You said that Arabic also is being read and I am assuming you do not understand Arabic. So the problem is you .. you do not know either Coptic or Arabic ;D
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11285.msg136337#msg136337 date=1303244989] Why are you picking on Coptic?
You said that Arabic also is being read and I am assuming you do not understand Arabic. So the problem is you .. you do not know either Coptic or Arabic ;D
Ahh! Now you raise the question I was dying SOMEONE to ask.
hehehe
The question that will lead me out of the Coptic Church.
I was debating leaving a long time ago because I felt that it was a pre-requisite to speak arabic in order to benefit anything in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I AM NOT IN EGYPT TO HAVE TO SPEAK ARABIC!!!
I am in EUROPE!!! I SPEAK and am fluent in 2 European languages and I still cannot enjoy the liturgy in ANY OF THEM!!!!
If i was living in Egypt - OK.. fine, i'd learn Arabic.
But now the Coptic Orthodox Church is asking me to learn Arabic in order to practice my faith.
It does, Zoxsasi. It is Bible and liturgical book translations that often lag behind the spread of the faith.
Since you are fluent in the languages that many of your congregation are likely not fluent in, perhaps you can do something to help change this situation for the better? (That is to say, for the integration of the Coptic Church in Belgium, and of Belgium into the Coptic Church)
If I love the Congregation in my Church, and i think they are all nice people , yet im deeply offended by their apathy to speak Flemish or French, what about the locals? What about the Belgians? What happens when they come in our Church? How do you think they feel?
How do you think they feel when they see this apathy towards their national identity outside of the Church by Coptic Christians? They will become more racist.
I don't think God wants that.
I think God wants us to evangelise the local indigenous populations outside Egypt.
This is foolishness PAR EXCELLENCE!! We have no rights to evangelise our faith in Egypt. We cannot preach our faith in Egypt. The Copts come overseas and what do they do?? They just behave as if they are in Egypt. They do not evangelise their faith at all. I think they will be judged on this.
its a sin.
"We preach your death O Lord, and Your Holy Resurrection and Ascension, we acknowledge"
Who do they preach it to? To people who already are saved??
They will be judged on what they have done in these lands of immigration.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I disagree with you Zoxsasi. It gives more time for us to meditate on the Gospel while also preserving Coptic. It is a perfect balance of the two. Now if it was just being read in Coptic, then we might have an issue (although you could always read the translation from the Pascha book).
We should take the same attitude towards the long psalms. In the time during the reading of the psalm you could meditate on the psalm, reread the prophecies and come to understand those in the relation to the Gospel.
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=11285.msg136345#msg136345 date=1303246375] I haven't read the whole thread, but I disagree with you Zoxsasi. It gives more time for us to meditate on the Gospel while also preserving Coptic. It is a perfect balance of the two. Now if it was just being read in Coptic, then we might have an issue (although you could always read the translation from the Pascha book).
We should take the same attitude towards the long psalms. In the time during the reading of the psalm you could meditate on the psalm, reread the prophecies and come to understand those in the relation to the Gospel.
Zoxsasi, I really do admire your zeal to evangelize the Belgian natives. Maybe you can do that, if you do not see enough being done by your fellow Copts? I know that the Orthodox churches are often accused of not having a missionary spirit (I don't know how true that actually is, but I've heard it quite a few times), but you clearly seem to have such a drive. It is God-given! Cultures are often slow to adapt, and maybe it will take a few generations before the fear engendered in the Coptic people about preaching the gospel openly completely dissipates. But there will always be some who are the first to step out and try to bring the faith to the people, wherever they may be. Maybe this is your calling? Maybe seeing you do so would also inspire others to do the same in whatever way they can?
Why is it cruel. If it is also being done in the native language, then it just gives us extra time to meditate. You're ignoring the fact the psalms even when sung in English take about 10 minutes each. I wish it was that we are asking for the services to be longer, rather than shorter. Our Priest just gave a sermon about this 2 weeks ago, after we had a 4 1/2 hour liturgy on a Friday (Liturgy of St. Cyril) . He told us that he felt like he was going fast too. To be honest I got kind of tired of it, (to show how Godly I really am). I pray that I may quickly grow out of this.
OK. Look, I go to Church to pray in the paschal prayers.
EVERYTHING is in Arabic and Coptic. There are no books for French/Flemish Nothing. Its very long indeed. They recite the Bible in Coptic. I've never seen this done in any other Church. So, its cruel because RATHER than at the very least say the Bible in French because you know that there are NO books in French for people to follow - what do you do?? You go and read it in Coptic.
Its like this. I'm a guest in your house and I am starving to death. I have had nothing to eat. YOU invite me for dinner.
Whilst im sitting down at the table, you bring over your pet dog and feed him BEAUTIFUL food in front of me: Yoghurt with cucumber and mint, Vine leaves, fatta, Mahshee, rice, beef, pork, falafel, foule - and the dog is not eating it. Its just being wasted. The dog isn't interested in eating any of that...
Im watching this and starving whilst seeing the food wasted on this dog.
You tell me: ok.. one second, it won't be long until the food I've prepared for you is ready.
I wait and I'd have been SO happy with the food you are giving to your dog. But instead, I find myself just watching your dog eat really nice food, who isn't really interested in eating this food.
Its cruel. Why?? Who are you reading the Bible in Coptic For???? WHo is benefitting??? The ONLY one benefitting is the Coptic Tradition. This is BELGIUM!!! ITS NOT EGYPT!! AT the very least READ something for those who cannot read arabic or understand it!!!!! ANYTHING!!
3 HOURS of watching other people pray in a language that no one understands (Coptic) - whilst those who are hungry and starving for this food just watch.
Yes, I contemplate in Church... i contemplate what an idiot i am for stepping my foot inside. What did I gain??
You read the Bible in Coptic and YOU benefit because you can contemplate on the previous bible readings, or the next one.. LUCKY YOU!! We have NO BOOKS to even contemplate on anything.
And honestly speaking, when I see this, the ONLY impression I get is what a bunch of fanatics! They can pray in Coptic - its OK.. pray in 10 different languages, so long as you've at least prayed in the language of those who are present in the Church.
Sure.. FEED THE DOG, but not before you've fed your guests!!!!
You all make it out as if its MY FAULT that I don't read/speak Arabic. THIS IS NOT EGYPT!!! WHAT IS THIS!!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!!?? WHY IS IT MY FAULT THAT IM EUROPEAN?? WHY AM I BEING PUNISHED FOR BEING NON EGYPTIAN IN A COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH!!!!
SO THE ONLY SOLUTION IS FOR ME TO LEARN ARABIC!!!!!!!!!!
Does his holiness want us to apply for an Egyptian passport also??
Zosasi, I think that many of the responses to you by some of the members have been misdirected. The subject of this thread, reading the bible in coptic, is not the problem you face. You have a much more severe problem at your church from what you are describing. Not having any readings in the host country's language is a problem, but greater than that is that there are no paschal books in the language.
These are problems not shared by many of the posters here, so I apologise to you on their behalf. Are there any posters on here that live in france or canada, that know of any paschal books in french? How is your English? Do you feel as if you could use the paschal book present on this site?
You should make another thread outlining this problem, and I am sure that God through the posters on tasbeha.org will help find a solution. Maybe a translation exists or maybe people are able to create one when they join together. This is the spirit of fellowship that we should have with one another when discussing issues on this site.
It should not be difficult to translate the Pascha Book into many European languages. The Old Testament readings, and the Gospels are all readily available in European language translation. Most of the other parts of the Pascha Hours are fixed and should take little time to translate. This leaves just the Commentaries and Homilies.
It should surely be possible in every European Church to have the Scripture Readings in the local languages, even with Coptic and Arabic, since the Bible already has been translated many times into every European language.
It is not reasonable to expect the Copts in any particular country to immediately have all the services in any language, but it would take no effort at all to read the Scriptures during Pascha Week in the local languages, nor even to translate some of the fixed parts.
Indeed in the case of the French language I would imagine that the French Coptic Orthodox Church, and the French speaking Canadian Copts, as well as local Copts in Belgium, should already have available most of the usual rites in French. My own spoken French is not great but I bet even I could make a reasonable translation of the static parts of Pascha Week, and there are others, even here on tasbeha.org, who are fluent in English and French, or Arabic and French.
I agree 100% Zoxsasi. There is no reason to not be reading in the native language and still be reading in Coptic. I wasn't really clear on your situation, before. Sorry!
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=11285.msg136406#msg136406 date=1303334515] I agree 100% Zoxsasi. There is no reason to not be reading in the native language and still be reading in Coptic. I wasn't really clear on your situation, before. Sorry!
if you wanna consider reasoning that THERE IS NO REASON to stop a tradition that has been going on for that long since it doesn't effect the reading of the Bible in the native language......we are arguing on a couple of mins of reading coptic....REALLY?! there is nothing else in the world and during holy week for us to talk about?!!!
I don't think anyone is arguing against the reading of the Pascha scriptures in Coptic where it has value.
The issue Zoxasi has raised is that the scriptures are being read only in Coptic and Arabic so that no-one who speaks only French or Flemish can understand anything of what is being said, and no translations into French or Flemish are being provided by his congregation.
If even the notices of the readings are only in Coptic and Arabic then someone who does not understand either language cannot even work out what the passages are to be able to read in a French or Flemish Bible.
On this point I agree with Zoxasi, it does not take much to make French and Flemish speakers welcome. Some of the Our Fathers could also be prayed in French and Flemish perhaps. Otherwise as a French speaker he would have to stand there with no understanding of anything that was taking place.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=11285.msg136411#msg136411 date=1303339412] Zoxasi, for ur information, there's pascha books in both French and Dutch (=Flemish).
I will find these translations and print them out for everyone. But next year.
Comments
You said that Arabic also is being read and I am assuming you do not understand Arabic. So the problem is you .. you do not know either Coptic or Arabic ;D
Why are you picking on Coptic?
You said that Arabic also is being read and I am assuming you do not understand Arabic. So the problem is you .. you do not know either Coptic or Arabic ;D
Ahh! Now you raise the question I was dying SOMEONE to ask.
hehehe
The question that will lead me out of the Coptic Church.
I was debating leaving a long time ago because I felt that it was a pre-requisite to speak arabic in order to benefit anything in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I AM NOT IN EGYPT TO HAVE TO SPEAK ARABIC!!!
I am in EUROPE!!! I SPEAK and am fluent in 2 European languages and I still cannot enjoy the liturgy in ANY OF THEM!!!!
If i was living in Egypt - OK.. fine, i'd learn Arabic.
But now the Coptic Orthodox Church is asking me to learn Arabic in order to practice my faith.
Do you have ANY idea how insulting this is?????
I thought our faith transcended language!!!
Since you are fluent in the languages that many of your congregation are likely not fluent in, perhaps you can do something to help change this situation for the better? (That is to say, for the integration of the Coptic Church in Belgium, and of Belgium into the Coptic Church)
How do you think they feel when they see this apathy towards their national identity outside of the Church by Coptic Christians? They will become more racist.
I don't think God wants that.
I think God wants us to evangelise the local indigenous populations outside Egypt.
This is foolishness PAR EXCELLENCE!! We have no rights to evangelise our faith in Egypt. We cannot preach our faith in Egypt. The Copts come overseas and what do they do?? They just behave as if they are in Egypt. They do not evangelise their faith at all. I think they will be judged on this.
its a sin.
"We preach your death O Lord, and Your Holy Resurrection and Ascension, we acknowledge"
Who do they preach it to? To people who already are saved??
They will be judged on what they have done in these lands of immigration.
This is extreme backwardness.
We should take the same attitude towards the long psalms. In the time during the reading of the psalm you could meditate on the psalm, reread the prophecies and come to understand those in the relation to the Gospel.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I disagree with you Zoxsasi. It gives more time for us to meditate on the Gospel while also preserving Coptic. It is a perfect balance of the two. Now if it was just being read in Coptic, then we might have an issue (although you could always read the translation from the Pascha book).
We should take the same attitude towards the long psalms. In the time during the reading of the psalm you could meditate on the psalm, reread the prophecies and come to understand those in the relation to the Gospel.
Please read the thread from the beginning.
I was just joking. What is happening in your church is utterly wrong and unfortunately it is happening in many small churches here in the US.
Have you spoken with the priest assuming you can communicate with him?
I just don't understand anyone's logic in doing the gospel in Coptic. I cannot see , for the life of me, what is there to gain???
We are keeping the Coptic alive through keeping our hymns and tasbeha in Coptic. Doing the gospel reading and then agpeya in Coptic is just cruel.
I go to Church to pray in the paschal prayers.
EVERYTHING is in Arabic and Coptic.
There are no books for French/Flemish
Nothing.
Its very long indeed. They recite the Bible in Coptic. I've never seen this done in any other Church.
So, its cruel because RATHER than at the very least say the Bible in French because you know that there are NO books in French for people to follow - what do you do?? You go and read it in Coptic.
Its like this. I'm a guest in your house and I am starving to death. I have had nothing to eat. YOU invite me for dinner.
Whilst im sitting down at the table, you bring over your pet dog and feed him BEAUTIFUL food in front of me: Yoghurt with cucumber and mint, Vine leaves, fatta, Mahshee, rice, beef, pork, falafel, foule - and the dog is not eating it. Its just being wasted.
The dog isn't interested in eating any of that...
Im watching this and starving whilst seeing the food wasted on this dog.
You tell me: ok.. one second, it won't be long until the food I've prepared for you is ready.
I wait and I'd have been SO happy with the food you are giving to your dog. But instead, I find myself just watching your dog eat really nice food, who isn't really interested in eating this food.
Its cruel. Why?? Who are you reading the Bible in Coptic For???? WHo is benefitting??? The ONLY one benefitting is the Coptic Tradition. This is BELGIUM!!! ITS NOT EGYPT!! AT the very least READ something for those who cannot read arabic or understand it!!!!! ANYTHING!!
3 HOURS of watching other people pray in a language that no one understands (Coptic) - whilst those who are hungry and starving for this food just watch.
Yes, I contemplate in Church... i contemplate what an idiot i am for stepping my foot inside. What did I gain??
You read the Bible in Coptic and YOU benefit because you can contemplate on the previous bible readings, or the next one.. LUCKY YOU!! We have NO BOOKS to even contemplate on anything.
And honestly speaking, when I see this, the ONLY impression I get is what a bunch of fanatics! They can pray in Coptic - its OK.. pray in 10 different languages, so long as you've at least prayed in the language of those who are present in the Church.
Sure.. FEED THE DOG, but not before you've fed your guests!!!!
You all make it out as if its MY FAULT that I don't read/speak Arabic. THIS IS NOT EGYPT!!! WHAT IS THIS!!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!!?? WHY IS IT MY FAULT THAT IM EUROPEAN?? WHY AM I BEING PUNISHED FOR BEING NON EGYPTIAN IN A COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH!!!!
SO THE ONLY SOLUTION IS FOR ME TO LEARN ARABIC!!!!!!!!!!
Does his holiness want us to apply for an Egyptian passport also??
Your English seems to be pretty good.
Here is a link for the Pascha book in English you can download.
http://www.copticchurch.net/paschabook/
Thanks.
I think that many of the responses to you by some of the members have been misdirected. The subject of this thread, reading the bible in coptic, is not the problem you face. You have a much more severe problem at your church from what you are describing. Not having any readings in the host country's language is a problem, but greater than that is that there are no paschal books in the language.
These are problems not shared by many of the posters here, so I apologise to you on their behalf. Are there any posters on here that live in france or canada, that know of any paschal books in french? How is your English? Do you feel as if you could use the paschal book present on this site?
You should make another thread outlining this problem, and I am sure that God through the posters on tasbeha.org will help find a solution. Maybe a translation exists or maybe people are able to create one when they join together. This is the spirit of fellowship that we should have with one another when discussing issues on this site.
God bless,
Markos123
It should surely be possible in every European Church to have the Scripture Readings in the local languages, even with Coptic and Arabic, since the Bible already has been translated many times into every European language.
It is not reasonable to expect the Copts in any particular country to immediately have all the services in any language, but it would take no effort at all to read the Scriptures during Pascha Week in the local languages, nor even to translate some of the fixed parts.
Indeed in the case of the French language I would imagine that the French Coptic Orthodox Church, and the French speaking Canadian Copts, as well as local Copts in Belgium, should already have available most of the usual rites in French. My own spoken French is not great but I bet even I could make a reasonable translation of the static parts of Pascha Week, and there are others, even here on tasbeha.org, who are fluent in English and French, or Arabic and French.
Father Peter
I agree 100% Zoxsasi. There is no reason to not be reading in the native language and still be reading in Coptic. I wasn't really clear on your situation, before. Sorry!
if you wanna consider reasoning that THERE IS NO REASON to stop a tradition that has been going on for that long since it doesn't effect the reading of the Bible in the native language......we are arguing on a couple of mins of reading coptic....REALLY?! there is nothing else in the world and during holy week for us to talk about?!!!
The issue Zoxasi has raised is that the scriptures are being read only in Coptic and Arabic so that no-one who speaks only French or Flemish can understand anything of what is being said, and no translations into French or Flemish are being provided by his congregation.
If even the notices of the readings are only in Coptic and Arabic then someone who does not understand either language cannot even work out what the passages are to be able to read in a French or Flemish Bible.
On this point I agree with Zoxasi, it does not take much to make French and Flemish speakers welcome. Some of the Our Fathers could also be prayed in French and Flemish perhaps. Otherwise as a French speaker he would have to stand there with no understanding of anything that was taking place.
Zoxasi, for ur information, there's pascha books in both French and Dutch (=Flemish).
I will find these translations and print them out for everyone. But next year.
Can you send me the PDF for these translations??