[quote author=TITL link=topic=10101.msg123685#msg123685 date=1291674904] Mina, stop copying my posts! This is your second warning. You got one more and you're outtt ;)
so why do we say "Pope, Patriarch and Archbishop" in the litany of the fathers??? I am pretty sure that every single thing in our church, every single word in our liturgy is there for a specific reason...we have a three hour liturgy and that is apparently cut down from the old days (not sure how ??? ???)
if Pope is there then wouldnt that be something different than Patriarch and Archbishop otherwise our church wouldn't have had it in?
also in coptic, the word for pope is pi arhsierevs and the word for father is abba or papa and the word for archbishop is arshi episkopos and patriarch is patraiarshees. is they are different words, then again they have different meanings-- we dont use them interchangeably.
alsoooo.... why are we then the only orthodox church with a pope when everyone else has only patriarchs???
father peter...we will have a fun time getting to know each other ;). i have many many questions
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10101.msg123695#msg123695 date=1291676239] Please and thank you ;D
Now that you've asked so politely :P ... (I'm kidding ;D)
All Coptic Orthodox bishops have staffs (symbolism with shepherds over the flock of Christ), and I think all Orthodox bishops have them too. It is just the particular design that differs, so what looks like a "Pope cane" to you ( ;D) is just the standard bishop one in the Armenian Orthodox Church.
The purple robes are probably common in the Armenian church, just as red is worn with the black in the Syrian Orthodox Church.
You are saying 'we call him "Pope" and so this must mean something other than Archbishop and Patriarch'. Yes it does. But the answer must be found in a study of Church History, not in the popular affection and respect which we hold His Holiness in.
For many centuries the bishop of Alexandria was called Archbishop. He was not called a Patriarch. St Cyril was the Archbishop of Alexandria. Archbishop means 'first-bishop'. And as Archbishop of Alexandria he had a particular responsibility for presiding over the Synod of the Egyptian Church.
The term 'Patriarch' was first used to describe any respected and elderly bishop, not only those who were the Archbishops of their areas. In time the three Archbishops of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria stood out especially from their brother bishops because they were the bishops of the most important cities in the Empire. The term Patriarch came to be used for these bishops because they were responsible not only for their own Synods, but had in their ecclesiastical organisation (following that of the Empire) other senior bishops who had their own Synods and were also Archbishops. These Archbishops are also called Metropolitans.
So the term Patriarch usually means the senior bishop of a group of Metropolitan Synods. In the case of the Alexandrian Church, the bishop of Alexandria always had a very great influence over all other bishops and so the Metropolitan structure was rather stunted. But we can see that the Archbishop of Alexandria was president of the Egyptian Synod, and also that of Ethiopia, and also in the distant past of other local Synods in places where the Church is now extinct.
So His Holiness is both Archbishop in his own Synod, and Patriarch of a wider community which has its own structure. We could imagine that if God wills to restore the Church in some of these places, then a local Church in Nubia could be formed with its own Archbishop and Synod, but which was also dependent on the Archbishop of Alexandria as senior president and Patriarch.
The term 'Pope', or 'Papa', was one which was bestowed on bishops, other clergy, and spiritual fathers, generally in the past. But it came to be associated with the Bishop of Alexandria as meaning 'Father of the Fathers'. The word papa is Greek, and is used in Greek in an ancient Egyptian text speaking of Pope Heracles who died in 248 AD. This was long before the particular use of the term Patriarch, and was at the same time as many other fathers were also all called 'papa'. Cyprian of Carthage was also called 'papa', and there are a great many other examples of the use of the term in this spiritual sense of Father.
The development of the Western Papal claims about the Roman Pope all developed after this period. Therefore the use of the word 'papa' which only means 'Father', cannot be linked to claims of universal jurisdiction in the East, or indeed in any place. I know of no writer, ancient or modern, who claims for the Coptic Pope any sort of universal jursisdiction, or any jurisdiction beyond the proper structures of the Church, as history has laid them out.
He is Pope because he is 'Father'.
He is Archbishop, because he is the president of the Egyptian Synod.
He is Patriarch, because there are other local Synods which also relate to him as their senior president.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10101.msg123697#msg123697 date=1291677248] You are starting from the wrong place.
You are saying 'we call him "Pope" and so this must mean something other than Archbishop and Patriarch'. Yes it does. But the answer must be found in a study of Church History, not in the popular affection and respect which we hold His Holiness in.
For many centuries the bishop of Alexandria was called Archbishop. He was not called a Patriarch. St Cyril was the Archbishop of Alexandria. Archbishop means 'first-bishop'. And as Archbishop of Alexandria he had a particular responsibility for presiding over the Synod of the Egyptian Church.
The term 'Patriarch' was first used to describe any respected and elderly bishop, not only those who were the Archbishops of their areas. In time the three Archbishops of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria stood out especially from their brother bishops because they were the bishops of the most important cities in the Empire. The term Patriarch came to be used for these bishops because they were responsible not only for their own Synods, but had in their ecclesiastical organisation (following that of the Empire) other senior bishops who had their own Synods and were also Archbishops. These Archbishops are also called Metropolitans.
So the term Patriarch usually means the senior bishop of a group of Metropolitan Synods. In the case of the Alexandrian Church, the bishop of Alexandria always had a very great influence over all other bishops and so the Metropolitan structure was rather stunted. But we can see that the Archbishop of Alexandria was president of the Egyptian Synod, and also that of Ethiopia, and also in the distant past of other local Synods in places where the Church is now extinct.
So His Holiness is both Archbishop in his own Synod, and Patriarch of a wider community which has its own structure. We could imagine that if God wills to restore the Church in some of these places, then a local Church in Nubia could be formed with its own Archbishop and Synod, but which was also dependent on the Archbishop of Alexandria as senior president and Patriarch.
The term 'Pope', or 'Papa', was one which was bestowed on bishops, other clergy, and spiritual fathers, generally in the past. But it came to be associated with the Bishop of Alexandria as meaning 'Father of the Fathers'. The word papa is Greek, and is used in Greek in an ancient Egyptian text speaking of Pope Heracles who died in 248 AD. This was long before the particular use of the term Patriarch, and was at the same time as many other fathers were also all called 'papa'. Cyprian of Carthage was also called 'papa', and there are a great many other examples of the use of the term in this spiritual sense of Father.
The development of the Western Papal claims about the Roman Pope all developed after this period. Therefore the use of the word 'papa' which only means 'Father', cannot be linked to claims of universal jurisdiction in the East, or indeed in any place. I know of no writer, ancient or modern, who claims for the Coptic Pope any sort of universal jursisdiction, or any jurisdiction beyond the proper structures of the Church, as history has laid them out.
He is Pope because he is 'Father'.
He is Archbishop, because he is the president of the Egyptian Synod.
He is Patriarch, because there are other local Synods which also relate to him as their senior president.
The person you identify with the purple on his sleeves that you ask in the picture is Catholicos Aram I of the House of Cilicia. He is the one facilitated the negotiations and settlements between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church towards a full reunion with the proper protocol of prelates in place.
In the Armenian Church, they use the title "Catholicos" as the head of their church.
The Armenian Church, for a whole slew of reasons is divided into two Churches with two Catholicoi (plural of Catholicos), although the Head of the jurisdiction of Holy Etchmiadzin is given the title "Supreme Catholicos of All Armenians" and is known as the Mother See. There are Prelates under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Catholicos with the title Patriarch as they supervise over Constantinople and Jerusalem for the Armenian Presence (solely). They are not related to the Byzantine Patriarchs who are established in those cities.
After reading your post for the 6th time, I finally understand, except with one question: is etchmiadzin (that's really fun to say) another word for synod?
Etchmiadzin is a city and a place. It means "the Only-Begotten descended [here]".
According to Armenian Tradition, St. Gregory the Illuminator (in Armenian--Loosavoritch; also the same St. Gregory the Armenian mentioned in the Coptic Diptychs) was granted a vision in which Christ descended from the Heavens and struck the ground with a hammer and told him to build the Great Cathedral at that place.
St. Gregory in the 3rd century was responsible for the second conversion of Armenia to Christianity. The first conversion was by the Apostles Thaddeus and Bartholomew.
The four original Sees that were preached by the apostles are Alexandria, Rome, Antioch and Jerusalem (of course Jesus was there but they continued after him etc.). I know they preached elsewhere but these four were very important cities. Later on, Constantinople was added because it was considered the 'New Rome' after it was established as the capital of the eastern roman empire (later on, the byzantine empire).
The apostles that preached the four main sees were then considered as the first bishop of each. He then ordains someone in his own place and the trend continues. Then as the ministry grew in each province, the bishop would ordain other bishops to help him in the nearby provinces. Although they are both bishops, the original one would be given a slightly higher level of dignity out of respect, and as the successor of the apostles. In Alexandria's case, the bishop of alexandria would be given a higher level of dignity than the bishop of Pentapolis for example (currently H.E. Metropolitan Bakhomius).
In the third century, there came a Bishop of Alexandria named Heraclas. Historically, he is the first person to be called with the title of Pope. It was out of respect from the other Bishops of Egypt. Even the Bishop of Rome called him Pope (actually Papa, but you understand). (Now don't judge me, but i did get the following excerpt from Wikipedia. I know, wikipedia isn't reliable bla bla bla, but it was the only place I could find it).
"The first known record of this designation being assigned to Heraclas is in a letter written by the bishop of Rome, Dionysius, to Philemon: τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον.[1] [I received this rule and ordinance from our blessed pope, Heraclas.]"
This was the first time anyone ever used the title of Pope. It was later adopted by John I, the Bishop of Rome, in the sixth century, and the Roman Catholic Church recognises this fact.
At the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, the bishops of the main thrones (mentioned above) were 'elevated' to the rank of Patriarch, and the borders of their jurisdiction were defined.
So technically, just because the Patriarch of Antioch isn't called a Pope doesn't mean he is of a lesser rank than H.H. Pope Shenouda. They are all of equal rank. - H.H. Pope Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of all Africa (you shouldn't put St. Mark's name here). - H.H. Pope Benedict XVI, Pope of Rome and Patriarch of all Italy - H.H. Mar Ignatius Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch, Syria and all the Near East (all those rich arab countries with the oil) - H.H. Bartholomew I, Patriarch of Constantinople - (I still don't know anything about Jerusalem. Last I heard, there was none left).
Together it is called the Pentarchy, (Pent=five, archy=leader, or something like that).
It should be noted that the Roman Catholic Church does not accept this theory (the Pentarchy) because they think they are superior to everyone else (stupid politics).
At either the Eritrean or Ethiopian Ordination of the new Patriarch (I forget which), Pope Shenouda attended and ordained the patriarch. Why can't they use 3 of their own bishops to do so?
Comments
Mina, stop copying my posts! This is your second warning. You got one more and you're outtt ;)
Is the Ethiopian Pope the one in the white?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1269/899595052_1af61bcb45.jpg
Yeah, thats Abuna Pawlos.
so why do we say "Pope, Patriarch and Archbishop" in the litany of the fathers??? I am pretty sure that every single thing in our church, every single word in our liturgy is there for a specific reason...we have a three hour liturgy and that is apparently cut down from the old days (not sure how ??? ???)
if Pope is there then wouldnt that be something different than Patriarch and Archbishop otherwise our church wouldn't have had it in?
also in coptic, the word for pope is pi arhsierevs and the word for father is abba or papa and the word for archbishop is arshi episkopos and patriarch is patraiarshees. is they are different words, then again they have different meanings-- we dont use them interchangeably.
alsoooo.... why are we then the only orthodox church with a pope when everyone else has only patriarchs???
father peter...we will have a fun time getting to know each other ;). i have many many questions
How is the one in purple a bishop? He's got a Pope cane.
How is the one in purple a bishop? He's got a Pope cane.
It's called a "staff" not a "cane." Reminded me of Christmas weirdly ;D
Please and thank you ;D
Now that you've asked so politely :P ... (I'm kidding ;D)
All Coptic Orthodox bishops have staffs (symbolism with shepherds over the flock of Christ), and I think all Orthodox bishops have them too. It is just the particular design that differs, so what looks like a "Pope cane" to you ( ;D) is just the standard bishop one in the Armenian Orthodox Church.
The purple robes are probably common in the Armenian church, just as red is worn with the black in the Syrian Orthodox Church.
Just different traditions :)
You are saying 'we call him "Pope" and so this must mean something other than Archbishop and Patriarch'. Yes it does. But the answer must be found in a study of Church History, not in the popular affection and respect which we hold His Holiness in.
For many centuries the bishop of Alexandria was called Archbishop. He was not called a Patriarch. St Cyril was the Archbishop of Alexandria. Archbishop means 'first-bishop'. And as Archbishop of Alexandria he had a particular responsibility for presiding over the Synod of the Egyptian Church.
The term 'Patriarch' was first used to describe any respected and elderly bishop, not only those who were the Archbishops of their areas. In time the three Archbishops of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria stood out especially from their brother bishops because they were the bishops of the most important cities in the Empire. The term Patriarch came to be used for these bishops because they were responsible not only for their own Synods, but had in their ecclesiastical organisation (following that of the Empire) other senior bishops who had their own Synods and were also Archbishops. These Archbishops are also called Metropolitans.
So the term Patriarch usually means the senior bishop of a group of Metropolitan Synods. In the case of the Alexandrian Church, the bishop of Alexandria always had a very great influence over all other bishops and so the Metropolitan structure was rather stunted. But we can see that the Archbishop of Alexandria was president of the Egyptian Synod, and also that of Ethiopia, and also in the distant past of other local Synods in places where the Church is now extinct.
So His Holiness is both Archbishop in his own Synod, and Patriarch of a wider community which has its own structure. We could imagine that if God wills to restore the Church in some of these places, then a local Church in Nubia could be formed with its own Archbishop and Synod, but which was also dependent on the Archbishop of Alexandria as senior president and Patriarch.
The term 'Pope', or 'Papa', was one which was bestowed on bishops, other clergy, and spiritual fathers, generally in the past. But it came to be associated with the Bishop of Alexandria as meaning 'Father of the Fathers'. The word papa is Greek, and is used in Greek in an ancient Egyptian text speaking of Pope Heracles who died in 248 AD. This was long before the particular use of the term Patriarch, and was at the same time as many other fathers were also all called 'papa'. Cyprian of Carthage was also called 'papa', and there are a great many other examples of the use of the term in this spiritual sense of Father.
The development of the Western Papal claims about the Roman Pope all developed after this period. Therefore the use of the word 'papa' which only means 'Father', cannot be linked to claims of universal jurisdiction in the East, or indeed in any place. I know of no writer, ancient or modern, who claims for the Coptic Pope any sort of universal jursisdiction, or any jurisdiction beyond the proper structures of the Church, as history has laid them out.
He is Pope because he is 'Father'.
He is Archbishop, because he is the president of the Egyptian Synod.
He is Patriarch, because there are other local Synods which also relate to him as their senior president.
Best wishes
Father Peter
but weren't the Archbishops of Constantinople and Jerusalem also called Patriarchs.
Please pray for me
You are starting from the wrong place.
You are saying 'we call him "Pope" and so this must mean something other than Archbishop and Patriarch'. Yes it does. But the answer must be found in a study of Church History, not in the popular affection and respect which we hold His Holiness in.
For many centuries the bishop of Alexandria was called Archbishop. He was not called a Patriarch. St Cyril was the Archbishop of Alexandria. Archbishop means 'first-bishop'. And as Archbishop of Alexandria he had a particular responsibility for presiding over the Synod of the Egyptian Church.
The term 'Patriarch' was first used to describe any respected and elderly bishop, not only those who were the Archbishops of their areas. In time the three Archbishops of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria stood out especially from their brother bishops because they were the bishops of the most important cities in the Empire. The term Patriarch came to be used for these bishops because they were responsible not only for their own Synods, but had in their ecclesiastical organisation (following that of the Empire) other senior bishops who had their own Synods and were also Archbishops. These Archbishops are also called Metropolitans.
So the term Patriarch usually means the senior bishop of a group of Metropolitan Synods. In the case of the Alexandrian Church, the bishop of Alexandria always had a very great influence over all other bishops and so the Metropolitan structure was rather stunted. But we can see that the Archbishop of Alexandria was president of the Egyptian Synod, and also that of Ethiopia, and also in the distant past of other local Synods in places where the Church is now extinct.
So His Holiness is both Archbishop in his own Synod, and Patriarch of a wider community which has its own structure. We could imagine that if God wills to restore the Church in some of these places, then a local Church in Nubia could be formed with its own Archbishop and Synod, but which was also dependent on the Archbishop of Alexandria as senior president and Patriarch.
The term 'Pope', or 'Papa', was one which was bestowed on bishops, other clergy, and spiritual fathers, generally in the past. But it came to be associated with the Bishop of Alexandria as meaning 'Father of the Fathers'. The word papa is Greek, and is used in Greek in an ancient Egyptian text speaking of Pope Heracles who died in 248 AD. This was long before the particular use of the term Patriarch, and was at the same time as many other fathers were also all called 'papa'. Cyprian of Carthage was also called 'papa', and there are a great many other examples of the use of the term in this spiritual sense of Father.
The development of the Western Papal claims about the Roman Pope all developed after this period. Therefore the use of the word 'papa' which only means 'Father', cannot be linked to claims of universal jurisdiction in the East, or indeed in any place. I know of no writer, ancient or modern, who claims for the Coptic Pope any sort of universal jursisdiction, or any jurisdiction beyond the proper structures of the Church, as history has laid them out.
He is Pope because he is 'Father'.
He is Archbishop, because he is the president of the Egyptian Synod.
He is Patriarch, because there are other local Synods which also relate to him as their senior president.
Best wishes
Father Peter
fine you win... ;D
The person you identify with the purple on his sleeves that you ask in the picture is Catholicos Aram I of the House of Cilicia. He is the one facilitated the negotiations and settlements between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church towards a full reunion with the proper protocol of prelates in place.
In the Armenian Church, they use the title "Catholicos" as the head of their church.
The Armenian Church, for a whole slew of reasons is divided into two Churches with two Catholicoi (plural of Catholicos), although the Head of the jurisdiction of Holy Etchmiadzin is given the title "Supreme Catholicos of All Armenians" and is known as the Mother See. There are Prelates under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Catholicos with the title Patriarch as they supervise over Constantinople and Jerusalem for the Armenian Presence (solely). They are not related to the Byzantine Patriarchs who are established in those cities.
Thanks for your response :) preciate it!
Etchmiadzin is a city and a place. It means "the Only-Begotten descended [here]".
According to Armenian Tradition, St. Gregory the Illuminator (in Armenian--Loosavoritch; also the same St. Gregory the Armenian mentioned in the Coptic Diptychs) was granted a vision in which Christ descended from the Heavens and struck the ground with a hammer and told him to build the Great Cathedral at that place.
St. Gregory in the 3rd century was responsible for the second conversion of Armenia to Christianity. The first conversion was by the Apostles Thaddeus and Bartholomew.
The four original Sees that were preached by the apostles are Alexandria, Rome, Antioch and Jerusalem (of course Jesus was there but they continued after him etc.). I know they preached elsewhere but these four were very important cities.
Later on, Constantinople was added because it was considered the 'New Rome' after it was established as the capital of the eastern roman empire (later on, the byzantine empire).
The apostles that preached the four main sees were then considered as the first bishop of each. He then ordains someone in his own place and the trend continues. Then as the ministry grew in each province, the bishop would ordain other bishops to help him in the nearby provinces. Although they are both bishops, the original one would be given a slightly higher level of dignity out of respect, and as the successor of the apostles. In Alexandria's case, the bishop of alexandria would be given a higher level of dignity than the bishop of Pentapolis for example (currently H.E. Metropolitan Bakhomius).
In the third century, there came a Bishop of Alexandria named Heraclas. Historically, he is the first person to be called with the title of Pope. It was out of respect from the other Bishops of Egypt. Even the Bishop of Rome called him Pope (actually Papa, but you understand).
(Now don't judge me, but i did get the following excerpt from Wikipedia. I know, wikipedia isn't reliable bla bla bla, but it was the only place I could find it).
"The first known record of this designation being assigned to Heraclas is in a letter written by the bishop of Rome, Dionysius, to Philemon:
τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον.[1] [I received this rule and ordinance from our blessed pope, Heraclas.]"
This was the first time anyone ever used the title of Pope. It was later adopted by John I, the Bishop of Rome, in the sixth century, and the Roman Catholic Church recognises this fact.
At the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, the bishops of the main thrones (mentioned above) were 'elevated' to the rank of Patriarch, and the borders of their jurisdiction were defined.
So technically, just because the Patriarch of Antioch isn't called a Pope doesn't mean he is of a lesser rank than H.H. Pope Shenouda. They are all of equal rank.
- H.H. Pope Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of all Africa (you shouldn't put St. Mark's name here).
- H.H. Pope Benedict XVI, Pope of Rome and Patriarch of all Italy
- H.H. Mar Ignatius Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch, Syria and all the Near East (all those rich arab countries with the oil)
- H.H. Bartholomew I, Patriarch of Constantinople
- (I still don't know anything about Jerusalem. Last I heard, there was none left).
Together it is called the Pentarchy, (Pent=five, archy=leader, or something like that).
It should be noted that the Roman Catholic Church does not accept this theory (the Pentarchy) because they think they are superior to everyone else (stupid politics).
THIS IS ALL I KNOW.
God Bless
The Jerusalem jurisdiction is supposedly alive still in the form of the different claims by the Byzantines, Latin, and Orientals.