in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not?? how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan?? well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
We are fixing it. When they print arabic bibles now, they never use the word allah. they replace it with rabena or elahna, or even elohim
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not?? how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan?? well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
We are fixing it. When they print arabic bibles now, they never use the word allah. they replace it with rabena or elahna, or even elohim
Do they really? Wow. I think that is a mistake.
Why? We only started using the word allah so the muslims would stop slaughtering us...same reason we adopted the arabic language in the first place.
Allah is just the name for muslim god. muhamed took all the idols the arabs worshiped and put them together and called it that and it just got transfered to mean an unseen god. I think its almost blasphemous to use it.
I have not read this whole thread, yet, but I believe the gentleman needs to change the title: "I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants."
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10538.msg128210#msg128210 date=1296002427] I have not read this whole thread, yet, but I believe the gentleman needs to change the title: "I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants."
Hahah ILSM I will change it just for you :D
also, do any of your churches use that red songs book?!
Epiphania: This probably isn't the thread for it, but the short answer is that you are right about Arabic and its history in Egypt, but that doesn't mean that changing the name used in Arabic Bibles wouldn't have wider repercussions that could be very negative. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews used "Allah" for hundreds of years before Islam ever existed (pagans also used it). Seceding it to Muslims is to confirm the warped theology they have wrapped up in their particular use of that word (it's a proper name, it's proof that God speaks Arabic, etc.), which I think is very bad and could place Christians in danger, even outside of Arabic-speaking countries. A little while ago Christians in Malaysia were forbidden from using "Allah" in their publications because it offended Muslims, and some churches were threatened and people were hurt over this stupid issue because "Allah" is a 'Muslim' word (nevermind that it is a loanword for all Malaysians, regardless of their religion...were the Christians supposed to import a word of their own rather than offend the Muslims? That's stupid). I think giving up the word "Allah" in Arabic Bibles feeds into the Arab-Islamic supremacist narrative of history and current events and weakens the position of the native Christians of the Middle East.
The alternative situation wherein Copts stop using "Allah" along with the entirety of the Arabic language that has been foisted upon them by Muslims would be great and 100% supported by me, but is extremely unlikely to ever happen given the status of their native language.
Alright, I guess that wasn't such a short answer. Haha. Sorry. I can write for days about this stuff, because linguistics is my job and my passion. :-[
[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128212#msg128212 date=1296002680] [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10538.msg128210#msg128210 date=1296002427] I have not read this whole thread, yet, but I believe the gentleman needs to change the title: "I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants."
Hahah ILSM I will change it just for you :D
also, do any of your churches use that red songs book?!
That book needs to go!
Omg my church uses that too. most of it is fine though... a couple not so good
NO i am sorry i refuse to post on this topic with this name! WE are an ORTHODOX CHURCH WITH ORTHODOX MEMBERS!! not protestants!
1) Yes the word Allah comes from the word ellat which is a name for a muslim God. Up till the 1950s the word was spelt differently. Now if u look you see an aliph on top of the shadda which was part of the old name!. Secondly i read and write arabic by the grace of God and the efforts of my parents.
2) Guys we have to identify what were talkign about here. The practice of clapping is not wrong, unless used in the wrong manner. The words of the bible cannot be broken. Secondly, the use of protestant songs is not wrong and yet it should only be monitored, for the sake of these reasons of change. THE CATHOLIC AND THE PROTE$STANT CHURCH didnt try to make small chagnes to those who bleive that it came from nowhere. THE PROTESTANT CHURCH REBELLED AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GOT RID OF MANY THINGS. were not saying that. i believe our church needs to be moer open minded and not judgemental. YOU GUYS are completely misunderstanding me. Im not saying to change the way we do things. but we need to allow for more things. Singing songs from these other denominations is not wrong. These people will also go to heaven. To TTTL YOU ARE WRONG. ASK YOUR FOC IF PROTESTANTS ARE GOING TO HELL??? fr peter clearly said it here./ IF they were going to hell then he would have said so. so clearly your point about it being a sattanic religion is wrong!
Admittiing that we are hardheaded and we need to move forward are the only two steps to finally have a revival in church. STOP M<AKING CHRIST HARD FOR PEOPLE!!! dont remove anything from the church but at least help the people and intrigue them to come by using these songs to attract them.
i remember in our church a few months ago in a nahda. We sang many many songs all orthodox. and being a deacon in my church i was told to chose another and i chose Lord reign in me. I DID NOT HEAR THE CHURCH LOUDER THAN WHEN WE SANG THAT SONG!!!! because the youth felt it! the youth understood. I DARE ANY OF YOU TO TELL ME THAT MUSIC IS WRONG. i mean classical music and the art of music. not the stuff we hear on the radio today. NO IT IS NOT. POPE SHENOUDA SAID IT HIMSELF IN HIS wednesday night sermons that the church cannot live without musicand he said music that provokes the body and emotions as father peter said is wrong. BUT WHAT ABOUT MUSIC SUCH AS THAT THAT MOVES THE EHART AND THE SPIRIT INSIDE!???? there is nothing wrong with that.
AGAIN WE SHOULDNT CHANGE OUT CHURCH we need to change our mentalities that only we are getting to heaven. we need to chagne the iea that other people are satanic like tttl said. we ned to see that it is okay to sing diferent songs. to praise our lords name. WHY ARE WE SUCH A DIFFICULT PEOPLE.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128221#msg128221 date=1296003487] AGAIN WE SHOULDNT CHANGE OUT CHURCH we need to change our mentalities that only we are getting to heaven. we need to chagne the iea that other people are satanic like tttl said. we ned to see that it is okay to sing diferent songs. to praise our lords name. WHY ARE WE SUCH A DIFFICULT PEOPLE.
We are difficult people! I am proud to say WE ARE THE MOST DIFFICULT PEOPLE! If we weren't the most difficult people on earth we would all be muslims! We never would have made an attempt to keep all of our churches great traditions! Traditions that people got tortured and died for!
You keep saying we shouldn't change the church! But you say we need to "change our mentalities".... I am saying it now NOTHING will ever make me change my coptic ORTHODOX mentality! I will have my head cut off before I let some teenagers start clapping in the middle of the liturgy because they dont understand what's going on! Changing our mentality will change our traditions!
So yes Danny, we are VERY difficult, hard headed people! We are resistant to change and that is the reason you can wake up in the morning and say I am COPTIC ORTHODOX!
Danny has convinced me, I decided to ask my dad on this matter and he agrees with danny, clapping is ok. If it is used to praise god. my opinions changed to if you are praising god do it while if you are doing it just for the fun of it then you are waisting your time and sinning, it may not be par of the tradition but playing instruments etc id not bad read the psalms then you will change your mind the psalms do say to clap your hands i feel that god wont look at if you danced, if you clapped, if you are protestant, or catholic, he will look at your heart. He will se if you praised him and kept his commandments and if you truly loved him and were truly his son. Dancing to praise god is not bad in gods sight but god accepts all praise from all the races but dancing or clapping just for the fun of it is a sin and is just like dancing to any other songs
[quote author=GeorgeT link=topic=10538.msg128228#msg128228 date=1296004679] Danny has convinced me, I decided to ask my dad on this matter and he agrees with danny, clapping is ok. If it is used to praise god. my opinions changed to if you are praising god do it while if you are doing it just for the fun of it then you are waisting your time and sinning, it may not be par of the tradition but playing instruments etc id not bad read the psalms then you will change your mind the psalms do say to clap your hands i feel that god wont look at if you danced, if you clapped, if you are protestant, or catholic, he will look at your heart. He will se if you praised him and kept his commandments and if you truly loved him and were truly his son. Dancing to praise god is not bad in gods sight but god accepts all praise from all the races but dancing or clapping just for the fun of it is a sin and is just like dancing to any other songs
Pray for me, George Tawfellos GBU
This isn't a matter of 'is clapping wrong?' This is the traditions that our ancestors died to protect are now being disregarded and replaced with some secular songs just because some people don't understand the liturgy!
So no clapping is not wrong, but clapping in the middle of the liturgy!? Yes very wrong... the body of teh lord is infront of you, you stand in reverence and the utmost respects.... we bow our heads before god, in humility! We don't get up and bust a move for J.C and his boys! (Jesus Christ and his apostles)
So go dance and praise God but when you're in church there is a certain way you are supposes to act!
To TTTL Whatever you said doesnt give you the right to condemn them as you did earlier.
I'm condemning the religion. The religion is a Satanic one. It should be condemned, as should Islam.
This is the same thing I run into, people perceive that I am condemning the people, which is unacceptable, I am condemning the religion. If that is perceived as wrong then the majority of the early church fathers were wrong in their condemnations of other religions, more than half of their tretsies and homilies begin with "Against.."
You raise a very good point, Ioannes. I was just trying to make a similar point to an Eastern Catholic acquaintance of mine who can't understand why I'm wanting to be Orthodox rather than Byzantine Catholic as he is: "But, Jeremy! Everything you like about Orthodoxy is in my church!" I told him that this is not true, and besides, you can't be Orthodox if you can't disagree with your Roman overlord, even when his theology completely contradicts your supposedly "Orthodox" theology. If you cannot condemn another's religion when necessary, then you are bound by whatever heresies they push on you. That doesn't sound like Christianity to me, or if it is, it certainly isn't apostolic Christianity, rooted in the faith of the Fathers...
To TTTL YOU ARE WRONG. ASK YOUR FOC IF PROTESTANTS ARE GOING TO HELL??? fr peter clearly said it here./ IF they were going to hell then he would have said so. so clearly your point about it being a sattanic religion is wrong!
As I said before and I will repeat again: I was taught that only the Orthodox will go to heaven. Protestants do not carry out any form of Sacraments in their church. They do not partake of the Holy Eucharist, read 1 Cor 11:26. They are not reborn in Baptism, read Mark 16:16. They are not absolved from sin through confession, read James 5:14. We were given specific instructions to follow. Protestants take what they like, and interpret the rest in their "own" way. This isn't Christianity; this is liberalism. One cannot be both.
Fr. Peter cannot answer if Protestants are going to hell for the same reason he cannot say if Muslims are going to hell, for the same reason he cannot say if Atheists are going to hell.
We can't generalize and say ALL protestants are going to hell because god judges, not us and as far as biblical references go jesus preached love, not rules and regulations.
I don't think there is something inherently wrong with clapping itself. I think it is alright in of itself, but the way I have seen it used is not OK. The way it is used in Protestant songs is not OK. The same with instruments. It isn't the instrument itself that is wrong, but the way its used. King David played the harp. Was that wrong? No. However the way the guitar is used in churches has become in a manner that is wrong.
I do feel there is a need for Orthodox songs in English, because our first priority is to bring Orthodoxy to the youth, and then teaching them Coptic is an added bonus over that (This isn't an argument against the Coptic language. It would be the same as Orthodox songs that were written in arabic to satisfy a need for the people.)
i remember in our church a few months ago in a nahda. We sang many many songs all orthodox. and being a deacon in my church i was told to chose another and i chose Lord reign in me. I DID NOT HEAR THE CHURCH LOUDER THAN WHEN WE SANG THAT SONG!!!! because the youth felt it! the youth understood.
This is exactly the problem. The kids would rather sing an "exciting" Protestant song, than a beautiful Orthodox song. This isn't one or two Protestant songs either. It has come to the point where the ratio is 100 Protestant Songs: 1 Orthodox song (no exaggeration). The appeal of most protestant songs to the youth, is that they're "exciting". I'd be fine with it if it was one or two Protestant songs that were examined closely for their tune and content, and finally deemed that they are okay.
Also, we don't judge Protestants, but we do judge Protestantism. I'm not to say whether Protestants will make it to heaven or not. I'm sure some have a a much better relationship with God in spite of the errors in their church.
However, if I may ask the ultimate question. What do Protestant songs have to offer that Orthodox songs don't. There are plenty of Orthodox songs in English, and they're much more beautiful than Protestant songs.
Anyway, sorry for the rushed post (that is my excuse for any errors in this post, which I'm sure you'll find several of. Please point them out if you find something I've written to be wrong by the way). I have quite a lot of work to do so please pray for me.
Let us stay away from the "whos going to heaven and whos going to hell" argument. What we do know is that Orthodoxy IS true Christianity, if you dont believe this then do not recite the creed, or atleast the part that says "and in one holy CATHOLIC (Universal) AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH", because you believe that protestantism is Christian.
Here are two reasons protestantism is NOT Christian. Every protestant church adheres to sola scriptura and sola fide, even JW's do! These are foreign to Orthodox Christianity, being invented by Luther in the 16th century. If we accept protestantism as Christian then we accept these doctrines. If we accept these doctrines then we not only contradict ourselves, but accept heresy into our church. Sola scriptura (Scripture alone) denies any sort of clergy, let alone church, in favor of scripture alone, or ones personal interpretation of it. Sola fide (by faith alone) says that it is by faith alone that we are saved. This doctrine alone denies ALL church sacraments and thereby cannot be accepted by Orthodoxy. The two pillars that comprise all of protestantism are heresy, not Orthodox, and based on that we can determine that protestantism is not Christian.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128255#msg128255 date=1296010345] Let us stay away from the "whos going to heaven and whos going to hell" argument. What we do know is that Orthodoxy IS true Christianity, if you dont believe this then do not recite the creed, or atleast the part that says "and in one holy CATHOLIC (Universal) AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH", because you believe that protestantism is Christian.
Here are two reasons protestantism is NOT Christian. Every protestant church adheres to sola scriptura and sola fide, even JW's do! These are foreign to Orthodox Christianity, being invented by Luther in the 16th century. If we accept protestantism as Christian then we accept these doctrines. If we accept these doctrines then we not only contradict ourselves, but accept heresy into our church. Sola scriptura (Scripture alone) denies any sort of clergy, let alone church, in favor of scripture alone, or ones personal interpretation of it. Sola fide (by faith alone) says that it is by faith alone that we are saved. This doctrine alone denies ALL church sacraments and thereby cannot be accepted by Orthodoxy. The two pillars that comprise all of protestantism are heresy, not Orthodox, and based on that we can determine that protestantism is not Christian.
Hence a protestant is going to heaven because of these practices but because of their personal relationship with god
This may seem harsh but if you can tell me that proestants are not christian and that they are not going to heaven than you need to evaluate your relationship with our lord jesus christ. Tttl what you were taught is wrong plain and simple. Whoever taught you that is wayyyyy off the charts and to evryone else who thinks protestants are nkt christians and they arent goinf to heaven be simple christians and see that gods love to you is the same as his lovr to them.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128259#msg128259 date=1296013947] This may seem harsh but if you can tell me that proestants are not christian and that they are not going to heaven than you need to evaluate your relationship with our lord jesus christ. Tttl what you were taught is wrong plain and simple. Whoever taught you that is wayyyyy off the charts and to evryone else who thinks protestants are nkt christians and they arent goinf to heaven be simple christians and see that gods love to you is the same as his lovr to them.
Pray for me
No one said "protestants are going to hell because they smell bad" no one is judging the protestants.... they pointed out that they do not believe in any sacraments... and the bible says if you dont do these sacraments you will no go to heaven.... we don't know how God will judge these people, but not us.... but according to the bible, those people are not christians!
Abanoub for callin them not christians you are not a perfect christian and you are judgeing them and ur not accepting them as ur brethren and they are! They dont believe in sacramwnts fine who are you to judge?! Let god dk that youbwill be judged more than they !!! For beig an orthodox son!! Pray for them dont judge them! I guarantee anyone on this thread isnt as close to god as they would liketo be and that there are protestants that are closer to god than myself!!
I believe its as simple as this ans as crazy as this sounds! If you can say that protestants are not christians ans that they are not ur brethren and that they will not make it to heaven than you will not be making it there either christian or not! Because by saying and thinking that you are less worthy than they are. They dont have sacraments but we are prideful and judgemental.
I commend you for your fervor in wanting to include all men and women who were created in God's image; I understand why you feel that those things that we are continuously presented with now in our world that fall under the guise of Christianity and Christian living should be considered to be proper. It seems that we live in a world where there are only a few of us, but many others who seem to be against us, who subscribe to different belief systems and the like, and so it, in worldly thought, would logically make sense to try to band together and see the good in one another, that we may attempt to achieve our goal of being united with God in this life and that which is to come after we finish our sojourn here.
I think that we should evaluate any situation in a fashion that may seem other-worldly at times, seasoned by the beliefs of the Church, shaped by the words of our Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father. There may, in fact, be good things here and there that we may find in some of the "songs" that are under discussion in this particular topic. Allow me to present you with an example. If I take a transparent cup and place water in it, I can see through the entire cup and see all that it contains. If I were to take a bit of red coloring dye, only the slightest bit, and place it within the cup, I certainly would still be able to see through the cup, but the water may lose some of its clarity; it will be tinted slightly by the dye that has been placed in it. If I continue to put more and more dye into the cup, the clarity is lost, and the water loses its purpose, the cup no longer communicating that which it was designed to do. Let us take a look at our most beautiful Orthodox Church, that which you and I most certainly hold very dearly in our hearts. If we consider the water to be Orthodoxy in its purest sense, then anything foreign to this Orthodoxy would certainly be considered a type of coloring dye. Is it not common in our language to say that if something or someone has been affected by some sort of thought, it has been colored in some manner? If we are to allow things which are characteristically un-Orthodox into the Church, we lose the clarity of the water, and have a most difficult time being able to sift through the cup to discover where the pure water ends and where the red dye begins. I do not say this as though Orthodoxy is simply some sort of concept or set of beliefs; Orthodoxy, in its purest sense, is that beautiful gift that Christ has given to the world, whose teachings have been entrusted to His most beloved apostles, and were communicated to the rest of the world by them with the guidance and love of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure that you would agree, as you are most certainly very fervent in your beliefs, that if God Himself has given you a gift, you would want to protect that gift at all costs, seeing it as the most valuable of things that has been given to you, given specifically for your salvation, for your continuing to grow in perfection, reaching into the endlessness of the love of God.
If I have been given a gift by someone whom I love dearly, and they have entrusted me with this gift that has meaning to me and to those around me, I would do everything in my power to be mindful of it at all times. Indeed, I would protect it to be sure that no one stole even the slightest particle of it; my eyes would be continually on it, my hands continuously trying to cover it from any infiltration, my mind and heart continuously realizing its value and being joyous for its presence, as well as a continued guardedness in fear of anyone corrupting it. We, unfortunately, have been presented with a situation in this world in which our feelings reign supreme, in which that which feels good must be good. This, of course, stretches to the extremes that we see in every day practice outside of the Church, but it also has manifested itself in the Church itself in more subtle ways. If I hear a catchy song, it stays in my mind as it moves me in some way, usually towards extreme happiness or towards empathic sadness, communicating what it is that I feel within myself. But, and I'm sure you'll agree with me on this as you give much thought to your words, feelings are often fleeting; they change so drastically from one moment to the next. Many people assume that if they “feel” as though they are truly praying, if they have a deep feeling of sorrow, that this must mean that they are praying effectively. Take, for example, the case when someone goes outside to do some very difficult yard work. When they come in from doing the work, they are exhausted and filled with sweat, and simply want to sit in one place to relax. Say at that moment that their spouse comes to them, and asks them “do you love me?” Surely, the person will say yes. If the spouse were to then ask “do you actually feel love for me at this particular instant?” the answer would be “I feel exhausted and sweaty, but I know with conviction that I love you.” So, then, feelings are not simply what we are to base our Orthodox manner of thinking on concerning prayer. Prayer is not simply based on feeling, nor is it the rubric by which we should base our faith. Emotions are one of the many tools that God has given us to glorify Him, but it is certainly not the ultimate, being as unstable as you will surely admit they are.
There is a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church who was once an evangelical Protestant. He has a very fascinating story as to how he finally came to find the Orthodox Church. In one of the talks that he gave, he mentioned that there is an inherent difference between Orthodoxy and Protestantism in the way that things are understood, an inherent difference that I assume most of us would not specify in the following manner. He said that the Protestant seeks to discover what it is that God can do for them, while the beauty of Orthodoxy is that, while it answers this question, it answers a fundamental question that precedes this first, a question that is inaccurately answered within the Protestant church. That question is “Who is God?” It is of primary importance that we seek after the answer to this, as after learning the answer to this, or rather, progressing actively in seeking this answer, the question of “what can God do for me?” becomes far more Orthodox, and in truth, far more correct with what it is that we should believe.
When we pray, we are able to find the answers to these questions, but it is only when we pray appropriately that we begin on this journey to discover Truth. If we praise God, we must do so in an accurate manner, accurate in the sense that the praise is in line with what God has revealed to us. This is why, within the Orthodox Church, prayer revolves around the written prayers that those who have proven themselves worthy in the faith before us. David the Psalmist was said to have the “heart of God.” Indeed, if I learn to pray in the manner in which he prayer, I will discover this heart as well. This is why monks will spend years memorizing the Psalms, wishing to not only pray, but to pray righteously, effectively, in line with what it is that God has revealed to us. If I pray to a god different than the true God, am I truly praying? The true God is the God that has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, whose teachings have been preserved within the Orthodox Church. It is this God who I should be seeking, a God that is not defined by how I view Him, but who has enlightened us with the revelations of Himself throughout the history of mankind.
If I simply use the words of Scripture to support or refute how we should practice our lives in this world, I will be lacking a complete view. The Church came before the written New Testament; of this, I am sure you are aware. The Bible is one of the many tools that guide us, but it is not the end-all-be-all. The Church, in its beautiful tradition, guides us using both that which we have learned from the Apostles that has not necessarily been written of in the Scripture, as well as the written word. Surely, we would not limit ourselves to only the words of the Bible, nor would we be so proud to think that we are above the Fathers of the Church in interpreting the true meaning of its verses. There are verses that may seem to have a very apparent meaning to them, but its in their intricate simplicity that we may be enlightened to their simple intricacies. I cannot simply, then, go into the Bible and find verses that support or refute my viewpoint; it is the Spirit of the Church which I must use as the rubric for this.
If I were to go meet the Queen of England, I would spend weeks and months on end trying to learn of the proper way in which I would address her, the proper actions that I would make out of respect to her, and so on. I would be conscious of each word which came out of my mouth, so as to ensure that not a single one of them would be misconstrued in a disrespective or offensive manner. God, though He is certainly a personal God, is entitled to all of the respect and adoration that I may ever be able to bestow on Him, and infinitely more than that. Would it not be reasonable, then, to say that I should be incredibly mindful of how it is that I speak with Him, how I address Him? If I called the Queen of England a duchess, I'm sure that she would be taken aback. The term still has respect entitled to it, but it is not the term with which I should address her. If words that are found in songs that are outside of the Church, but fall under what we imagine to be "Christian songs", color our understanding of God in such a way that we begin to lose the revealed Truth that we have received of Him through the Church, then I am doing myself a disservice. I lose out on the infinite amazement that only the Truth would be able to communicate, and I belittle Him into something that I may find to be easier to relate to, but which in fact is not characteristic of Him at all.
I, therefore, should try my best in learning that which has been given to me, not only in word but in Spirit and Truth, and in doing so, I will realize that there are thoughts in these songs that I would never want to refer to God with, not because they are inherently bad, but because anything that is inaccurate in its presentation of that which is Good must be taking me further away from Him. It is your responsibility as a Christian, a truly Orthodox Christian, to protect this Truth with your life, so that you may not lose out on anything that Christ has so willingly offered to you that you may in fact pass up without your knowing.
May God guide us in the path towards Him, towards our salvation, towards the continued growth resulting in the experience of His Love, childoforthodoxy
Ok we know that if you do not partake of the sacraments you wont go to heaven... according to the bible. We can actually judge that because it is clearly mentioned in the bible that the sacraments are the way to heaven. Now as orthodox who follow the sacraments, we have passed the first step to get to heaven. The second step is up to God's judgment.
Now another issue is brought up. Protestantism is a practice that is deceitful... Jehovah witnesses claim to be Christians, are they? NO. Mormons? NOPE... you see where im going. People might think they are being spiritual... anyone can think they are being spiritual. Muslims think they are, Buddhists, etc... Just because they might seem spiritual and believe they are doesnt mean they are.
It is very deceitful indeed. They make up their own God, that fits them and hide it under the umbrella called Christ.
Please start to see that. It goes to Orthodox people too, but we have guides, bestowed with the holy spirit of guidance. Protestants? NO GUIDANCE. and look where they are... hundreds of different denominations. What does that say about the Protestant church...? well you can decide your self.
I feel like you all are misunderstanding here! Look were discussing two things here! One that songs and clapping are not wrong and if u tell me they are wrong you dont know ur bible! And if you tell me that judging protestants and saying they arent going to heaven and that they are not christian THAN U R NOT A CHRISTIAN URSELF ! Im sorry for my attitude but i love my church and my lord jesus and i hate to see the church lose its children the way it is because of stubbornness and misguided people!! Were losin our flock and bringingnppl away from christ because of our stoffnecked mentality!! Let me ask you one question! You asked jesus christ today can u love me and forgivr me! But ur a protstant And you were brought up that way you dont mnow better! WILL OUR LOVING LORD SAY NO I HATE U U WILL NOT BE FORIGVEN? those who say yesto that Do Not Know Jesus!! Those are the ones who will be cast out because we went to the orthosox chirch and this and that but we dont have a relationship with god!!!! Our relationships are only with the church!! Not jesus christ! What do any of us know about jesus christ himselff???? Does anyone hear know how to be led by gods spirit??? WKe up guys we will be judged we will be the ones cast out if we dont realoze that we need to love and need to have a relationship with the ever existent love that is GOD
We are not discussing songs and clapping, we're discussing how these protestant influences are coming into our churches! Clap and sing all you want, but keep it out of the house of God, we have our own traditions, if someone really wants these protestant traditions they can go to a protestant church, they are everywhere.
And secondly, no one is judging protestants! Idk about everyone else but I am judging PROTESTANTISM..... I am simply stating that the ideologies and belief's of the protestant "church" (i use the word church very loosely) are not those that were taught in the bible.
Comments
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128169#msg128169 date=1295997164]
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not??
how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan??
well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
We are fixing it. When they print arabic bibles now, they never use the word allah. they replace it with rabena or elahna, or even elohim
Do they really? Wow. I think that is a mistake.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=10538.msg128184#msg128184 date=1295998871]
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128169#msg128169 date=1295997164]
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not??
how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan??
well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
We are fixing it. When they print arabic bibles now, they never use the word allah. they replace it with rabena or elahna, or even elohim
Do they really? Wow. I think that is a mistake.
Why? We only started using the word allah so the muslims would stop slaughtering us...same reason we adopted the arabic language in the first place.
Allah is just the name for muslim god. muhamed took all the idols the arabs worshiped and put them together and called it that and it just got transfered to mean an unseen god. I think its almost blasphemous to use it.
I have not read this whole thread, yet, but I believe the gentleman needs to change the title: "I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants."
Hahah ILSM
I will change it just for you :D
also, do any of your churches use that red songs book?!
That book needs to go!
Epiphania: This probably isn't the thread for it, but the short answer is that you are right about Arabic and its history in Egypt, but that doesn't mean that changing the name used in Arabic Bibles wouldn't have wider repercussions that could be very negative. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews used "Allah" for hundreds of years before Islam ever existed (pagans also used it). Seceding it to Muslims is to confirm the warped theology they have wrapped up in their particular use of that word (it's a proper name, it's proof that God speaks Arabic, etc.), which I think is very bad and could place Christians in danger, even outside of Arabic-speaking countries. A little while ago Christians in Malaysia were forbidden from using "Allah" in their publications because it offended Muslims, and some churches were threatened and people were hurt over this stupid issue because "Allah" is a 'Muslim' word (nevermind that it is a loanword for all Malaysians, regardless of their religion...were the Christians supposed to import a word of their own rather than offend the Muslims? That's stupid). I think giving up the word "Allah" in Arabic Bibles feeds into the Arab-Islamic supremacist narrative of history and current events and weakens the position of the native Christians of the Middle East.
The alternative situation wherein Copts stop using "Allah" along with the entirety of the Arabic language that has been foisted upon them by Muslims would be great and 100% supported by me, but is extremely unlikely to ever happen given the status of their native language.
Alright, I guess that wasn't such a short answer. Haha. Sorry. I can write for days about this stuff, because linguistics is my job and my passion. :-[
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10538.msg128210#msg128210 date=1296002427]
I have not read this whole thread, yet, but I believe the gentleman needs to change the title: "I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants."
Hahah ILSM
I will change it just for you :D
also, do any of your churches use that red songs book?!
That book needs to go!
Omg my church uses that too. most of it is fine though... a couple not so good
1) Yes the word Allah comes from the word ellat which is a name for a muslim God. Up till the 1950s the word was spelt differently. Now if u look you see an aliph on top of the shadda which was part of the old name!. Secondly i read and write arabic by the grace of God and the efforts of my parents.
2) Guys we have to identify what were talkign about here. The practice of clapping is not wrong, unless used in the wrong manner. The words of the bible cannot be broken. Secondly, the use of protestant songs is not wrong and yet it should only be monitored, for the sake of these reasons of change. THE CATHOLIC AND THE PROTE$STANT CHURCH didnt try to make small chagnes to those who bleive that it came from nowhere. THE PROTESTANT CHURCH REBELLED AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GOT RID OF MANY THINGS. were not saying that. i believe our church needs to be moer open minded and not judgemental. YOU GUYS are completely misunderstanding me. Im not saying to change the way we do things. but we need to allow for more things. Singing songs from these other denominations is not wrong. These people will also go to heaven. To TTTL YOU ARE WRONG. ASK YOUR FOC IF PROTESTANTS ARE GOING TO HELL??? fr peter clearly said it here./ IF they were going to hell then he would have said so. so clearly your point about it being a sattanic religion is wrong!
Admittiing that we are hardheaded and we need to move forward are the only two steps to finally have a revival in church. STOP M<AKING CHRIST HARD FOR PEOPLE!!! dont remove anything from the church but at least help the people and intrigue them to come by using these songs to attract them.
i remember in our church a few months ago in a nahda. We sang many many songs all orthodox. and being a deacon in my church i was told to chose another and i chose Lord reign in me. I DID NOT HEAR THE CHURCH LOUDER THAN WHEN WE SANG THAT SONG!!!! because the youth felt it! the youth understood. I DARE ANY OF YOU TO TELL ME THAT MUSIC IS WRONG. i mean classical music and the art of music. not the stuff we hear on the radio today. NO IT IS NOT. POPE SHENOUDA SAID IT HIMSELF IN HIS wednesday night sermons that the church cannot live without musicand he said music that provokes the body and emotions as father peter said is wrong. BUT WHAT ABOUT MUSIC SUCH AS THAT THAT MOVES THE EHART AND THE SPIRIT INSIDE!???? there is nothing wrong with that.
AGAIN WE SHOULDNT CHANGE OUT CHURCH we need to change our mentalities that only we are getting to heaven. we need to chagne the iea that other people are satanic like tttl said. we ned to see that it is okay to sing diferent songs. to praise our lords name. WHY ARE WE SUCH A DIFFICULT PEOPLE.
AGAIN WE SHOULDNT CHANGE OUT CHURCH we need to change our mentalities that only we are getting to heaven. we need to chagne the iea that other people are satanic like tttl said. we ned to see that it is okay to sing diferent songs. to praise our lords name. WHY ARE WE SUCH A DIFFICULT PEOPLE.
We are difficult people! I am proud to say WE ARE THE MOST DIFFICULT PEOPLE! If we weren't the most difficult people on earth we would all be muslims! We never would have made an attempt to keep all of our churches great traditions! Traditions that people got tortured and died for!
You keep saying we shouldn't change the church! But you say we need to "change our mentalities".... I am saying it now NOTHING will ever make me change my coptic ORTHODOX mentality! I will have my head cut off before I let some teenagers start clapping in the middle of the liturgy because they dont understand what's going on! Changing our mentality will change our traditions!
So yes Danny, we are VERY difficult, hard headed people! We are resistant to change and that is the reason you can wake up in the morning and say I am COPTIC ORTHODOX!
I decided to ask my dad on this matter and he agrees with danny, clapping is ok. If it is used to praise god. my opinions changed to if you are praising god do it while if you are doing it just for the fun of it then you are waisting your time and sinning, it may not be par of the tradition but playing instruments etc id not bad read the psalms then you will change your mind the psalms do say to clap your hands i feel that god wont look at if you danced, if you clapped, if you are protestant, or catholic, he will look at your heart. He will se if you praised him and kept his commandments and if you truly loved him and were truly his son. Dancing to praise god is not bad in gods sight but god accepts all praise from all the races but dancing or clapping just for the fun of it is a sin and is just like dancing to any other songs
Pray for me,
George Tawfellos
GBU
Danny has convinced me,
I decided to ask my dad on this matter and he agrees with danny, clapping is ok. If it is used to praise god. my opinions changed to if you are praising god do it while if you are doing it just for the fun of it then you are waisting your time and sinning, it may not be par of the tradition but playing instruments etc id not bad read the psalms then you will change your mind the psalms do say to clap your hands i feel that god wont look at if you danced, if you clapped, if you are protestant, or catholic, he will look at your heart. He will se if you praised him and kept his commandments and if you truly loved him and were truly his son. Dancing to praise god is not bad in gods sight but god accepts all praise from all the races but dancing or clapping just for the fun of it is a sin and is just like dancing to any other songs
Pray for me,
George Tawfellos
GBU
This isn't a matter of 'is clapping wrong?' This is the traditions that our ancestors died to protect are now being disregarded and replaced with some secular songs just because some people don't understand the liturgy!
So no clapping is not wrong, but clapping in the middle of the liturgy!? Yes very wrong... the body of teh lord is infront of you, you stand in reverence and the utmost respects.... we bow our heads before god, in humility! We don't get up and bust a move for J.C and his boys! (Jesus Christ and his apostles)
So go dance and praise God but when you're in church there is a certain way you are supposes to act!
This is the same thing I run into, people perceive that I am condemning the people, which is unacceptable, I am condemning the religion. If that is perceived as wrong then the majority of the early church fathers were wrong in their condemnations of other religions, more than half of their tretsies and homilies begin with "Against.."
Fr. Peter cannot answer if Protestants are going to hell for the same reason he cannot say if Muslims are going to hell, for the same reason he cannot say if Atheists are going to hell.
One cannot have desire without structure. Protestants preach desire first, structure second. Orthodox is opposite.
I do feel there is a need for Orthodox songs in English, because our first priority is to bring Orthodoxy to the youth, and then teaching them Coptic is an added bonus over that (This isn't an argument against the Coptic language. It would be the same as Orthodox songs that were written in arabic to satisfy a need for the people.) This is exactly the problem. The kids would rather sing an "exciting" Protestant song, than a beautiful Orthodox song. This isn't one or two Protestant songs either. It has come to the point where the ratio is 100 Protestant Songs: 1 Orthodox song (no exaggeration). The appeal of most protestant songs to the youth, is that they're "exciting". I'd be fine with it if it was one or two Protestant songs that were examined closely for their tune and content, and finally deemed that they are okay.
Also, we don't judge Protestants, but we do judge Protestantism. I'm not to say whether Protestants will make it to heaven or not. I'm sure some have a a much better relationship with God in spite of the errors in their church.
However, if I may ask the ultimate question. What do Protestant songs have to offer that Orthodox songs don't. There are plenty of Orthodox songs in English, and they're much more beautiful than Protestant songs.
Anyway, sorry for the rushed post (that is my excuse for any errors in this post, which I'm sure you'll find several of. Please point them out if you find something I've written to be wrong by the way). I have quite a lot of work to do so please pray for me.
Here are two reasons protestantism is NOT Christian. Every protestant church adheres to sola scriptura and sola fide, even JW's do! These are foreign to Orthodox Christianity, being invented by Luther in the 16th century. If we accept protestantism as Christian then we accept these doctrines. If we accept these doctrines then we not only contradict ourselves, but accept heresy into our church. Sola scriptura (Scripture alone) denies any sort of clergy, let alone church, in favor of scripture alone, or ones personal interpretation of it. Sola fide (by faith alone) says that it is by faith alone that we are saved. This doctrine alone denies ALL church sacraments and thereby cannot be accepted by Orthodoxy. The two pillars that comprise all of protestantism are heresy, not Orthodox, and based on that we can determine that protestantism is not Christian.
Let us stay away from the "whos going to heaven and whos going to hell" argument. What we do know is that Orthodoxy IS true Christianity, if you dont believe this then do not recite the creed, or atleast the part that says "and in one holy CATHOLIC (Universal) AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH", because you believe that protestantism is Christian.
Here are two reasons protestantism is NOT Christian. Every protestant church adheres to sola scriptura and sola fide, even JW's do! These are foreign to Orthodox Christianity, being invented by Luther in the 16th century. If we accept protestantism as Christian then we accept these doctrines. If we accept these doctrines then we not only contradict ourselves, but accept heresy into our church. Sola scriptura (Scripture alone) denies any sort of clergy, let alone church, in favor of scripture alone, or ones personal interpretation of it. Sola fide (by faith alone) says that it is by faith alone that we are saved. This doctrine alone denies ALL church sacraments and thereby cannot be accepted by Orthodoxy. The two pillars that comprise all of protestantism are heresy, not Orthodox, and based on that we can determine that protestantism is not Christian.
Hence a protestant is going to heaven because of these practices but because of their personal relationship with god
Pray for me
This may seem harsh but if you can tell me that proestants are not christian and that they are not going to heaven than you need to evaluate your relationship with our lord jesus christ. Tttl what you were taught is wrong plain and simple. Whoever taught you that is wayyyyy off the charts and to evryone else who thinks protestants are nkt christians and they arent goinf to heaven be simple christians and see that gods love to you is the same as his lovr to them.
Pray for me
No one said "protestants are going to hell because they smell bad" no one is judging the protestants.... they pointed out that they do not believe in any sacraments... and the bible says if you dont do these sacraments you will no go to heaven.... we don't know how God will judge these people, but not us.... but according to the bible, those people are not christians!
Protestantism is not christian, so if you practice protestantism you shouldn't consider youself Christian because youre deceiving yourself
I commend you for your fervor in wanting to include all men and women who were created in God's image; I understand why you feel that those things that we are continuously presented with now in our world that fall under the guise of Christianity and Christian living should be considered to be proper. It seems that we live in a world where there are only a few of us, but many others who seem to be against us, who subscribe to different belief systems and the like, and so it, in worldly thought, would logically make sense to try to band together and see the good in one another, that we may attempt to achieve our goal of being united with God in this life and that which is to come after we finish our sojourn here.
I think that we should evaluate any situation in a fashion that may seem other-worldly at times, seasoned by the beliefs of the Church, shaped by the words of our Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father. There may, in fact, be good things here and there that we may find in some of the "songs" that are under discussion in this particular topic. Allow me to present you with an example. If I take a transparent cup and place water in it, I can see through the entire cup and see all that it contains. If I were to take a bit of red coloring dye, only the slightest bit, and place it within the cup, I certainly would still be able to see through the cup, but the water may lose some of its clarity; it will be tinted slightly by the dye that has been placed in it. If I continue to put more and more dye into the cup, the clarity is lost, and the water loses its purpose, the cup no longer communicating that which it was designed to do. Let us take a look at our most beautiful Orthodox Church, that which you and I most certainly hold very dearly in our hearts. If we consider the water to be Orthodoxy in its purest sense, then anything foreign to this Orthodoxy would certainly be considered a type of coloring dye. Is it not common in our language to say that if something or someone has been affected by some sort of thought, it has been colored in some manner? If we are to allow things which are characteristically un-Orthodox into the Church, we lose the clarity of the water, and have a most difficult time being able to sift through the cup to discover where the pure water ends and where the red dye begins. I do not say this as though Orthodoxy is simply some sort of concept or set of beliefs; Orthodoxy, in its purest sense, is that beautiful gift that Christ has given to the world, whose teachings have been entrusted to His most beloved apostles, and were communicated to the rest of the world by them with the guidance and love of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure that you would agree, as you are most certainly very fervent in your beliefs, that if God Himself has given you a gift, you would want to protect that gift at all costs, seeing it as the most valuable of things that has been given to you, given specifically for your salvation, for your continuing to grow in perfection, reaching into the endlessness of the love of God.
If I have been given a gift by someone whom I love dearly, and they have entrusted me with this gift that has meaning to me and to those around me, I would do everything in my power to be mindful of it at all times. Indeed, I would protect it to be sure that no one stole even the slightest particle of it; my eyes would be continually on it, my hands continuously trying to cover it from any infiltration, my mind and heart continuously realizing its value and being joyous for its presence, as well as a continued guardedness in fear of anyone corrupting it. We, unfortunately, have been presented with a situation in this world in which our feelings reign supreme, in which that which feels good must be good. This, of course, stretches to the extremes that we see in every day practice outside of the Church, but it also has manifested itself in the Church itself in more subtle ways. If I hear a catchy song, it stays in my mind as it moves me in some way, usually towards extreme happiness or towards empathic sadness, communicating what it is that I feel within myself. But, and I'm sure you'll agree with me on this as you give much thought to your words, feelings are often fleeting; they change so drastically from one moment to the next. Many people assume that if they “feel” as though they are truly praying, if they have a deep feeling of sorrow, that this must mean that they are praying effectively. Take, for example, the case when someone goes outside to do some very difficult yard work. When they come in from doing the work, they are exhausted and filled with sweat, and simply want to sit in one place to relax. Say at that moment that their spouse comes to them, and asks them “do you love me?” Surely, the person will say yes. If the spouse were to then ask “do you actually feel love for me at this particular instant?” the answer would be “I feel exhausted and sweaty, but I know with conviction that I love you.” So, then, feelings are not simply what we are to base our Orthodox manner of thinking on concerning prayer. Prayer is not simply based on feeling, nor is it the rubric by which we should base our faith. Emotions are one of the many tools that God has given us to glorify Him, but it is certainly not the ultimate, being as unstable as you will surely admit they are.
There is a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church who was once an evangelical Protestant. He has a very fascinating story as to how he finally came to find the Orthodox Church. In one of the talks that he gave, he mentioned that there is an inherent difference between Orthodoxy and Protestantism in the way that things are understood, an inherent difference that I assume most of us would not specify in the following manner. He said that the Protestant seeks to discover what it is that God can do for them, while the beauty of Orthodoxy is that, while it answers this question, it answers a fundamental question that precedes this first, a question that is inaccurately answered within the Protestant church. That question is “Who is God?” It is of primary importance that we seek after the answer to this, as after learning the answer to this, or rather, progressing actively in seeking this answer, the question of “what can God do for me?” becomes far more Orthodox, and in truth, far more correct with what it is that we should believe.
When we pray, we are able to find the answers to these questions, but it is only when we pray appropriately that we begin on this journey to discover Truth. If we praise God, we must do so in an accurate manner, accurate in the sense that the praise is in line with what God has revealed to us. This is why, within the Orthodox Church, prayer revolves around the written prayers that those who have proven themselves worthy in the faith before us. David the Psalmist was said to have the “heart of God.” Indeed, if I learn to pray in the manner in which he prayer, I will discover this heart as well. This is why monks will spend years memorizing the Psalms, wishing to not only pray, but to pray righteously, effectively, in line with what it is that God has revealed to us. If I pray to a god different than the true God, am I truly praying? The true God is the God that has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, whose teachings have been preserved within the Orthodox Church. It is this God who I should be seeking, a God that is not defined by how I view Him, but who has enlightened us with the revelations of Himself throughout the history of mankind.
If I simply use the words of Scripture to support or refute how we should practice our lives in this world, I will be lacking a complete view. The Church came before the written New Testament; of this, I am sure you are aware. The Bible is one of the many tools that guide us, but it is not the end-all-be-all. The Church, in its beautiful tradition, guides us using both that which we have learned from the Apostles that has not necessarily been written of in the Scripture, as well as the written word. Surely, we would not limit ourselves to only the words of the Bible, nor would we be so proud to think that we are above the Fathers of the Church in interpreting the true meaning of its verses. There are verses that may seem to have a very apparent meaning to them, but its in their intricate simplicity that we may be enlightened to their simple intricacies. I cannot simply, then, go into the Bible and find verses that support or refute my viewpoint; it is the Spirit of the Church which I must use as the rubric for this.
If I were to go meet the Queen of England, I would spend weeks and months on end trying to learn of the proper way in which I would address her, the proper actions that I would make out of respect to her, and so on. I would be conscious of each word which came out of my mouth, so as to ensure that not a single one of them would be misconstrued in a disrespective or offensive manner. God, though He is certainly a personal God, is entitled to all of the respect and adoration that I may ever be able to bestow on Him, and infinitely more than that. Would it not be reasonable, then, to say that I should be incredibly mindful of how it is that I speak with Him, how I address Him? If I called the Queen of England a duchess, I'm sure that she would be taken aback. The term still has respect entitled to it, but it is not the term with which I should address her. If words that are found in songs that are outside of the Church, but fall under what we imagine to be "Christian songs", color our understanding of God in such a way that we begin to lose the revealed Truth that we have received of Him through the Church, then I am doing myself a disservice. I lose out on the infinite amazement that only the Truth would be able to communicate, and I belittle Him into something that I may find to be easier to relate to, but which in fact is not characteristic of Him at all.
I, therefore, should try my best in learning that which has been given to me, not only in word but in Spirit and Truth, and in doing so, I will realize that there are thoughts in these songs that I would never want to refer to God with, not because they are inherently bad, but because anything that is inaccurate in its presentation of that which is Good must be taking me further away from Him. It is your responsibility as a Christian, a truly Orthodox Christian, to protect this Truth with your life, so that you may not lose out on anything that Christ has so willingly offered to you that you may in fact pass up without your knowing.
May God guide us in the path towards Him, towards our salvation, towards the continued growth resulting in the experience of His Love,
childoforthodoxy
Now another issue is brought up. Protestantism is a practice that is deceitful... Jehovah witnesses claim to be Christians, are they? NO. Mormons? NOPE... you see where im going. People might think they are being spiritual... anyone can think they are being spiritual. Muslims think they are, Buddhists, etc... Just because they might seem spiritual and believe they are doesnt mean they are.
It is very deceitful indeed. They make up their own God, that fits them and hide it under the umbrella called Christ.
Please start to see that. It goes to Orthodox people too, but we have guides, bestowed with the holy spirit of guidance. Protestants? NO GUIDANCE. and look where they are... hundreds of different denominations. What does that say about the Protestant church...? well you can decide your self.
You asked jesus christ today can u love me and forgivr me! But ur a protstant And you were brought up that way you dont mnow better! WILL OUR LOVING LORD SAY NO I HATE U U WILL NOT BE FORIGVEN? those who say yesto that Do Not Know Jesus!!
Those are the ones who will be cast out because we went to the orthosox chirch and this and that but we dont have a relationship with god!!!! Our relationships are only with the church!! Not jesus christ! What do any of us know about jesus christ himselff???? Does anyone hear know how to be led by gods spirit??? WKe up guys we will be judged we will be the ones cast out if we dont realoze that we need to love and need to have a relationship with the ever existent love that is GOD
And secondly, no one is judging protestants! Idk about everyone else but I am judging PROTESTANTISM..... I am simply stating that the ideologies and belief's of the protestant "church" (i use the word church very loosely) are not those that were taught in the bible.