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My Church likes to skip hymns

ChristOnlyChristOnly
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hello,
I like hymns, but unfortunately, my church loves not to chant a lot of them, so I feel like there is no need to practice them.

Like Meghalo for example,
we don't chant it.

Or rarely do we chant the hymn of intersessions or Sabaa' Taraeh (Seven Ways)
and the list goes on.

What's your take on this?
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Comments

  • imikhailimikhail
    Whwt is the reason for skipping?

  • Christforlife7Christforlife7
    Are there enough deacons to sing these hymns as a chorus? Or does it seem like it'll just be 2 or 3 deacons jamming on their own for 15 minutes? As I get older, I'm seeing both sides of the problem lol
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    try to talk to your priest. this is how we lose hymns
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135810#msg135810 date=1302550714]
    Whwt is the reason for skipping?

    i am also concerned about the reason for skipping hymns.....

    "try to talk to your priest. this is how we lose hymns."
    i really doubt we will lose the hymns that we have now....even if no church sing them at all.
  • ChristOnlyChristOnly
    Reason?
    Well, Abouna says no.
    Why?
    Only God knows.

    We have a few really young and reallyloud  deacons that kind of take over. No one can really hear themselves other them. That has nothing to do with the hymns though...
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11241.msg135813#msg135813 date=1302558177]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135810#msg135810 date=1302550714]
    Whwt is the reason for skipping?

    i am also concerned about the reason for skipping hymns.....

    "try to talk to your priest. this is how we lose hymns."
    i really doubt we will lose the hymns that we have now....even if no church sing them at all.


    umm... if we don't sing a specific hymn, and those who know it don't pass it on, i would think that over time, that hymn will be lost
  • geomike
    There might be many reasons for a priest skipping a hymn.


    1. No one knows it.

    2. Only one person knows and church is not a place to have a solo.

    3. Save time (i don't like this one, but it is a reason sometimes.).
  • ChristOnlyChristOnly
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=11241.msg135819#msg135819 date=1302565101]
    There might be many reasons for a priest skipping a hymn.


    1. No one knows it.

    2. Only one person knows and church is not a place to have a solo.

    3. Save time (i don't like this one, but it is a reason sometimes.).



    1. Well, I think #1 can be applied to a few complex hymns but we do have some really great deacons so it's not that NO ONE knows it, it's that 2-3 know it well.

    2. Above point answers this one

    3. I think saving time is true for a few hymns, like Sabah Taraeh and everyone just wants to go home and eat their meat but a song like O Beloved on Great Friday? And MANY people know that hymn/song. So your reasons for skipping or not saying are true for most hymns but a few specific ones like this one doesn't fall under any of your three points.

    Granted we do chant some longer hymns like the Psalms during Pascha and these are worth practicing.

    My question now is, should I still practice the hymns we don't chant? Seeing there is no hope in really chanting them? I can compare this to practicing an instrument your never going to play.
    Feedback?

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    Don't stop learning, If you learn than you can eventually teach if need be and hymns you don't usually say can become more common at your church, people will get used to it. Do it gradually. Don't expect to sing every hymn you are supposed to and people stop coming when they should because church is too "long". But you can gradually do it so that they get more and more used to the longer liturgies and services. It works, we didn't used to do tasbeha on a weekly basis and never did full on tasbehas with everything. But the more and more we did it the more we didn't mind staying a little longer to do longer tasbehas. Now we pretty much do everything at least tasbeha wise. Just keep pushing.
  • SilentOneSilentOne
    [quote author=ChristOnly link=topic=11241.msg135821#msg135821 date=1302567070]
    My question now is, should I still practice the hymns we don't chant? Seeing there is no hope in really chanting them? I can compare this to practicing an instrument your never going to play.
    Feedback?


    Doesn't mean you can't chant and pray it privately. If you have the means and ability to learn the hymn now, do so, for who knows when you might get the opportunity to learn it or sing it one day? - Perhaps in a few months, perhaps in a few years, perhaps in a few decades, or perhaps daily in your own prayers.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    Deff don't stop learning. you never know...in the future, you might lead another church and be responsible of passing on the hymns...


    by the way. when do we say O Beloved?
  • TITLTITL
    My church sings it after the sixth hour (or is it the ninth hour?) in between the sermon.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=TITL link=topic=11241.msg135829#msg135829 date=1302570200]
    My church sings it after the sixth hour (or is it the ninth hour?) in between the sermon.

    Is this a rite or choice of each church? My church doesn't sing that during our service.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "umm... if we don't sing a specific hymn, and those who know it don't pass it on, i would think that over time, that hymn will be lost."
    nope..........NOTHING that we have now will be lost simply because what we have now and what we all have access to is recorded....not going any where.
  • hany58hany58
    The tarneema of O beloved or wa 7abiby in Arabic is not the best choice to be chanted during Good Friday, I heard that HH Pope Shenouda banned it from being chanted during Good Friday. Also, I don't understand why we should sing taraneem when we have our beautiful coptic hymns instead :)
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    Concerning the English Song "O Beloved" that I hear some churches singing on Great Friday, this is NOT a rite of the church and although I didn't hear HH Pope Shenouda III banning, it doesn't sound surprising that he would ban it because he is big on keeping the original rites of the church. Now this doesn't mean that it can't be sung during a youth meeting for example.

    Concerning your curiosity as to whether to learn hymns or not. I would say to definitely never give up. As someone has said in a previous post, you might get your chance at singing it in a liturgy or you may even sing it a church that you might end up leading up in. So, never give up.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11241.msg135834#msg135834 date=1302576203]
    "umm... if we don't sing a specific hymn, and those who know it don't pass it on, i would think that over time, that hymn will be lost."
    nope..........NOTHING that we have now will be lost simply because what we have now and what we all have access to is recorded....not going any where.


    True, but the less we use them over time they will be so foreign to people that it will be difficult to revive them. If a church hasn't said the hymn "Meghalo" in 50 years, I doubt they will suddenly decide to pick it back up again. The congregation will be resistant as will the priest because both have gotten used to short and simple hymns.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "True, but the less we use them over time they will be so foreign to people that it will be difficult to revive them. If a church hasn't said the hymn "Meghalo" in 50 years, I doubt they will suddenly decide to pick it back up again. The congregation will be resistant as will the priest because both have gotten used to short and simple hymns."

    dude....the recordings we have now are not even 50 yrs old.........let God worry about His praises.

    "Concerning the English Song "O Beloved" that I hear some churches singing on Great Friday, this is NOT a rite of the church and although I didn't hear HH Pope Shenouda III banning, it doesn't sound surprising that he would ban it because he is big on keeping the original rites of the church. Now this doesn't mean that it can't be sung during a youth meeting for example."
    i personally don't like the tarnima.....the Pope did not really ban this tarneema BUT many bishops stress their congregation to NOT say any taranim in liturgical services especially one as important as Good Friday.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11241.msg135838#msg135838 date=1302581946]
    "True, but the less we use them over time they will be so foreign to people that it will be difficult to revive them. If a church hasn't said the hymn "Meghalo" in 50 years, I doubt they will suddenly decide to pick it back up again. The congregation will be resistant as will the priest because both have gotten used to short and simple hymns."

    dude....the recordings we have now are not even 50 yrs old.........let God worry about His praises.


    If you want to be shortsighted that is up to you.

    But as for the second part of your statement . . .huh?!

    Let God worry about His praises! Does Obama go to a dinner in his honor and worry about whether there is enough food for everyone?!

    WE are to worry about the praises of God. Not the One being praised.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    "WE are to worry about the praises of God. Not the One being praised."
    EVERYTHING we do...everything we have and give of is God's.....if He doesn't want us to praise Him than we won't find praises to do so.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11241.msg135840#msg135840 date=1302588329]
    "WE are to worry about the praises of God. Not the One being praised."
    EVERYTHING we do...everything we have and give of is God's.....if He doesn't want us to praise Him than we won't find praises to do so.


    I am not sure what you mean. Of course God wants us to praise Him, it is a gift He has given us to praise Him, and thus we should be careful in using that gift properly and not squandering the blessing we have been given.

    We aren't talking about whether or not to praise God, we are talking about the hymns used in that praising.

    We shouldn't have a nonchalant attitude.

    Should we all start saying, "let God worry about what language we pray in"? Or, "let God worry about the accuracy of the hymns."

    Certainly not! We aren't to adopt this mentality. If there is a problem with the praises we offer to God, we don't twiddle our thumbs and wait for God to miraculously tell us whether we should try to preserve the hymns. 

  • imikhailimikhail
    In my church we have prayed mighalo every week this year and plan to pray it this Friday
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11241.msg135841#msg135841 date=1302589243]
    Certainly not! We aren't to adopt this mentality. If there is a problem with the praises we offer to God, we don't twiddle our thumbs and wait for God to miraculously tell us whether we should try to preserve the hymns. 

    It's not the absolute rule i want to establish but i always ask and hope for the mid-ground. stating that the hymns will be lost, like Oseia afshay lost for exmaple, is far fetched for me to accept.
  • imikhailimikhail
    People who like to skip hymns usually have no appreciation for the hymns period or do not have the spiritual depth to withstand a 25 minutes hymn.

    This can be treated with education about the Coptic music and how the hymns were developed and how it reached us. More importantly to treat the spiritual lukewarmness.


  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11241.msg135867#msg135867 date=1302630188]
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11241.msg135841#msg135841 date=1302589243]
    Certainly not! We aren't to adopt this mentality. If there is a problem with the praises we offer to God, we don't twiddle our thumbs and wait for God to miraculously tell us whether we should try to preserve the hymns. 

    It's not the absolute rule i want to establish but i always ask and hope for the mid-ground. stating that the hymns will be lost, like Oseia afshay lost for exmaple, is far fetched for me to accept.


    I don't think hymns will be lost in that no one will be capable of learning them or the audio will be lost. But if people get used to all the short hymns, over time (many years), it will be impossible to reintroduce a hymn longer than 5 mins. So the hymn won't really be 'lost' per se but it might as well be if no one prays it.

    We should raise the congregation rather than lowering the importance of hymns.
  • athanasius piapostolikos
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135859#msg135859 date=1302609887]
    In my church we have prayed mighalo every week this year and plan to pray it this Friday

    I thought meghalo is only a Saturday and Sunday hymn?
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    [quote author=athanasius piapostolikos link=topic=11241.msg135871#msg135871 date=1302636419]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135859#msg135859 date=1302609887]
    In my church we have prayed mighalo every week this year and plan to pray it this Friday

    I thought meghalo is only a Saturday and Sunday hymn?


    True; however the Monday that begins the Great Lent and the Friday that ends it have the same rite and hymns as the Saturdays and Sundays of the fast.
  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar Mina,
    I agree with unworthy1 in his argument. It is not only the availability of hymns in audio format that preserves them. It's an active process in each and every single church. If you have a problem with the nomination being "lost vs not lost", then you have a point but for me unworthy1 makes a stronger point here.
    Oujai
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Though I do have issues with languages (which may perhaps be an issue if there is a lack of comprehension in the congregation in question) nevertheless it seems to me as a convert that it is important for any congregation, whatever its history, background and composition, to be growing more and more into a fuller and richer experience of the Orthodox life and Tradition.

    My own congregation will be doing some services and prayers we didn't do last year, and will do more next year (God willing) that we are not doing this year. Not because doing lots of things in itself is the same as being spiritual, but because growth and maturity in the faith requires some desire to experience more and more, to have deeper and richer opportunities for worship.

    Wanting to do things at great length just for the sake of it is of little value. But wanting to skip things to finish quickly is even worse. What must surely be best is to offer the best we can, and to want to grow in spiritual maturity so that we can offer more and more to God. But worship must be built on a Godward desire. What pleases Him? How have we been taught to worship Him? What more can we offer in our worship? Can we participate in the hymns we know better? Can we learn and be united in participating in one more hymn at this season, and another in some other season, so that as we grow as a community we also grow together in our experience of the Tradition?
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    I have a sort of related question.

    Which is better when constrained by time for something like tasbeha...skipping hymns or saying things really fast?
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