GODlovesme, I spoke to a few people from that church and got nowhere. I spoke with my own abouna but I am not sure I was taken very seriously. The good thing here is that we have a good start with Fr. Peter and I am talking with Fr. Athanasius Iskander of Toronto. We have to be patient about this and work on educating people, informing them of the dangers of protestantism on any level. The more people, especially clergy, we have supporting this cause, staying true to Orthodox purity, the better our chances.
I have no idea what is going on in this thread (I stopped reading after my last post), but in regards to Fr. Peter's last post, I can give an educated guess and say that most -if not all- the churches in America not belonging in HGBY's diocese are affected by Protestantism. The West and North are at high risk, and Canada is already curropted.
TITL, this truly is a big task at hand, but if God is with us then who can be against us. I hate to sound so polarized but its the truth of the matter.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128601#msg128601 date=1296167080] TITL, this truly is a big task at hand, but if God is with us then who can be against us. I hate to sound so polarized but its the truth of the matter.
What task? Keeping our churches Orthodox? I haven't been following up with this chat. Thoxsasi made the thread boring and I'm not interested to read anymore.
Well that is why I am hoping to get all these people in disagreement together. My priest told me, I dont know better than a bishop. I told him that yes I do, because he was never part of any protestant church and I was part of many. I hate to sound so arrogant like that but I do not believe our leaders to be infallible and when in error need corrected. So the idea is to get everyone who is opposed to this together, as one. And then hopefully the priests and or bishops who support us will take it from there. Again I dont mean to sound like I am protesting, but being that I and many others are ignored, we are kind of forced to come together and make our voices heard.
This truly is a heresy, in my opinion, but that does not necessarily mean those who allow it to happen are heretics. We most definetly must respect those in authority, but we are ALL charged with preserving the church and there is a certain way we must do things. Steps if you will. But I have to say I am very suspicious of anyone with that kind of authority who allows this.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10538.msg128603#msg128603 date=1296167380] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128601#msg128601 date=1296167080] TITL, this truly is a big task at hand, but if God is with us then who can be against us. I hate to sound so polarized but its the truth of the matter.
What task? Keeping our churches Orthodox? I haven't been following up with this chat. Thoxsasi made the thread boring and I'm not interested to read anymore.
Just kidding.
Well stifling the growing protestant presence in our church.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10538.msg128074#msg128074 date=1295982188] Bring the cymbals to Sunday School. The person playing the guitar won't be able to keep the beat, and will eventually stop. Maybe.
For the songs: print off enough copies of your favorite spiritual songs from tasbeha.org.. possibly "My Coptic Church" or "My Fathers the Monks" ;)
[quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10538.msg128606#msg128606 date=1296169277] [quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128070#msg128070 date=1295980422] I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
I have an idea! talk to your FOC about it! Just take his opinion!
Well chris you KNOW what his opinion will be, but I will talk to him about it... I'm just saying... it is not a coincidence that out of 15 pages on this topic only 2-3 people are disagreeing.....
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128149#msg128149 date=1295995077] My brother Dzheremi
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell?? Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven?? ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ??? Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
As long as we educate others as to the danger of protestantism. Again if anyone would like my books to learn more go to http://stores.lulu.com/stjohnpublications or give me your email address and I will send a copy for free.
Look at what has become of the protestant church. They accept gays... They dont follow the sacrements... they have 3627987293 splits... evangelicals, Lutherans, baptists, etc....
WHY SHOULD OUR CHURCH ADOPT THEIR STYLE OF WORSHIP. WHYYYYYYYYY?
Indeed Copticboy. Protestantism is heresy, there is no reason to integrate anything non-Orthodox into our church. They are trying to brainwash our youth and that is just plain unacceptable.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10538.msg128637#msg128637 date=1296181282] [quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128635#msg128635 date=1296180529] just talked to my servant and he insist "the coptic church see the protestants as legitimate christians"
can anyone verify or refute that?
WHAT??? Some sects of Protestantism don't even believe in Christ...how in the world can they be Christians??? And other sects don't believe in works...so basically you can do whatever you want as long as you have faith and you believe in Christ, because you have been "saved." What is wrong with people these days?
Yea thats what I thought... but what is the official COC stance on this?
[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128635#msg128635 date=1296180529] just talked to my servant and he insist "the coptic church see the protestants as legitimate christians"
can anyone verify or refute that?
Indeed. They cannot possibly be considered Christians, if so, then we should all abandoned what we are doing because their way is easier. Both of their doctrines, sola scriptura and sola fide, are heresies that lead to a multitude of other heresies. For instance there are approximately 40,000 denominations, we cannot be sure of the exact number, if they are all Christian, then God is telling them all different things yet Eph 4:5 Says "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism" not many. If we accept protestantism then we are making Orthodoxy relative and obsolete. If the sacraments are not a necessity, then why do we do them? If sola scriptura and sola fide are correct, why did it only appear at the beginning of the 16th century, created by Luther, out of his fear of his own salvation (hence justification by faith alone or sola fide) and his disdain for any type of authority other than his own (hence scripture as sole authority or sola scriptura).
Every offshoot of Christianity, including JW's and Mormons and any other cult, Heavens Gate, Branch Davidians, etc. ALL have one thing in common, They all believe in the two pillars of protestantism (sola scriptura and sola fide). Yet Orthodoxy, even Catholicism, do not. There is a reason for that, they are NOT Christian, they are contrary to Orthodoxy. For instance, Sola Scriptura says that the scripture is the sole authority in Christianity, this denies the church as a whole, including the priesthood. In Numbers 16 check out what happens to Korah when he says all are equal, accusing Moses and Aaron of exalting themselves. Oddly enough Luther believed this very same thing, now called the priesthood of all believers, this is the same exact thing Korah did, and they almost say the exact same thing! What happened to Korah? God opened up the earth and swallowed him whole, he went to hades alive. So if Protestantism is true, then God changes.
Sola fide, or justification by faith alone. This is absurd that any Orthodox person, let alone a priest, would consider THIS Christian! This doctrine denies ALL the sacraments, including the sacrament of the Eucharist which Christ Himself said we MUST partake of to receive salvation, so this rejects not only Christs words but His body! It denies everything that we do to work towards our salvation and says that faith alone saves. How CAN we accept this as Christian?
We are warned several times in scripture about the apostasy and people following doctrines of devils, THIS IS the apostasy. You have my book brother, read, educate yourself. I am sure you priest is a good man so do not fault him or look at him any different. Be patient and pray.....and read my book lol.
I think the COC does not really take an official stance so it doesnt make anyone mad. Regardless of what is said, truth speaks for itself. The church has NEVER accepted heresy as Christian and NEVER will. The nestorian church still exists, basically the only difference between us and them is Christology, and their Christology is heresy, but the rest is pretty much the same, why dont we accept them as Christian? BECAUSE IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN! Just like protestantism, the pan-heresy of our time.
This is not about whether these denominations have the correct faith or dogmas or not.
THIS IS ABOUT OUR ORTHODOX IDENTITY.
WE HAVE A WAY OF PRAYER WE HAVE A WAY OF SINGING/Chanting
ITS WHO WE ARE.
People are returning to orthodoxy for the purpose of living in orthodox spirituality. Our way of prayer is important to us.
The argument of well, Protestants do it, Catholics do it etc is neither here nor there.
There is an orthodox way if prayer. There is the orthodox dogmas and teachings
Both are part of who we are.
If you like praising God with guitars and drums in a church whilst clapping, there is not ONE orthodox church that will permit this (Greek / Russian etc).
We are no different to them.
Orthodoxy is not JUST about the correct dogmas. It's beyond this.
Im leaving the CoC. That's it!! IM FED UP!!!!
Im going to the Greek or Russian. They at least have an identity that is consistent.
There's nothing wrong with profiteroles and cream. But if I wanted to eat a tuna sandwich, I wouldnt go and order Profiteroles and cream. I dont know if my message is clear!!!
Im in the Coptic Church for the Coptic ORTHODOX way of life. Playing guitars IS NOT part of that way of life. WHETHER those who play it or not are saved, i dont CARE!!!!
Do u get it!!???
I DONT CARE!!!!!!
ITS NONE OF MY BUSINESS WHO IS SAVED OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
The damaging part in all of this is that those who have gone to the CoC for an Orthodox experience when surrounded by people like CHRIST-ROSE, will NEVER have had the luxury of knowing what the Orthodox Spiritual Mannerisms are in Prayer. They'd have been Coptic Orthodox, and never even benefitted.
WHAT IS THE POINT!!
You might as well go and just make yourselves one with the catholics.
And WHY I WANT that orthodox way of prayer IS because I've experienced the happy clappy stuff. I've lived it. My soul searches for quietness in prayer, and that's definately not with the hymns they sing in the Friday meetings.
I want to become Protestant. Can someone teach me the methods? What must I do? I am looking for tangible approaches and methods. How do I leave the Orthodox Church? Is there a ticket I need to purchase or a passport?
My friend told me, I would have to:
1. Renounce the Holy Sacraments 2. Renounce the Orthodox Church 3. Renounce the Mother of God 4. Renounce Tasbeha.org 5. Renounce the History of the Church 6. Renounce receiving My Lord in the Eucharist 7. Renounce my family 8. Renounce all the sacrifices that were made by my ancestors to get me to this point. 9. Renounce my tonia and all that it stands for
On second thought, it is too much trouble. I think I will stay Orthodox. There is too much work with all this renouncing and denial of the Most Precious Gifts that were given by God.
Thank GOD my Coptic Church here is NOTHING like the Church in the UK. The priests and deacons are turning a blind eye as to what is going on in the name of tolerance. Its extremely irresponsible.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128673#msg128673 date=1296201375] Im leaving the CoC..
Thank GOD my Coptic Church here is NOTHING like the Church in the UK. The priests and deacons are turning a blind eye as to what is going on in the name of tolerance. Its extremely irresponsible.
You CANT leave.... I would feel horrible if my topic made you leave!!!
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128673#msg128673 date=1296201375] Im leaving the CoC..
Thank GOD my Coptic Church here is NOTHING like the Church in the UK. The priests and deacons are turning a blind eye as to what is going on in the name of tolerance. Its extremely irresponsible.
I don't understand, why are forcing Thoxsasi to stay? No one is forcing you, Thoxsasi, listen to your inner-conscious.. it's telling you to leave, I believe. (rhymes)
ILSMAAK (ILoveSaintMarkAndAnbaKaras), please edit number 4; it is incorrect.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128660#msg128660 date=1296197718] And actually, can I just say, that playing the cymbals like its a drum, or the triangle like its a musical instrument is not Orthodox either.
Its not.
listen bud... there is a huge difference between cultural influences, such as the triangle and the symbols, and influences from other religions.
Comments
TITL, this truly is a big task at hand, but if God is with us then who can be against us. I hate to sound so polarized but its the truth of the matter.
What task? Keeping our churches Orthodox? I haven't been following up with this chat. Thoxsasi made the thread boring and I'm not interested to read anymore.
Just kidding.
This truly is a heresy, in my opinion, but that does not necessarily mean those who allow it to happen are heretics. We most definetly must respect those in authority, but we are ALL charged with preserving the church and there is a certain way we must do things. Steps if you will. But I have to say I am very suspicious of anyone with that kind of authority who allows this.
What is the bishops name?
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128601#msg128601 date=1296167080]
TITL, this truly is a big task at hand, but if God is with us then who can be against us. I hate to sound so polarized but its the truth of the matter.
What task? Keeping our churches Orthodox? I haven't been following up with this chat. Thoxsasi made the thread boring and I'm not interested to read anymore.
Just kidding.
Well stifling the growing protestant presence in our church.
I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
I have an idea! talk to your FOC about it! Just take his opinion!
Bring the cymbals to Sunday School. The person playing the guitar won't be able to keep the beat, and will eventually stop. Maybe.
For the songs: print off enough copies of your favorite spiritual songs from tasbeha.org.. possibly "My Coptic Church" or "My Fathers the Monks" ;)
How peaceful, respectful and Christian
[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128070#msg128070 date=1295980422]
I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
I have an idea! talk to your FOC about it! Just take his opinion!
Well chris you KNOW what his opinion will be, but I will talk to him about it... I'm just saying... it is not a coincidence that out of 15 pages on this topic only 2-3 people are disagreeing.....
My brother Dzheremi
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell??
Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven??
ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ???
Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
:-* I LOVE YOU :-*
Look at what has become of the protestant church. They accept gays... They dont follow the sacrements... they have 3627987293 splits... evangelicals, Lutherans, baptists, etc....
WHY SHOULD OUR CHURCH ADOPT THEIR STYLE OF WORSHIP. WHYYYYYYYYY?
ITS CLEAR.
can anyone verify or refute that?
[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128635#msg128635 date=1296180529]
just talked to my servant and he insist "the coptic church see the protestants as legitimate christians"
can anyone verify or refute that?
WHAT??? Some sects of Protestantism don't even believe in Christ...how in the world can they be Christians??? And other sects don't believe in works...so basically you can do whatever you want as long as you have faith and you believe in Christ, because you have been "saved." What is wrong with people these days?
Yea thats what I thought... but what is the official COC stance on this?
just talked to my servant and he insist "the coptic church see the protestants as legitimate christians"
can anyone verify or refute that?
Indeed. They cannot possibly be considered Christians, if so, then we should all abandoned what we are doing because their way is easier. Both of their doctrines, sola scriptura and sola fide, are heresies that lead to a multitude of other heresies. For instance there are approximately 40,000 denominations, we cannot be sure of the exact number, if they are all Christian, then God is telling them all different things yet Eph 4:5 Says "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism" not many. If we accept protestantism then we are making Orthodoxy relative and obsolete. If the sacraments are not a necessity, then why do we do them? If sola scriptura and sola fide are correct, why did it only appear at the beginning of the 16th century, created by Luther, out of his fear of his own salvation (hence justification by faith alone or sola fide) and his disdain for any type of authority other than his own (hence scripture as sole authority or sola scriptura).
Every offshoot of Christianity, including JW's and Mormons and any other cult, Heavens Gate, Branch Davidians, etc. ALL have one thing in common, They all believe in the two pillars of protestantism (sola scriptura and sola fide). Yet Orthodoxy, even Catholicism, do not. There is a reason for that, they are NOT Christian, they are contrary to Orthodoxy. For instance, Sola Scriptura says that the scripture is the sole authority in Christianity, this denies the church as a whole, including the priesthood. In Numbers 16 check out what happens to Korah when he says all are equal, accusing Moses and Aaron of exalting themselves. Oddly enough Luther believed this very same thing, now called the priesthood of all believers, this is the same exact thing Korah did, and they almost say the exact same thing! What happened to Korah? God opened up the earth and swallowed him whole, he went to hades alive. So if Protestantism is true, then God changes.
Sola fide, or justification by faith alone. This is absurd that any Orthodox person, let alone a priest, would consider THIS Christian! This doctrine denies ALL the sacraments, including the sacrament of the Eucharist which Christ Himself said we MUST partake of to receive salvation, so this rejects not only Christs words but His body! It denies everything that we do to work towards our salvation and says that faith alone saves. How CAN we accept this as Christian?
We are warned several times in scripture about the apostasy and people following doctrines of devils, THIS IS the apostasy. You have my book brother, read, educate yourself. I am sure you priest is a good man so do not fault him or look at him any different. Be patient and pray.....and read my book lol.
THIS IS ABOUT OUR ORTHODOX IDENTITY.
WE HAVE A WAY OF PRAYER
WE HAVE A WAY OF SINGING/Chanting
ITS WHO WE ARE.
People are returning to orthodoxy for the purpose of living in orthodox spirituality.
Our way of prayer is important to us.
The argument of well, Protestants do it, Catholics do it etc is neither here nor there.
There is an orthodox way if prayer.
There is the orthodox dogmas and teachings
Both are part of who we are.
If you like praising God with guitars and drums in a church whilst clapping, there is not ONE orthodox church that will permit this (Greek / Russian etc).
We are no different to them.
Orthodoxy is not JUST about the correct dogmas. It's beyond this.
Im leaving the CoC. That's it!! IM FED UP!!!!
Im going to the Greek or Russian. They at least have an identity that is consistent.
There's nothing wrong with profiteroles and cream. But if I wanted to eat a tuna sandwich, I wouldnt go and order Profiteroles and cream. I dont know if my message is clear!!!
Im in the Coptic Church for the Coptic ORTHODOX way of life. Playing guitars IS NOT part of that way of life. WHETHER those who play it or not are saved, i dont CARE!!!!
Do u get it!!???
I DONT CARE!!!!!!
ITS NONE OF MY BUSINESS WHO IS SAVED OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
The damaging part in all of this is that those who have gone to the CoC for an Orthodox experience when surrounded by people like CHRIST-ROSE, will NEVER have had the luxury of knowing what the Orthodox Spiritual Mannerisms are in Prayer. They'd have been Coptic Orthodox, and never even benefitted.
WHAT IS THE POINT!!
You might as well go and just make yourselves one with the catholics.
And WHY I WANT that orthodox way of prayer IS because I've experienced the happy clappy stuff. I've lived it. My soul searches for quietness in prayer, and that's definately not with the hymns they sing in the Friday meetings.
I'm done with this thread.
Its not.
My friend told me, I would have to:
1. Renounce the Holy Sacraments
2. Renounce the Orthodox Church
3. Renounce the Mother of God
4. Renounce Tasbeha.org
5. Renounce the History of the Church
6. Renounce receiving My Lord in the Eucharist
7. Renounce my family
8. Renounce all the sacrifices that were made by my ancestors to get me to this point.
9. Renounce my tonia and all that it stands for
On second thought, it is too much trouble. I think I will stay Orthodox. There is too much work with all this renouncing and denial of the Most Precious Gifts that were given by God.
Thank GOD my Coptic Church here is NOTHING like the Church in the UK. The priests and deacons are turning a blind eye as to what is going on in the name of tolerance. Its extremely irresponsible.
Im leaving the CoC..
Thank GOD my Coptic Church here is NOTHING like the Church in the UK. The priests and deacons are turning a blind eye as to what is going on in the name of tolerance. Its extremely irresponsible.
You CANT leave.... I would feel horrible if my topic made you leave!!!
Go leave the church in another topic :D
PS: j.k DONT leave the church
Im leaving the CoC..
Thank GOD my Coptic Church here is NOTHING like the Church in the UK. The priests and deacons are turning a blind eye as to what is going on in the name of tolerance. Its extremely irresponsible.
You are not leaving the church.
ILSMAAK (ILoveSaintMarkAndAnbaKaras), please edit number 4; it is incorrect.
And actually, can I just say, that playing the cymbals like its a drum, or the triangle like its a musical instrument is not Orthodox either.
Its not.
listen bud... there is a huge difference between cultural influences, such as the triangle and the symbols, and influences from other religions.