour of God or the well-being of the community were those who might, in extremis, suffer the penalty of separation from the community of God by death. Indeed unlike as in other cultures, and even our own in the 21st century, all were equal before this law. It was not a law which the rich could evade.

Now it seems to me that in the time after Christ we do not say that people do not deserve the penalty of death, but we do notice that many of those crimes which we have made capital are not those against God and the community, but against property and those in power. It seems to me that these have not been the reasons that the Jewish community sensed were important for the purity of the community and the honour of God. And it also seems to me that many of those sentenced to the death penalty in our own times are found guilty with much less of the required evidence than was the case in the Old Testament.

So in the Old Testament the people of God grasped the shadowy idea that there was a need to preserve the honour of God, and the purity of the people of God. They somehow understood that the capital penalty should never be used for crimes against property or power, but only for those against God and the community. They also somehow understood that there was a need for undoubted evidence and that the penalty should not be applied capriciously or for other ends than the wellbeing of the people of God.

This was in marked contrast to the communities around them. Perhaps we feel that they had not learned all that we know about God. But that is only stating a fact. They had not learned all that we have been taught about Christ. Yet in their undoubted lack of a fulness of knowledge they had still managed to develop in a direction which was better and more godly than that of the heathen nations.

Now perhaps some will say that God does not will the use of capital punishment. But I do not agree. I believe that we are mistaken if we think that all people, if only given enough time, will always repent and seek God. This seems to me to be rather a protestant opinion. Certainly in the Old Testament period the people of Israel were using capital punishment in the most merciful and restricted manner of all the nations. Indeed the Mishnah seems to suggest that the formal practice was that a very large rock would be dropped from a height onto the person to be executed so that the punishment was instantaneous.

The Law was the tutor of the people of Israel. It led them towards the sense of the holiness of God, the uniqueness of God, the power and authority of God. It could not teach everything about God. The prophets could not teach everything about God. Only God Himself in Christ could reveal God to men in His fulness. The Law was a strict taskmaster. That which was unholy, that which damaged the community of God, which was the witness in the world of God, needed to be cut out. In the time of the Old Testament this required a physical act of capital punishment in some cases. The Law worked in the context of the cultures of the times and improved and divinised to some extent the culture of the Jews, but it began with a culture which was related to that of the nations around about.

In the time of the Church we also express these same standards. This is what excommunication is. Indeed we must ask, what is worse, the use of capital punishment or separation from the life of Christ in the Church? Both are deadly serious. Both are an expression in time and in the world of a spiritual reality.

Therefore in the Old Testament I do not think that the death penalty is an aberration.

So where does that leave the Muslim use of the death penalty. It seems to me that it fails because the Muslim community is not the people of God, and in the time of the Church the purity of the community of God is not preserved by use of the capital penalty, but by other ecclesial sanctions. We are not a human nation, but a divine nation. Therefore we cannot preserve the integrity of the people by capital penalties because the kingdom to which we belong is not a human kingdom, but is the kingdom of God. There is a different law, the law of Christ.

We cannot ask the law of the United Kingdom to preserve the holiness of the people of God, in the way in which the priestly authorities in the Jewish kingdom could expect the law of the nation to be the law of God. And so we cannot and do not ask the state to execute those who have broken Church law. (This has happened in the past of course, and was the cause of many of our Father's martyrdoms).

Now it is possible for a Muslim state to execute people for breaking the law of the state, but it cannot execute people for breaking the law of God because Allah is not God. And the Muslim apologists cannot use the example of the Old Testament because we are now in a new age which they reject. This is the age of the Spirit and the law of Christ written on men's hearts. The community of God is now a spiritual one. There is no earthly nation of God, there is no possibility of Christian armies bringing the Gospel at the point of a sword. Therefore the external means of preserving the purity of the people of God have been transformed into spiritual ones.

We now know that we ALL deserve death, and we find mercy.

The Muslim practice of stoning is not even as developed as that of the Jews. We know that it is often used against the poor and defenseless. We know that it is used to subjugate and bring fear, not to safeguard the community. How many Muslim woman have been stoned to death for crimes of rape committed against them? Yet the Jewish law safeguarded the weak and defenseless. A woman who had been raped was a victim not a criminal.

The Muslim practice denies the spiritual. Everything is dealt with by external law. But Christ has fulfilled all genuine external Law and has brought a spiritual law.

The Muslim practice is worthy of condemnation because:

i. The weak are disproportionately the subjects of such punishment.

ii. The use of such punishment goes far beyond what was sanctioned by God in the Old Testament.

iii. The use of such punishment denies the incarnation.

iv. The use of such punishment denies the universality of our sin.

v. The Muslim community is not the people of God, as the Jewish people were the people of God, and as the Church is now the universal people of God. The people of God see a development of understanding. The Muslim community is a step backwards into the past and therefore away from the will of God.

vi. God has taught us that we should consider mercy as well as justice.

These are only some thoughts. I'd be interested in comments so I can think with you some more. I don't consider the Muslim practice and that of the Jewish people in the Old Testament at all comparable. That age has passed. If we try to live in it then we are not following God at all. This is why a Jew who denies Christ cannot say that he is just following God according to the Old Testament. Christ has come and revaled God more clearly.

Father Peter

Zoxsasi

Thank you Fr. Peter.

This was a brilliant response. Please feel free to add to it.

Just a small comment though:

It is clearly dangerous to just go off and read the Bible without the spiritual/apostolic traditions that help you understand the meaning and the context. I think a lot of problems result from this.

epchois_nai_nan

[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9814.msg120253#msg120253 date=1286395369]
ii. The Jewish practice of capital punishment was EXTREMELY cautious. Indeed it has been shown that the modern USA executes many more people than would have been executed under the strict Jewish legal system. There was a requirement for almost unassailable guilt. This is why, when our Lord declared his divinity in front of the Jews they shouted out, 'What more do we need, we have all heard him'. It was the fact that there were many witnesses which was the issue.


Do you know of any other sources that confirm this Father? I've often heard it and would be very interested to read a little bit more about it.

Thank you

God bless and pray for me

Zoxsasi

[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=9814.msg120308#msg120308 date=1286449927]
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9814.msg120253#msg120253 date=1286395369]
ii. The Jewish practice of capital punishment was EXTREMELY cautious. Indeed it has been shown that the modern USA executes many more people than would have been executed under the strict Jewish legal system. There was a requirement for almost unassailable guilt. This is why, when our Lord declared his divinity in front of the Jews they shouted out, 'What more do we need, we have all heard him'. It was the fact that there were many witnesses which was the issue.


Do you know of any other sources that confirm this Father? I've often heard it and would be very interested to read a little bit more about it.

Thank you

God bless and pray for me


I would second this comment. I've also heard the exact same thing, but it was from theologians.

Please could you provide references from this?

Thanks

peterfarrington

This is a VERY interesting a scholarly work on the subject, and one of the texts I studied.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hHmi8SoZ_9MC&pg=PA206&dq=stoning+old+testament&hl=en&ei=L9yqTL2pG4yN4gadkK3KCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=stoning old testament&f=false

I note even reading again now that in later times the Jewish authorities would actually use almost any excuse to mitigate the requirement for the death sentence as they were so concerned not to execute an innocent person.

A reference in this volume says that the Jews came generally to understand capital offences as being the most serious, but also not absolutely requiring the penalty of death.

It was David Llewellyn, in his study, 'Restoring the Death Penalty: Proceed with caution', who tried to compare the sentences of death in the US with the Biblical requirements and determined that the US was more ready to use the death penalty that Israel. You can find this reference on page 207 of the text linked to above.

This whole book seems extremely interesting. I have read most of chapter 5. I may buy the book.

Father Peter

epchois_nai_nan

Wow that is VERY interesting - thank you very much :)

Zoxsasi

[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=9814.msg120313#msg120313 date=1286456809]
Wow that is VERY interesting - thank you very much :)


Always remember who asked the question.

epchois_nai_nan

Hehe sorry thank you too Sasi :D

Zoxsasi

[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=9814.msg120315#msg120315 date=1286457520]
Hehe sorry thank you too Sasi :D


You're most welcome.