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Why Coptic Christians go to Protestant Churches
Hi,
I know we have been discussing lately the rise of protestantism in our Church, but there is also the fact that Copts go to Protestant Churches which needs to be addressed.
I came across this article that may shed some light as to why this is happening:
http://continentalnews.net/christian-news/egypt-christian-news/learning-to-trust-a-young-egyptian-shares-her-faith-in-christ-6390.html
The Coptic Orthodox Christian in this report explains why she goes to the protestant Churches.
She feels that our Church is just "rules" and too "rigid" that take us from the relationship we need with Christ.
What do you all feel about that? Is this true? Does what she is saying hold any truth?
I can agree that we may not allow personal prayer time in our liturgy. Its all Priest-Congregation-Priest-Congregation-Deacon responses - one after the other. I don't even think we have enough time to actually worship the Body of Christ IN the Liturgy. Although we can bow and worship the Holy Body and Blood, I think this most intimate part just goes very fast indeed.
I can relate to her need for personal growth or relationship with Christ, but I am hesitant and very cautious of the way she intends to achieve it.
I know we have been discussing lately the rise of protestantism in our Church, but there is also the fact that Copts go to Protestant Churches which needs to be addressed.
I came across this article that may shed some light as to why this is happening:
http://continentalnews.net/christian-news/egypt-christian-news/learning-to-trust-a-young-egyptian-shares-her-faith-in-christ-6390.html
The Coptic Orthodox Christian in this report explains why she goes to the protestant Churches.
She feels that our Church is just "rules" and too "rigid" that take us from the relationship we need with Christ.
What do you all feel about that? Is this true? Does what she is saying hold any truth?
I can agree that we may not allow personal prayer time in our liturgy. Its all Priest-Congregation-Priest-Congregation-Deacon responses - one after the other. I don't even think we have enough time to actually worship the Body of Christ IN the Liturgy. Although we can bow and worship the Holy Body and Blood, I think this most intimate part just goes very fast indeed.
I can relate to her need for personal growth or relationship with Christ, but I am hesitant and very cautious of the way she intends to achieve it.
Comments
There are people out there who see things as a zero-sum game: I can either be in a stuffy, rigid, uncaring Orthodox Church, or in a Protestant church that lets me be me and worship God "freely", i.e. in the way I want to. It is this "me-centered" Christianity that appeals to so many people, apparently even Orthodox people. Frankly, it feels better, and that's what Protestantism is all about -- feelings and emotionalism. I don't see her criticism of Orthodoxy as being terribly valid (not that it shouldn't be addressed, in the same way that the Church should defend itself against all false characterizations of its faith), as it is based around a false idea of what Christian worship is. As I wrote in the thread about "Self-Esteem", anytime you start looking at things from a "self-" perspective, you're all turned around. That definitely applies to worship, too. Even personal prayer is ideally not a self-centered thing, is it?
Basically you can justify doing suggestive things with your "girlfriend", they do whatever they want and interpret the Bible however they want.
What do you mean by that?
The atmosphere they promote there is that of a Christian social club. Most of the people I saw there were in fact youth. They have tons of Orthodox youth, who I distinguished by their names and thier wrist crossess. Everyone around me was overly welcoming and pleasant. I'm sure the reason they attract so many Orthodox youth is because they put a Christian spin on less spiritual activities that all humans engage in. For example, they promote boys and girls socializing, whereas most Orthodox churches will try and downplay that (at least here in Egypt.) They appeal to a person's artistic side with more current music, that everyone ends up getting stuck in their head. They play on a person's attitude towards Christ, with emotional speeches that often physically involve the congregation. They have a bunch of after-school activities, essentially ensuring that the church is open at all times, welcoming anyone who is bored and has nothing to do.
It's this fun version of Christianity that seems to appeal to the masses. I actually know an Orthodox Sunday School servant, who loves going there. He's invited me on more than one occasion (I don't think he knew I was familiar with the Church) to accompany him to the meetings using selling points like "It'll be fun" or "You'll love hte music" or "this one preacher's words are beautiful inspiring." He's also made it clear, that he loves the socializing factor of it all, and enjoys being allowed to associate with women, which he's not normally used to here in Egypt.
It's funny because I remember once hearing that Arius the heretic was quite the musician nad lyricists; and one way of spreading his thoughts was by composing beautiful tunes with heretical lyrics. I don't know how historically sound this story is, I've never read it in a text or anything, but it seems to me, that history is in fact repeating itself.
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that dzheremi's presence in this forum is much appreciated as we have all learned a little something from his posts, so thank you dzheremi for joining our community :)
For those tasbeha hermits that are living in a cave, dzheremi is not Orthodox, and like all converts (to be), there is a touching story and journey behind each transformation. Father Peter, Mabsoota, and Ioannes have already been put on the spot, it's your turn dzheremi!
Please share with us your journey and experiences. :)
We will resume to "Why Coptic Christians go to Protestant Churches" after the break... or until Thoxsasi kicks me out.
Cardinal Newman, the Englishman on his way to becoming an RC saint, wrote...
If one were to attempt to form a judgment on the nature of Arius's proceeding, it would be this; that he attempted to popularize his heresy by introducing it into the common employments and recreations of life, and having no reverence, he fell into the error of modern religionists, who, with a better creed, sing spiritual songs at table, and use in their chapels glees and opera airs.
Thus, Newman draws himself, as an Anglican/Episcopalian the connection between the type of heretical songs and unsuitable tunes used by Arius to promote his heresy, and the use of such styles of song in modern times.
This probably isn't the thread for it, and since I didn't want to create a new thread (eh I guess I could of..), I thought, and hoped, Thoxsasi would be kind enough to let me hijack this one.. as I did with all his other ones, to ask a question.
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that dzheremi's presence in this forum is much appreciated as we have all learned a little something from his posts, so thank you dzheremi for joining our community :)
For those tasbeha hermits that are living in a cave, dzheremi is not Orthodox, and like all converts (to be), there is a touching story and journey behind each transformation. Father Peter, Mabsoota, and Ioannes have already been put on the spot, it's your turn dzheremi!
Please share with us your journey and experiences. :)
We will resume to "Why Coptic Christians go to Protestant Churches" after the break... or until Thoxsasi kicks me out.
Haha. Okay. I will start another thread for this, if you don't mind. I don't want to blather on about myself in Zoxsasi's thread.
This belief is dangerous and way more dangerous than the earliest heretical beliefs like montanism,arianism,nestorianism etc,because it didn't die like the others which continued for more than 400 years and continually adapts itself according to the environment just like a virus,so what is our next step going to a mosque and say "Oh it's the same God we worship",because it is monothestic,It is better that this confused members should be corrected and taught the fundamental concept of Christianity before they infiltrate the Church with usual protestant deception.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10823.msg131517#msg131517 date=1298581925]
This probably isn't the thread for it, and since I didn't want to create a new thread (eh I guess I could of..), I thought, and hoped, Thoxsasi would be kind enough to let me hijack this one.. as I did with all his other ones, to ask a question.
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that dzheremi's presence in this forum is much appreciated as we have all learned a little something from his posts, so thank you dzheremi for joining our community :)
For those tasbeha hermits that are living in a cave, dzheremi is not Orthodox, and like all converts (to be), there is a touching story and journey behind each transformation. Father Peter, Mabsoota, and Ioannes have already been put on the spot, it's your turn dzheremi!
Please share with us your journey and experiences. :)
We will resume to "Why Coptic Christians go to Protestant Churches" after the break... or until Thoxsasi kicks me out.
Haha. Okay. I will start another thread for this, if you don't mind. I don't want to blather on about myself in Zoxsasi's thread.
TITL or anyone else who is interested: My story is now posted in this thread.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=10823.msg131510#msg131510 date=1298561165]
Basically you can justify doing suggestive things with your "girlfriend", they do whatever they want and interpret the Bible however they want.
What do you mean by that?
They say that kissing ur girlfriend is ok and that dating with no intention to marry is ok and normal
This sad situation can be attributed to a sequence of events, dating back to the mid 1800's and early 1900's when the Sunday School movement and its western ideals invaded Coptic spirituality. By the 1970's, it dominated Coptic spirituality and played a vital role in shaping the Coptic mind in a Protestant mold.
Father Matta EL-Maskeen wrote an article in the 1950's to blow the whistle on this problem and detailed the reasons of Protestant influence in the Church. This article can be found in his book "Service" (El-7'edmah).
Before you say anything about this please read it. I don't think that it can be explained properly without reading it. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but I think this applies to Sunday School. Though it originated from Protestantism it was taken and made Orthodox and became an additional tool.
In fact many of the Church Fathers including St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, and St. John Chrysostom. They certainly didn't agree with much of what Plato said (I haven't read his works so I can't comment too much about them), but they took his ideas and used them in an Orthodox manner. My point in pointing this out is to show that it is not about necessarily using ideas from Protestantism or even from Plato and Aristotle, but it is about whether they are used in an Orthodox Christian manner.
The problem isn't in the thing itself, but in how it is used. Please correct me if I'm wrong in anything I said.
What Christianity essentially is is a relationship with God, correct? everything else stems from, builds, and strengthens that - in fact most protestants think of Catholicism as the only other type of Christianity and avoid that b/c of its past. Protestantism has brought millions to God, is every one of those people irrelevant?
it is also an excellent way to easily be introduced or Christianity because it is not as daunting as an orthodox church. Yes, SOME may have wrong interpretations such as the idea of when dating is acceptable as previously mentioned, or trying to predict the apocalypse.
I feel like this hatred towards protestants and their "infiltration" in the church is a little over the top, i dont think singing 'protestant' songs in sunday school is detrimental as some may have suggested, it is still praising God even though it wasnt written into the liturgy thousands of years ago.
I understand the importance of upholding orthodoxy, especially to converts such as Fr. Peter, but i feel like constantly ranting about protestant christian and converts working with what is given to them and what is known as "Christianity" is a bit harsh, and not beneficial.
i feel like we are generalizing a bit too much, of course the theology of protestantism is not the true Christianity, but that does not mean that all protestants are bad people nor bad Christians- they have been given that and it makes sense (unfortunately just as other religions).
What Christianity essentially is is a relationship with God, correct? everything else stems from, builds, and strengthens that - in fact most protestants think of Catholicism as the only other type of Christianity and avoid that b/c of its past. Protestantism has brought millions to God, is every one of those people irrelevant?
it is also an excellent way to easily be introduced or Christianity because it is not as daunting as an orthodox church. Yes, SOME may have wrong interpretations such as the idea of when dating is acceptable as previously mentioned, or trying to predict the apocalypse.
I feel like this hatred towards protestants and their "infiltration" in the church is a little over the top, i dont think singing 'protestant' songs in sunday school is detrimental as some may have suggested, it is still praising God even though it wasnt written into the liturgy thousands of years ago.
I understand the importance of upholding orthodoxy, especially to converts such as Fr. Peter, but i feel like constantly ranting about protestant christian and converts working with what is given to them and what is known as "Christianity" is a bit harsh, and not beneficial.
Well, the objective of this thread wasn't to talk about protestantism anyway. Its objective was to see why the Coptic Orthodox Christian feels the need to go. I've managed to pinpoint 4 statements from the article I've posted that may shed some light into this:
a) The Protestant Church is open 24/7
b) There is more mixing between men and women.
c) There is more time for prayer.
d) There is less tradition and more talks relevant to their lives.
Now, Im not living in Egypt, but I must admit, point a) is important.
We can all have our own personal prayer time at home, and if you can, great.. but if you have 4 kids and a small home, you really need a place to pray from time to time.. and if the Protestant/Catholic is open 24/7, then this is something perhaps we can deal with.
Secondly, there is a far greater mixing between men and women in protestant congregations... however, I don't think its a valid argument all the time. There is mixing between men and women in the Orthodox Churches, ESPECIALLY outside Egypt. However, perhaps what the lady in the article means is: when we mix in the Orthodox Church, what binds us is not necessarily Christ. Is it? This part has a lot of truth. It really is Egypt.
Whereas Christians in Egypt are not going to go to the Church to speak Arabic, have an Arabic Social Life and mix with Egyptians Christians of the same nationality. Are they!? What they have in common IS Christ.
I sort of understand this point, if that is the case.
c) Personal Prayer Time.
I agree with this point 110%
I think our entire prayers or praying time that the Church gives us is either through the Agpeya, OR in the liturgy is insufficient , or non-existent. When do we get a chance to sit down/standup and pray to God, reflect on God's words, or have quiet time with ourselves to actually be accountable for our spiritual well being???
Even in the holy liturgy - its priest-congregation-priest-deacons responses.. there's no time in the Liturgy to pray for yourself. When can you do that??
In the Holy Coptic Orthodox Liturgy of Saint Basil... you've gone and prayed for the
* Raising of the Waters this year that Christ can bring them to their measure
* The Pope and all priests
* More prayers for the Pope and Priests
* Intercession to saints
* and then to dig it in, some bright spark will start singing PI-NISHTI JUST IN CASE we've forgotten to mention ANYONE else in the intercession of saints that we should have mentioned!!
ALL THIS - AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN HAD TIME TO PRAY FOR OURSELVES!!
And whilst ALL this is going on... we're even praying in Coptic at times when we need to be actually understanding what is going on and being said.
WHEN CAN WE PRAY FOR OURSELVES????
I guess we can pray for ourselves, but its probably when the Church is empty and abouna isn't there. But how often is the Church empty?
d) This is the part I disagree with.
Really. If the Coptic Priests DID in fact focus on orthodox spirituality, I wouldn't mind. And thank God, a lot do.
So, I disagree with point d 100%. Orthodox spirituality IS pertinent to our daily lives, especially the sermons... but I'm not sure this applies to all priests. I would hope that the Coptic Priests try not to become too hip and focus their sermons from the sayings of the Church Fathers.
Actually, what does bother me is that priests seem to becoming influenced by their Church "protestentized youth" than actually influencing them with the correct spirituality and meaning of our scriptures.
IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.
I had a discussion with Fr. Peter about this ages ago. Entire Orthodox Soteriology is based on baptism. Without it, salvation is not possible.
Protestant soteriology is TOTALLY different. It has nothing to do with the sacraments. So, their entire spirituality lacks in this.
How long is the average liturgy? 2 hours? Maybe 3? That leaves the worshiper 165 hours in their week in which to pray personal prayers outside of the liturgy. 3 hours in the week is too long to not focus on yourself? And besides, in communal worship of the type practiced in the apostolic churches the prayers and responses include you, so as long as you are present and attentive you're certainly not praying any less than you would be if you were praying alone in your bedroom or office or wherever you pray your personal prayers. So I really do not understand this idea that there is more time for prayer in the protestant churches. Their services are shorter and full of spontaneous nonsense (not prayer), so even if they spent 50% of them in personal prayer, it still wouldn't be as much as in the Orthodox church.
Can someone please clarify the point about the liturgy and personal prayer? Because from all I've read and heard, the liturgy doesn't have individualistic prayer because it's not the time and place to do that. It is communal worship. Have I misunderstood the nature of the liturgy?
How long is the average liturgy? 2 hours? Maybe 3? That leaves the worshiper 165 hours in their week in which to pray personal prayers outside of the liturgy. 3 hours in the week is too long to not focus on yourself? And besides, in communal worship of the type practiced in the apostolic churches the prayers and responses include you, so as long as you are present and attentive you're certainly not praying any less than you would be if you were praying alone in your bedroom or office or wherever you pray your personal prayers. So I really do not understand this idea that there is more time for prayer in the protestant churches. Their services are shorter and full of spontaneous nonsense (not prayer), so even if they spent 50% of them in personal prayer, it still wouldn't be as much as in the Orthodox church.
This is the ONLY issue i agree with.
There is no personal prayer time for your personal issues in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
The ONLY time that you can pray for yourself is during the Agpeya readings in the matins or vespers. The idea is to use the words of the agpeya as your own words. To pray for your own problems using the words of the Agpeya. This is highly encouraged.
However, with the tune and the time and the spirit of "quick.. yalla yalla.. pray.. next person read.. pray.. yalla !! YALLA!! Khallassny yabni, we're late for the liturgy... finish quickly..." We end up babbling through the only time we can actually contemplate and pray for our problems.
Then the Holy Liturgy starts:
* We ask the intercessions of the saints.
* We mention EVERY single saint just in case they can help us. We end each verse for them with "That He may forgive us our sins..."
* God is already willing to forgive us our sins, if we ask for forgiveness and repent. When is there a time IN ANY of these prayers to even contemplate on our sins??? When can we have time to pray and ask for forgiveness for our sins anyway.
* Anyway, we finish the Hiteneyats , and then we go on to MORE intercession prayers.
* Then there are the Bible readings.. You cannot pray and listen to the Bible
* There's Agios Otheos. This is a good prayer, and I feel its the only time in the ENTIRE mass that you are actually praying for yourself asking for forgiveness for your sins, AND worshipping God! THat's it!!
* If you are lucky, MAYBE they'll sing Jai nainan, or something else - but its not that often/
* And then there is the sermon. If this is in Arabic, and there was no other hymns being sung, then that's just going to push the Coptic Christian (who is not fluent in Arabic) out of the door. That's the last straw.
There's only so much someone can take
protestants don't have no traditions, they have different traditions. once they are established, they can become suffocating. this is why a new church breaks away every 30 years or so, coz the artificial traditions do not feel nice. all humans in groups make traditions; just read some introductory books on sociology to learn more.
in case no-one noticed, the coptic liturgy is about 2 to 3 hours long and only about 1/3 of it involves congregation responses! this leaves 1 to 2 hours for personal prayer. so while the priest is praying, we are praying too, and we can mention in our hearts to God the things we need to pray about. eg. we can ask for help to not commit certain sins, like gossip, we can see someone we know a few rows ahead and pray for that person and their family, and during the prayer of reconciliation, we can pray for people we don't have a good relationship with and forgive them and ask God for His help. then if the person is present in the church, we can go and greet that person with a smile. very much of the liturgy is praising God, so we can tell God we love Him and thank Him for His great creation and for all that He has given us.
there is a lot of worship regarding the Body and Blood of our Lord, there is the institution prayer, and we can pray along with this, and then there is the prayer for the churches and the created world (again, we can add our own small prayers here in our minds) and then after there is more worship of God in the Body and Blood.
so if we didn't worship enough during the institution narrative, we can worship some more!
i am sure many people find their mind wanders in the liturgy and they start thinking about lunch or work or a test they have at school. then is a good time to add a small personal prayer and then listen again to the beautiful words of the liturgy.
lastly, i love protestants, and know many very sincere ones who find it hard to see the joy of the orthodox liturgy partly because of the blocks in their mind from their own traditions, but also partly because of the reaction of orthodox people who make them feel like ignorant pagans.
so, it's good to be respectful and kind to them, and focus on the beauty of our church rather than the things lacking in their churches.
jfarag, unless we say something against the people themselves, be quiet. I cannot stand you and other protestants, or protestant sympathizers, constantly turning this into something its not. We are attacking the belief not the individual, get it through your head or refrain from posting on these topics, since it seems to upset you so much. And stop pushing your liberal agenda, it is disgusting to see here on an ORTHODOX website. Protestantism IS evil, it IS wrong and NOT Christian. That is not condemning nor judging the people, read closely and you will notice the word ProtestantISM, which is referring to the belief not the adherant.
I agree with Ioannes on this one. We are not "bashing Protestants," it is "Protestantism" that we are refuting.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10823.msg131567#msg131567 date=1298626883]
There is no personal prayer time for your personal issues in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I think Mabsoota explained it perfectly in her post. I recommend you take a look at the The Spirituality of the Rites of the of the Holy Liturgy in the Coptic Orthodox Church by H.G. Bishop Mettaous, if you haven't done so already.
We are constantly throughout the Liturgy worshipping God and asking for the forgiveness of our sins. We are constantly raising our hearts and eyes towards the east, to the Altar and the Body and Blood of Emmanuel our God.
Just because there isn't a prayer named the "Litany of Remembering your Sins" it doesn't mean that you cannot feel your heart burn within you whenever you look up towards Christ hanging on the Cross above the iconostasis for your sins. It doesn't stop you from reflecting deep within yourself when you reply to the Priest's "Lift up your hearts" with "We have them with the Lord," wondering whether your heart has belonged to the Lord recently. It doesn't stop you from asking yourself if you have been a faithful son of God whenever you pray "Our Father."
There is no reason that all of this cannot be happening within you, while you also partake in the communal prayer of the Liturgy. There is no reason that all of this cannot be happening all throughout the Liturgy.
If you are constantly pressed for time during the week, or for whatever reason don't pray as much as you should (I am in this position), then the Liturgy can be the peak of your spirituality. How wonderful it is, that for three hours we can ignore the business of the world around us, and focus our attentions solely on God!
Time constraints are often not ideal, I agree. And there ought to be sufficient time for everything to be done decently, and in order. But even the little time that we worship and serve God faithfully is blessed.
"His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'" (Matthew 25:23)
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131561#msg131561 date=1298614011]
jfarag, unless we say something against the people themselves, be quiet. I cannot stand you and other protestants, or protestant sympathizers, constantly turning this into something its not. We are attacking the belief not the individual, get it through your head or refrain from posting on these topics, since it seems to upset you so much. And stop pushing your liberal agenda, it is disgusting to see here on an ORTHODOX website. Protestantism IS evil, it IS wrong and NOT Christian. That is not condemning nor judging the people, read closely and you will notice the word ProtestantISM, which is referring to the belief not the adherant.
I agree with Ioannes on this one. We are not "bashing Protestants," it is "Protestantism" that we are refuting.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10823.msg131567#msg131567 date=1298626883]
There is no personal prayer time for your personal issues in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I think Mabsoota explained it perfectly in her post. I recommend you take a look at the The Spirituality of the Rites of the of the Holy Liturgy in the Coptic Orthodox Church by H.G. Bishop Mettaous, if you haven't done so already.
We are constantly throughout the Liturgy worshipping God and asking for the forgiveness of our sins. We are constantly raising our hearts and eyes towards the east, to the Altar and the Body and Blood of Emmanuel our God.
Just because there isn't a prayer named the "Litany of Remembering your Sins" it doesn't mean that you cannot feel your heart burn within you whenever you look up towards Christ hanging on the Cross above the iconostasis for your sins. It doesn't stop you from reflecting deep within yourself when you reply to the Priest's "Lift up your hearts" with "We have them with the Lord," wondering whether your heart has belonged to the Lord recently. It doesn't stop you from asking yourself if you have been a faithful son of God whenever you pray "Our Father."
There is no reason that all of this cannot be happening within you, while you also partake in the communal prayer of the Liturgy. There is no reason that all of this cannot be happening all throughout the Liturgy.
If you are constantly pressed for time during the week, or for whatever reason don't pray as much as you should (I am in this position), then the Liturgy can be the peak of your spirituality. How wonderful it is, that for three hours we can ignore the business of the world around us, and focus our attentions solely on God!
Time constraints are often not ideal, I agree. And there ought to be sufficient time for everything to be done decently, and in order. But even the little time that we worship and serve God faithfully is blessed.
"His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'" (Matthew 25:23)
Excellent point. Thanks for your post, and I will try and read the book by Fr. Matteos.
If priests didnt rush the agpeya, I'd be OK - but sometimes they do.
Other than that... Why do u think this girl is going to the Protestant Churches??
Zoxasi, yea there is plenty of time for personal prayer, in fact when serving in the altar when the deacon is not doing anything they should be in constant prayer. I am guessing this girl is going to a protestant church because it affords her things the Coptic church cant. She can be a pastor in protestantism, she can believe in the god she wants to believe in. Notice it is never the individuals fault but the churches fault. She talks so condescendingly of the church I assume she is placing blame on it for her "lack of spirituality". In reality it is a lack of knowledge for "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6) Either she did nothing to learn or could not understand what she was being taught, its a nice scapegoat for her to reject the church for her own desires. Leaving the Orthodox church for protestantism is like swapping a Lexus for a Pinto, it doesnt make any sense.
The sunday school service in Egypt (in the Coptic Orthodox Church) is just brilliant. I mean, its second to none.
I am a bit surprised she is saying this.
OK.. fair enough, the time in the mass is well spent because we are adoring the Body and Blood of Christ, but it would be nice if the priest didnt rush us during the agpeya readings.. you agree?!!!
I don't know why they mumble it also.. they should take their time to read the prayers in the Agpeya.. i hate it when they do that!!!
Excellent point. Thanks for your post, and I will try and read the book by Fr. Matteos.
If priests didnt rush the agpeya, I'd be OK - but sometimes they do.
Other than that... Why do u think this girl is going to the Protestant Churches??
There are probably a multitude of factors going on that made her decide to go to the Protestant church, I wouldn't necessarily presume that she wrote all of the actual reasons in her article.
Perhaps she had fallen out with someone in the Church. Perhaps she had pursued a relationship with someone from outside the Church. We can't say for sure.
What we can learn from this article are the things we ought to be doing, as children of God all belonging to one family, to ensure that we do not become a stumbling block before others. We need to ensure that we ourselves are not the reason that something like this happens.
How many times have we had an argument with someone at Church over something trivial?
How many times have we refused to eat our pride and admit that we were wrong?
How many times did we put ourselves in a position of honour instead of offering someone else the opportunity to stand out?
How many times have we made sure our words are loud and heard by everyone else, rather than being quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger?
How many times have we been lazy and neglected to welcome newcomers to the Church, and offer to explain the rites and hierachy of the Church, and to answer any questions they might have?
I speak here in hypocrisy; I am guilty of having done all of the things above many times. But it is what we ought to do, what we should strive to do, to ensure that we are blameless before others, and an aid not a hindrance to their salvation.
"Then He said to the disciples, 'It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.'" (Luke 17:1)
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131581#msg131581 date=1298644241]
Zoxasi, yea there is plenty of time for personal prayer, in fact when serving in the altar when the deacon is not doing anything they should be in constant prayer. I am guessing this girl is going to a protestant church because it affords her things the Coptic church cant. She can be a pastor in protestantism, she can believe in the god she wants to believe in. Notice it is never the individuals fault but the churches fault. She talks so condescendingly of the church I assume she is placing blame on it for her "lack of spirituality". In reality it is a lack of knowledge for "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6) Either she did nothing to learn or could not understand what she was being taught, its a nice scapegoat for her to reject the church for her own desires. Leaving the Orthodox church for protestantism is like swapping a Lexus for a Pinto, it doesnt make any sense.
The sunday school service in Egypt (in the Coptic Orthodox Church) is just brilliant. I mean, its second to none.
I am a bit surprised she is saying this.
OK.. fair enough, the time in the mass is well spent because we are adoring the Body and Blood of Christ, but it would be nice if the priest didnt rush us during the agpeya readings.. you agree?!!!
I don't know why they mumble it also.. they should take their time to read the prayers in the Agpeya.. i hate it when they do that!!!
lol. Zoxasi, the liturgy is already 2-3 hrs. If priests didn't rush through stuff, we'd be there for 6 hours. I know a priest eho prayed his first liturgy without rushing through anything and it lasted that long. His brother-in-law was like "kot hakhalini anker!" he was joking ofcourse!