The translation of Orthodoxy according to the African culture. So, in Africa, the people pray whilst clapping hands, they use guitars and drums IN the Coptic Church. The Bishop there is quite charismatic. He's a brilliant man. Really. but he forgets to tell the youth that they are in Africa. The youth go back to where they came from (UK, France, Canada, USA), and they have the mindset that "its OK to change Orthodox Traditions for the sake of cultural requirements".
Boulos - the bishop of Kenya referred to above- is Protestant ever since he was a layman attending the Pentecostal meetings in Egypt. It is not because of his songs or adaption to african culture, but because of the content of his teachings and practice that lacks any orthodox content.
You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination. Look at the total picture:
Boulos of Kenya is a brilliant business man, able to raise millions of dollars in a day. He is quite connected and social, and charismatic. He is quite popular when it comes to the youth, a darling of aristocratic ladies, eloquent, a media puppy and has excellent political ties.
Many of the servants who are connected to him were recommended to priesthood by him and he has pulled some major strings to get them through the door of priesthood. They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C. and Toronto, and they exhibit the same characterstics as their teacher. Everybody knows the content of their faith, and it is 100% Protestant, but they are also money machines who have the ability to raise millions. They are indispensible. You have to be realistic about it.
They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C.
Lol Abouna Anthony.
[quote author=GeorgeT link=topic=10538.msg128358#msg128358 date=1296071821] I CURRENTLY AM CONFUSED ON WHAT IS RIGHT SO I WILL JUST GO ON THE SAME SIDE AS FR.pETER
Good idea, I'm with you on just agreeing with whatever Fr. Peter says ;)
The translation of Orthodoxy according to the African culture. So, in Africa, the people pray whilst clapping hands, they use guitars and drums IN the Coptic Church. The Bishop there is quite charismatic. He's a brilliant man. Really. but he forgets to tell the youth that they are in Africa. The youth go back to where they came from (UK, France, Canada, USA), and they have the mindset that "its OK to change Orthodox Traditions for the sake of cultural requirements".
Boulos - the bishop of Kenya referred to above- is Protestant ever since he was a layman attending the Pentecostal meetings in Egypt. It is not because of his songs or adaption to african culture, but because of the content of his teachings and practice that lacks any orthodox content.
You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination. Look at the total picture:
Boulos of Kenya is a brilliant business man, able to raise millions of dollars in a day. He is quite connected and social, and charismatic. He is quite popular when it comes to the youth, a darling of aristocratic ladies, eloquent, a media puppy and has excellent political ties.
Many of the servants who are connected to him were recommended to priesthood by him and he has pulled some major strings to get them through the door of priesthood. They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C. and Toronto, and they exhibit the same characterstics as their teacher. Everybody knows the content of their faith, and it is 100% Protestant, but they are also money machines who have the ability to raise millions. They are indispensible. You have to be realistic about it.
Ummm....so we should start getting protestant in church because they make money.... ok you've convinced me! Yeah everyone lets go burn our 'service of the deacon' books! The protestants are making money! Yea, lets go clap and sing in the streets!! Oh happy day, we can all buy our tickets to heaven....
Hello All, Before beginning I am praying that God will open up my mind and heart and that His Holy Spirit might inspire the words that are typed on this computer as I am terrified whenever I speak about a matter that seems to cause a lot of commotion.
I will address the following point by point.
1) What is the definition of Protestantism We cannot say that something is defined as protestant unless it falls under certain criteria. What makes anything ‘Protestant’? Protestant in its roots is to protest against the certain teaching of the straight path of Orthodoxy. In a small summary and not inclusive of everything 1)Protestants deny the 7 Holy Mysteries (not all some take 3 of the 7) which are a means of grace and Salvation 2)Apostolic Succession 3)Intersession and Prayers of the saints 4)the Ever Virginity of Our Holy Mother Saint Mary 5)they deny the importance of Works in Salvation 6) Their Doctrine on Atonement and Election are extremely misunderstood taking away from the Our Lord and Saviors purpose of Salvation 7) Various other theological Matters We define our denominations according to their theology, as well as their history, culture and demographics and so on. For example, we speak of the “Russian Orthodox Church”, and we know we are speaking of a group of Christians who hold to an Eastern Orthodox theology, who are mostly of Russian descent, although there are many members from other ethnic backgrounds, and who use chants and prayers and hymns in the Russian language and style.
But which of those descriptions is essential for the salvation of the Russian Orthodox individual? Which of them really characterises what it means to be Russian Orthodox? Do you have to be Russian? Do you have to speak Russian? Do you have to use that particular musical style? Certainly, the style helps define the CULTURE, but it does not define the FAITH. Greek, Macedonian and Japanese Orthodox Christians all hold to exactly the same faith, the same theology, yet they express their faith differently, according to their own culture and style of music. Without doubt, a style of music should enhance and complement one’s faith and beliefs, but there is nothing in our faith to say that only one particular style of music is going to do that.
Don’t get me wrong – I am absolutely in love with the rich treasure trove of Coptic Hymnology. I wish everyone could taste it and enter into the beautiful world of the spirit it can open up. I believe strongly that it should be carefully preserved and experienced and passed on intact and inviolate to the next generation. But I also believe that there can be room in our lives for more than one style of music.
A musical style cannot, in itself, be ‘Protestant’. Yes, perhaps historically Protestants have tended to use it, but that doesn’t give them ownership over that style, anymore than Protestants doing mathematics gives them ownership over the set of natural numbers. Can you imagine that? “No! We mustn’t count in our Church! We’d become Protestants!”
What About Instruments? H.H Pope Shenouda allows a OHwood(I guess its like and Egyptian guitar) to be used on his Wednesday night meetings in order that the congregations heart may be drawn and focus prior to his lecture. Is our Blessed Pope protestant because he has introduced an instument with songs into the church? God Forbid!
2) “This is not our tradition.” It is true that we are blessed with a long and rich tradition of worship in the Coptic Church. Not only does our Liturgy trace its roots back directly to Apostolic times, but our hymns go back even further. It is truly awesome to walk into Church in procession on a major feast day singing the very words and tunes that the ancient Egyptians would sing as the Pharoah entered the Temple in procession! It astounds me and humbles me to think of the hymn Epouro cascading down the generations of the past three or four millenia to land on our threshold here in the United States in the 21st century! This is a precious pearl to be carefully guarded and preserved, and we have a tremendous responsibility to pass on to our children the good sense to enjoy it and appreciate it, and the immense importance of preserving it. This we do in many ways already, and we are planning more ways to implement in the future, such as DVDs explaining the liturgy and a Children’s Liturgy. But having one precious and ancient pearl does not prevent you from also acquiring some less unique treasures, does it? Why should we not preserve the beautiful and pristine traditions of our Church while at the same time also using the culture of modern America? This is nothing new. When the Apostles met at Jerusalem to discuss the rules to be imposed upon the Gentile converts to Christianity, they came down very firmly on the side of allowing them to keep their own culture and ways of doing things, so long as they did not transgress the Law of Christ. They would not even impose upon them the practices of the synagogue, although until then, all Christians had been Jews and had simultaneously attneded both synagogue and Christian liturgy. When the Hebrew St Mark the Apostle came to Alexandria, he did not impose Hebrew musical styles on the Egyptians, but allowed them to tailor the style of the liturgy to their own tastes, so long as they built faithfully on the skeleton of dogma he gave them. And three hundred years later, when the unparalleled Champion of Orthodoxy, St Athanasius, sent St Frumentius to establish a Church in Ethiopia, he did not insist at all on the Ethiopians adhering to Egyptian culture. Rather he allowed them to adapt their own familiar culture, once again, and use it to build a tradition on the foundation of the correct faith. Yes, our tradition must be preserved, because we are the only ones who can preserve it as a living tradition, rather than in the reference books and libraries of the world. I would personally hate to see the raw and honest contact we make with God in the Liturgy where we use only our voices to worship Him replaced by some loud amplified musical instruments drowning out our voices. There is no place for modern music in an ancient rite like this. But many of our youth understand that loving and preserving Coptic music doesn’t stop you from enjoying modern music. In fact, the kind of person who usually enjoys Coptic music the most is the musical personality type. This gift allows them to see deeper into its structure and logic. But that is also exactly the same person who is most likely to appreciate any style of music! For decades, we in the Coptic Church have had a sort of split personality when it comes to western music. We sing it in our Youth Meetings and yet we warn our youth against it on the radio and in video clips. To a great extent, this is a very valid attitude, for the motivation and intention of the musical artist and the nature of the lyrics and their message are critical to deciding whether that music is going to help or hinder my walk with Christ. But I think we must guard against throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Music that is being used with the intention of bringing one closer to Christ, and that has enough in it to lend it effectiveness to achieve that goal should not be dismissed, particularly if it may be the best point of contact with some of our youth who are feeling alien in Church. We must cater for the needs of those who should be in Church, not only for those who already are in Church, or else those outside will never want to come in.
3)“Rock music is satanic. Any music with a beat, or worse, with a drum beat, is evil.”
This objection is based, I suppose, on the fairly valid physiological finding that our bodies do enjoy synchronising with an external rhythm. You experience this when you hear a snazzy tune and your foot starts to tap in time with it. Or perhaps when you watch a troop marching and feel like getting up and joining in their apparently perfect regularity. Of course, dancing, modern and ancient, also depend a lot on this rhythm. But I cannot see that rhythm is in and of itself in any way evil. In fact, music that does not possess rhythm is usually quite unacceptable to our ears. Classical music has rhythm. Middle Eastern Church hymns have rhythm. Liturgical responses have rhythm (often set by the triangle and cymbals). Tasbeha Praises are boiling over with rhythm. One of them, in fact, the First Hoas, uses rhythm to powerfully evoke a sense of marching along with the children of Israel as Moses led them through the Red Sea and out of Egypt. It is a true ‘marching song’. Does this therefore make them evil, because they have the power to draw attention to themselves and engross us, perhaps even hypnotize us with their beat? I don’t know anyone who would say that. Surely then, it is the lyrics of the song, the intent of the composer and the intent of the singer that makes a song of good or evil effect? There are love songs on the pop charts that become the most beautiful prayers of love for God if you just replace the guy/girl the composer intended with God, and direct the words to Him. Of course there are others that a lost cause however hard you try to ‘baptize’ them. In our African Coptic Churches every Sunday, there are drums being played along with the traditional cymbals and triangles. That is their culture, and they do not feel that a song is complete if it does not have a drum accompaniment. The worshippers sway from side to side gently as they sing the liturgical responses; try and stop them! It’s part of the expression of their joy in praising God. Like David the Prophet, they are ‘dancing to the Lord’. And why would you want to stop them? It’s quite moving to watch and inspiring to take part in. Now we are not talking here about introducing a band of various instuments into the liturgy – God forbid! Our beautiful ancient rites are of a totally different nature and serve a totally different purpose. Where there is joy in the liturgy, it is of the more solemn type, suitable for being in the direct physical presence of the Creator of worlds whose real Body and Blood rest upon the altar. But when we are outside the solemnities of the liturgy (or any other traditional Coptic rite for that matter), surely there is a degree of freedom to use whatever musical style speaks most effectively to our hearts? The one does not cancel out the other, but the same person can enjoy both, deeply and fully, in the different situations and environments.
What About Moving Forward? I definitely love all of your passion for the traditions of our church because it truly is a treasure and people have shed their blood preserving our faith. I do want to make a point on tradition in the orthodox concept. In our Orthodox point of view, Holy Tradition is the life of the Church throughout the history, which is guided and renewed by the Holy Spirit. One of the church fathers says “Tradition is not a book which records a certain moment in the development of the Church and stops itself, but a book that is always written by the Church’s life. Tradition continues always and now not less than formerly, we live in Tradition and create it. Nevertheless, the sacred Tradition of the past exists for us as present living in our lives and consciousness.” Holy Tradition must be creative and at the same time conservative. Holy Tradition cannot be conserved unless it continually matures. This maturation takes place on the shoulder of the past. This is the Orthodox view of tradition taken from the book "Tradition and Orthodoxy" by Abouna Tadros Malaty
So the what About Mission and Evangelism? We are to always preach about Christ based on three things, did Jesus proclaim, did the apostles preach it and and did the fathers preserve it. My Brethren, we are to bring Christ to others through the Orthodoxy that we breath that was proclaimed by Christ, preached by the apostles and preserved by the Fathers. We unfortunately are unable to bring non Copts into our churches in America because we have limited our Rich Orthodox church into a focus on Music. What about the saints and Marytrs? Why arent we discussing how to bring lost youth back to our churches? Why aren't our hearts burning over the people in our familys and churchs and sunday school classes who are coming to our churches week in and week out and not having any spirit of repentance or change? Why arent we lamenting over the pure unblemished Orthodox Faith that we have and have not poured out to our classmates, friends, co workers. Where are the converts in our churches? Why is our church doing so little in the mission world? The answer is because we are too focused on fighting ourselves! Abanoub if you leave your youth meeting class over a few songs, you are dividing the class and causing a disturbance. If you have a problem with it stand, close your eyes and focus on the sin in your heart that is also in mine aswell and Repent! Our churches will conitnue to lose youth to the world if we don't turn our hearts from these discussions to prayers. Lets leave this matter to H.H and the Holy Synod to discuss until then, lets keep working to build our Orthodox churches and not dividing them. When Speaking about Clerics of the Church. “You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination.” Stavro, and anyone else who talks about clergy in this manner. We should not call any Bishop or clergy without their titles. You do not have the right to speak about our blessed Holy Father Pope Shenouda and accuse him of ordaining a Protestant bishop or any other clergy for that mater. What good is coming our of these accusations? Are you building the church by making these claims. You are not in the position of Hierarchy to speak like this. We are to respect our mother church because if we do not submit ourselves to them we are indeed protesting against the church and its teaching. Our Holy Father Pope Shenouda with the Holy Synod are the ones to determine those who are preaching and teaching in an Unorthodox fashion. Not you. Please refrain from posting these comments on a page like this because it makes our Blessed Church look unstable and if you attack the church you attack Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
whoah, 9 pages! some practical points: 1. father peter said 'The clapping in Protestant services is part of a process, witting or unwitting, known or unknown, of creating a mood.' this has also been true in my experience (>20 years) or being protestant. in some cases, people were focusing on God, not on their emotions, and i have met many protestants who deny themselves to serve God and are generally ignorant of orthodoxy (am working on that!). but in many cases, the singing in the service is part of the creation of a 'nice atmosphere' where we thank God for meeting our needs, saving us, giving us what we ask for, doing what we want, etc. etc. can you see that the theology is twisted around so it's just as if we created God for ourselves, not the other way around? you MUST get a trained person to check out the theology in ALL songs used in the church in any part of the church's meetings.
2. there are some really good orthodox songs in english! like 'from all nations', the one where the chorus is 'Christ has granted us salvation' and loads of others, so why not learn all these and use them? there are many even on this website!
3. write some good orthodox songs and present them to the bishop for his opinion as to whether they are theologically sound. i think it is not important whether you use guitar or 'oud or cymbals.
4. we are not trying to invent a religion that attracts the most people. when you do this you then have to worry about whether or not people will stray from the religion when they leave home (eg. for work or study). you have to teach them the right religion that they are willing to die for and take to the ends of the earth. they when you do that, you have to worry about where to find enough priests to send to all the college towns to look after all the new converts from those who have no church background (converted by the witness of all those who live away from home and who are ready to die for their faith).
5. we do not need a revival! this is a protestant concept, used to explain the positive effect of the new belief in a God who saves and does miracles by a dry empty european-origin church that had become badly affected by the notion that everything can be explained by science. it is a dated 20th century concept. a (coptic) bishop explained once that the orthodox church does not need revival because we never stopped believing in the miraculous work of the Spirit of God. we have always believed in miracles and the power of God to change our lives and bring healing to the world. we just need to tell more people about it and be ready to die for it. (i may have mentioned this before).
6. in case you didn't get point no. 6, we have to be ready to die for our faith. this is scary, but exciting. we don't need exciting songs as our whole life can be exciting as we love our enemies, share the good news with those who reject it (and maybe loose our jobs) and see God's care for us as He brings us through difficult circumstances (as in psalm 22(23))
7. to risk repeating myself, when you have something to die for, you have something to live for.
I think it needs repeating that ALL of the converts here, with many years of experience of Protestant worship, seem to be agreed that such songs should not be introduced into our Orthodox Church life at all.
It is not one or two cranky Copts making a fuss. It is people who know this culture very well indeed who are warning of the dangers.
Father Peter, Your posts were valid,trustworthy and honest and I thank you for them. We should pray that our church take a stand on this issue so its clear to every member of our Church community. GeorgeT for example is a young man from my church who is only 13 years old. Some of the statements above might confuse him as he stated. We need to take more caution on matters like this. Stavro undermines the Hierarchy of the church and makes it seem that any laymen who is charismatic and a money making machine should be ordained. When public statements are made about ordained clerics in the church like this it should be left as stated above to the Holy Synod to discuss not on tasbeha.org. This is not the right spirit of the any member of the body of Christ. I wrote a letter to HH Pope Shenouda about this matter and He has not given his stance on the issue.
Ummm....so we should start getting protestant in church because they make money.... ok you've convinced me! Yeah everyone lets go burn our 'service of the deacon' books! The protestants are making money! Yea, lets go clap and sing in the streets!! Oh happy day, we can all buy our tickets to heaven....
Abanoub,
I am totally on your side, and respect you for being a youth who has a sense of what is orthodox and what is not. You reflect a deep orthodox soul that is fed by true worship and not empty rhetoric or academics. I do not think it is merely about a guitar or a piano, which I believe are just instrument, but it is about a certain foreign spirit thal inspires all this garbage.
I just wanted to highlight to you why no actions are taken against the very obvious misconduct in many congregations. You are not the first to notice non-orthodox songs in youth meeting, and the bishops / priests / head servants who allow it are not stupid or ignorant to miss it. Their hands are tied because these protestant teachers are influential figures in the church. I am not sure whether to feel sorry for them or be angry of them.
I am not justifying Protestantism in our church because of money, I am merely saying that those protestant teachers who have infiltrated our church are money machines and that is why they command so much power and are almost untouchable.
It is not only the responsibility of the clergy to protect the faith. The laymen are foremost the guardians of the faith. Infiltration is only possible when the laymen are indiffferent about their faith and have taught their kids nothing about Orthodoxy.
My advise to you:
1) Do not attend the body shaking protestant song sessions in your youth group. It hurts your spirituality and it may infiltrate your thoughts. We are not immune to heresy when we subject ourselves to it. I advise to attend the rest of the YG if the rest is not protestant as well.
2) Grow in the faith by practice, which you seem to be already doing.
3) Pray for your church and ask God to send some orthodox teachers and servants to her.
My local church in the States, when I used to live there, was in a worse state than yours. God has visited us with His salvation and sent a priest who cleaned up the mess.
4) Educate yourself from valid resources and when you are in a position to teach, make sure you proclaim the truth.
5) Get yourself a good spiritual guide. If you are in Maryland, you might have a problem with this. Try a long distance spiritual relation with a trusted orthodox Father.
I have a great idea, as usual, and it will fix all of these problems, and keep us all from bickering.
I propose that we start a new church called: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Coptics. In it, we can include:
1. Western pictures as depictions of the saints and the Lord. 2. Women as deacons and priests 3. Guitar, rap, drums, and lots of microphones (one for each deacon). 4. Flat screens with 360 degrees view 5. No Fasting (also throw out the agbeya) 6. No old people. 7. No collection plate. 8. Kumbaya to be sung in the beginning and end of the surface to give that ethereal mood of "everything is wonderful". 9. Lots of singing especially with a nasal intonation.
This way there will be no bickering or clash of opinion. Any takers as to a founding father for this new church?
As usual, I think it is a brilliant idea. It is well thought out, and with illustrious goals and ideals.
Oh, I forgot, you get bellydancing lessons so you can become one and be the feature entertainer in the wedding receptions.
As far as I am concerned, that would be the ideal church.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, and sorry if i seemed to flip out a little. It's just frustrating being ignored at church, and my servants look at me like I am the bad guy who is trying to stop all the singing and the fun...
ILSM: you always have the perfect solution.... but we'd need to build the Holiest Night Club for this church, and we dont have that kinda money.. so looks like we are back to trying to fix our Coptic church :D
ForhisGlory: you talked about having a precious peral, but we can also take other treasures.... well what happens when you keep taking in those random treasures....ultimately that amazing peral you have will be at the bottom of your treasure chest.... you see how that can be a problem?
10. Let's throw in the marijuana is okay 11. Homosexuality is not a sin, it is an alternative path to God.
Please TITL, I am being serious. I want there to be no controversies on this site anymore. I want us to be all happy in our ways.
Please stop laughing this is serious.
I want to make sure that I have nothing to do with this church in any way shape or form. However, for everyone with the specified affiliations with the above list, please move on if that is what you want.
WAIT--If memory serves me correctly, Max Michel (the Son of Satan) has a church like that already. They even mention Muslims in the diptychs of their worship services.
[quote author=ForHisGlory link=topic=10538.msg128393#msg128393 date=1296078615] Father Peter, Your posts were valid,trustworthy and honest and I thank you for them. We should pray that our church take a stand on this issue so its clear to every member of our Church community. GeorgeT for example is a young man from my church who is only 13 years old. Some of the statements above might confuse him as he stated. We need to take more caution on matters like this. Stavro undermines the Hierarchy of the church and makes it seem that any laymen who is charismatic and a money making machine should be ordained. When public statements are made about ordained clerics in the church like this it should be left as stated above to the Holy Synod to discuss not on tasbeha.org. This is not the right spirit of the any member of the body of Christ. I wrote a letter to HH Pope Shenouda about this matter and He has not given his stance on the issue.
Who are you??? Email me if you dont want to say it on a blog
How about David Copperfield? Magic shows are always fun.
Abanoub, if you want people to start taking this topic seriously then I suggest you change the title of this thread to "Protestantism in Coptic Churches"
musical style cannot, in itself, be ‘Protestant’. Yes, perhaps historically Protestants have tended to use it, but that doesn’t give them ownership over that style, anymore than Protestants doing mathematics gives them ownership over the set of natural numbers. Can you imagine that? “No! We mustn’t count in our Church! We’d become Protestants!”
What About Instruments? H.H Pope Shenouda allows a OHwood(I guess its like and Egyptian guitar) to be used on his Wednesday night meetings in order that the congregations heart may be drawn and focus prior to his lecture. Is our Blessed Pope protestant because he has introduced an instument with songs into the church? God Forbid!
The problem is not in instruments. It also isn't in clapping. I'm all for instruments and even clapping IF it is used in the proper way to worship God. King David the Psalmist played the harp and the Ethiopian Orthodox use drums and have a dance (of sorts): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedm2_XOQ1o. The problem is they aren't correct. These songs rely on emotions. Its the incorrect use of the guitar and of clapping. What ends up happening is that it becomes like a rock concert, and it saddens me very much.
That isn't the problem. There is a way to relate to the youth without borrowing songs written by Protestant authors and that are incorrect in their style and their meanings. What ends up happening is it becomes more about the music and less about prayer. This also begins to have an effect on their reaction to the hymns of the Church. For example, I, personally begin to lose interest when esmou epchoice (sp?) is said during Tasbeha, and then regain my interest when a hymn such as loipon is said. Why? Because I look too much for tune and comes to the point where I'm saying empty words with a beautiful tune. In fact half the time I don't even look to see what the hymn means.
I agree with Fr. Peter and HG Bishop Youssef in that "Protestant" songs can be used if their tune and content are Orthodox. Fr. Peter has given examples of songs such as these (they are usually old) which have no problems with music or words. In my opinion we need to relate to the youth with English songs, but they must be Orthodox in song and content.
This stance must be dealt with in love and compassion. For example I was talking with my sister and she had a book that was Protestant in content that she was given by the servants in Church, which she'd read before going to sleep and would usually leave the Bible. She told me that the servants in Church gave it to her, and so because of this it isn't wrong. I took a look at it and found that it had elements promoting dating. Unfortunately I didn't deal with this correctly and in love, and my reaction probably extended the harm. What happens is that youth who are still young can't differentiate and think that because one Protestant thing is allowed that the rest of it is acceptable. I don't see what advantage Protestant songs have to Orthodox ones. It is sad indeed, and almost brings me to tears. In all honesty at this point prayer seems like the only thing left to do. I'm sure if we pray God will bless any action we take and will allow this to stop.
Maybe we could try putting the hymns of St. Ephraim or St. Severus to Orthodox tunes to be sung in these youth meetings. It would certainly be a better alternative to the songs currently sung. They'd also be beneficial in that if the youth come to memorize them, they'd be memorizing Patristics as well. Any opinions on this.
Stavro undermines the Hierarchy of the church and makes it seem that any laymen who is charismatic and a money making machine should be ordained
He should NOT be ordained. The fact that they got ordained cannot be blamed on me, I suppose. I did not lay my hand on him. :)
When public statements are made about ordained clerics in the church like this it should be left as stated above to the Holy Synod to discuss not on tasbeha.org.
No. If the Holy Synod does not do anything about a clear and present danger, or maybe do not know about such matters, you cannot just wait and see. What is orthodox is clear and what is not is also very clear. We are not talking about where to go for the next retreat, we are talking about the content of the faith.
When Pope Shenouda anathemized Dr. Bebawy, he used my same argument in justifying excommunicating the man with a single stroke without a formal synod decision. He said: " It is clear as the sun. It does not need a synod because he (meaning Bebawy) excommunicated himself already by his teachings and practice." I agree with the Pope and apply the same standard to Boulos of Kenya and others.
This is not the right spirit of the any member of the body of Christ.
It is the right spirit because you need to cut the corrupt members from the body. Do you have an idea about the orthodox struggle against heretics in the history of the Coptic Orthodox Church? Probably not. Unlike you, I have no sympathy with heretics and I am obliged to follow the Church teaching's regarding heretics.
I wrote a letter to HH Pope Shenouda about this matter and He has not given his stance on the issue.
1- Generally speaking, any bishop (for the Pope is a bishop in the end) does not have to give you a stance on every issue in your life, nor does he define the faith. His opinion is respected as long as they are within an orthodox framework. Outside of this orthodox frame, his opinions are personal.
2- A bishop is not all knowing. What happens here in the States in a Youth Group in Maryland or in the street of the Bronx is not necessarily known to the Bishop, in our case the Pope is the bishop. I hope you are not suggesting to observe evil corrupting the Church while we are awaiting a letter sent by an unknown to be admitted to the Pope by his selective secretary.
We should not call any Bishop or clergy without their titles.
Boulos of Kenya is a proper identification of the person in question. If you feel it is more proper to name him Bishop Boulos, do so in your posts. I do not feel that a Protestant should get any more respect than he deserves.
You are not in the position of Hierarchy to speak like this.
So laymen are to shut up when they see evil ?
It is funny that you concluded your post that was full of (I respect the church, but ......) and (I love tradition but.....) with such statement. I do not think you are in a position of hierarchy as well and as such you should also refrain from posting and voicing your opinion.
What good is coming our of these accusations? Are you building the church by making these claims.
Sure. I am building the church while you are corrupting it by showing sympathy to heretics. You need to unload the garbage first while you pour the foundation of a solid building. You need to expose heresy while you are teaching Orthodoxy.
We are to respect our mother church because if we do not submit ourselves to them we are indeed protesting against the church and its teaching.
I agree with you about respecting the Church. Those who teach heresy like Boulos of Kenya and his disciples are not of the Church, for they have amputated themselves from the body, and therefore they deserve no respect.
Our Holy Father Pope Shenouda with the Holy Synod are the ones to determine those who are preaching and teaching in an Unorthodox fashion. Not you.
You just gave yourself the liberty of judging me now. I could as well say:
"Our Holy Father Pope Shenouda and with the Holy Synod are the ones to determine whether I am wrong or not. Not you." But I have more sense than you do.
Please refrain from posting these comments on a page like this because it makes our Blessed Church look unstable and if you attack the church you attack Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Oh wow .... mentioning the obvious about the protestant Boulos of Kenya is an attack on the Church and on the Lord Christ and on the Holy Trinity and on Saint Mary ....
GeorgeT for example is a young man from my church who is only 13 years old. Some of the statements above might confuse him as he stated.
GeorgeT expressed his confusion before I posted the post you refer to. It is hard to believe that GeorgeT read my mind and was confused because of what he read (in my mind). I feel for him though, for he must be confused if you are the example of servants in his church.
Your sympathy with heretical worship empties your post from any credibility, but it is funny nevertheless.
A musical style cannot, in itself, be ‘Protestant’. Yes, perhaps historically Protestants have tended to use it, but that doesn’t give them ownership over that style, anymore than Protestants doing mathematics gives them ownership over the set of natural numbers. Can you imagine that? “No! We mustn’t count in our Church! We’d become Protestants!”
Wrong analogy! Mathematics does not induce body shaking effects nor does it target the senses of the body. Musical style used by Protestant does. It is normal that their songs target the body for no spirit works in the church and they must cover it with sensuality.
It is a different matter with us, Orthodox. I wish you experience some orthodox worship and then you will know what we are talking about.
It is true that we are blessed with a long and rich tradition of worship in the Coptic Church. Not only does our Liturgy trace its roots back directly to Apostolic times, but our hymns go back even further. It is truly awesome to walk into Church in procession on a major feast day singing the very words and tunes that the ancient Egyptians would sing as the Pharoah entered the Temple in procession! It astounds me and humbles me to think of the hymn Epouro cascading down the generations of the past three or four millenia to land on our threshold here in the United States in the 21st century!
I hope you realize that we do not cherish our hymns because it is traditions, or because it is an antic musical display that our ancestors have perserved. You might love our heritage for the wrong reasons and this is why you do not understand the exlusive nature of the faith.
This is a precious pearl to be carefully guarded and preserved, and we have a tremendous responsibility to pass on to our children the good sense to enjoy it and appreciate it, and the immense importance of preserving it. This we do in many ways already, and we are planning more ways to implement in the future, such as DVDs explaining the liturgy and a Children’s Liturgy. But having one precious and ancient pearl does not prevent you from also acquiring some less unique treasures, does it?
Of course it does, specially when these "less unique treasures" are nothing but a bag filled with worms who will bring their dirt with them and hide the precious pearl under their filth.
Anyone who has found the precious pearl and returns back to the garbage is like a pig who goes back to the dirty mud after being washed or a dog who eats what he just puked.
It was not a specific comment that confused me it was the whole going back and forth that confused me wasnt sure what was right or wrong so i decided to do whatever abouna SAID
GeorgeT, there is nothing wrong with the development of an American Orthodoxy as God wills. The issue is ceasing to be Orthodox at all. It is not the being American which is the problem but not being Orthodox.
I am British Orthodox - that does not mean that I will allow Protestant influences into the flock in my care while God gives me strength.
It is quite possible to be Coptic and Protestant. It is being Orthodox we must concentrate on.
the word Coptic only means Egyptian, if you are american and copic orthodox church in america you can call yourself an american orthodox cause you are american and you are orhtodox
I say we have Fr. Peter write this paper and see what the outcome is. If that does not work then I say all of us who are against this "assimilation" go ahead and make some sort of organization for the purity of the Orthodox religion. Strength in unity. If many of us stand up and say this is unorthodox and unacceptable, they WILL listen to us tell them that we will give no quarter. It is time that we stand up for our church and say no, we will not accept this, we will defend the faith of our fathers. We will not stand by while others see fit to destroy our church and taint our youth with heresy and evil. If we want change then we need to make change. Atleast this is my take on it, anyone else with me contact me at [email protected] I have been doing this on my own for years and people are finally starting to see its dangers thank God!
Comments
You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination. Look at the total picture:
Boulos of Kenya is a brilliant business man, able to raise millions of dollars in a day. He is quite connected and social, and charismatic. He is quite popular when it comes to the youth, a darling of aristocratic ladies, eloquent, a media puppy and has excellent political ties.
Many of the servants who are connected to him were recommended to priesthood by him and he has pulled some major strings to get them through the door of priesthood. They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C. and Toronto, and they exhibit the same characterstics as their teacher. Everybody knows the content of their faith, and it is 100% Protestant, but they are also money machines who have the ability to raise millions. They are indispensible. You have to be realistic about it.
[quote author=GeorgeT link=topic=10538.msg128358#msg128358 date=1296071821]
I CURRENTLY AM CONFUSED ON WHAT IS RIGHT SO I WILL JUST GO ON THE SAME SIDE AS FR.pETER
Good idea, I'm with you on just agreeing with whatever Fr. Peter says ;)
Father Peter
You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination. Look at the total picture:
Boulos of Kenya is a brilliant business man, able to raise millions of dollars in a day. He is quite connected and social, and charismatic. He is quite popular when it comes to the youth, a darling of aristocratic ladies, eloquent, a media puppy and has excellent political ties.
Many of the servants who are connected to him were recommended to priesthood by him and he has pulled some major strings to get them through the door of priesthood. They got ordained in very critical places like Washington D.C. and Toronto, and they exhibit the same characterstics as their teacher. Everybody knows the content of their faith, and it is 100% Protestant, but they are also money machines who have the ability to raise millions. They are indispensible. You have to be realistic about it.
Ummm....so we should start getting protestant in church because they make money.... ok you've convinced me! Yeah everyone lets go burn our 'service of the deacon' books! The protestants are making money! Yea, lets go clap and sing in the streets!! Oh happy day, we can all buy our tickets to heaven....
Before beginning I am praying that God will open up my mind and heart and that His Holy Spirit might inspire the words that are typed on this computer as I am terrified whenever I speak about a matter that seems to cause a lot of commotion.
I will address the following point by point.
1) What is the definition of Protestantism
We cannot say that something is defined as protestant unless it falls under certain criteria.
What makes anything ‘Protestant’?
Protestant in its roots is to protest against the certain teaching of the straight path of Orthodoxy. In a small summary and not inclusive of everything
1)Protestants deny the 7 Holy Mysteries (not all some take 3 of the 7) which are a means of
grace and Salvation
2)Apostolic Succession
3)Intersession and Prayers of the saints
4)the Ever Virginity of Our Holy Mother Saint Mary
5)they deny the importance of Works in Salvation
6) Their Doctrine on Atonement and Election are extremely misunderstood taking away from
the Our Lord and Saviors purpose of Salvation
7) Various other theological Matters
We define our denominations according to their theology, as well as their history, culture and demographics and so on. For example, we speak of the “Russian Orthodox Church”, and we know we are speaking of a group of Christians who hold to an Eastern Orthodox theology, who are mostly of Russian descent, although there are many members from other ethnic backgrounds, and who use chants and prayers and hymns in the Russian language and style.
But which of those descriptions is essential for the salvation of the Russian Orthodox individual? Which of them really characterises what it means to be Russian Orthodox? Do you have to be Russian? Do you have to speak Russian? Do you have to use that particular musical style? Certainly, the style helps define the CULTURE, but it does not define the FAITH. Greek, Macedonian and Japanese Orthodox Christians all hold to exactly the same faith, the same theology, yet they express their faith differently, according to their own culture and style of music. Without doubt, a style of music should enhance and complement one’s faith and beliefs, but there is nothing in our faith to say that only one particular style of music is going to do that.
Don’t get me wrong – I am absolutely in love with the rich treasure trove of Coptic Hymnology. I wish everyone could taste it and enter into the beautiful world of the spirit it can open up. I believe strongly that it should be carefully preserved and experienced and passed on intact and inviolate to the next generation. But I also believe that there can be room in our lives for more than one style of music.
A musical style cannot, in itself, be ‘Protestant’. Yes, perhaps historically Protestants have tended to use it, but that doesn’t give them ownership over that style, anymore than Protestants doing mathematics gives them ownership over the set of natural numbers. Can you imagine that? “No! We mustn’t count in our Church! We’d become Protestants!”
What About Instruments? H.H Pope Shenouda allows a OHwood(I guess its like and Egyptian guitar) to be used on his Wednesday night meetings in order that the congregations heart may be drawn and focus prior to his lecture. Is our Blessed Pope protestant because he has introduced an instument with songs into the church? God Forbid!
2) “This is not our tradition.”
It is true that we are blessed with a long and rich tradition of worship in the Coptic Church. Not only does our Liturgy trace its roots back directly to Apostolic times, but our hymns go back even further. It is truly awesome to walk into Church in procession on a major feast day singing the very words and tunes that the ancient Egyptians would sing as the Pharoah entered the Temple in procession! It astounds me and humbles me to think of the hymn Epouro cascading down the generations of the past three or four millenia to land on our threshold here in the United States in the 21st century! This is a precious pearl to be carefully guarded and preserved, and we have a tremendous responsibility to pass on to our children the good sense to enjoy it and appreciate it, and the immense importance of preserving it. This we do in many ways already, and we are planning more ways to implement in the future, such as DVDs explaining the liturgy and a Children’s Liturgy.
But having one precious and ancient pearl does not prevent you from also acquiring some less unique treasures, does it? Why should we not preserve the beautiful and pristine traditions of our Church while at the same time also using the culture of modern America?
This is nothing new. When the Apostles met at Jerusalem to discuss the rules to be imposed upon the Gentile converts to Christianity, they came down very firmly on the side of allowing them to keep their own culture and ways of doing things, so long as they did not transgress the Law of Christ. They would not even impose upon them the practices of the synagogue, although until then, all Christians had been Jews and had simultaneously attneded both synagogue and Christian liturgy. When the Hebrew St Mark the Apostle came to Alexandria, he did not impose Hebrew musical styles on the Egyptians, but allowed them to tailor the style of the liturgy to their own tastes, so long as they built faithfully on the skeleton of dogma he gave them. And three hundred years later, when the unparalleled Champion of Orthodoxy, St Athanasius, sent St Frumentius to establish a Church in Ethiopia, he did not insist at all on the Ethiopians adhering to Egyptian culture. Rather he allowed them to adapt their own familiar culture, once again, and use it to build a tradition on the foundation of the correct faith.
Yes, our tradition must be preserved, because we are the only ones who can preserve it as a living tradition, rather than in the reference books and libraries of the world. I would personally hate to see the raw and honest contact we make with God in the Liturgy where we use only our voices to worship Him replaced by some loud amplified musical instruments drowning out our voices. There is no place for modern music in an ancient rite like this.
But many of our youth understand that loving and preserving Coptic music doesn’t stop you from enjoying modern music. In fact, the kind of person who usually enjoys Coptic music the most is the musical personality type. This gift allows them to see deeper into its structure and logic. But that is also exactly the same person who is most likely to appreciate any style of music!
For decades, we in the Coptic Church have had a sort of split personality when it comes to western music. We sing it in our Youth Meetings and yet we warn our youth against it on the radio and in video clips. To a great extent, this is a very valid attitude, for the motivation and intention of the musical artist and the nature of the lyrics and their message are critical to deciding whether that music is going to help or hinder my walk with Christ. But I think we must guard against throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Music that is being used with the intention of bringing one closer to Christ, and that has enough in it to lend it effectiveness to achieve that goal should not be dismissed, particularly if it may be the best point of contact with some of our youth who are feeling alien in Church. We must cater for the needs of those who should be in Church, not only for those who already are in Church, or else those outside will never want to come in.
3)“Rock music is satanic. Any music with a beat, or worse, with a drum beat, is evil.”
This objection is based, I suppose, on the fairly valid physiological finding that our bodies do enjoy synchronising with an external rhythm. You experience this when you hear a snazzy tune and your foot starts to tap in time with it. Or perhaps when you watch a troop marching and feel like getting up and joining in their apparently perfect regularity. Of course, dancing, modern and ancient, also depend a lot on this rhythm.
But I cannot see that rhythm is in and of itself in any way evil. In fact, music that does not possess rhythm is usually quite unacceptable to our ears. Classical music has rhythm. Middle Eastern Church hymns have rhythm. Liturgical responses have rhythm (often set by the triangle and cymbals). Tasbeha Praises are boiling over with rhythm. One of them, in fact, the First Hoas, uses rhythm to powerfully evoke a sense of marching along with the children of Israel as Moses led them through the Red Sea and out of Egypt. It is a true ‘marching song’. Does this therefore make them evil, because they have the power to draw attention to themselves and engross us, perhaps even hypnotize us with their beat? I don’t know anyone who would say that.
Surely then, it is the lyrics of the song, the intent of the composer and the intent of the singer that makes a song of good or evil effect? There are love songs on the pop charts that become the most beautiful prayers of love for God if you just replace the guy/girl the composer intended with God, and direct the words to Him. Of course there are others that a lost cause however hard you try to ‘baptize’ them.
In our African Coptic Churches every Sunday, there are drums being played along with the traditional cymbals and triangles. That is their culture, and they do not feel that a song is complete if it does not have a drum accompaniment. The worshippers sway from side to side gently as they sing the liturgical responses; try and stop them! It’s part of the expression of their joy in praising God. Like David the Prophet, they are ‘dancing to the Lord’. And why would you want to stop them? It’s quite moving to watch and inspiring to take part in.
Now we are not talking here about introducing a band of various instuments into the liturgy – God forbid! Our beautiful ancient rites are of a totally different nature and serve a totally different purpose. Where there is joy in the liturgy, it is of the more solemn type, suitable for being in the direct physical presence of the Creator of worlds whose real Body and Blood rest upon the altar. But when we are outside the solemnities of the liturgy (or any other traditional Coptic rite for that matter), surely there is a degree of freedom to use whatever musical style speaks most effectively to our hearts? The one does not cancel out the other, but the same person can enjoy both, deeply and fully, in the different situations and environments.
What About Moving Forward?
I definitely love all of your passion for the traditions of our church because it truly is a treasure and people have shed their blood preserving our faith. I do want to make a point on tradition in the orthodox concept. In our Orthodox point of view, Holy Tradition is the life of the Church throughout the history, which is guided and renewed by the Holy Spirit. One of the church fathers says “Tradition is not a book which records a certain moment in the development of the Church and stops itself, but a book that is always written by the Church’s life. Tradition continues always and now not less than formerly, we live in Tradition and create it. Nevertheless, the sacred Tradition of the past exists for us as present living in our lives and consciousness.” Holy Tradition must be creative and at the same time conservative. Holy Tradition cannot be conserved unless it continually matures. This maturation takes place on the shoulder of the past. This is the Orthodox view of tradition taken from the book "Tradition and Orthodoxy" by Abouna Tadros Malaty
So the what About Mission and Evangelism?
We are to always preach about Christ based on three things, did Jesus proclaim, did the apostles preach it and and did the fathers preserve it. My Brethren, we are to bring Christ to others through the Orthodoxy that we breath that was proclaimed by Christ, preached by the apostles and preserved by the Fathers. We unfortunately are unable to bring non Copts into our churches in America because we have limited our Rich Orthodox church into a focus on Music. What about the saints and Marytrs? Why arent we discussing how to bring lost youth back to our churches? Why aren't our hearts burning over the people in our familys and churchs and sunday school classes who are coming to our churches week in and week out and not having any spirit of repentance or change? Why arent we lamenting over the pure unblemished Orthodox Faith that we have and have not poured out to our classmates, friends, co workers. Where are the converts in our churches? Why is our church doing so little in the mission world? The answer is because we are too focused on fighting ourselves! Abanoub if you leave your youth meeting class over a few songs, you are dividing the class and causing a disturbance. If you have a problem with it stand, close your eyes and focus on the sin in your heart that is also in mine aswell and Repent! Our churches will conitnue to lose youth to the world if we don't turn our hearts from these discussions to prayers. Lets leave this matter to H.H and the Holy Synod to discuss until then, lets keep working to build our Orthodox churches and not dividing them.
When Speaking about Clerics of the Church.
“You cannot blame him for he never hid his true colors. Everybody knew that he is a Protestant when he was ordained, including the one who ordained him. But Orthodox Faith is not the only measure for ordination.”
Stavro, and anyone else who talks about clergy in this manner. We should not call any Bishop or clergy without their titles. You do not have the right to speak about our blessed Holy Father Pope Shenouda and accuse him of ordaining a Protestant bishop or any other clergy for that mater. What good is coming our of these accusations? Are you building the church by making these claims. You are not in the position of Hierarchy to speak like this. We are to respect our mother church because if we do not submit ourselves to them we are indeed protesting against the church and its teaching. Our Holy Father Pope Shenouda with the Holy Synod are the ones to determine those who are preaching and teaching in an Unorthodox fashion. Not you. Please refrain from posting these comments on a page like this because it makes our Blessed Church look unstable and if you attack the church you attack Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Please forgive me and pray for my weakness.
some practical points:
1. father peter said 'The clapping in Protestant services is part of a process, witting or unwitting, known or unknown, of creating a mood.'
this has also been true in my experience (>20 years) or being protestant. in some cases, people were focusing on God, not on their emotions, and i have met many protestants who deny themselves to serve God and are generally ignorant of orthodoxy (am working on that!). but in many cases, the singing in the service is part of the creation of a 'nice atmosphere' where we thank God for meeting our needs, saving us, giving us what we ask for, doing what we want, etc. etc. can you see that the theology is twisted around so it's just as if we created God for ourselves, not the other way around? you MUST get a trained person to check out the theology in ALL songs used in the church in any part of the church's meetings.
2. there are some really good orthodox songs in english! like 'from all nations', the one where the chorus is 'Christ has granted us salvation' and loads of others, so why not learn all these and use them? there are many even on this website!
3. write some good orthodox songs and present them to the bishop for his opinion as to whether they are theologically sound. i think it is not important whether you use guitar or 'oud or cymbals.
4. we are not trying to invent a religion that attracts the most people. when you do this you then have to worry about whether or not people will stray from the religion when they leave home (eg. for work or study). you have to teach them the right religion that they are willing to die for and take to the ends of the earth. they when you do that, you have to worry about where to find enough priests to send to all the college towns to look after all the new converts from those who have no church background (converted by the witness of all those who live away from home and who are ready to die for their faith).
5. we do not need a revival! this is a protestant concept, used to explain the positive effect of the new belief in a God who saves and does miracles by a dry empty european-origin church that had become badly affected by the notion that everything can be explained by science. it is a dated 20th century concept.
a (coptic) bishop explained once that the orthodox church does not need revival because we never stopped believing in the miraculous work of the Spirit of God. we have always believed in miracles and the power of God to change our lives and bring healing to the world. we just need to tell more people about it and be ready to die for it. (i may have mentioned this before).
6. in case you didn't get point no. 6, we have to be ready to die for our faith. this is scary, but exciting. we don't need exciting songs as our whole life can be exciting as we love our enemies, share the good news with those who reject it (and maybe loose our jobs) and see God's care for us as He brings us through difficult circumstances (as in psalm 22(23))
7. to risk repeating myself, when you have something to die for, you have something to live for.
It is not one or two cranky Copts making a fuss. It is people who know this culture very well indeed who are warning of the dangers.
Father Peter
Your posts were valid,trustworthy and honest and I thank you for them. We should pray that our church take a stand on this issue so its clear to every member of our Church community. GeorgeT for example is a young man from my church who is only 13 years old. Some of the statements above might confuse him as he stated. We need to take more caution on matters like this. Stavro undermines the Hierarchy of the church and makes it seem that any laymen who is charismatic and a money making machine should be ordained. When public statements are made about ordained clerics in the church like this it should be left as stated above to the Holy Synod to discuss not on tasbeha.org. This is not the right spirit of the any member of the body of Christ. I wrote a letter to HH Pope Shenouda about this matter and He has not given his stance on the issue.
I am totally on your side, and respect you for being a youth who has a sense of what is orthodox and what is not. You reflect a deep orthodox soul that is fed by true worship and not empty rhetoric or academics. I do not think it is merely about a guitar or a piano, which I believe are just instrument, but it is about a certain foreign spirit thal inspires all this garbage.
I just wanted to highlight to you why no actions are taken against the very obvious misconduct in many congregations. You are not the first to notice non-orthodox songs in youth meeting, and the bishops / priests / head servants who allow it are not stupid or ignorant to miss it. Their hands are tied because these protestant teachers are influential figures in the church. I am not sure whether to feel sorry for them or be angry of them.
I am not justifying Protestantism in our church because of money, I am merely saying that those protestant teachers who have infiltrated our church are money machines and that is why they command so much power and are almost untouchable.
It is not only the responsibility of the clergy to protect the faith. The laymen are foremost the guardians of the faith. Infiltration is only possible when the laymen are indiffferent about their faith and have taught their kids nothing about Orthodoxy.
My advise to you:
1) Do not attend the body shaking protestant song sessions in your youth group. It hurts your spirituality and it may infiltrate your thoughts. We are not immune to heresy when we subject ourselves to it. I advise to attend the rest of the YG if the rest is not protestant as well.
2) Grow in the faith by practice, which you seem to be already doing.
3) Pray for your church and ask God to send some orthodox teachers and servants to her.
My local church in the States, when I used to live there, was in a worse state than yours. God has visited us with His salvation and sent a priest who cleaned up the mess.
4) Educate yourself from valid resources and when you are in a position to teach, make sure you proclaim the truth.
5) Get yourself a good spiritual guide. If you are in Maryland, you might have a problem with this. Try a long distance spiritual relation with a trusted orthodox Father.
I propose that we start a new church called: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Coptics. In it, we can include:
1. Western pictures as depictions of the saints and the Lord.
2. Women as deacons and priests
3. Guitar, rap, drums, and lots of microphones (one for each deacon).
4. Flat screens with 360 degrees view
5. No Fasting (also throw out the agbeya)
6. No old people.
7. No collection plate.
8. Kumbaya to be sung in the beginning and end of the surface to give that ethereal mood of "everything is wonderful".
9. Lots of singing especially with a nasal intonation.
This way there will be no bickering or clash of opinion. Any takers as to a founding father for this new church?
As usual, I think it is a brilliant idea. It is well thought out, and with illustrious goals and ideals.
Oh, I forgot, you get bellydancing lessons so you can become one and be the feature entertainer in the wedding receptions.
As far as I am concerned, that would be the ideal church.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, and sorry if i seemed to flip out a little. It's just frustrating being ignored at church, and my servants look at me like I am the bad guy who is trying to stop all the singing and the fun...
ILSM: you always have the perfect solution.... but we'd need to build the Holiest Night Club for this church, and we dont have that kinda money.. so looks like we are back to trying to fix our Coptic church :D
ForhisGlory: you talked about having a precious peral, but we can also take other treasures.... well what happens when you keep taking in those random treasures....ultimately that amazing peral you have will be at the bottom of your treasure chest.... you see how that can be a problem?
10. Let's throw in the marijuana is okay
11. Homosexuality is not a sin, it is an alternative path to God.
Please TITL, I am being serious. I want there to be no controversies on this site anymore. I want us to be all happy in our ways.
Please stop laughing this is serious.
I want to make sure that I have nothing to do with this church in any way shape or form. However, for everyone with the specified affiliations with the above list, please move on if that is what you want.
WAIT--If memory serves me correctly, Max Michel (the Son of Satan) has a church like that already. They even mention Muslims in the diptychs of their worship services.
Father Peter,
Your posts were valid,trustworthy and honest and I thank you for them. We should pray that our church take a stand on this issue so its clear to every member of our Church community. GeorgeT for example is a young man from my church who is only 13 years old. Some of the statements above might confuse him as he stated. We need to take more caution on matters like this. Stavro undermines the Hierarchy of the church and makes it seem that any laymen who is charismatic and a money making machine should be ordained. When public statements are made about ordained clerics in the church like this it should be left as stated above to the Holy Synod to discuss not on tasbeha.org. This is not the right spirit of the any member of the body of Christ. I wrote a letter to HH Pope Shenouda about this matter and He has not given his stance on the issue.
Who are you??? Email me if you dont want to say it on a blog
You forgot one though:
12. Inviting guest speakers from different denominations to give the sermon. We could invite Oprah.
Abanoub, if you want people to start taking this topic seriously then I suggest you change the title of this thread to "Protestantism in Coptic Churches"
That isn't the problem. There is a way to relate to the youth without borrowing songs written by Protestant authors and that are incorrect in their style and their meanings. What ends up happening is it becomes more about the music and less about prayer. This also begins to have an effect on their reaction to the hymns of the Church. For example, I, personally begin to lose interest when esmou epchoice (sp?) is said during Tasbeha, and then regain my interest when a hymn such as loipon is said. Why? Because I look too much for tune and comes to the point where I'm saying empty words with a beautiful tune. In fact half the time I don't even look to see what the hymn means.
I agree with Fr. Peter and HG Bishop Youssef in that "Protestant" songs can be used if their tune and content are Orthodox. Fr. Peter has given examples of songs such as these (they are usually old) which have no problems with music or words. In my opinion we need to relate to the youth with English songs, but they must be Orthodox in song and content.
This stance must be dealt with in love and compassion. For example I was talking with my sister and she had a book that was Protestant in content that she was given by the servants in Church, which she'd read before going to sleep and would usually leave the Bible. She told me that the servants in Church gave it to her, and so because of this it isn't wrong. I took a look at it and found that it had elements promoting dating. Unfortunately I didn't deal with this correctly and in love, and my reaction probably extended the harm. What happens is that youth who are still young can't differentiate and think that because one Protestant thing is allowed that the rest of it is acceptable. I don't see what advantage Protestant songs have to Orthodox ones. It is sad indeed, and almost brings me to tears. In all honesty at this point prayer seems like the only thing left to do. I'm sure if we pray God will bless any action we take and will allow this to stop.
Maybe we could try putting the hymns of St. Ephraim or St. Severus to Orthodox tunes to be sung in these youth meetings. It would certainly be a better alternative to the songs currently sung. They'd also be beneficial in that if the youth come to memorize them, they'd be memorizing Patristics as well. Any opinions on this.
Please pray for me.
THE BIGGEST FEAR IS A SLOW TRANSITION FROM COPTIC ORTHODOX TO AMERICAN ORTHODOX
anyone who knows them knows what i am talking about
When Pope Shenouda anathemized Dr. Bebawy, he used my same argument in justifying excommunicating the man with a single stroke without a formal synod decision. He said: " It is clear as the sun. It does not need a synod because he (meaning Bebawy) excommunicated himself already by his teachings and practice." I agree with the Pope and apply the same standard to Boulos of Kenya and others. It is the right spirit because you need to cut the corrupt members from the body. Do you have an idea about the orthodox struggle against heretics in the history of the Coptic Orthodox Church? Probably not. Unlike you, I have no sympathy with heretics and I am obliged to follow the Church teaching's regarding heretics. 1- Generally speaking, any bishop (for the Pope is a bishop in the end) does not have to give you a stance on every issue in your life, nor does he define the faith. His opinion is respected as long as they are within an orthodox framework. Outside of this orthodox frame, his opinions are personal.
2- A bishop is not all knowing. What happens here in the States in a Youth Group in Maryland or in the street of the Bronx is not necessarily known to the Bishop, in our case the Pope is the bishop. I hope you are not suggesting to observe evil corrupting the Church while we are awaiting a letter sent by an unknown to be admitted to the Pope by his selective secretary. Boulos of Kenya is a proper identification of the person in question. If you feel it is more proper to name him Bishop Boulos, do so in your posts. I do not feel that a Protestant should get any more respect than he deserves. So laymen are to shut up when they see evil ?
It is funny that you concluded your post that was full of (I respect the church, but ......) and (I love tradition but.....) with such statement. I do not think you are in a position of hierarchy as well and as such you should also refrain from posting and voicing your opinion. Sure. I am building the church while you are corrupting it by showing sympathy to heretics. You need to unload the garbage first while you pour the foundation of a solid building. You need to expose heresy while you are teaching Orthodoxy. I agree with you about respecting the Church. Those who teach heresy like Boulos of Kenya and his disciples are not of the Church, for they have amputated themselves from the body, and therefore they deserve no respect. You just gave yourself the liberty of judging me now. I could as well say:
"Our Holy Father Pope Shenouda and with the Holy Synod are the ones to determine whether I am wrong or not. Not you." But I have more sense than you do. Oh wow .... mentioning the obvious about the protestant Boulos of Kenya is an attack on the Church and on the Lord Christ and on the Holy Trinity and on Saint Mary .... GeorgeT expressed his confusion before I posted the post you refer to. It is hard to believe that GeorgeT read my mind and was confused because of what he read (in my mind). I feel for him though, for he must be confused if you are the example of servants in his church.
Your sympathy with heretical worship empties your post from any credibility, but it is funny nevertheless. Wrong analogy! Mathematics does not induce body shaking effects nor does it target the senses of the body. Musical style used by Protestant does. It is normal that their songs target the body for no spirit works in the church and they must cover it with sensuality.
It is a different matter with us, Orthodox. I wish you experience some orthodox worship and then you will know what we are talking about. I hope you realize that we do not cherish our hymns because it is traditions, or because it is an antic musical display that our ancestors have perserved. You might love our heritage for the wrong reasons and this is why you do not understand the exlusive nature of the faith. Of course it does, specially when these "less unique treasures" are nothing but a bag filled with worms who will bring their dirt with them and hide the precious pearl under their filth.
Anyone who has found the precious pearl and returns back to the garbage is like a pig who goes back to the dirty mud after being washed or a dog who eats what he just puked.
I am British Orthodox - that does not mean that I will allow Protestant influences into the flock in my care while God gives me strength.
It is quite possible to be Coptic and Protestant. It is being Orthodox we must concentrate on.
Father Peter
Father Peter
The Ecumenical Patriarch does not recognize their existence.
{I am being joking and sarcastic.}