[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11241.msg135880#msg135880 date=1302651387] I have a sort of related question.
Which is better when constrained by time for something like tasbeha...skipping hymns or saying things really fast?
i personally would rather to have a mid-ground of speed and long hymns being said. ya3ny i really hate when we have to rush through a hoos and than decide to say ari-ho-oo-chasf or aripsalin really slow because people want to. if people want to, then you should have no time constrain because the reason for TIME CONSTRAIN is most of the time because of people.......
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11241.msg135881#msg135881 date=1302652058] [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11241.msg135880#msg135880 date=1302651387] I have a sort of related question.
Which is better when constrained by time for something like tasbeha...skipping hymns or saying things really fast?
i personally would rather to have a mid-ground of speed and long hymns being said. ya3ny i really hate when we have to rush through a hoos and than decide to say ari-ho-oo-chasf or aripsalin really slow because people want to. if people want to, then you should have no time constrain because the reason for TIME CONSTRAIN is most of the time because of people.......
that is exactly my point. in a church I used to go to, we would have tasbeha and the church "closed" at 11:30. tasbeha would be at 10 after our youth classes on friday. but we had to finish before 11:30 or else we would end tasbeha where it was and go home because the guy in charge that night would kick us out because he wants to go home. but we would rush up until third hoos and then sing arihou-chasf. i understand singing long hymns if there is only a long hymn but there is a short way to say it. that problem is arising in the church I go to now. rush through everything and say long hymns and skip a few psalis during lent. it annoys me a lot.
but what about liturgies? say the priest has to go somewhere far right after liturgy or the there is a funeral (which these happen pretty often). would it be better to say 3 hitens and go on with the liturgy or speed the whole pace up to the point where you don't understand what the priest is saying during the Commemoration of the Saints (those who go to my church know what I am talking about ;))
People who like to skip hymns usually have no appreciation for the hymns period or do not have the spiritual depth to withstand a 25 minutes hymn.
This can be treated with education about the Coptic music and how the hymns were developed and how it reached us. More importantly to treat the spiritual lukewarmness.
That is a blanket statement that should not be said. You don't know everyone and shouldn't judge them based on whether they skip hymns or not. Some simply don't know it or have no one to teach them. The church might have just started and all the deacons are young and still learning so skipping is simply a must not a want. Things are never so cut and dry as people like to make them out to be.
I do not want to get into a silly argument. Lack of knowledge of hymns brings forth lack of appreciation for hymns and a lack of knowing the hymns. So, the remedy is to educate.
People who like to skip hymns usually have no appreciation for the hymns period or do not have the spiritual depth to withstand a 25 minutes hymn.
This can be treated with education about the Coptic music and how the hymns were developed and how it reached us. More importantly to treat the spiritual lukewarmness.
That is a blanket statement that should not be said. You don't know everyone and shouldn't judge them based on whether they skip hymns or not. Some simply don't know it or have no one to teach them. The church might have just started and all the deacons are young and still learning so skipping is simply a must not a want. Things are never so cut and dry as people like to make them out to be.
imikhail did say that "people who like to skip hymns USUALLY have no appreciation for the hymns period . . ."
I am not sure that he meant it as a blanket statement about everyone who skips hymns. But he can clarify what he meant for himself.
I do not want to get into a silly argument. Lack of knowledge of hymns brings forth lack of appreciation for hymns and a lack of knowing the hymns. So, the remedy is to educate.
i partially disagree.
First, i disagree with the first statement you put: "People who like to skip hymns usually have no appreciation for the hymns period or do not have the spiritual depth to withstand a 25 minutes hymn." you also brought "knowledge" into this too. the reason i disagree is that your statement depends on the hymns that are skipped and here knowldge plays a role where the proper hymns that must be said are not skippde and others can be.
Also, imikhail....if it's a "silly argument" than why bring it up or even belief in it?!
Long hymns are skipped because of lack of knowledge. This is a fact. That is why it is rare to find a church that prays the long hwc or the long hiteni at the end of the Tasbeha, or the lonh kiahk da'oy inhikanoce and the list goes on. This is the knowledge factor. People simply do not know the hymn so they skip it. This is a fact whether you agree or not.
This is one factor. The other is the spiritual maturity: If people dislike long hymns, it is because they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Why they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Lack of spiritual maturity. That is why most people come to the Church late and they do not come to the matins or the vesper prayers for example.
People usually skip the midnight praises. Why? Lack of understanding as to why the midnight praises are important and that they are part of the liturgy and the spirituality behind it. Also, they lack the knowledge of the hymns and do not appreciate them.
I find it strange that I am explaining this. Should I assume that only the churches I go to happen to have congregations with the characteristics I mentioned?
Thus, one way to remedy these factors is through spiritual growth and knowledge of hymns.
"I find it strange that I am explaining this. Should I assume that only the churches I go to happen to have congregations with the characteristics I mentioned?"
to me it feels that way....but i guess it's maybe because our priests in my church are very nice....medala'enna that we can say many hymns we want to say......and you also have the factor of WANTING to learn the hymn, which not much people get or agree with.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135897#msg135897 date=1302663887] Long hymns are skipped because of lack of knowledge. This is a fact. That is why it is rare to find a church that prays the long hwc or the long hiteni at the end of the Tasbeha, or the lonh kiahk da'oy inhikanoce and the list goes on. This is the knowledge factor. People simply do not know the hymn so they skip it. This is a fact whether you agree or not.
This is one factor. The other is the spiritual maturity: If people dislike long hymns, it is because they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Why they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Lack of spiritual maturity. That is why most people come to the Church late and they do not come to the matins or the vesper prayers for example.
People usually skip the midnight praises. Why? Lack of understanding why the midnight praises are important and that they are part of the liturgy and the spirituality behind it. Also, they lack the knowledge of the hymns and do not appreciate them.
I find it strange that I am explaining this. Should I assume that only the churches I go to happen to have congregations with the characteristics I mentioned?
Thus, one way to remedy these factors is through spiritual growth and knowledge of hymns.
Thanks.
When you say "lack of knowledge" - do you mean knowledge of how to literally pray the hymn (hazzat), or knowledge of the meaning behind the hymn?
Secondly, spiritual maturity is not a matter of being able to stay long hours at church. I have been to the monasteries many times to find that they frequently skip hymns and say the prayers extremely fast.
Are they lacking knowledge or spiritual maturity? I think not. Rather, they are so spiritually mature that whether they pray a 20 minute hymn or a 2 minute hymn they can praise God equally as well and benefit from both hymns. This is a higher level of spirituality.
That said, I do believe that to get to that level of spirituality you have to be able to pray long hymns first and find joy in that.
When you say "lack of knowledge" - do you mean knowledge of how to literally pray the hymn (hazzat), or knowledge of the meaning behind the hymn?
Both. However, people tend to sustain the long hymns if they are able to pray along.
I have been to the monasteries many times to find that they frequently skip hymns and say the prayers extremely fast.
Are they lacking knowledge or spiritual maturity? I think not. Rather, they are so spiritually mature that whether they pray a 20 minute hymn or a 2 minute hymn they can praise God equally as well and benefit from both hymns. This is a higher level of spirituality.
I beg to differ.
Long hymns were put for a reason and that is to praise God. Praises is the highest form of prayer, it is the rank of the angels. Praying long hymns provides a person to be with the Lord, meditate on Him, enjoy Him more. Our Lord Jesus admonished St Peter for his inability to focus on prayer at Gasthemane.
What more joy there is than to be with the Lord; praising Him and enjoying Him. Praying fast or skipping hymns says to the Lord:"Sorry, Lord, I have something more important than You. So, I am just gonna say this hymn quickly. At least I said it because I need to leave You."
Like I said, the ability to enjoy praying long hymns is a higher form of praise than not being able to - that is obvious.
But once you can do that, of course it would be great to praise God longer, but if you can offer your heart to God with the same amount of depth with a short hymn it is acceptable in the eyes of God.
He will not tell us: "You did not pray the long hymn! You mustn't love Me." He will search our hearts as we offer praise and know whether we are truly praising Him or not.
"So let me ask you minatasgeel Is the same number of people who attend the regular liturgy on Sunday also attend the midnight praises, Vesper and Matins prayers?"
of course not......many of those people have children and full families to worry about. others have things to do that they can come partially for sometime and leave...the idea is, they have their own reasons....which many people tend to ignore when speaking so zealously about hymns, church, services...etc.....many things that can be limited by one's life; those people never consider others. sometimes their belief is so strong that it can be likened to the traditions of the Jews......doing things consistently. the Law was created for man to connect to God and not the other way around.
We are not here talking about the Law or the Jews. We are talking about praising God. If more people know the hymns musically and spiritually, the more they will enjoy being on the church.
Mina, I'm sorry, I guess you're missing the point. Unworthy1 is also missing it when he's comparing congregations to monasteries. The point being it's the deacon's job to educate and make people love Coptic hymns for reasons imikhail and Unworthy1 mentioned before. I saw families who went to church early because their children were so connected to matins prayers, and others who let their children sleep over at the church so the attend tasbeha and the Liturgy in the morning. Why? Because one deacon took that role upon himself to teach them and stay with them all the time. Oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11241.msg135909#msg135909 date=1302669352] Mina, I'm sorry, I guess you're missing the point. Unworthy1 is also missing it when he's comparing congregations to monasteries. The point being it's the deacon's job to educate and make people love Coptic hymns for reasons imikhail and Unworthy1 mentioned before. I saw families who went to church early because their children were so connected to matins prayers, and others who let their children sleep over at the church so the attend tasbeha and the Liturgy in the morning. Why? Because one deacon took that role upon himself to teach them and stay with them all the time. Oujai
I don't think I ever said that tasbeha, matins, vespers are somehow not important. I also did not say that long hymns are not essential. My point is that if someone cannot go to any of those services or a church cannot say all the long hymns it does not necessarily mean that they are spiritually immature or lack knowledge. There can be many other reasons.
I am not sure how the role of the deacon got into this conversation?
Long hymns are a means to gaining spiritual maturity. I will repeat again! One must be able to pray long hymns with true sincerity and love toward God to become spiritually mature. If you cannot stand a liturgy that is longer than 2 hrs you are lacking. BUT once you reach this level, although you may want to pray long hymns all the time, you can fully praise God in a short hymn.
ophadece, please explain why comparing the way monks in the monastery praise God in the liturgy and tasbeha to the congregation is "missing it"
DEar Unworthy1, The role of the deacon is to educate, and part of that is to explain to people why we do the things that we do and raise them to another level. I'm actually talking to myself here.... With regards the monks, those people have other duties. They praise God all the time, and not only in liturgical prayers, unlike some people in the world. They don't have to sing long hymns because they already have their special added prayers. They don't have educational duties because all of them are supposed to be on the same level. That's why I said you were missing the point. I wouldn't be worried if monks don't sing meghalo every Saturday, or long samoudi each and every night, but I'd be worried if we don't sing it every once in a while and this actually comes back to your point of saying hymns so that we don't lose them... Oujai
I don't think we are really disagreeing on anything. I have already stated that long hymns are very important and should be preserved.
However, I do believe we should be praising God outside of church services as the monks do. Their personal prayers do not give them a right to skip things that are necessary. But they are not neglecting something that is necessary. They do not have to say long hymns to show God they love Him, they have given Him their lives and hearts. We are called to do the same. He will ask us whether we lived for Him, not whether we prayed the hymns in a long or fast way.
My only point of disagreement was over the statement by imikhail that when we don't pray long hymns it is because of a lack of knowledge or spiritual immaturity. That is why I brought up the case of monks in the monastery.
According to that reasoning every tasbeha should be 3 hours and people should spend the night and than pray a 4 hour liturgy. Or else they are shirking God of what is owed to Him. Do you think that is the case?
I see your point very clearly now, and with regards to your last question I should: well, ideally, yes. What I should like, then yes again. What is absolutely necessary, then I don't think so. I'm only talking about myself here, attending tasbeha every couple of weeks that lasts 2 hours (hoping I can tolerate longer) and a weekly liturgy lasting 2.5 hours hoping I can tolerate more as well. That's only me, someone who should work on their spiritual life, pray more of the ajbeya and read more of the Holy Bible. Along the lines that you mentioned already FR. Dawood Lam'y once said that pope Cyril's liturgy was not a very long one anyway Oujai
I have a follow up question. No one here has mentioned anything about preference. In my church, we never say Meghalo because the priests simply don't like it. They think it is unnecessary. They have an obligation to the entire congregation to make sure people don't leave the church because of these long hymns (and some have). And they find, as a general rule of thumb, people gain more spiritual depth from sermons and Bible meetings than hymns. Again, it's the people's preference to gain spirituality from sermons, not hymns. It is also the priests' preference that they "allow" hymns that the general population will gain from, not the handful of deacons only (in most cases, it's just me).
We can't blame the priests for their preference. We can't say the priests are spiritually immmature. And from what I gather, it's not really a time constraint issue as much as it is a preference issue (preference from the "advanced" deacons who want to say every long hymn make the service 3 times longer, preference from the "lower level" deacons who don't want to say long hymns because they don't know it or can't find the time to learn it, preference from the parents who can't keep their kids quiet for a service 3 times longer, preference from the general population who can't relate to hymns but can spiritually grow from sermons, and preference from the priests who like certain hymns in balance with a Bible life, a sermon based spiritual life, a personal prayer life, a Sunday School life, and a service life - with no priority of one over the other).
Personally, it's my preference to say many new hymns every week. To me, this is how the liturgy and the services were designed. I also think preferences are heavily based on tolerance and discipline. People can't enjoy what they can't tolerate because they were never disciplined enough to endure longer services. But I do find myself lacking in other forms of services when I focus so heavily on hymns alone. Abouna once told me "The person who says Je nai nan by moaning and groaning will find more favor with God than the person who spent 16 hours in tasbeha." He does not mean to say the person who lives a tasbeha life is not as important as the person who repents in a short moment. What he is saying is that we often focus on things (good, spiritual things) that we think are causing spiritual growth but they may in fact hinder repentance and spiritual growth. Again, the priest's comment reflects his preference for a diversified service life, not a specific hymns-only service life.
I personally think time contraints weigh more than preferences. If a church is limited on time, for whatever reason (baptism, long sermon, started late..etc), then preferences wouldn't really matter, because they have to finish within a period of time.
You mentioned the congregation leaving due to lengthy hymns; I don't see that as a problem in my church, because I think their mentality is "the deacons can sing whatever long melismatic hymns they want, but church ends at 11:30, and that's when I'm leaving, or else we have a problem." So usually if the deacons decide to sing Meghalo, then Abouna has to compensate for it by rushing through the Liturgy, or cutting the sermon short.
Preference is definitely important, but within time constraints.
TITL, I've argued that to Abouna before. He told me "I can not make the sermon shorter or asks any other priest to rush the liturgy." It's obvious from this statement that Abouna's preference is always a sermon, bible-based spiritual experience is too important to modify for hymns.
I also argued the time issue with him. Let me say whatever melismatic hymn we can and I'll have the Gospel started on 10:25. He said ok. Then I found each priest starts the liturgy at a different time (sometimes 20-25 minutes past 9:00. I also found other priests insisting on reading the Gospel at 9:15 and extending their sermon. I also find no matter what time a person comes or leaves, and even when we're not late, I always get a comment, "Why did you sing that hymn. You made the liturgy finish late." So in my experience the time issue is a mask for the preference issue.
It's hard to make a simple generalization for all the churches, because each priest, congregation, and area varies. If the priest is strong on preferences, then the congregation will get used to it and start to think more of it. If the priest usually cooperates with the deacons and works towards a specific time, then the congregation will get used to that, and the type/length of hymns will not be as important, as long as they finish when planned.
I think the size of the church has a large impact with preference vs. time constraint. It seems that the larger churches are big on preferences while the smaller ones are always looking to get done at a certain time, regardless of the hymns/sermon. Of course, the priest plays a huge role as well, because ultimately he gets the last word in everything, and whatever rules he establishes, the congregation will also adapt to. Hence, the reason people are always asking you why you sang a certain hymn. It's because their priest got them used to preference over time. But in a church like mine, I guess the complaints would be directed to the priest for not compensating with the lengthy hymns.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11241.msg135918#msg135918 date=1302699243] What are your thoughts?
that is what i brought up in my last before....but people like not to think about it. it's like, yeah, we don't care about the people but make sure we keep the hymns alive.
It is the job of the priest to make his congregation spiritually. If the priest does not like hymns from the start, then the congregation won't like. This is a HUGE problem.
At that point I won't blame the congregation but I will put the burden on the priest.
Unfortunately, this is a general trend that I see in our beloved Church. The fast rhythm of life is affecting the Church and instead of withstanding the pressures of life we are giving in.
This goes back to my earlier point is that people need to first grow spiritually and grow in knowledge for hymns and the rituals of the Church.
So is it the burden of the priest then to make liturgies longer when someone may have extenuating circumstances? What if many people in his congregation have two jobs just to feed their family? They don't always have time to stay for a long liturgy or service in any case for that matter. Should he be reprimanded for that? Is God going to say you couldn't give me a few hours so that you could work so your family doesn't go hungry? Things aren't cut and dry. Life happens and sometimes we do have obligations that must be taken care of. As long as this person at least made an effort to come and in fact took time out of which he may not have had we can't expect abouna to do 5 hour liturgies and when people don't show up call them lazy, uneducated and spiritually immature.
Then, you have not understood what I wrote. I never suggested to have a 5 hour liturgies.
I do not think it is a choice between skipping hymns and having a 5 hour liturgy. For example the choice of praying Mighalo or skipping it will not extend a liturgy from 2.5 hrs to 5 hrs.
Also, praying mighalo will not deprive people from earning a living to feed their families.
Also, praying mighalo will not deprive people from earning a living to feed their families.
looool I know seriously, what was that JY? :P
I didn't seem to quite understand the less-fortunate scenario either regarding extended services due to hymns. I don't think the extra half hour-hour would make a difference with people's jobs, unless they work on Sundays (which in that case, why attend in the first place and risk being late? I would just attend an earlier Liturgy during the week, or adjust my hours to a once a month Liturgy if circumstances are really bad). What brought Meghalo into all this? lool
Comments
I have a sort of related question.
Which is better when constrained by time for something like tasbeha...skipping hymns or saying things really fast?
i personally would rather to have a mid-ground of speed and long hymns being said. ya3ny i really hate when we have to rush through a hoos and than decide to say ari-ho-oo-chasf or aripsalin really slow because people want to. if people want to, then you should have no time constrain because the reason for TIME CONSTRAIN is most of the time because of people.......
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11241.msg135880#msg135880 date=1302651387]
I have a sort of related question.
Which is better when constrained by time for something like tasbeha...skipping hymns or saying things really fast?
i personally would rather to have a mid-ground of speed and long hymns being said. ya3ny i really hate when we have to rush through a hoos and than decide to say ari-ho-oo-chasf or aripsalin really slow because people want to. if people want to, then you should have no time constrain because the reason for TIME CONSTRAIN is most of the time because of people.......
that is exactly my point. in a church I used to go to, we would have tasbeha and the church "closed" at 11:30. tasbeha would be at 10 after our youth classes on friday. but we had to finish before 11:30 or else we would end tasbeha where it was and go home because the guy in charge that night would kick us out because he wants to go home. but we would rush up until third hoos and then sing arihou-chasf. i understand singing long hymns if there is only a long hymn but there is a short way to say it. that problem is arising in the church I go to now. rush through everything and say long hymns and skip a few psalis during lent. it annoys me a lot.
but what about liturgies? say the priest has to go somewhere far right after liturgy or the there is a funeral (which these happen pretty often). would it be better to say 3 hitens and go on with the liturgy or speed the whole pace up to the point where you don't understand what the priest is saying during the Commemoration of the Saints (those who go to my church know what I am talking about ;))
I do not want to get into a silly argument. Lack of knowledge of hymns brings forth lack of appreciation for hymns and a lack of knowing the hymns. So, the remedy is to educate.
Imikhail, That is a blanket statement that should not be said. You don't know everyone and shouldn't judge them based on whether they skip hymns or not. Some simply don't know it or have no one to teach them. The church might have just started and all the deacons are young and still learning so skipping is simply a must not a want. Things are never so cut and dry as people like to make them out to be.
imikhail did say that "people who like to skip hymns USUALLY have no appreciation for the hymns period . . ."
I am not sure that he meant it as a blanket statement about everyone who skips hymns. But he can clarify what he meant for himself.
jdeacon,
I do not want to get into a silly argument. Lack of knowledge of hymns brings forth lack of appreciation for hymns and a lack of knowing the hymns. So, the remedy is to educate.
i partially disagree.
First, i disagree with the first statement you put: "People who like to skip hymns usually have no appreciation for the hymns period or do not have the spiritual depth to withstand a 25 minutes hymn."
you also brought "knowledge" into this too. the reason i disagree is that your statement depends on the hymns that are skipped and here knowldge plays a role where the proper hymns that must be said are not skippde and others can be.
Also, imikhail....if it's a "silly argument" than why bring it up or even belief in it?!
This is one factor. The other is the spiritual maturity: If people dislike long hymns, it is because they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Why they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Lack of spiritual maturity. That is why most people come to the Church late and they do not come to the matins or the vesper prayers for example.
People usually skip the midnight praises. Why? Lack of understanding as to why the midnight praises are important and that they are part of the liturgy and the spirituality behind it. Also, they lack the knowledge of the hymns and do not appreciate them.
I find it strange that I am explaining this. Should I assume that only the churches I go to happen to have congregations with the characteristics I mentioned?
Thus, one way to remedy these factors is through spiritual growth and knowledge of hymns.
Thanks.
to me it feels that way....but i guess it's maybe because our priests in my church are very nice....medala'enna that we can say many hymns we want to say......and you also have the factor of WANTING to learn the hymn, which not much people get or agree with.
Is the same number of people who attend the regular liturgy on Sunday also attend the midnight praises, Vesper and Matins prayers?
Thanks.
Long hymns are skipped because of lack of knowledge. This is a fact. That is why it is rare to find a church that prays the long hwc or the long hiteni at the end of the Tasbeha, or the lonh kiahk da'oy inhikanoce and the list goes on. This is the knowledge factor. People simply do not know the hymn so they skip it. This is a fact whether you agree or not.
This is one factor. The other is the spiritual maturity: If people dislike long hymns, it is because they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Why they do not want to spend long hours at the Church? Lack of spiritual maturity. That is why most people come to the Church late and they do not come to the matins or the vesper prayers for example.
People usually skip the midnight praises. Why? Lack of understanding why the midnight praises are important and that they are part of the liturgy and the spirituality behind it. Also, they lack the knowledge of the hymns and do not appreciate them.
I find it strange that I am explaining this. Should I assume that only the churches I go to happen to have congregations with the characteristics I mentioned?
Thus, one way to remedy these factors is through spiritual growth and knowledge of hymns.
Thanks.
When you say "lack of knowledge" - do you mean knowledge of how to literally pray the hymn (hazzat), or knowledge of the meaning behind the hymn?
Secondly, spiritual maturity is not a matter of being able to stay long hours at church. I have been to the monasteries many times to find that they frequently skip hymns and say the prayers extremely fast.
Are they lacking knowledge or spiritual maturity? I think not. Rather, they are so spiritually mature that whether they pray a 20 minute hymn or a 2 minute hymn they can praise God equally as well and benefit from both hymns. This is a higher level of spirituality.
That said, I do believe that to get to that level of spirituality you have to be able to pray long hymns first and find joy in that.
Long hymns were put for a reason and that is to praise God. Praises is the highest form of prayer, it is the rank of the angels. Praying long hymns provides a person to be with the Lord, meditate on Him, enjoy Him more. Our Lord Jesus admonished St Peter for his inability to focus on prayer at Gasthemane.
What more joy there is than to be with the Lord; praising Him and enjoying Him. Praying fast or skipping hymns says to the Lord:"Sorry, Lord, I have something more important than You. So, I am just gonna say this hymn quickly. At least I said it because I need to leave You."
Thanks.
But once you can do that, of course it would be great to praise God longer, but if you can offer your heart to God with the same amount of depth with a short hymn it is acceptable in the eyes of God.
He will not tell us: "You did not pray the long hymn! You mustn't love Me." He will search our hearts as we offer praise and know whether we are truly praising Him or not.
Is the same number of people who attend the regular liturgy on Sunday also attend the midnight praises, Vesper and Matins prayers?"
of course not......many of those people have children and full families to worry about. others have things to do that they can come partially for sometime and leave...the idea is, they have their own reasons....which many people tend to ignore when speaking so zealously about hymns, church, services...etc.....many things that can be limited by one's life; those people never consider others. sometimes their belief is so strong that it can be likened to the traditions of the Jews......doing things consistently. the Law was created for man to connect to God and not the other way around.
We are not here talking about the Law or the Jews. We are talking about praising God. If more people know the hymns musically and spiritually, the more they will enjoy being on the church.
Thanks.
I'm sorry, I guess you're missing the point. Unworthy1 is also missing it when he's comparing congregations to monasteries. The point being it's the deacon's job to educate and make people love Coptic hymns for reasons imikhail and Unworthy1 mentioned before. I saw families who went to church early because their children were so connected to matins prayers, and others who let their children sleep over at the church so the attend tasbeha and the Liturgy in the morning. Why? Because one deacon took that role upon himself to teach them and stay with them all the time. Oujai
Mina,
I'm sorry, I guess you're missing the point. Unworthy1 is also missing it when he's comparing congregations to monasteries. The point being it's the deacon's job to educate and make people love Coptic hymns for reasons imikhail and Unworthy1 mentioned before. I saw families who went to church early because their children were so connected to matins prayers, and others who let their children sleep over at the church so the attend tasbeha and the Liturgy in the morning. Why? Because one deacon took that role upon himself to teach them and stay with them all the time. Oujai
I don't think I ever said that tasbeha, matins, vespers are somehow not important. I also did not say that long hymns are not essential. My point is that if someone cannot go to any of those services or a church cannot say all the long hymns it does not necessarily mean that they are spiritually immature or lack knowledge. There can be many other reasons.
I am not sure how the role of the deacon got into this conversation?
Long hymns are a means to gaining spiritual maturity. I will repeat again! One must be able to pray long hymns with true sincerity and love toward God to become spiritually mature. If you cannot stand a liturgy that is longer than 2 hrs you are lacking. BUT once you reach this level, although you may want to pray long hymns all the time, you can fully praise God in a short hymn.
ophadece, please explain why comparing the way monks in the monastery praise God in the liturgy and tasbeha to the congregation is "missing it"
The role of the deacon is to educate, and part of that is to explain to people why we do the things that we do and raise them to another level. I'm actually talking to myself here....
With regards the monks, those people have other duties. They praise God all the time, and not only in liturgical prayers, unlike some people in the world. They don't have to sing long hymns because they already have their special added prayers. They don't have educational duties because all of them are supposed to be on the same level. That's why I said you were missing the point. I wouldn't be worried if monks don't sing meghalo every Saturday, or long samoudi each and every night, but I'd be worried if we don't sing it every once in a while and this actually comes back to your point of saying hymns so that we don't lose them...
Oujai
However, I do believe we should be praising God outside of church services as the monks do. Their personal prayers do not give them a right to skip things that are necessary. But they are not neglecting something that is necessary. They do not have to say long hymns to show God they love Him, they have given Him their lives and hearts. We are called to do the same. He will ask us whether we lived for Him, not whether we prayed the hymns in a long or fast way.
My only point of disagreement was over the statement by imikhail that when we don't pray long hymns it is because of a lack of knowledge or spiritual immaturity. That is why I brought up the case of monks in the monastery.
According to that reasoning every tasbeha should be 3 hours and people should spend the night and than pray a 4 hour liturgy. Or else they are shirking God of what is owed to Him. Do you think that is the case?
Along the lines that you mentioned already FR. Dawood Lam'y once said that pope Cyril's liturgy was not a very long one anyway
Oujai
We can't blame the priests for their preference. We can't say the priests are spiritually immmature. And from what I gather, it's not really a time constraint issue as much as it is a preference issue (preference from the "advanced" deacons who want to say every long hymn make the service 3 times longer, preference from the "lower level" deacons who don't want to say long hymns because they don't know it or can't find the time to learn it, preference from the parents who can't keep their kids quiet for a service 3 times longer, preference from the general population who can't relate to hymns but can spiritually grow from sermons, and preference from the priests who like certain hymns in balance with a Bible life, a sermon based spiritual life, a personal prayer life, a Sunday School life, and a service life - with no priority of one over the other).
Personally, it's my preference to say many new hymns every week. To me, this is how the liturgy and the services were designed. I also think preferences are heavily based on tolerance and discipline. People can't enjoy what they can't tolerate because they were never disciplined enough to endure longer services. But I do find myself lacking in other forms of services when I focus so heavily on hymns alone. Abouna once told me "The person who says Je nai nan by moaning and groaning will find more favor with God than the person who spent 16 hours in tasbeha." He does not mean to say the person who lives a tasbeha life is not as important as the person who repents in a short moment. What he is saying is that we often focus on things (good, spiritual things) that we think are causing spiritual growth but they may in fact hinder repentance and spiritual growth. Again, the priest's comment reflects his preference for a diversified service life, not a specific hymns-only service life.
What are your thoughts?
George
You mentioned the congregation leaving due to lengthy hymns; I don't see that as a problem in my church, because I think their mentality is "the deacons can sing whatever long melismatic hymns they want, but church ends at 11:30, and that's when I'm leaving, or else we have a problem." So usually if the deacons decide to sing Meghalo, then Abouna has to compensate for it by rushing through the Liturgy, or cutting the sermon short.
Preference is definitely important, but within time constraints.
I also argued the time issue with him. Let me say whatever melismatic hymn we can and I'll have the Gospel started on 10:25. He said ok. Then I found each priest starts the liturgy at a different time (sometimes 20-25 minutes past 9:00. I also found other priests insisting on reading the Gospel at 9:15 and extending their sermon. I also find no matter what time a person comes or leaves, and even when we're not late, I always get a comment, "Why did you sing that hymn. You made the liturgy finish late." So in my experience the time issue is a mask for the preference issue.
George
I think the size of the church has a large impact with preference vs. time constraint. It seems that the larger churches are big on preferences while the smaller ones are always looking to get done at a certain time, regardless of the hymns/sermon.
Of course, the priest plays a huge role as well, because ultimately he gets the last word in everything, and whatever rules he establishes, the congregation will also adapt to. Hence, the reason people are always asking you why you sang a certain hymn. It's because their priest got them used to preference over time. But in a church like mine, I guess the complaints would be directed to the priest for not compensating with the lengthy hymns.
Do you go to a large church?
What are your thoughts?
that is what i brought up in my last before....but people like not to think about it. it's like, yeah, we don't care about the people but make sure we keep the hymns alive.
At that point I won't blame the congregation but I will put the burden on the priest.
Unfortunately, this is a general trend that I see in our beloved Church. The fast rhythm of life is affecting the Church and instead of withstanding the pressures of life we are giving in.
This goes back to my earlier point is that people need to first grow spiritually and grow in knowledge for hymns and the rituals of the Church.
Read my comments closely before you argue. I said the general trend is to shorten the prayer time and to yield to the pressures of life.
Thanks.
I do not think it is a choice between skipping hymns and having a 5 hour liturgy. For example the choice of praying Mighalo or skipping it will not extend a liturgy from 2.5 hrs to 5 hrs.
Also, praying mighalo will not deprive people from earning a living to feed their families.
I didn't seem to quite understand the less-fortunate scenario either regarding extended services due to hymns. I don't think the extra half hour-hour would make a difference with people's jobs, unless they work on Sundays (which in that case, why attend in the first place and risk being late? I would just attend an earlier Liturgy during the week, or adjust my hours to a once a month Liturgy if circumstances are really bad). What brought Meghalo into all this? lool