[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9601.msg118303#msg118303 date=1282086823] Lady is one who conducts herself in a ladylike fashion. This is inclusive of Christian life and attributes that Fr. Peter commented on very nicely.
A "woman" is one who has the body parts that defines the XX chromosome make-up but is lacking in the above attributes.
This is a brief description without having to write an entire encyclopedia.
[quote author=kirollos3 link=topic=9601.msg118329#msg118329 date=1282110750] let your parent choose .. they will get you the right girl .. they always do
This is what I'm looking at. This sort of principle.
Shouldn't the Church decide for you? I know this is a bit far fetched, but if marriage IS a sacrament, and it is serious; if the CHurch chose for you, then its easier... isn't it?
God chose Eve for Adam. Adam didnt have any say in the matter. .did he? So why doesnt the Church chose who gets married to who - especially as it is the Church that is involved in the sacrament of marriage, and given that the Church does not recognise divorce - they should be the one therefore, to find wives.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9601.msg118344#msg118344 date=1282115708] [quote author=kirollos3 link=topic=9601.msg118329#msg118329 date=1282110750] let your parent choose .. they will get you the right girl .. they always do
So why doesnt the Church chose who gets married to who - especially as it is the Church that is involved in the sacrament of marriage, and given that the Church does not recognise divorce - they should be the one therefore, to find wives.
Because God gave us free will to do what we wished, including the choice to marry whomever we wished. If the church forced people to marry others, you can imagine what would happen if one of those marriages failed - the church would be blamed and people would flee from it in excess numbers.
whatever happened to love? do you not need to fall in love with a person to marry them? imagine living the rest of your life with a person that you only realize after your married might not the the perfect one for you, like half the uncles and taunts we know that have horrible relationships with eachother but are just in the marriage because they can't get out of it now......imagine how much a life like that would suck......in my opinion theres is the perfect person out there for everybody and you just have to find them with the guidance of God, trust me you do not want to rush yourself into anything, or get into a relationship just out of it's convenience and because it is available via being set up by your parents or whatever it may be because you WILL regret it later.......
[quote author=DavidI link=topic=9601.msg118345#msg118345 date=1282117554] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9601.msg118344#msg118344 date=1282115708] [quote author=kirollos3 link=topic=9601.msg118329#msg118329 date=1282110750] let your parent choose .. they will get you the right girl .. they always do
So why doesnt the Church chose who gets married to who - especially as it is the Church that is involved in the sacrament of marriage, and given that the Church does not recognise divorce - they should be the one therefore, to find wives.
Because God gave us free will to do what we wished, including the choice to marry whomever we wished. If the church forced people to marry others, you can imagine what would happen if one of those marriages failed - the church would be blamed and people would flee from it in excess numbers.
Of course we have free will. I think the Church, through the priest should recommend marriage between couples.
Its like this:
I am a software developer, and I make software - right? I tell the customer that our software only works on certain hardware specification. If you go and choose another specification OUTSIDE what we recommend, we cannot support you. We do not give refunds either once you've purchased the software. The alternative is that we provide them with the entire solution - Hardware and Software installed. That way, they have no worries. If anything goes wrong, its NOT the client who is at fault. They have not broken any of our policies.
We have free will to decide who we want to marry, yet what good is that if we have no free will to get divorced?? So, its POINTLESS FREE WILL in marriage.
Free will, outside marriage, works fine. You're free to choose, free to try, free to buy, free to change your mind. All this freedom goes in marriage.
So why doesnt the Church just choose for you?? If they recommend marriage as a route to holiness and holy CHristian life, then they should be recommending the entire end to end solution. Shouldnt they??
Whatever happened to Love??? The 60% divorce rate in England STARTED out with FREE WILL and LOVE. Each person that got divorced LOVED his wife. SIXTY PERCENT!!!!!
The British people, as well as the French (55% divorce) DO NOT have arranged marriages.
But, if you look at the Bible, the FIRST MARRIAGE ever was arranged - and it worked out perfectly well.
There is NOT one perfect person you have to find and marry. The Bible doesn't say that. The Fathers don't day that. It is just something the devil uses so that we can say 'I have married the wrong person'. Apart from the instance of violence and abuse (which should never be tolerated) marriage is not supposed to be easy, any more than the monastic life or the dedicated single life is easy. When our Christian life is easy there is usually something wrong somewhere.
Life is for us to learn to persevere, to be committed to God and others, to grow in grace, to become humble.
It is a preparation for eternity. We should not expect it to be perfect or unendingly pleasant.
The idea that we fall madly in love with someone and live happily ever after is a very modern lie. For most of human history the choice of a partner has been much more practical and realistic, and based on commitment not romance. Even today I get emails once a month from an Indian Orthodox mailing list I am on with requests for interest in daughters and sons. Here is an example.
Orthodox parents invite proposal from parents of professionally qualified and God-fearing boys for their daughter -26/156cm, B Tech-computer science- Software Engineer, Born & brought up in Muscat. Photo and profile to email : rajua******[email protected]
This ancient method (not emails of course) does not guarantee a successful marriage, but it does mean that there are more than two people considering if it is wise and likely to succeed. The basis of a successful marriage is not fun, pleasure, perfect compatibility etc. This does not provide the means for our spiritual growth WHICH IS THE ONLY OBJECT OF THIS LIFE.
Most marriages can succeed. It does not require the perfect partner. It requires a perfect humility, self-sacrifice and perseverance. It may not be the most wonderful marriage, but being happy is not the objective. Being formed in the image of Christ is the object of all of our lives, whether married, single or monastics.
You do not need to fall in love with someone to marry them. You do need to make a commitment to love them. These are different. One is as solid to build on as sand. The other is a solid rock.
maybe with some people but from personal experience in my life, i unfortunatly got into a relationship earlier in my life and i did not necessarily love the person but stayed in the relationship just because it was there and convenient, i kind of wanted a relationship and i did not want to hurt anyones feelings so i just stayed with the routine and it eventually spiraled down and it really was a learning lesson for me and i thank God i did not end up with this person because i would have regretted it my whole life, but who knows you post made me really think about it and now i do not know but i mean love would be nice and it is present in some marriages an those people are happy and close to God together psh i don't know haha this really is not the time in my life for this talk and if it's Gods will for whoever it is to get married i guess it will happen i just wanted to bring about the point that you should not just get into a relationship because it is available and convenient and because you want a relationship because with my experience it did not go to well lol but who knows life's a trip God speed haha
[quote author=cop link=topic=9601.msg118350#msg118350 date=1282120915] maybe with some people but from personal experience in my life, i unfortunatly got into a relationship earlier in my life and i did not necessarily love the person but stayed in the relationship just because it was there and convenient, i kind of wanted a relationship and i did not want to hurt anyones feelings so i just stayed with the routine and it eventually spiraled down and it really was a learning lesson for me and i thank God i did not end up with this person because i would have regretted it my whole life, but who knows you post made me really think about it and now i do not know but i mean love would be nice and it is present in some marriages an those people are happy and close to God together psh i don't know haha this really is not the time in my life for this talk and if it's Gods will for whoever it is to get married i guess it will happen i just wanted to bring about the point that you should not just get into a relationship because it is available and convenient and because you want a relationship because with my experience it did not go to well lol but who knows life's a trip God speed haha
I echo Fr. Peter's post - especially the part where he says
You do not need to fall in love with someone to marry them. You do need to make a commitment to love them. These are different. One is as solid to build on as sand. The other is a solid rock.
So, if we do not need to fall in love (which I agree with) - but we need to be committed to loving them (which I agree with) - then what is the point of love before marriage? What good is that?
So, why doesn't the Church matchmake? for the sake of marriage? Shouldnt it say: "Look, zoxsasi, we know you, I've been your FoC for 25 years, and you have now decided that the path of marriage is for you. We would recommend for you these 2 girls - and you can choose... but if you marry someone OUSIDE of our choice, we can bless it, but we cannot guarantee that this will be right for you".
[quote author=cop link=topic=9601.msg118352#msg118352 date=1282121933] what was the point of you judging my post? was it to add to your douchebagness? and there is its called copticmatch.com......
Relax man, who was judging you or your post? I was asking Fr. Peter why the Church doesn't promote arranged marriages where the arrangement is done by the Priests (Given that they don't accept divorce).
Why?
You didnt even say say anything particularly bad for me to even judge you. You need to relax man.. you'll never get married this way.
It is quite simple, the priest would be forced to judge people. Everyone in the church is the priest's child. How can a father be forced to pick and choose relative to his children? Do you get my gist?
It is quite simple, the priest would be forced to judge people. Everyone in the church is the priest's child. How can a father be forced to pick and choose relative to his children? Do you get my gist?
But they do anyway... don't they? Its not "judging" - its more or less match-making.
Look, a priest knows you. For example - he sees you are a fanatical Christian who has a short temper. He knows a girl who is a devout Christian, who is very patient. He suggests this for you.
Have you heard the tapes by Nabil Baky?? I find it extremely worrying. He says some stuff like:
"An authoritative person CANNOT marry a personality type who is domineering"
He gives all the different personality matrices that work/don't work.
Now, Im shocked, because its NOT fair to tell people this information (IN A CHURCH) after they've got married. That's just gonna cause problems for no reason. But IF the Church goes to the extent of getting marriage councellors to actually say this stuff in Church, why don't they go the WHOLE way and suggest couples for everyone???
What's wrong with that?? Its not judging dude. Its common sense.
Look, let's say I'm a priest, and I see that you are a deacon, but you like to have fun and party sometimes. That's fine. I'm not going to suggest for you a girl who I know wanted to be a nun, but decided to get married.
Let's say there's a girl I know who, for a lack of a better word, is BALADY. I'm not going to suggest for her a guy who was raised in a non BALADY environment. BALADY people should only marry balady people. It does not mean being balady makes u a bad Christian.. on the contrary... i know many girls who are balady and they are good Christians...
The CoC has marriage councellors who clearly stress that certain personality types work/don't work. The CoC does not allow for divorce.
Therefore, why doesn't the CoC just allow marriages that it recommends? Biblically speaking, as a I mentioned, Adam had an arranged marriage. God chose for him a wife (custom built) and married him to Eve. OK, they made a few mistakes, but they didnt get divorced.
If marriage is a sacrament, and its important, and its something public, why should anyone chose a partner by themselves? Why doesn't the CoC insist that it should be part of the selection process??
It solves a LOT of headache for everyone.
Ultimately, if the CoC choose, or if they don't choose, your words are very much the key to a successful marriage - but it is assuming that each person in a married couple will strive to be humble, and work at loving the other person.
I am not sure what you mean by 'the Church'? The Church is not clergy. We are not Roman Catholics. We are all part of the Church.
If you mean that a person should ideally seek advice from his spiritual father, and his parents and friends, then that is sensible. But the clergy should not make decisions which belong to two adult Christians. The aim of the clergy is to see their spiritual children grow up into adults, not to keep them as infants.
The CoC does allow for divorce in some circumstances. This is the Orthodox position, and we know that divorce is somewhat easier in some of the other Orthodox communities. But at present, and in the same case as with alcohol consumption, it wishes to preserve the faithful from unhealthy Western influences and lifestyles. We know that not so long ago even bishops drank alcohol in Egypt, and we could also find evidence of divorce. But we are living now, an dthe bishops and priests must seek to preserve the spiritual health of the community now, and in the situation we find ourselves, not as it might be somewhere else or at some other time.
It would be entirely reasonable for a priest to refuse to marry a couple unless they went through a process of marriage counselling which included asking if the couple were rushing into something they had not considered the gravity of. This is no different to a priest having to consider whether a person is ready for baptism, or should receive communion. But it is not the priest's role or responsibility to prevent a couple being married if they seem prepared, simply because he thinks they should marry other people.
THERE IS NOT ONE PERFECT PARTNER
There is only ever two sinful and broken partners who must find healing and salvation together.
If a person is not striving to be humble then they are not striving to be a Christian. If they are striving to be humble then almost all circumstances can be borne with patience. The partner must learn to say in the most difficult and lonely times, 'Thank's be to God'
I was told by my priest, 'never ask a priest about a potential spouse'. The reason is that they cannot tell you everything (which may be vital), and they cannot bad mouth one of their children. That is the bottom line.
Plus, they enough to deal with in terms of their responsibilities.
Ultimately, as a priest you do not want people coming back and pointing the finger of accusation, relative to a failed marriage, that you [the priest] was the cause.
Fr. Peter's words are very exact and to the point. Probably the best advice I've heard on the matter.
BTW, I have no idea who Nabil Baky is. Is he a guru on marriage?
Yeah, Dr Nabs is a guru in Orthodox marriage and orthodox sexual positions in marriage. He gives a lot of talks in the Church concerning these issues. (don't worry, he doesnt do demos, we haven't reached that point yet).
Comments
There are plenty of women, not too many ladies (anymore).
Ilovesaintmark, I am interested in what you describe a lady or what qualities you think makes up a lady that differs her from any regular women.
http://old.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=122&Itemid=26
http://old.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&Itemid=26
A "woman" is one who has the body parts that defines the XX chromosome make-up but is lacking in the above attributes.
This is a brief description without having to write an entire encyclopedia.
Lady is one who conducts herself in a ladylike fashion. This is inclusive of Christian life and attributes that Fr. Peter commented on very nicely.
A "woman" is one who has the body parts that defines the XX chromosome make-up but is lacking in the above attributes.
This is a brief description without having to write an entire encyclopedia.
hmm.. wise! :)
let your parent choose .. they will get you the right girl .. they always do
This is what I'm looking at. This sort of principle.
Shouldn't the Church decide for you? I know this is a bit far fetched, but if marriage IS a sacrament, and it is serious; if the CHurch chose for you, then its easier... isn't it?
God chose Eve for Adam. Adam didnt have any say in the matter. .did he?
So why doesnt the Church chose who gets married to who - especially as it is the Church that is involved in the sacrament of marriage, and given that the Church does not recognise divorce - they should be the one therefore, to find wives.
[quote author=kirollos3 link=topic=9601.msg118329#msg118329 date=1282110750]
let your parent choose .. they will get you the right girl .. they always do
So why doesnt the Church chose who gets married to who - especially as it is the Church that is involved in the sacrament of marriage, and given that the Church does not recognise divorce - they should be the one therefore, to find wives.
Because God gave us free will to do what we wished, including the choice to marry whomever we wished. If the church forced people to marry others, you can imagine what would happen if one of those marriages failed - the church would be blamed and people would flee from it in excess numbers.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9601.msg118344#msg118344 date=1282115708]
[quote author=kirollos3 link=topic=9601.msg118329#msg118329 date=1282110750]
let your parent choose .. they will get you the right girl .. they always do
So why doesnt the Church chose who gets married to who - especially as it is the Church that is involved in the sacrament of marriage, and given that the Church does not recognise divorce - they should be the one therefore, to find wives.
Because God gave us free will to do what we wished, including the choice to marry whomever we wished. If the church forced people to marry others, you can imagine what would happen if one of those marriages failed - the church would be blamed and people would flee from it in excess numbers.
Of course we have free will. I think the Church, through the priest should recommend marriage between couples.
Its like this:
I am a software developer, and I make software - right?
I tell the customer that our software only works on certain hardware specification.
If you go and choose another specification OUTSIDE what we recommend, we cannot support you.
We do not give refunds either once you've purchased the software.
The alternative is that we provide them with the entire solution - Hardware and Software installed.
That way, they have no worries. If anything goes wrong, its NOT the client who is at fault. They have not broken any of our policies.
We have free will to decide who we want to marry, yet what good is that if we have no free will to get divorced?? So, its POINTLESS FREE WILL in marriage.
Free will, outside marriage, works fine. You're free to choose, free to try, free to buy, free to change your mind.
All this freedom goes in marriage.
So why doesnt the Church just choose for you?? If they recommend marriage as a route to holiness and holy CHristian life, then they should be recommending the entire end to end solution. Shouldnt they??
Whatever happened to Love??? The 60% divorce rate in England STARTED out with FREE WILL and LOVE.
Each person that got divorced LOVED his wife. SIXTY PERCENT!!!!!
The British people, as well as the French (55% divorce) DO NOT have arranged marriages.
But, if you look at the Bible, the FIRST MARRIAGE ever was arranged - and it worked out perfectly well.
Life is for us to learn to persevere, to be committed to God and others, to grow in grace, to become humble.
It is a preparation for eternity. We should not expect it to be perfect or unendingly pleasant.
The idea that we fall madly in love with someone and live happily ever after is a very modern lie. For most of human history the choice of a partner has been much more practical and realistic, and based on commitment not romance. Even today I get emails once a month from an Indian Orthodox mailing list I am on with requests for interest in daughters and sons. Here is an example.
Orthodox parents invite proposal from parents of professionally qualified
and God-fearing boys for their daughter -26/156cm, B Tech-computer science-
Software Engineer, Born & brought up in Muscat. Photo and profile to
email : rajua******[email protected]
This ancient method (not emails of course) does not guarantee a successful marriage, but it does mean that there are more than two people considering if it is wise and likely to succeed. The basis of a successful marriage is not fun, pleasure, perfect compatibility etc. This does not provide the means for our spiritual growth WHICH IS THE ONLY OBJECT OF THIS LIFE.
Most marriages can succeed. It does not require the perfect partner. It requires a perfect humility, self-sacrifice and perseverance. It may not be the most wonderful marriage, but being happy is not the objective. Being formed in the image of Christ is the object of all of our lives, whether married, single or monastics.
You do not need to fall in love with someone to marry them. You do need to make a commitment to love them. These are different. One is as solid to build on as sand. The other is a solid rock.
Father Peter
maybe with some people but from personal experience in my life, i unfortunatly got into a relationship earlier in my life and i did not necessarily love the person but stayed in the relationship just because it was there and convenient, i kind of wanted a relationship and i did not want to hurt anyones feelings so i just stayed with the routine and it eventually spiraled down and it really was a learning lesson for me and i thank God i did not end up with this person because i would have regretted it my whole life, but who knows you post made me really think about it and now i do not know but i mean love would be nice and it is present in some marriages an those people are happy and close to God together psh i don't know haha this really is not the time in my life for this talk and if it's Gods will for whoever it is to get married i guess it will happen i just wanted to bring about the point that you should not just get into a relationship because it is available and convenient and because you want a relationship because with my experience it did not go to well lol but who knows life's a trip God speed haha
I echo Fr. Peter's post - especially the part where he says So, if we do not need to fall in love (which I agree with) - but we need to be committed to loving them (which I agree with) - then what is the point of love before marriage? What good is that?
So, why doesn't the Church matchmake? for the sake of marriage? Shouldnt it say: "Look, zoxsasi, we know you, I've been your FoC for 25 years, and you have now decided that the path of marriage is for you. We would recommend for you these 2 girls - and you can choose... but if you marry someone OUSIDE of our choice, we can bless it, but we cannot guarantee that this will be right for you".
what was the point of you judging my post? was it to add to your douchebagness? and there is its called copticmatch.com......
Relax man, who was judging you or your post? I was asking Fr. Peter why the Church doesn't promote arranged marriages where the arrangement is done by the Priests (Given that they don't accept divorce).
Why?
You didnt even say say anything particularly bad for me to even judge you. You need to relax man.. you'll never get married this way.
It is quite simple, the priest would be forced to judge people. Everyone in the church is the priest's child. How can a father be forced to pick and choose relative to his children? Do you get my gist?
Zoxsasi,
It is quite simple, the priest would be forced to judge people. Everyone in the church is the priest's child. How can a father be forced to pick and choose relative to his children? Do you get my gist?
But they do anyway... don't they? Its not "judging" - its more or less match-making.
Look, a priest knows you. For example - he sees you are a fanatical Christian who has a short temper.
He knows a girl who is a devout Christian, who is very patient. He suggests this for you.
Have you heard the tapes by Nabil Baky?? I find it extremely worrying. He says some stuff like:
"An authoritative person CANNOT marry a personality type who is domineering"
He gives all the different personality matrices that work/don't work.
Now, Im shocked, because its NOT fair to tell people this information (IN A CHURCH) after they've got married. That's just gonna cause problems for no reason. But IF the Church goes to the extent of getting marriage councellors to actually say this stuff in Church, why don't they go the WHOLE way and suggest couples for everyone???
What's wrong with that?? Its not judging dude. Its common sense.
Look, let's say I'm a priest, and I see that you are a deacon, but you like to have fun and party sometimes. That's fine. I'm not going to suggest for you a girl who I know wanted to be a nun, but decided to get married.
Let's say there's a girl I know who, for a lack of a better word, is BALADY. I'm not going to suggest for her a guy who was raised in a non BALADY environment. BALADY people should only marry balady people. It does not mean being balady makes u a bad Christian.. on the contrary... i know many girls who are balady and they are good Christians...
Do u get my drift jack?
and there is a website called copticmatch.com......
hahahahaha i knew someone was going to bring that up ...
So, moving back to the original point:
The CoC has marriage councellors who clearly stress that certain personality types work/don't work.
The CoC does not allow for divorce.
Therefore, why doesn't the CoC just allow marriages that it recommends? Biblically speaking, as a I mentioned, Adam had an arranged marriage. God chose for him a wife (custom built) and married him to Eve. OK, they made a few mistakes, but they didnt get divorced.
If marriage is a sacrament, and its important, and its something public, why should anyone chose a partner by themselves? Why doesn't the CoC insist that it should be part of the selection process??
It solves a LOT of headache for everyone.
Ultimately, if the CoC choose, or if they don't choose, your words are very much the key to a successful marriage - but it is assuming that each person in a married couple will strive to be humble, and work at loving the other person.
If you mean that a person should ideally seek advice from his spiritual father, and his parents and friends, then that is sensible. But the clergy should not make decisions which belong to two adult Christians. The aim of the clergy is to see their spiritual children grow up into adults, not to keep them as infants.
The CoC does allow for divorce in some circumstances. This is the Orthodox position, and we know that divorce is somewhat easier in some of the other Orthodox communities. But at present, and in the same case as with alcohol consumption, it wishes to preserve the faithful from unhealthy Western influences and lifestyles. We know that not so long ago even bishops drank alcohol in Egypt, and we could also find evidence of divorce. But we are living now, an dthe bishops and priests must seek to preserve the spiritual health of the community now, and in the situation we find ourselves, not as it might be somewhere else or at some other time.
It would be entirely reasonable for a priest to refuse to marry a couple unless they went through a process of marriage counselling which included asking if the couple were rushing into something they had not considered the gravity of. This is no different to a priest having to consider whether a person is ready for baptism, or should receive communion. But it is not the priest's role or responsibility to prevent a couple being married if they seem prepared, simply because he thinks they should marry other people.
THERE IS NOT ONE PERFECT PARTNER
There is only ever two sinful and broken partners who must find healing and salvation together.
If a person is not striving to be humble then they are not striving to be a Christian. If they are striving to be humble then almost all circumstances can be borne with patience. The partner must learn to say in the most difficult and lonely times, 'Thank's be to God'
Father Peter
I was told by my priest, 'never ask a priest about a potential spouse'. The reason is that they cannot tell you everything (which may be vital), and they cannot bad mouth one of their children. That is the bottom line.
Plus, they enough to deal with in terms of their responsibilities.
Ultimately, as a priest you do not want people coming back and pointing the finger of accusation, relative to a failed marriage, that you [the priest] was the cause.
Fr. Peter's words are very exact and to the point. Probably the best advice I've heard on the matter.
BTW, I have no idea who Nabil Baky is. Is he a guru on marriage?
Zoxsasi,
Fr. Peter's words are very exact and to the point. Probably the best advice I've heard on the matter.
BTW, I have no idea who Nabil Baky is. Is he a guru on marriage?
Yeah, Dr Nabs is a guru in Orthodox marriage and orthodox sexual positions in marriage. He gives a lot of talks in the Church concerning these issues. (don't worry, he doesnt do demos, we haven't reached that point yet).