I think you misunderstood what was meant by HG Anba Boules being charismatic. I think Charismatic was meant as: possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; "a charismatic leader"; "a magnetic personality", and not as the way you understood it.
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=10538.msg128547#msg128547 date=1296148886] Zoxasi,
I think you misunderstood what was meant by HG Anba Boules being charismatic. I think Charismatic was meant as: possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; "a charismatic leader"; "a magnetic personality", and not as the way you understood it.
Habibi,
My understanding of Charismatic IS a magnetic personality. Someone with a very strong ability to attract people to him - YES.. however,
l also meant it in the following sense:
He asked the youth to go into the Tube Station, in groups and sing hymns. To preach to people.
lol.. they did it as well.
That to me is Charismatic behaviour.
I am fully aware that there is a definition of charismatic spirituality such as "praying in tongues" (i.e. speaking nonsense), "slain in spirit" (hypnosis) etc; but if someone who came from this background of "charismatic spirituality" that is common in most protestant churches, and decides to be Orthodox and then meets someone like Bishop Boulos, that's going to add fuel to the already charismatic fire.
Our church is not about showing off gifts given to us by God. In fact, we pray even not to have them. Yet protestants tend to think u are not even saved unless u start clapping and crying with joy and speaking in "tongues".
Bishop Boulous IS Orthodox. OK! (I said this already!) However, I think his personality will add fuel to an already Orthodox person who has charismatic (protestant, spirituality , or charismatic spirituality) spirituality already embedded in his nature.
The youth go to Africa and see our Church in a light that they've NEVER seen before: an Arabic speaking, Coptic Orthodox bishop holding a liturgy with men and women dancing and clapping (DURING A MASS!).
I REALLY disagree with this by the way. We should have taught them our spirituality, not diluted our Orthodox spirituality with African culture.
We are SO similar to the Russians on this, and the Greeks! They would NEVER have allowed such cultural traditions in the Church. REALLY. I know may find that hard to believe, but they wouldn't. I have spoken to many Greek Orthodox priests. Their spirituality is really something brilliant.
Yes, they have a few problems with their youth who see the Church at times as a greek cultural centre, but so? The Orthodox Way transcends culture. Its for everyone.. EVEN AFRICANS!!!!!
I thought for a second that you were talking about charismatic as in the charismatic movement.
I REALLY disagree with this by the way. We should have taught them our spirituality, not diluted our Orthodox spirituality with African culture.
I'm not sure it dilutes our Orthodox spirituality, it has already been said that the Ethiopian Orthodox also have dancing (of sorts). May I ask how it dilutes our Orthodox Spirituality? (This is a sincere question, please don't take it as if I'm trying to start an argument).
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128548#msg128548 date=1296149440] The youth go to Africa and see our Church in a light that they've NEVER seen before: an Arabic speaking, Coptic Orthodox bishop holding a liturgy with men and women dancing and clapping (DURING A MASS!).
I REALLY disagree with this by the way. We should have taught them our spirituality, not diluted our Orthodox spirituality with African culture.
We are SO similar to the Russians on this, and the Greeks! They would NEVER have allowed such cultural traditions in the Church. REALLY. I know may find that hard to believe, but they wouldn't. I have spoken to many Greek Orthodox priests. Their spirituality is really something brilliant.
Yes, they have a few problems with their youth who see the Church at times as a greek cultural centre, but so? The Orthodox Way transcends culture. Its for everyone.. EVEN AFRICANS!!!!!
While I have agreed with just about everything you've said on this topic, I have to ask a few questions. Did we introduce the clapping in the church or was that their culture to begin with? I ask this because, as I'm sure you know, the EOTC (Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church), incorporates ritual clapping and drumming into their services, and until a few decades ago, they were not even separate from us, yet retained that aspect of worship in their rites. If it was part of their culture to begin with, why should we have a problem against it and try to force them to follow our rites? I feel as if we don't understand the full situation there which is causing a great problem here, for many of the youth are being exposed to aspects of these different cultures which they then think is acceptable to introduce to ours.
I can honestly say that through going to different Churches,I learnt a lot - about my own. I understood what was Orthodox and what was cultural when I went to the Orthodox Churches outside the CoC.
If you have lived all your life in the Coptic Church, you could be forgiven in thinking that we have an islamized orthodox Church, with priests who grow their beards, and no clapping or dancing in Churches. Why don't priests shave and move with the times?
LOL
That's dumb. That's sheer ignorance.
I used to think this way actually, and I regret it. I didnt see the message behind it. I just assumed I knew everything, when in fact, I knew nothing.
So, first of all, everything that we do in our Church IS Orthodox - the insisting on NOT clapping nor musical instruments in the mass IS VERY Orthodox. The chanting is Orthodox. The way and fashion of prayer is Orthodox. If you have a problem seeing this as orthodox, or as an Islamized Orthodox, just go to ANY Greek, Russian, Armenian, Romanian or Ukranian Orthodox Church and you'll see the EXACT same behaviour.
Then this taught me one other thing: If we are Orthodox in our spirituality as they are, then they must in fact like us , or at least respect us. Despite a few monks from the mount athos (who think Christ Himself was Greek), the Greeks do respect us tremendously, as do the other Churches.
They don't have this respect for the catholics. The catholics have tried everything and anything to bring the masses to the Churches. They've made the Church a "fun" place.
The Orthodox Church seems to be going in this route. They want to make it "fun" to help the young come to the Church. This is not the way. The idea isn't for someone to love your denomination. Its for them to come to Christ. Its for them to live in the fullness of the Christian faith.
So, our praying style IS also part of who we are. I agree the Ethiopian Orthodox Church have a different style to us but in ONE aspect. They emulate some parts of their hymns with their body movements. But are they Charismatic? No! Do they speak in tongues and promote it? No! Do they make people fall over thinking its the Holy Spirit? No! Do they play guitars during their mass ? No!
In my opinion, the closer one can get to living the life of early Church, the better. Even for the Ethiopians. In fact, the more we can revive what was our Coptic Orthodox Tradition and live it, the better we'll be.
I think the hymns where they clap and dance in the Ethiopian Church are few and are for certain occassions. Its not going to be like that in passion week.
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=10538.msg128550#msg128550 date=1296150755] I'm not sure it dilutes our Orthodox spirituality, it has already been said that the Ethiopian Orthodox also have dancing (of sorts). May I ask how it dilutes our Orthodox Spirituality? (This is a sincere question, please don't take it as if I'm trying to start an argument).
Yes, I disagree with the way the Coptic Orthodox Church is in certain parts of Africa, namely Kenya. I really do.
If I go to a country to teach English (as a foreign language), I may find the people (or students there) have a problem with the same accent I have. They may pronounce it differently. They may find it SO hard to pronounce.
But if I'm an English teacher, I will teach English.
I will not tell my students "Look, you know what.. if you can't pronounce this word (whatever word), don't bother, just use the words you are familiar with in your own dialect - and we'll all use that instead".
Well, that's awfully tolerant of me, but I haven't done my job. My job was to educate. It wasn't to go and dilute English nor reduce it to another language.
If I did this with EVERY WORD that I spoke to with my students, then I'd end up speaking swahili, not English with them, or a very diluted form of English. Depending on how bad a teacher I was. Some teachers try to be "cool" and be hip with their students. That's nice. But the best teachers are the ones who educate.
The same with the Church in Africa. We should have taught ORTHODOX SPIRITUALITY.
Its IN this spirituality, this spiritual culture given to us by our Orthodox Fathers, by the desert fathers, and those before them, that there are many gains. We don't just throw these jewels away.
So, this is wrong, and I can confirm to you, to make u feel better, that even Anba Boulos, has upset a lot of people with this.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10538.msg128557#msg128557 date=1296153115] [quote author=DavidI link=topic=10538.msg128551#msg128551 date=1296150777] While I have agreed with just about everything you've said on this topic, I have to ask a few questions. Did we introduce the clapping in the church or was that their culture to begin with? I ask this because, as I'm sure you know, the EOTC (Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church), incorporates ritual clapping and drumming into their services, and until a few decades ago, they were not even separate from us, yet retained that aspect of worship in their rites. If it was part of their culture to begin with, why should we have a problem against it and try to force them to follow our rites? I feel as if we don't understand the full situation there which is causing a great problem here, for many of the youth are being exposed to aspects of these different cultures which they then think is acceptable to introduce to ours.
It's part of their culture.
Such culture belongs outside of the Church environment. Sorry.
Somethings are OK.. somethings are not.
There's no 2 ways about it.
The "way" we pray is part of our Orthodox identity. Its not a novel idea, or an idea that hasn't evolved over time... no!
i. There are aspects of culture which can be used in the service of the Orthodox Tradition.
ii. There are aspects of culture which the Christian must entirely reject.
iii. There are aspects of culture which are either neutral and though not matters which should be forbidden the Christian nevertheless are not suitable to be introduced into the Church.
What would a properly Orthodox church look like in Kenya or other places with a similar culture, then? It is right to point to the Ethiopians and Eritreans as examples of perfectly Orthodox, thoroughly African cultures, but it is also important to remember that the Habesh have been Orthodox Christians for a long time -- Axum was the second oldest Christian kingdom in the world (just behind the Armenians, but don't tell the Ethiopians that!). This was in the 300s, roughly 1200-1300 years before there was any such thing as Protestantism, 700-800 years before Rome went off the rails...even before Chalcedon split the Church. So it doesn't seem really fair to point to Ethiopia and say "they have dancing and clapping, so the Kenyans should be allowed to have dancing and clapping". The Ethiopians have Orthodoxy first and foremost -- is this true of Kenyan Orthodoxy? I really don't know. Has anyone here been there and can comment from first-hand knowledge?
In my personal life, I am a record collecting nerd and have a particular affinity for liturgical recordings, and have many from Africa. They're mostly Roman Catholic, and even in that case there is a clear and heartbreaking division: Some of them are very wild and virtually indistinguishable from tribal/non-religious recordings (one of them even has gunshots, apparently fired in joy during the liturgy! :o :'(), but some of them are very, very austere and beautiful and much more respectful and serious than the majority of masses I personally went to when I was Catholic. The first is clearly wrong ("cultural" or not); the second is befitting of God, and no less African or "cultural" because of it.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128560#msg128560 date=1296155016] I agree with Zoxasi on this.
i. There are aspects of culture which can be used in the service of the Orthodox Tradition.
ii. There are aspects of culture which the Christian must entirely reject.
iii. There are aspects of culture which are either neutral and though not matters which should be forbidden the Christian nevertheless are not suitable to be introduced into the Church.
Father Peter
Look everyone,
You know me as being someone argumentative and insisting on my own point of view? Right? I had the opinion that the Church was Islamzied etc.. and I DID NOT understand that what we had was exactly the same as the other Orthodox Churches. I didnt realize this. Our style of prayer is something that is part of our identity. Its not something that we should change to move with the times.
I was ignorant and I didnt realize.
But, I'm not a Bishop, NOR a Church servant.
It wasn't fr. Peter that corrected me... NO.. i wasn't that smart to have listened. It was truly from the fact that I realized that we do things for a reason, and I noticed that the Greek Orthodox Church happen to follow the same spiritual traditions as us.. (if not even a bit more solemn), and so do the Romanians and the Russians.
And then I found that people actually came to these Orthodox Churches to escape the happy-clappy charismatic cultural environment that was in other Churches (SUCH AS THE CATHOLIC!)
I do stand corrected. We have something precious in our hands. Its our identity. Our spirituality. Its who we are.
We do not play guitars in Church, NOT because we are not used to it, and we only have cymbals, but there is more to it. The Church is not dumb.
Thank GOD I'm not a Bishop or a priest.. but if I was, I'd have had the humility to think and ask others wiser than me before going off and deciding on doing something like this to please the "youth". This is totally unacceptable.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10538.msg128562#msg128562 date=1296156598] What would a properly Orthodox church look like in Kenya or other places with a similar culture, then?
This is precisely what I'm telling you. THE WAY WE PRAY IN OUR CHURCH, our spirituality, how we pray.. has nothing to do with our Egyptian Culture. The Greeks are the same as us and they are NOT egyptian. The same as the Russians and the Ethiopians.
Culture should not even come into this... leave the cultural stuff for what u do when someone gets married, or its your Birthday.. but the house of God should be entered into with the full conscience that nothing has been taken away or added to it from what has been influenced and directed by the Holy Spirit since the first Church.
It is right to point to the Ethiopians and Eritreans as examples of perfectly Orthodox, thoroughly African cultures, but it is also important to remember that the Habesh have been Orthodox Christians for a long time -- Axum was the second oldest Christian kingdom in the world (just behind the Armenians, but don't tell the Ethiopians that!). This was in the 300s, roughly 1200-1300 years before there was any such thing as Protestantism, 700-800 years before Rome went off the rails...even before Chalcedon split the Church. So it doesn't seem really fair to point to Ethiopia and say "they have dancing and clapping, so the Kenyans should be allowed to have dancing and clapping". The Ethiopians have Orthodoxy first and foremost -- is this true of Kenyan Orthodoxy? I really don't know. Has anyone here been there and can comment from first-hand knowledge?
My friend, Orthodoxy is NOT about culture. This was my mistake. It really was. I thought that our Islamic culture had influenced our Church. I was gravely mistaken. This is total nonsense. Our style of worship is very important to our orthodox life. Its not a novel idea that we just came up with.
Like my example about the English teacher... the Ethiopian Church at least speak the Orthodox language, yet they have a small accent. that's fine.. the closer they can become to fully pronouncing everything fluently, the better they will be in Orthodoxy.
I think you've convinced me, I understand your position. However, I don't think that I understand the situation completely, so I prefer not to talk about what I don't know.
If anyone here is NOT yet convinced, let me quote the Pope.
The Church council was looking at ex-communicating a Coptic Priest who became popular by spreading Charismatic spirituality IN the Orthodox Church.
The Pope was seated down, and had all the Bishops around him. (I'll get the video of this meeting on YouTube.. i'm CERTAIN its there!).
They played a video of this monk preaching.
In the video, the monk was walking around the stage, talking and praying.
This is EXACTLY what the Pope said :"Look at his behaviour when he prays.. THIS IS NOT ORTHODOX" ... and then he continued ..."... we CANNOT have this in our Church. Its unacceptable".
The pope is not old fashioned, or ignorant! Nor is he stubborn like me, nor insists on his ideas even when he's wrong.. NO!
This is someone holding onto the WAY WE PRAY. OUR IDENTITY!!!
OUR ORTHODOX IDENTITY IS AT STAKE!!!!!!!!!!
People really need to understand what they're throwing away BEFORE they go and brush it off or replace it with something else.
What we have received , the way we pray, NOT JUST OUR CREED, but our MANNERISM in prayer, IS ORTHODOXY ALSO. This is very precious, and irreplaceable
I think we might be making the same point, but you are making it clearer because you are Orthodox and I am not. My point in bringing up the Kenyans and contrasting them with the Ethiopians was to say, as I did, that the difference is not really a matter of culture (though they do have different cultures), but that the Ethiopians are Orthodox first and foremost, regardless of their similar cultural expressions.
If I was ignorant, and I stand corrected about this issue.. what about others?
I have some humility left in me to even admit I had an erroneous understanding of Orthodoxy. But - there are a lot of people out there that have yet to learn what they are destroying.
How can we explain to them the way of prayer, or the Art of Orthodox prayer?
How do we explain this to them?
You see, I'm not a Church a servant. I don't have nor want a Sunday School. I'm not even a deacon..
But those that ARE serving, in some Churches, have a LOT to answer for. They are so adament about their opinions. They do have an agenda to change the church.
Its an ignorant driven agenda!!
I was just ignorant. I didnt have any agenda. Otherwise I wouldnt be saying any of this.
What I'm trying to say is, my opinion didnt influence anyone. But theirs does. I'm not in a position to influence anyone. But they are.
I agree with dzheremi's point, and with what Zoxasi is saying.
We are surrounded by a British culture, much of which is beautiful and edifying. There are a great many types of music, for instance. I am listening to some now while I am working. But the Church only chooses some music to be the bearer of the worship of the Church.
We are surrounded by ways of talking, but the Church chooses only some forms of discourse to be the bearer of the Gospel.
In our own British culture the Church is selective in what is appropriate. It is not diminisning of African cultures to also choose only some aspects as being proper to the life of the Church.
(As for Ethiopian worship, I would not call their liturgical movement dance or clapping except in the very loosest sense. It has nothing at all to do with the dancing and clapping in charismatic services). It is a very careful set of movements to assist in the singing as much as the use of an other rhythmic assistance.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128570#msg128570 date=1296159572] I think we have a problem still Fr. Peter.
Would you agree that playing the guitar in a prayer meeting is wrong? Its not Orthodox.
Singing hymns that the Church didnt select herself and is used in the protestant Church - is this right or wrong?
Integrating some things are acceptable and some things are not. The Coptic Church has the richest hymnology of any church in the world, of course I am biased, but there is no need to integrate any instrument. The purpose for coptic instruments is for timing. Guitars are to make things sound good and in protestant churches are used to help create a certain atmosphere, coupled with rythmic dancing creates madness. Videos of this madness I have posted on Orthodox Purity on FB. Things that have no bearing on the faith itself, like integrating the surrounding cultures language, are acceptable. ANY aspect of protestantism is unacceptable. Just as nestorianism would be and arianism would be.
I hate the introduction of the guitar to prayer meetings, and to an extent, the introduction of the keyboard to accompany songs sung during festivities, and I have been quite vocal about it in my church. One of the main issues I run into, which I think was discussed earlier, is that there are not that many well known Orthodox songs out there which the congregations can adopt. While I'm sure many of us have links to hymns which our Fathers of every Orthodox jurisdiction have published, I will be quite frank and say, there is no big red collection book of Orthodox songs like the DC church has published. Of course we have the tasbeha, which I absolutely love and wish everyone could sing, but it takes a while for someone to learn a hymn like Tenen, and even then, people will ask for hymns in their own tongue. Perhaps we can all join together on here and make a collection of approved Orthodox hymns & songs which can be easily made available online to every church?
I have NEVER discussed this issue with user STAVRO - EVER. I've never discussed with him Bishop Boulous. NEVER. I don't think this user even knows me.
You are right. I am sorry if quoting from your post made it look arranged. When glancing through the topic, I picked up the reference to my old time friend Boulos of Kenya and could not stop from writing a post or two in the honor of the man, if he has any left. A bit of self control on my part was necessary to avoid sidetracking the topic.
I apologize.
I will not waste your time and the time of others by insisting that Boulos of Kenya is a heretic. Just keep an eye on this man when you visit him or when your church receives him on one of his social visits. He is dangerous specially when left alone with teenagers.
Although that red book has many good Coptic songs, it also contains MANY protestant songs and for that reason alone there should be a book burning. It is difficult communicating this to cradle Orthodox as many of them, especially adults, dont see any harm in what is happening.
I have NEVER discussed this issue with user STAVRO - EVER. I've never discussed with him Bishop Boulous. NEVER. I don't think this user even knows me.
You are right. I am sorry if quoting from your post made it look arranged. When glancing through the topic, I picked up the reference to my old time friend Boulos of Kenya and could not stop from writing a post or two in the honor of the man, if he has any left. A bit of self control on my part was necessary to avoid sidetracking the topic.
I apologize.
I will not waste your time and the time of others by insisting that Boulos of Kenya is a heretic. Just keep an eye on this man when you visit him or when your church receives him on one of his social visits. He is dangerous specially when left alone with teenagers.
No.. Don't worry. Why are you apologising for?
I was just making a point that we didnt know each other and we've never really talked about this issue, yet we ended up with the same opinion.
As for him being heretical.. I doubt that.
This may seem like a triffle issue to some people, but the way we pray, our mannerisms, is not something cultural.. that changes according to the country our Church is in. This is MY ONLY PROBLEM with Anba Boulos.
We have a lot of ex-protestants in our Church, who, after meeting him, are still talking in tongues. I'm not saying that he has told them they should continue with that.. I don't know. But his personality isn't going to put them off it. He doesn't promote Orthodox Spirituality. NO. He promotes Christianity.
That's OK... its not a crime.. but as I said, why even bother being Orthodox for?
I think it is necessary that Orthodox songs be made available in English.
What is required are simple unaccompanied tunes that are not emotional. I would like the Psalms to be set to such simple tunes for instance, and the hymns of all our Fathers could be made into songs. This does not require that they be literal and wooden translations, since what is being used is a text, but they should maintain the sense and substance.
In fact in the West there are Christian traditions which have done this with the Psalms. Some strict Presbyterian groups in Scotland did not want to introduce man-made songs and so sing only the Psalter in what was intended to be a strict translation.
Here for instance is Psalm 1 from a Metrical Psalter. It seems to me to be entirely possible to sing the Psalms in such a way. The translations are English and there are even simple un-accompanied tunes which have been used for hundreds of years.
1 That man hath perfect blessedness, who walketh not astray In counsel of ungodly men, nor stands in sinners' way,
2 Nor sitteth in the scorner's chair: But placeth his delight Upon God's law, and meditates on his law day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree that grows near planted by a river, Which in his season yields his fruit, and his leaf fadeth never:
4 And all he doth shall prosper well The wicked are not so; But like they are unto the chaff, which wind drives to and fro.
5 In judgment therefore shall not stand such as ungodly are; Nor in th' assembly of the just shall wicked men appear.
6 For why? the way of godly men unto the Lord is known: Whereas the way of wicked men shall quite be overthrown.
These Psalms are Orthodox. They are already set for singing. Why not sing them. Similar things could be done with many other sources, including the works of the great Syrian hymn writers. What is required is a true gift for poetry.
I think the psalmody would be a great replacement.... I mean if you don't want to learn it in coptic it is translated into english and arabic! there is no excuse for "jesus is my frand"
Here is another entirely Orthodox hymn, translated into an Eglish hymn by the great translator of Orthodox hymns, John Mason Neale. It is again already prepared for singing. There are a variety of tunes, or another simple one could be written..
This hymn dates from the 4th century in the West. There is no excuse for picking modern Protestant songs that in no way compare to the great treasures already available in English.
Of the Father's love begotten, ere the worlds began to be, he is Alpha and Omega, he the source, the ending he, of the things that are, that have been, and that future years shall see, evermore and evermore!
At his word the words were framèd; he commanded; it was done: heaven and earth and depths of ocean in their threefold order one; all that grows beneath the shining of the moon and burning sun, evermore and evermore!
O that birth for ever blessèd, when the Virgin, full of grace, by the Holy Ghost conceiving, bare the Savior of our race; and the Babe, the world's Redeemer, first revealed his sacred face, evermore and evermore!
This is he whom seers in old time chanted of with one accord; whom the voices of the prophets promised in their faithful word; now he shines, the long expected, let creation praise its Lord, evermore and evermore!
O ye heights of heaven, adore him; angel-hosts, his praises sing; powers, dominions, bow before him, and extol our God and King; let no tongue on earth be silent, every voice in concert ring, evermore and evermore!
Thee let old men, thee let young men, thee let boys in chorus sing; matrons, virgins, little maidens, with glad voices answering: let their guileless songs re-echo, and the heart its music bring, evermore and evermore!
Christ, to thee with God the Father, and, O Holy Ghost, to thee, hymn and chant and high thanksgiving, and unwearied praises be; honor, glory and dominion, and eternal victory, evermore and evermore!
I think the psalmody would be a great replacement.... I mean if you don't want to learn it in coptic it is translated into english and arabic! there is no excuse for "jesus is my frand"
I want to learn it in Coptic! Why shouldn't Copts want to learn it in Coptic? ??? I don't understand this attitude at all...does it make the more "American" (or whatever) to deny their heritage? How sad. Your forefathers died for that heritage. They had their tongues cut out for that heritage.
We all have some culture or background. I have some Hispanic background (but don't identify myself that way, cos I'm so white and speak very "pocho"). I would love to learn the Coptic liturgy in Spanish, and I have heard appropriate hymns in Spanish and inappropriate hymns in Spanish. Again, I think there is a weird attitude towards the place of culture in spreading Orthodoxy (agreeing with Zoxsasi, and Fr. Peter, and Ioannes, and everybody!). I have seen evidence that it is not only possible to be Hispanic and Orthodox, but it's already happening! But I have also seen evidence that when some people are afraid of offending the locals by taking away their guitars (which aren't native to anywhere but Spain anyway), some weird stuff can happen...
It is entirely up to the individual which side they will stand on. If I pray the "Misa" one day in Spanish, it won't be with a mariachi band in the background, I can tell you that much!
I would be interested to know what proportion of congregations in the dioceses in the US, Canada, UK, Europe and Australia use guitars and sing modern Protestant songs?
Is anyone able to produce some data for various locations?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128594#msg128594 date=1296166088] I would be interested to know what proportion of congregations in the dioceses in the US, Canada, UK, Europe and Australia use guitars and sing modern Protestant songs?
Is anyone able to produce some data for various locations?
Father Peter
This is an amazingly good idea. I would be interested to know just how many churches have integrated aspects of protestantism into their church, especially the youth meetings.
Also, do you think a better name for Orthodox Purity would be "Sola Orthodoxia"?
Comments
I think you misunderstood what was meant by HG Anba Boules being charismatic. I think Charismatic was meant as: possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; "a charismatic leader"; "a magnetic personality", and not as the way you understood it.
Zoxasi,
I think you misunderstood what was meant by HG Anba Boules being charismatic. I think Charismatic was meant as: possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; "a charismatic leader"; "a magnetic personality", and not as the way you understood it.
Habibi,
My understanding of Charismatic IS a magnetic personality. Someone with a very strong ability to attract people to him - YES.. however,
l also meant it in the following sense:
He asked the youth to go into the Tube Station, in groups and sing hymns. To preach to people.
lol.. they did it as well.
That to me is Charismatic behaviour.
I am fully aware that there is a definition of charismatic spirituality such as "praying in tongues" (i.e. speaking nonsense), "slain in spirit" (hypnosis) etc; but if someone who came from this background of "charismatic spirituality" that is common in most protestant churches, and decides to be Orthodox and then meets someone like Bishop Boulos, that's going to add fuel to the already charismatic fire.
Our church is not about showing off gifts given to us by God. In fact, we pray even not to have them. Yet protestants tend to think u are not even saved unless u start clapping and crying with joy and speaking in "tongues".
Bishop Boulous IS Orthodox. OK! (I said this already!) However, I think his personality will add fuel to an already Orthodox person who has charismatic (protestant, spirituality , or charismatic spirituality) spirituality already embedded in his nature.
The youth go to Africa and see our Church in a light that they've NEVER seen before: an Arabic speaking, Coptic Orthodox bishop holding a liturgy with men and women dancing and clapping (DURING A MASS!).
I REALLY disagree with this by the way. We should have taught them our spirituality, not diluted our Orthodox spirituality with African culture.
We are SO similar to the Russians on this, and the Greeks! They would NEVER have allowed such cultural traditions in the Church. REALLY. I know may find that hard to believe, but they wouldn't. I have spoken to many Greek Orthodox priests. Their spirituality is really something brilliant.
Yes, they have a few problems with their youth who see the Church at times as a greek cultural centre, but so? The Orthodox Way transcends culture. Its for everyone.. EVEN AFRICANS!!!!!
I thought for a second that you were talking about charismatic as in the charismatic movement. I'm not sure it dilutes our Orthodox spirituality, it has already been said that the Ethiopian Orthodox also have dancing (of sorts). May I ask how it dilutes our Orthodox Spirituality? (This is a sincere question, please don't take it as if I'm trying to start an argument).
The youth go to Africa and see our Church in a light that they've NEVER seen before: an Arabic speaking, Coptic Orthodox bishop holding a liturgy with men and women dancing and clapping (DURING A MASS!).
I REALLY disagree with this by the way. We should have taught them our spirituality, not diluted our Orthodox spirituality with African culture.
We are SO similar to the Russians on this, and the Greeks! They would NEVER have allowed such cultural traditions in the Church. REALLY. I know may find that hard to believe, but they wouldn't. I have spoken to many Greek Orthodox priests. Their spirituality is really something brilliant.
Yes, they have a few problems with their youth who see the Church at times as a greek cultural centre, but so? The Orthodox Way transcends culture. Its for everyone.. EVEN AFRICANS!!!!!
While I have agreed with just about everything you've said on this topic, I have to ask a few questions. Did we introduce the clapping in the church or was that their culture to begin with? I ask this because, as I'm sure you know, the EOTC (Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church), incorporates ritual clapping and drumming into their services, and until a few decades ago, they were not even separate from us, yet retained that aspect of worship in their rites. If it was part of their culture to begin with, why should we have a problem against it and try to force them to follow our rites? I feel as if we don't understand the full situation there which is causing a great problem here, for many of the youth are being exposed to aspects of these different cultures which they then think is acceptable to introduce to ours.
If you have lived all your life in the Coptic Church, you could be forgiven in thinking that we have an islamized orthodox Church, with priests who grow their beards, and no clapping or dancing in Churches. Why don't priests shave and move with the times?
LOL
That's dumb. That's sheer ignorance.
I used to think this way actually, and I regret it. I didnt see the message behind it. I just assumed I knew everything, when in fact, I knew nothing.
So, first of all, everything that we do in our Church IS Orthodox - the insisting on NOT clapping nor musical instruments in the mass IS VERY Orthodox. The chanting is Orthodox. The way and fashion of prayer is Orthodox. If you have a problem seeing this as orthodox, or as an Islamized Orthodox, just go to ANY Greek, Russian, Armenian, Romanian or Ukranian Orthodox Church and you'll see the EXACT same behaviour.
Then this taught me one other thing: If we are Orthodox in our spirituality as they are, then they must in fact like us , or at least respect us. Despite a few monks from the mount athos (who think Christ Himself was Greek), the Greeks do respect us tremendously, as do the other Churches.
They don't have this respect for the catholics. The catholics have tried everything and anything to bring the masses to the Churches. They've made the Church a "fun" place.
The Orthodox Church seems to be going in this route. They want to make it "fun" to help the young come to the Church. This is not the way. The idea isn't for someone to love your denomination. Its for them to come to Christ. Its for them to live in the fullness of the Christian faith.
So, our praying style IS also part of who we are. I agree the Ethiopian Orthodox Church have a different style to us but in ONE aspect. They emulate some parts of their hymns with their body movements. But are they Charismatic? No! Do they speak in tongues and promote it? No! Do they make people fall over thinking its the Holy Spirit? No! Do they play guitars during their mass ? No!
In my opinion, the closer one can get to living the life of early Church, the better. Even for the Ethiopians. In fact, the more we can revive what was our Coptic Orthodox Tradition and live it, the better we'll be.
I think the hymns where they clap and dance in the Ethiopian Church are few and are for certain occassions. Its not going to be like that in passion week.
I'm not sure it dilutes our Orthodox spirituality, it has already been said that the Ethiopian Orthodox also have dancing (of sorts). May I ask how it dilutes our Orthodox Spirituality? (This is a sincere question, please don't take it as if I'm trying to start an argument).
Yes, I disagree with the way the Coptic Orthodox Church is in certain parts of Africa, namely Kenya. I really do.
If I go to a country to teach English (as a foreign language), I may find the people (or students there) have a problem with the same accent I have. They may pronounce it differently. They may find it SO hard to pronounce.
But if I'm an English teacher, I will teach English.
I will not tell my students "Look, you know what.. if you can't pronounce this word (whatever word), don't bother, just use the words you are familiar with in your own dialect - and we'll all use that instead".
Well, that's awfully tolerant of me, but I haven't done my job. My job was to educate. It wasn't to go and dilute English nor reduce it to another language.
If I did this with EVERY WORD that I spoke to with my students, then I'd end up speaking swahili, not English with them, or a very diluted form of English. Depending on how bad a teacher I was. Some teachers try to be "cool" and be hip with their students. That's nice. But the best teachers are the ones who educate.
The same with the Church in Africa. We should have taught ORTHODOX SPIRITUALITY.
Its IN this spirituality, this spiritual culture given to us by our Orthodox Fathers, by the desert fathers, and those before them, that there are many gains. We don't just throw these jewels away.
So, this is wrong, and I can confirm to you, to make u feel better, that even Anba Boulos, has upset a lot of people with this.
[quote author=DavidI link=topic=10538.msg128551#msg128551 date=1296150777]
While I have agreed with just about everything you've said on this topic, I have to ask a few questions. Did we introduce the clapping in the church or was that their culture to begin with? I ask this because, as I'm sure you know, the EOTC (Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church), incorporates ritual clapping and drumming into their services, and until a few decades ago, they were not even separate from us, yet retained that aspect of worship in their rites. If it was part of their culture to begin with, why should we have a problem against it and try to force them to follow our rites? I feel as if we don't understand the full situation there which is causing a great problem here, for many of the youth are being exposed to aspects of these different cultures which they then think is acceptable to introduce to ours.
It's part of their culture.
Such culture belongs outside of the Church environment. Sorry.
Somethings are OK.. somethings are not.
There's no 2 ways about it.
The "way" we pray is part of our Orthodox identity. Its not a novel idea, or an idea that hasn't evolved over time... no!
Its completely ignorant to think this way.
i. There are aspects of culture which can be used in the service of the Orthodox Tradition.
ii. There are aspects of culture which the Christian must entirely reject.
iii. There are aspects of culture which are either neutral and though not matters which should be forbidden the Christian nevertheless are not suitable to be introduced into the Church.
Father Peter
In my personal life, I am a record collecting nerd and have a particular affinity for liturgical recordings, and have many from Africa. They're mostly Roman Catholic, and even in that case there is a clear and heartbreaking division: Some of them are very wild and virtually indistinguishable from tribal/non-religious recordings (one of them even has gunshots, apparently fired in joy during the liturgy! :o :'(), but some of them are very, very austere and beautiful and much more respectful and serious than the majority of masses I personally went to when I was Catholic. The first is clearly wrong ("cultural" or not); the second is befitting of God, and no less African or "cultural" because of it.
I agree with Zoxasi on this.
i. There are aspects of culture which can be used in the service of the Orthodox Tradition.
ii. There are aspects of culture which the Christian must entirely reject.
iii. There are aspects of culture which are either neutral and though not matters which should be forbidden the Christian nevertheless are not suitable to be introduced into the Church.
Father Peter
Look everyone,
You know me as being someone argumentative and insisting on my own point of view? Right? I had the opinion that the Church was Islamzied etc.. and I DID NOT understand that what we had was exactly the same as the other Orthodox Churches. I didnt realize this. Our style of prayer is something that is part of our identity. Its not something that we should change to move with the times.
I was ignorant and I didnt realize.
But, I'm not a Bishop, NOR a Church servant.
It wasn't fr. Peter that corrected me... NO.. i wasn't that smart to have listened. It was truly from the fact that I realized that we do things for a reason, and I noticed that the Greek Orthodox Church happen to follow the same spiritual traditions as us.. (if not even a bit more solemn), and so do the Romanians and the Russians.
And then I found that people actually came to these Orthodox Churches to escape the happy-clappy charismatic cultural environment that was in other Churches (SUCH AS THE CATHOLIC!)
I do stand corrected. We have something precious in our hands. Its our identity. Our spirituality. Its who we are.
We do not play guitars in Church, NOT because we are not used to it, and we only have cymbals, but there is more to it. The Church is not dumb.
Thank GOD I'm not a Bishop or a priest.. but if I was, I'd have had the humility to think and ask others wiser than me before going off and deciding on doing something like this to please the "youth". This is totally unacceptable.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10538.msg128562#msg128562 date=1296156598]
What would a properly Orthodox church look like in Kenya or other places with a similar culture, then?
This is precisely what I'm telling you. THE WAY WE PRAY IN OUR CHURCH, our spirituality, how we pray.. has nothing to do with our Egyptian Culture. The Greeks are the same as us and they are NOT egyptian. The same as the Russians and the Ethiopians.
Culture should not even come into this... leave the cultural stuff for what u do when someone gets married, or its your Birthday.. but the house of God should be entered into with the full conscience that nothing has been taken away or added to it from what has been influenced and directed by the Holy Spirit since the first Church. My friend, Orthodoxy is NOT about culture. This was my mistake. It really was. I thought that our Islamic culture had influenced our Church. I was gravely mistaken. This is total nonsense. Our style of worship is very important to our orthodox life. Its not a novel idea that we just came up with.
Like my example about the English teacher... the Ethiopian Church at least speak the Orthodox language, yet they have a small accent. that's fine.. the closer they can become to fully pronouncing everything fluently, the better they will be in Orthodoxy.
I think you've convinced me, I understand your position. However, I don't think that I understand the situation completely, so I prefer not to talk about what I don't know.
Please pray for me!
If anyone here is NOT yet convinced, let me quote the Pope.
The Church council was looking at ex-communicating a Coptic Priest who became popular by spreading Charismatic spirituality IN the Orthodox Church.
The Pope was seated down, and had all the Bishops around him. (I'll get the video of this meeting on YouTube.. i'm CERTAIN its there!).
They played a video of this monk preaching.
In the video, the monk was walking around the stage, talking and praying.
This is EXACTLY what the Pope said :"Look at his behaviour when he prays.. THIS IS NOT ORTHODOX" ... and then he continued ..."... we CANNOT have this in our Church. Its unacceptable".
The pope is not old fashioned, or ignorant! Nor is he stubborn like me, nor insists on his ideas even when he's wrong.. NO!
This is someone holding onto the WAY WE PRAY. OUR IDENTITY!!!
OUR ORTHODOX IDENTITY IS AT STAKE!!!!!!!!!!
People really need to understand what they're throwing away BEFORE they go and brush it off or replace it with something else.
What we have received , the way we pray, NOT JUST OUR CREED, but our MANNERISM in prayer, IS ORTHODOXY ALSO.
This is very precious, and irreplaceable
I think we might be making the same point, but you are making it clearer because you are Orthodox and I am not. My point in bringing up the Kenyans and contrasting them with the Ethiopians was to say, as I did, that the difference is not really a matter of culture (though they do have different cultures), but that the Ethiopians are Orthodox first and foremost, regardless of their similar cultural expressions.
Thanks for your good replies.
If I was ignorant, and I stand corrected about this issue.. what about others?
I have some humility left in me to even admit I had an erroneous understanding of Orthodoxy. But - there are a lot of people out there that have yet to learn what they are destroying.
How can we explain to them the way of prayer, or the Art of Orthodox prayer?
How do we explain this to them?
You see, I'm not a Church a servant. I don't have nor want a Sunday School. I'm not even a deacon..
But those that ARE serving, in some Churches, have a LOT to answer for. They are so adament about their opinions. They do have an agenda to change the church.
Its an ignorant driven agenda!!
I was just ignorant. I didnt have any agenda. Otherwise I wouldnt be saying any of this.
What I'm trying to say is, my opinion didnt influence anyone. But theirs does. I'm not in a position to influence anyone. But they are.
We are surrounded by a British culture, much of which is beautiful and edifying. There are a great many types of music, for instance. I am listening to some now while I am working. But the Church only chooses some music to be the bearer of the worship of the Church.
We are surrounded by ways of talking, but the Church chooses only some forms of discourse to be the bearer of the Gospel.
In our own British culture the Church is selective in what is appropriate. It is not diminisning of African cultures to also choose only some aspects as being proper to the life of the Church.
(As for Ethiopian worship, I would not call their liturgical movement dance or clapping except in the very loosest sense. It has nothing at all to do with the dancing and clapping in charismatic services). It is a very careful set of movements to assist in the singing as much as the use of an other rhythmic assistance.
Father Peter
Would you agree that playing the guitar in a prayer meeting is wrong? Its not Orthodox.
Singing hymns that the Church didnt select herself and is used in the protestant Church - is this right or wrong?
I think we have a problem still Fr. Peter.
Would you agree that playing the guitar in a prayer meeting is wrong? Its not Orthodox.
Singing hymns that the Church didnt select herself and is used in the protestant Church - is this right or wrong?
Integrating some things are acceptable and some things are not. The Coptic Church has the richest hymnology of any church in the world, of course I am biased, but there is no need to integrate any instrument. The purpose for coptic instruments is for timing. Guitars are to make things sound good and in protestant churches are used to help create a certain atmosphere, coupled with rythmic dancing creates madness. Videos of this madness I have posted on Orthodox Purity on FB. Things that have no bearing on the faith itself, like integrating the surrounding cultures language, are acceptable. ANY aspect of protestantism is unacceptable. Just as nestorianism would be and arianism would be.
I apologize.
I will not waste your time and the time of others by insisting that Boulos of Kenya is a heretic. Just keep an eye on this man when you visit him or when your church receives him on one of his social visits. He is dangerous specially when left alone with teenagers.
Zoxasi who is this Boulos?
Zoxsasi, You are right. I am sorry if quoting from your post made it look arranged. When glancing through the topic, I picked up the reference to my old time friend Boulos of Kenya and could not stop from writing a post or two in the honor of the man, if he has any left. A bit of self control on my part was necessary to avoid sidetracking the topic.
I apologize.
I will not waste your time and the time of others by insisting that Boulos of Kenya is a heretic. Just keep an eye on this man when you visit him or when your church receives him on one of his social visits. He is dangerous specially when left alone with teenagers.
No.. Don't worry. Why are you apologising for?
I was just making a point that we didnt know each other and we've never really talked about this issue, yet we ended up with the same opinion.
As for him being heretical.. I doubt that.
This may seem like a triffle issue to some people, but the way we pray, our mannerisms, is not something cultural.. that changes according to the country our Church is in. This is MY ONLY PROBLEM with Anba Boulos.
We have a lot of ex-protestants in our Church, who, after meeting him, are still talking in tongues. I'm not saying that he has told them they should continue with that.. I don't know. But his personality isn't going to put them off it. He doesn't promote Orthodox Spirituality. NO. He promotes Christianity.
That's OK... its not a crime.. but as I said, why even bother being Orthodox for?
What is required are simple unaccompanied tunes that are not emotional. I would like the Psalms to be set to such simple tunes for instance, and the hymns of all our Fathers could be made into songs. This does not require that they be literal and wooden translations, since what is being used is a text, but they should maintain the sense and substance.
In fact in the West there are Christian traditions which have done this with the Psalms. Some strict Presbyterian groups in Scotland did not want to introduce man-made songs and so sing only the Psalter in what was intended to be a strict translation.
Here for instance is Psalm 1 from a Metrical Psalter. It seems to me to be entirely possible to sing the Psalms in such a way. The translations are English and there are even simple un-accompanied tunes which have been used for hundreds of years.
1 That man hath perfect blessedness,
who walketh not astray
In counsel of ungodly men,
nor stands in sinners' way,
2 Nor sitteth in the scorner's chair:
But placeth his delight
Upon God's law, and meditates
on his law day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree that grows
near planted by a river,
Which in his season yields his fruit,
and his leaf fadeth never:
4 And all he doth shall prosper well
The wicked are not so;
But like they are unto the chaff,
which wind drives to and fro.
5 In judgment therefore shall not stand
such as ungodly are;
Nor in th' assembly of the just
shall wicked men appear.
6 For why? the way of godly men
unto the Lord is known:
Whereas the way of wicked men
shall quite be overthrown.
These Psalms are Orthodox. They are already set for singing. Why not sing them. Similar things could be done with many other sources, including the works of the great Syrian hymn writers. What is required is a true gift for poetry.
Father Peter
This hymn dates from the 4th century in the West. There is no excuse for picking modern Protestant songs that in no way compare to the great treasures already available in English.
Of the Father's love begotten,
ere the worlds began to be,
he is Alpha and Omega,
he the source, the ending he,
of the things that are, that have been,
and that future years shall see,
evermore and evermore!
At his word the words were framèd;
he commanded; it was done:
heaven and earth and depths of ocean
in their threefold order one;
all that grows beneath the shining
of the moon and burning sun,
evermore and evermore!
O that birth for ever blessèd,
when the Virgin, full of grace,
by the Holy Ghost conceiving,
bare the Savior of our race;
and the Babe, the world's Redeemer,
first revealed his sacred face,
evermore and evermore!
This is he whom seers in old time
chanted of with one accord;
whom the voices of the prophets
promised in their faithful word;
now he shines, the long expected,
let creation praise its Lord,
evermore and evermore!
O ye heights of heaven, adore him;
angel-hosts, his praises sing;
powers, dominions, bow before him,
and extol our God and King;
let no tongue on earth be silent,
every voice in concert ring,
evermore and evermore!
Thee let old men, thee let young men,
thee let boys in chorus sing;
matrons, virgins, little maidens,
with glad voices answering:
let their guileless songs re-echo,
and the heart its music bring,
evermore and evermore!
Christ, to thee with God the Father,
and, O Holy Ghost, to thee,
hymn and chant and high thanksgiving,
and unwearied praises be;
honor, glory and dominion,
and eternal victory,
evermore and evermore!
We all have some culture or background. I have some Hispanic background (but don't identify myself that way, cos I'm so white and speak very "pocho"). I would love to learn the Coptic liturgy in Spanish, and I have heard appropriate hymns in Spanish and inappropriate hymns in Spanish. Again, I think there is a weird attitude towards the place of culture in spreading Orthodoxy (agreeing with Zoxsasi, and Fr. Peter, and Ioannes, and everybody!). I have seen evidence that it is not only possible to be Hispanic and Orthodox, but it's already happening! But I have also seen evidence that when some people are afraid of offending the locals by taking away their guitars (which aren't native to anywhere but Spain anyway), some weird stuff can happen...
It is entirely up to the individual which side they will stand on. If I pray the "Misa" one day in Spanish, it won't be with a mariachi band in the background, I can tell you that much!
Is anyone able to produce some data for various locations?
Father Peter
I would be interested to know what proportion of congregations in the dioceses in the US, Canada, UK, Europe and Australia use guitars and sing modern Protestant songs?
Is anyone able to produce some data for various locations?
Father Peter
This is an amazingly good idea. I would be interested to know just how many churches have integrated aspects of protestantism into their church, especially the youth meetings.
Also, do you think a better name for Orthodox Purity would be "Sola Orthodoxia"?