Hi guys,
I am considering leaving the Coptic Church and joining the Catholic Church. I'll be honest, I think the Coptic church is more spiritual; the only reason I'm leaving is because I cannot find a wife in the Coptic church. Now I know some of you are ready to pounce, but, please, I really need solid advice, not patronizing advice. Marriage is a sacrament and therefore something very serious. Not being able to marry is a serious problem.
I know some of you are thinking to tell me 'just pray and God will give you a wife.' But I have prayed for a very long time and there has been no answer. I used to think God was testing me, but now I think God really wants me to leave. I have been waiting many years now, (about 10) so it is hard for me to believe that patience is the answer. I think this is a sign from God that I need to leave. Perhaps there is a greater purpose in me leaving the Coptic church. I have expereinced other problems in the Coptic church too that make me think I should leave.
I also know that some of you want to tell me that finding a wife is God's job and that I shouldn't do any effort to find one. But I am convinced that that is wrong. You wouldn't tell someone who needs a job just to pray for one; he also needs to go fill out applications. You wouldn't tell someone who wants the gospel to be preached just to pray; he also needs to go on mission trips and spread the world. My point is: prayer is part of it, but there must also be a personal effort. In the area where I live (in USA), there are only a few Coptic churches and I could not find even one woman who would make a suitable wife (for one reason or another.) I have to be practical, I cannot just have faith without wisdom.
So what do you guys think? Is this a bad idea? Defend your position. Prayers are apreciated.
Comments
Also, St. Augustine was a horrible person in the beginning of his life and his mother would pray everyday so that he could become good again. God answered her prayers more than 12 years later. God is doing this with you. You need to be patient. You keep saying that you need to do something instead of waiting and praying, and that's also right. Pray first then visit other cities and states with a lot of coptic churches and look for your future spouse (California has a lot of churches in the southern part).
May God help you find the right spouse. Amen.
What is more important - finding a wife or staying in the true and pure faith? There really shouldn't be any debate about that.
What makes you thinking going to the RC church is a sure way of getting married? Why not try the Protestant church? They have many more women, probably prettier.
Actually it doesn't matter what church you go to, you can always convert again if you can't find a wife.
Sound silly? It is.
I know it can be difficult and frustrating not finding a wife and being single. You are probably getting older and worrying that your 'window' is closing. It is totally understandable. But understand that what you gain is not worth what you lose.
I am afraid, however, that the fact that you even asked this question implies you really have no idea what you will be losing. You think you are just switching to a 'less spiritual' church.
I disagree with you on the issue of prayer. Pray must be consistent and persistent. Read Luke chapter 18. In it we see the persistent widow, the tax collector, and the blind beggar. All remained steadfast and did not lose faith. It is the Lord's pleasure to give us all good things.
Although you may not like it: PRAY. Pray unceasingly. Remember our father Abraham. God will give you what is good for you in due time.
A member of the Coptic Church could marry an Ethiopian, an Eritrean, and Armenian, an Indian or a Syrian. And could even marry a member of the EO rather than abandon their faith for the sake of getting married.
It is better to remain unmarried than to abandon the faith and be in danger of eternal loss.
There is NOTHING more important than our faith. Everything else must be sacrificed to the service of God in the Orthodox Church, however difficult.
Hence, I do not feel I would be abandoning the faith. But I would merely be leaving for a less spiritual church. It would be like leaving a Coptic church in Egypt and coming to a Coptic church in America.
I am quite convinced that I will not find anyone in other states, or other orthodox churches. I've tried.
And I think you guys are ignoring the fact that marriage is an aspect of our faith. If there were no orthodox priests around to give me communion, shouldn't I join the Catholic church so I don't miss out on the sacrament?
Marriage is a sacrament! That means that it is something very important, in some cases, necessary for salvation!
Forgive me, but what you've just said shows a grievous lack of understanding of even the most fundamental aspects of the Orthodox faith.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141753#msg141753 date=1311359832]
But I thought that we beleive that Catholics can go to heaven and that we accept their sacraments. Am I wrong?
You're wrong.
Q: Can Catholics go to heaven?
A: Only God knows.
Q: Do Orthodox accept Catholic sacraments?
A: No
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141753#msg141753 date=1311359832]
Hence, I do not feel I would be abandoning the faith. But I would merely be leaving for a less spiritual church. It would be like leaving a Coptic church in Egypt and coming to a Coptic church in America.
No. It is not the same thing. The Catholic faith is not the same as the Orthodox faith, not dogmatically, not doctrinally, not in any way. Leaving the Orthodox faith amounts to apostasy as you would be embracing utterly heretical (and therefore un-Apostolic) teachings. A more accurate example would be leaving the Coptic Church in Egypt and attending a Mosque in Egypt.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141753#msg141753 date=1311359832]
I am quite convinced that I will not find anyone in other states, or other orthodox churches. I've tried.
I genuinely doubt this.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141753#msg141753 date=1311359832]
And I think you guys are ignoring the fact that marriage is an aspect of our faith. If there were no orthodox priests around to give me communion, shouldn't I join the Catholic church so I don't miss out on the sacrament?
No. You either attend a sister Orthodox Church (i.e. Ethiopian, Eritriean, Indian, Syriac or Armenian) to partake of the Holy Gifts, or you wait until you have an opportunity to partake at a Coptic Church when it arises.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141753#msg141753 date=1311359832]
Marriage is a sacrament! That means that it is something very important, in some cases, necessary for salvation!
Marriage is a sacrament. However, there are only 4 sacraments that are necessary for salvation: Baptism, Chrismation, Repentance/Confession and Communion. The other 3 are not.
Just some words of thought, spoken by Christ Himself:
[quote=Luke 14:26]If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
Edit: Changed 'heterodox' to 'heretical'.
If I may add one thing - after reading your thread, I did my Bible reading and came across this passage and feel that it could be beneficial to you.
[quote=Luke Ch.11:5-13]
5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs.
9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
Why do you want to get married? Sex isn't important.
You think people get married just to have sex?
[quote author=Khas. link=topic=11899.msg141759#msg141759 date=1311367028]
Why do you want to get married? Sex isn't important.
You think people get married just to have sex?
“There are two reasons for which marriage was established …to cause the man to be satisfied with one single wife and to give him children, but it is the first which is the most important…the proof is to be found in the many marriages for which having children is not possible. This is why the primary reason for marriage is to regulate the sexual life, especially now that the human race has already populated the whole world".
------St. John Chrysostom
Can you provide the source for your quote, or a link, if possible?
http://www.uaocamerica.org/FundamentalTeaching/DivorceRemarriageOeconomia.dsp
]Matthew 10:37 NKJV
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
these are the same father and mother which GOD spoke about saying:
Ephesians 6:1-2
"Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise.
You do the math........
I am sorry.......but i am gonna be a harsh because this is an important matter.
]Matthew 10:37 NKJV
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
these are the same father and mother which GOD spoke about saying:
Ephesians 6:1-2
"Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise.
You do the math........
What are you trying to say?
He's saying that if you love anything or anyone more than Christ, you are not worthy of Christ.
As to the situation that is driving you to take such desperate measures: I don't know you from Adam, but from what you've written I'd venture to guess that you've been passive about your romantic situation and as a result are now impatient and are trying to correct things by making an extreme change in your circumstances. Sort of like "God hasn't blessed me as I want Him to here, so this must be His way of telling me I need to be somewhere else." This can't be good. Honestly, it doesn't even seem to be well thought out. We should NEVER make big, life-altering choices while in a state of desperation. Looking at my own life (to try to first take myself to task, because I don't want to seem like I'm haranguing you), I could have easily come to the same conclusion about my religious life: I wasn't growing in the Roman Catholic Church, I was spiritually starving, etc. I figured it must be a sign that I should be somewhere else, but rather than immediately leave after coming to this idea, I spent quite a while seeking out advice where I was (it seems that you are doing this by posting this topic; good). I spent countless hours in discussion with my spiritual father, who really helped clarify my situation. I visited other (Catholic) churches, and talked to priests and laypeople there. It wasn't until I had a pretty good idea of what I'd be leaving (certainly much more mature and well informed than before, anyway) that God introduced me to the Coptic church. That's the part that I believe was really God's doing, since the earlier feeling of wanting to leave the Catholic Church is easily explainable by the fact that I didn't feel my spiritual needs being met there. The jump from that vague sense of dissatisfaction to where I am now is not explainable by my own intellect, however.
The abbreviated version: Never confuse your own feelings for what God wants you to do, or else you might end up following yourself and not God (I know this because I've done it). Maybe it's not God's will that you be married. You can't know if you run from His path to a new place that might make it easier for you to get what you want. That's disobedient and selfish in the extreme, even if we're talking about something that could conceivably be thought of as a reasonable request (to be married). No matter what you do, God is the ultimate protector and judge of your life. No one can stop you from leaving the Orthodox church for any reason you can think of, but neither will you have any defense before God for your own decisions if you rush after what you want rather than wait patiently on the Lord.
I write all this not to chastise you for wanting to be married, but because I can relate to the situation of waiting and waiting and becoming impatient. We must learn to wait, though. In the words of the Psalmist:
I would have lost heart, unless I had believed
That I would see the goodness of the LORD
In the land of the living.
Wait on the LORD;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the LORD!
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg141763#msg141763 date=1311370210]
Can you provide the source for your quote, or a link, if possible?
http://www.uaocamerica.org/FundamentalTeaching/DivorceRemarriageOeconomia.dsp
I meant the original text. Two lines are insufficient in understanding exactly what St. John meant.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141764#msg141764 date=1311370700]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg141763#msg141763 date=1311370210]
Can you provide the source for your quote, or a link, if possible?
http://www.uaocamerica.org/FundamentalTeaching/DivorceRemarriageOeconomia.dsp
I meant the original text. Two lines are insufficient in understanding exactly what St. John meant.
"You must learn first what the purpose of marriage is and why it was introduced into our life. Do not ask anything else. What then is the reason for marriage and why did God give it to use? Listen to what Paul says: "Because of the temptation to immorality let each man have his own wife." He does not say, "Because of relief from poverty," or "Because of acquisition of wealth," but what? In order that we may avoid fornication, restrain our desire, practice chastity, and be well pleasing to God by being satisfied with our own wife: this is the gift of marriage, this is its fruit, this is its profit. Do not, therefore, neglect the greater benefit and seek the lesser. Wealth is far inferior to chastity. We should seek a wife for this reason only, in order to avoid sin, to be freed from all immorality. To this end every marriage should be set up so that it may work together for chastity. This will be the case if we marry such brides as are able to bring great piety, chastity, and goodness to us."
----St. John Chrysosotom in "how to choose a wife"
If you want more, you're just going to have to buy 'On marriage and family life' from SVS press. It has the whole sermon and a few other sermons.
I think that you guys think that marriage is something fun; something enjoyable but not important to the faith. Even though the bible says that marriage is something sacred, an 'honorable thing.'
In my opinion, not being able to marry is like not being able to take communion.
If you really want to convince me of your opinion, use bible verses not your own vain and empty arguments.
Just a quick quotation: "I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife" Cor A 7:32.
Are you saying you cannot marry in the Coptic Church because it is not the true Church so God stopped blessing her with enough females and now all Copt males need to leave to find brides somewhere else?
Or
You are saying you cannot marry in the Coptic Church because of your own situation that is preventing you from getting a marriage permit to marry in the Coptic Church.
Please, let us know which one.
Or "The Coptic Church isn't the true church because I never received the honorable sacrament of priesthood."
Your logic doesn't follow. God doesn't change. We cannot pick the god that suits us best.
We need to search for truth. We need to search for love. What God is ACTUALLY out there, and how He feels about us. What He did for us. What He wants of us now, and then the religion will follow. And it is obvious He has left the Orthodox church as the gem in this world.
And I agree with the above. Why do you think it's easier to find a wife as a Catholic. Stop making excuses for yourself, and find the root of the problems you think you're having.
Pray for truth. Only God's truth.
Hi guys,
I am considering leaving the Coptic Church and joining the Catholic Church. I'll be honest, I think the Coptic church is more spiritual;
I see you've answered the question yourself. You still prefer the Coptic Church's spirituality. Let's take what you are planning to its logical conclusion:
You go to the Catholic Church and you meet 1000's of girls who are catholic.
You like one, and she likes you.
You are about to get married, and she tells you that she wants to get married in the Catholic Church.
What do you do?
Why would you convince her to get married in the Coptic Church if you yourself went to the Catholic Church? That's just pointless.
So you're going to be stuck ANYWAY. You'd have wasted MORE time. You've spent 10 years looking for a wife in the COC and then blown it all away by wasting another 10 years (or God knows how much) in the Catholic Church.
I have nothing against your plans if you REALLY loved the Catholic Church and what it stands for. But finding a wife MEANS finding someone with something in common with you. You are not even being honest about who you are with them. You're going to the RC to find a wife KNOWING very well that you don't want to be Catholic yourself.
Like I said, if you did LOVE the RC, and you appreciated it, I would have nothing against anything you said.
Also, there's another problem. Let's say your wife becomes Coptic. Well, she's becoming Coptic for you. That's not good. YOU SHOULD NEVER CHANGE YOUR RELIGION/CHURCH FOR ANYONE. FAITH ISN'T A GARMENT YOU PUT ON AND CHANGE WHEN YOU CHANGE YOUR HAIRSTYLE. ITS SERIOUS ISSUE.
What about your kids? What religion will they be?? There are WORSE problems in life than this!!!
Marriage is a sacrament and its serious, but you are not married, and have NOTHING to worry about. I really don't get your logic here!! No! Its not a sign from God. Our church is always going to have this problem. That's why there are youth Conventions. You should go to these. Have you ever been?? Dude!! Look at what you are saying!! You are saying that finding a wife should be like finding a job.. you have to search and fill job application forms? Right? But what you are WRITING on your application form is TOTALLY dishonest. You are not presenting yourself in all sincerity to your future employer. You are lying on the application form.
I understand your frustration in not being able to find a wife in the Coptic Church; but this is not uncommon.
First of all, not everyone goes to the Coptic Church will really care about the spirituality side; its usually going to be because of the social/Egyptian side. The Coptic CHurch has to realise its a Church, not a Consulate for Egypt. Its totally wrong.
There are many things wrong or things I hate about the COC, but in terms of the faith itself, you are part of the TRUE Church.
I went to the Catholic Church - its a long story, but i never had a Coptic Church, so the next best thing was a Catholic Church. I found myself still preferring the spirituality of the Coptic Church. The Catholic Church is lovely, and I love it, but for me, its lacking in the things we are developed in. Likewise, the Coptic Church is lacking in things that the Catholic Church is developed in - like Catholicism. We are not catholic. We are the Church of Egypt. I think anyone who enters our Church ends up speaking Arabic whether they intended to or not. This is not right!!
But there is a HUGE difference between me and you: I LOVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH very much. Although I am now married, I admit my wife prefers the Orthodox liturgy, but I miss the Catholic a lot. I miss understanding the sermons in French/English. My arabic is very poor.
I miss many things about the Catholic Church.
My wife and I both attended the Catholic Church, and we both ended up in the Orthodox Church simply because - ultimately speaking, the Orthodox faith is just that - "Orthodox". The best time of my life was in the Catholic Church, but even though I had problems in the Orthodox, I found myself still more attracted to the Orthodox faith.
There are communities in the Catholic Church that are VERY close to our faith, and those would be the Byzantine Catholics, the Traditionalists etc.
Are our faiths different?? Well, it depends. We believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. They believe He proceeds through the Son and Father. OK.. how important is this? Well, it is quite important. Its not trifle; but the RC are changing their definition of this.
Some catholics (NOT ALL) believe you are not saved UNLESS you are catholic - some don't. So, if you marry someone who believes that you must be catholic to be saved, then poor you!!
There are a few more differences you should investigate BEFORE you embark on going to the RC.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141789#msg141789 date=1311419948]
If you really want to convince me of your opinion, use bible verses not your own vain and empty arguments.
Does anyone else see the irony here? Your 'argument' (if one can even call it that) is the epitome of vain and empty. Let's deconstruct this one as well.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141789#msg141789 date=1311419948]
Alright everyone, but what if I told you that I think the Coptic church is not the true church because I cannot find a wife in it.
Then I'd have to say you're knowledge of Orthodoxy is nil. The Orthodox Church is the Church established by Christ and passed down by His Apostles whether you think it or not. Your opinion on it is moot at best. Your 'argument' is about as ridiculous as saying, 'God does not exists because I have never seen Him'.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141789#msg141789 date=1311419948]
God is not willing to give me a wife there because he wants me out.
God wants you out of the Church He Himself established? Are you joking? Maybe your 'god' wants you out of the true Church, but God would never want that. God brings people into His Church. Always has, always will.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141789#msg141789 date=1311419948]
I think that you guys think that marriage is something fun; something enjoyable but not important to the faith. Even though the bible says that marriage is something sacred, an 'honorable thing.'
It is not important to the faith. There are many celibate, unmarried Saints who have emulated Christ. St. Paul even says that the ideal is to remain unmarried as he was unmarried.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141789#msg141789 date=1311419948]
In my opinion, not being able to marry is like not being able to take communion.
Once again, this is foolishness. Communion is necessary for salvation. A person who does not commune cannot obtain salvation. A person who does not marry can still obtain salvation.
Christ Himself has said that if you put anyone before Him, you are not worthy of Him. If you wish to apostasize, you reject Christ and His Church. And for what? Because you can't find a wife. A word of advice: desperation is a very unattractive trait to women. They can pick up on it immediately. Perhaps you should work on that; you may have better luck with the opposite sex.
I do not beleive that the Coptic church in America is more spiritual than the Catholic church (in America). I think that the Coptic church of Egypt is better than the catholic church.
Also, I do not think you can define a church or a faith with pen and paper. Faith is defined by what is written on the tablets of the heart of the believer, not what is written in the cannons, (in my opinion).
That being said, there is no difference between Catholics and Orthodox if Catholic sacraments are considered valid.
I am not converting to Catholicism. I will be an Orthodox Christian who attends a Catholic church exclusively. If my faith is the true faith, I would still be Orthodox, would I not? And if a Catholic has the true faith, can you not call him Orthodox? But if someone has a heretical faith and attends the Coptic church, how can you call him Orthodox.
Again, I don't like the Coptic church. I like Christianity and the Bible and the Coptic church helped to teach me these things, but I do not ultimately see it as the one true church.
God wrote Moses the commencements on tablets. The Bible is a collection of written books that defined the faith in God and salvation.
Your Christian belief is based on what was written by God, the prophets, the apostles, the Church Fathers and the saints.
The difference between the Orthodox and the Catholics is that Catholics did not preserve the faith as it has been handed down by Christ. So, there is no communion between the two Churches and their sacraments DO differ as they are not recognized in the Orthodox Church. For example the Catholic priests cannot hold Eucharistic services in the Orthodox Church since their sacrament of priesthood is not recognized.
I've read your responses and I think I need to clarify something since they seem to be off-topic.
I do not beleive that the Coptic church in America is more spiritual than the Catholic church (in America). I think that the Coptic church of Egypt is better than the catholic church.
Also, I do not think you can define a church or a faith with pen and paper. Faith is defined by what is written on the tablets of the heart of the believer, not what is written in the cannons, (in my opinion).
That being said, there is no difference between Catholics and Orthodox if Catholic sacraments are considered valid.
I am not converting to Catholicism. I will be an Orthodox Christian who attends a Catholic church exclusively. If my faith is the true faith, I would still be Orthodox, would I not? And if a Catholic has the true faith, can you not call him Orthodox? But if someone has a heretical faith and attends the Coptic church, how can you call him Orthodox.
Again, I don't like the Coptic church. I like Christianity and the Bible and the Coptic church helped to teach me these things, but I do not ultimately see it as the one true church.
You have not replied to my earlier comment:
Are you saying you cannot marry in the Coptic Church because it is not the true Church so God stopped blessing her with enough females and now all Copt males need to leave to find brides somewhere else?
Or
You are saying you cannot marry in the Coptic Church because of your own situation that is preventing you from getting a marriage permit to marry in the Coptic Church.
Please, let us know which one.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11899.msg141799#msg141799 date=1311450487] This is absolutely wrong.
God wrote Moses the commencements on tablets. The Bible is a collection of written books that defined the faith in God and salvation.
"clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." (2 cor 3:3).
The problem is that God is not blessing her with enough females. It seems that there are very few practicing American-born youth.
Also, I don't think what you said about the sacraments is right. I am quite sure that the Coptic church recognizes the Catholic sacraments. Perhaps you could provide a source for your position.
The problem is that God is not blessing her with enough females. It seems that there are very few practicing American-born youth.
are you serious?! "God is not blessing [The Coptic Church] with enough females"...that is your reason for leaving the Church (yes leaving the Church becasue breaking set canons of the Church means you separate yourself from the Church) the more you write on the post, the more you show your ignorance of your faith, your beliefs and the beliefs of the churches (the Catholic and the Coptic both).
may i ask, how old are you exactly?