Use of "modern English" in the Divine Liturgy and other services

joseph.vandenbrink

Christ is in our midst! 

I am an EO Christian, from the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, and we use what is commonly dubbed, "King James English," however of the praise services and Agpeya prayers I've attended (and read) I notice that more modern translation is used in the services.  Of course I have my preference toward the old English, especially when the prayers/hymns are directed directly to God, but I am unclear as to why the Coptic Church (like the EO Orthodox Church in America. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, and Greek Orthodox Church of America) use modern English?  Also, is there an Agpeya published for official use in proper (old) English?

Thank you, and I look forward to seeing how this discussion unfolds. 


Pray for me, a sinner.
joseph

minatasgeel

[quote author=joseph.vandenbrink link=topic=9905.msg121304#msg121304 date=1288049471]
Christ is in our midst! 

I am an EO Christian, from the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, and we use what is commonly dubbed, "King James English," however of the praise services and Agpeya prayers I've attended (and read) I notice that more modern translation is used in the services.  Of course I have my preference toward the old English, especially when the prayers/hymns are directed directly to God, but I am unclear as to why the Coptic Church (like the EO Orthodox Church in America. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, and Greek Orthodox Church of America) use modern English?  Also, is there an Agpeya published for official use in proper (old) English?

a symbol answer is that it's all about understanding....even in hymns. everything we say in church is towards God, directly or indirectly. how can we use a language that is not understood by ppl. i am only considering the printed translation of the text.

joseph.vandenbrink

Hi Mina,

Thank you for your reply.  Please forgive me, I did not mean to communicate that there are things that are not communicated to God in worship.  You are surely right: all things we say and do are to and for the Lord, at all times.  I have also been told that by EO Christians who use modern English, but then have no problem turning around and using a KJV Bible.  I for sure support having the services in language that is understandable--it is anathema to use a language that is not understood by the people, according to the Fathers of the EO and OO.  I guess I was looking for a little more. 

I suppose to be a bit more specific in my approach, I could use an EO prayer as an example.  They are not in complicated English, but when addressing God, they use "Thee," "Thou," and "Thy" instead of "you":

From the priests' prayer at the Cherubikon during the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:
"No one who is bound with the desires and pleasures of the flesh is worthy to approach or draw near or to serve Thee, O King of Glory: for to serve Thee is a great and terrible thing even to the Heavenly Powers.  Nevertheless, through Thine unspeakable and boundless love toward mankind Thou didst become man, yet without change or alteration..."

As an aside, I notice even in the Arabic and Coptic they do not use simplified expressions or vocabulary, but everything is proper because it is addressing God and communicating theology. 

Also, is there an authorized Agpeya out there with the old English?  If not, it's not a problem, I can always retype it out.  I was just hoping to save some work and support a bookstore or monastery as well. 

minatasgeel

[quote author=joseph.vandenbrink link=topic=9905.msg121307#msg121307 date=1288051361]
As an aside, I notice even in the Arabic and Coptic they do not use simplified expressions or vocabulary, but everything is proper because it is addressing God and communicating theology.

i fail to understand what you are implying. Coptic and arabic are languages....they don't have "old or new" ways. so you don't deal with this problem. there are some word's that are set to be used for God's divinity but never a full set of rules in the language.

Also, is there an authorized Agpeya out there with the old English?  If not, it's not a problem, I can always retype it out.  I was just hoping to save some work and support a bookstore or monastery as well. 

We have a couple of Coptic Orthodox churches who published eglish Agepya....but not a stranded one yet. Some use NKJ, NIV or a Septuagint translation.

joseph.vandenbrink

Forgive me, Mina.  I'm afraid I've upset you and I meant nothing malicious.  I accept your answer, thank you. 

minatasgeel

[quote author=joseph.vandenbrink link=topic=9905.msg121311#msg121311 date=1288052760]
Forgive me, Mina.  I'm afraid I've upset you and I meant nothing malicious.  I accept your answer, thank you. 

oh. what makes you think that?!
i am sorry if i upset you. the topic is one of things that would be different in every opinion. you said your opinion....i said mine. no harm done. 

servant33

Hi,

I don't think it was a deliberate decision to make everything in modern English, and often various churches use different combinations of the kind of English. Like in my church we say "We praise you, we serve you, etc" but I've been to a church that says "We praise thee, we serve thee..." I think the conversion to modern English happened as people from the current generation wondered why the church books were so poorly translated into English and naturally converted them into the modern form.
As for an old English agpeya, if you find an older printing of one, like 1980's to early 90's on the back of a church pew, it will likely be in old English.

Michael Boutros

I think what Joseph is trying to say is that the Old English words such as "thee" and "thine" are a bit more formal and therefore more appropriate when referencing God.

For example, when I speak to my priest at church in Arabic I always start with "Ya otsek, ....," or if I'm speaking to someone formally I will say "Ya ostaz Samuel..." or whatever the proper expression may be. It's been noted that in English we never really address these formalities, as I doubt that many people say "Your Reverence, ...," in referring to priests. Similarly, when speaking to a bishop, we might say "Ya Seyedna," whereas I don't even know what I'd say in English - in the past, I start with "Ya Seyedna" and continue in English.

Is that what you meant Joseph?

aidan

[quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=9905.msg121321#msg121321 date=1288066974]
I think what Joseph is trying to say is that the Old English words such as "thee" and "thine" are a bit more formal and therefore more appropriate when referencing God.

English lost the second person singular (thou, etc) some hundred years ago. It was used when addressing children, servants and familiars (some languages, notably French still have it). More amazingly it was used when addressing the Almighty; God being addressed familiarly!

I notice the Agpeya used in the Coptic church in England (the New King James version) has the Our Father only using the familiar (Thy kingdom etc) version. The rest is in dignified, clear, modern English.

Many people like the language of the old King James version. I can see why, it is beautiful. But I would like to make a plea to the Copts who seem intent on missionary activity as well as keeping their young people 'on board', to keep the modern English version. Don't start with a fossilised form of language that no one speaks and which the churches associated with it (mainly the Church of England) have dropped.

peterfarrington

We use forms like that in the British Orthodox services.

Here is our edition of the Agpeya...

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/glory-to-god---pocket-prayer-book/3470238?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/3

There are some problems with some translations of the Agpeya into English, in that they do not seem to have been checked by a native speaker and so contain strange translations, or lack a sense of poetry. That does not of course mean that a good English translation should use 'liturgical' English. I agree with Aidan entirely that there should be good, poetic translation of the Agpeya into modern English. This does not mean 'sloppy' or 'colloquial' English.

There are, however, many who do prefer the older style of English. Certainly all the prayers which are in my heart are in that form of English.

Here, for instance, is the Prayer of Thanksgiving...

O Master, Lord, God Almighty, the Father of our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, we give Thee thanks for every condition, and for all things and in all things; for Thou hast protected us, succoured us, preserved us, purchased us unto Thyself, had compassion upon us, sustained us, and brought us unto this hour. Wherefore, we ask and entreat Thy goodness, O Lover of mankind; Grant us to complete this holy day, and all the days of our life in all peace and in Thy fear. All envy, all temptations,
all the work of Satan, the counsel of wicked men, the rising up of enemies, hidden or manifest, do Thou cast away from us, and from all Thy people, and from this Church, and from this Holy Place which is Thine.

But such things as are good and beneficial for us, bestow them upon us, for Thou art He Who hast given unto us the power to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the Enemy. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us
from evil, by the grace, compassion and love for mankind, of Thine Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ; Through Whom glory, honour, dominion, and adoration are due unto Thee, with Him, and the Holy Ghost, the Life-Giver, Who is of one essence with Thee, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

This is what is in my heart so I pray it naturally and comfortably. But this could be cast in modern English which was also of a high quality, poetic and memorable.

Father Peter

godislove260

I understand and agree with Joseph's point. It seems only fitting to address God in a way that is more formal than what we use in our every-day language. In fact, as much as some would want the language in the services to be more modern and up to date, I think it can be beneficial to have a 'language' reserved for services etc. that we don't use outside, it gives us maybe a clearer understanding of the big difference between doing godly things and dealing with worldly matters. I believe also this can be the beauty of using old Greek, Latin or Coptic in the services. Provided you understand what you say, and master the dead languages (with all necessary reservations on using this term for Coptic) well enough to be able use them well. However, I think, in the end this is a matter of personal preference and opinion.

mabsoota

Jesus Himself used modern language to communicate with the disciples, and they used modern language to talk to Him and to pray to God.
in my opinion (i'm really sorry if anyone, especially any clergy who i deeply respect disagrees with me), old english is not more respectful, it is just old!!

i don't understand it at all, i get lost translating it to modern english in my head.
it doesn't feel at all respectful, it just feels very impersonal and distant. sometimes it makes me want to laugh, it sounds so funny. i think a lot of english speakers under the age of 70 who don't have a church background feel the same. i didn't grow up with it, and maybe those who did have nice feelings when they hear it, but i don't think it's so useful when reaching out to people who don't know the church.

in the egyptian arabic we use in the coptic church, we don't use any outdated language, it is clear and any arabic speaker coming in the church would understand it whatever their background. of course we don't use swear words or rude words, but then we should not use them in our daily lives either.

so when the arabic got translated into english, it tended to be the english in use at the time. many arabic-speaking immigrants came to english speaking countries in the last 40 years, so they used modern english.

as for having a different language for church and other things, i think our whole lives should be lives of reverence and respect for God, not just sunday mornings. i understand some people think the old languge feels 'nicer', but i want to feel 'nice' all the time, and remember God's love in all the trials and problems of daily life.
so, eg, if someone says 'lift up that shelf', i think to myself 'lift up your hearts! we lift them to the lord.' so the modern emglish language i use at church rings in my head during the week, and little ordinary things i do remind me of God's love and the Holy Communion i took on sunday.

and as aidan said, when we use 'thou' for God, we are being friendly, so it was the appropriate language 100 years ago when it used to be used.

John_S2000

Both ways should be good as long as worshipers have the same spiritual intention and drive. Orthodoxy will always be classic, traditional and conventional in essence but I think that if one says Thou or You (with the "Y" in capital) associated during prayers with deep spiritual veneration her/his worship is acceptable to God.

GBU

ihabfanous

I know this is a very old thread, but I ran into it today and wished to share my opinion.

Please read my article on http://www.copticbook.net/englishLanguage.php.