dear imikhail, did you mean to reply to mabsoota's question?.. if so, what does the liturgy have to do with Romans 5 ?.. could someone offer a theological answer please? i am really interested. thank you.
My comment was the general one. W often forget to council our ritual books that are basically a confession of the Curch's belief in a prayer form. The liturgy of baptism contains nothing of the original sin idea. However, it speaks of the fallen nature and its renewal.
I find Fr. Peter,s answers comrehensive. Please read the liturgy of baptism.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=9585.msg118407#msg118407 date=1282216370] Psalm 51 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Just a short note on this verse; our beautiful brothers who do believe in original sin felt compelled to embellish this verse by changing the word amartias (sins plural) as it is recorded to sin singular. Hence this verse refers to our mothers as sinners not any specific sin of our mothers during our conception. People who want sin to be something biologically transfered corrupt the bible in this way.
The problem with misunderstanding original sin is the huge impact has on our repentance which makes this error most unacceptable. I think that Fr Peter has done a great job of explaining and I tentatively hope to add some words which I think describe how this error is inferior to the traditional teaching of the Church. The problem of sin is rooted in the corruption which now exists in nature and we are all active participants in, its kind of like a good analogy which C.S.Lewis gave. Some people think Christians are morbid and selfish people for spending all their time focusing on their sins - when in the tradition of the world they should be thinking of the bigger problems in life like how to have world peace or solving world debt and hunger. He counters by saying what good would a united nations soldier be if he was charged with keeping his rifle clean so that he was ready to go on his next peace keeping mission. If the solder was to reply to his superior questioning why he was bothering to clean his rifle when there are all these problems in the world the dilema of original sin becomes clearer.
A soldier with a dirty gun is no good to the united nations or any of its causes and it is the same with us; it is our personal sins - all of us - that make the world what it is. Each time we do seemingly small evil acts like talking back or seething internally with anger we contribute and interact with the evil in the world. It is our responsibility first and foremost to make sure that our hearts and minds are clean and as people with an illness it is impossible for one who is sick to heal themselves; they need a healer who is not prone to this illness to come to them.
The world of sin which we live in is the result of our blinkeredness; that we have an illness which not only makes us ill but it also stops us from being to see how ill we actually are. If I had not heard the commandments of Christ and learned about them from my parents I would still be living in darkness and blindness. Practical examples of how this are so are revealed gradually in the Gospels - the apostles knew that people live with this sense of blinkeredness so they wrote the Gospels as a way of showing how Christ needed to puncture through our consciousness; what we knew of the world around us as a way to demonstrate to us - gradually - who He is, what the situation we're living is, and what we need to do about it. A good short example of this is the samaritan woman - Christ very gently revealed to her a little bit about who He was and the situation she was in. He did it very gently and kindly because He knew that she wouldn't be able to know about all her sins at once this short dialogue is a way of our heavenly physician bringing remedy to the problem of sin in one persons life and also going back our UN analogy giving her something which genuinely has the power to transform the world rather than destroy it.
More nice examples of it come from St Gregory of Nyssa's treatise on prayer; he says that we rush to go quickly to our worldly endeavours like work or the sales at our favourite shop. In doing this we hope to get in early and hold sway and have an advantage over our neighbour and we twist the Lord's commandment; we turn the one we're commanded to live along with God into our rival. St Gregory says that we must involve God in all our endeavours so that we don't live under this misapprehension that we need to beat our neighbours in our worldly ventures to prosper. The real remedy is that when we put ourselves into the hands of God he blesses our work and so we can prosper without dishonesty and even small amounts of time dedicated to the work he have at hand will lead us to prosper. This demonstrates how blinkered we are by trusting ourselves rather than God and contributing to not just the evil in our hearts but in our communities and society when we rival and war with one another. We are also blind to how these simple small acts of competition in financial matters transform us from neighbours to rivals.
Another good example from the gospels which Fr Thomas Hopko from AFR talked about what the story of the man legion and he mentions in this that there are two kinds of demon possession. There is the first obvious example when the man is tormented bitterly and he does all kinds of things to harm himself. The second less obvious is the normal people of the city who told Christ to leave after He performed this miracle. Their demon possession was that they were doing nothing more than being stuck in the status quo - they liked the world the way it way and to see someone like Christ come and change it might mean them losing their advantage or control and so they rejected Him because they didn't know He was there to deliver them for death and destruction which was deeply rooted into the daily lives that they were living.
Closer to home, the reason that our children will become sinners is that in due time when we marry and have children is not because of the sin of a man so long ago - more practically speaking it will happen because of things closer to home, things which sadly WE will teach them.
On the subject of biology I think - this is my personal inference from the Gospels so I am quite happy to be wrong about this but what I think the fathers and bible are trying to teach us is that our normal mortal natures with all their biological desires such as human appetites, sexual desires and so on by themselves without the sanctification of God will lead us into sin. I think that this is the reason that we say through the act of one man we all became sinners because when corruption entered into the world the authority we had over our own nature in Christ was taken from us and we were left to the miserable whims of our nature we would suffer for it; the only way we can have this peace back is through, repentance, struggle and sacramental life.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=9585.msg140108#msg140108 date=1308779284] sorry, i didn't understand your answer. and, may i add, it is not a theological one...
Is this a joke? A commentary on Romans 5 by a renowned Church Father is not a theological one? Seriously? Then you clearly don't know what 'theological' means. And if you don't understand, that's not my problem.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg141156#msg141156 date=1310251101] In Pope Shenouda's Book Adam and Eve he says:
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
... and with all due respect, what is the difference between 'adam's fallen nature' and 'our sinful nature'????... is 'falling' not the same thing as 'sinning'???... why do we have to play around with words?..
[quote author=lightening link=topic=9585.msg141818#msg141818 date=1311462302] [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg141156#msg141156 date=1310251101] In Pope Shenouda's Book Adam and Eve he says:
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
... and with all due respect, what is the difference between 'adam's fallen nature' and 'our sinful nature'????... is 'falling' not the same thing as 'sinning'???... why do we have to play around with words?..
Fallen and sinful are two words that mean the same thing: the tendency to sin.
I prefer 'fallen nature' over 'sinful nature'. The reason is for the very issue lightening raises: 'falling' does not necessarily correlate to 'sinning'. For instance, the blessed Theotokos was sinless and yet possessed a fallen nature. She was certainly prone to sin, but never willfully sinned. Maybe that's just me.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=9585.msg141818#msg141818 date=1311462302] [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg141156#msg141156 date=1310251101] In Pope Shenouda's Book Adam and Eve he says:
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
... and with all due respect, what is the difference between 'adam's fallen nature' and 'our sinful nature'????... is 'falling' not the same thing as 'sinning'???... why do we have to play around with words?..
nope. there's a crucial difference
saying we inherited adam's sin, implies that we would be punished for something adam did.
saying that we inherited his fallen nature, implies that his sin caused a certain negetive change in him. Unforutunatly for all of us, we inherit this negative change, and as a result of it, we sin. thus any punishment we might recieve is because of stuff we did.
Also, guys, I'd just like to note that the doctrine that says St. Mary is without sin is a Catholic doctrine. not ours. Our church says that there's no one without sin except for Christ himself. That does not take away our reverence to the holy Theotokos.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142119#msg142119 date=1311896278] Also, guys, I'd just like to note that the doctrine that says St. Mary is without sin is a Catholic doctrine. not ours. Our church says that there's no one without sin except for Christ himself. That does not take away our reverence to the holy Theotokos.
Incorrect. You are thinking of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, where the blessed Theotokos is born without Original Sin (a concept we Orthodox reject). However, the sinlessness of the blessed Virgin is unanimously declared by the Church. Have a look at Father Tadros Malaty's book St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept. In particular I refer you to pages 63-66.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142120#msg142120 date=1311897838] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142119#msg142119 date=1311896278] Also, guys, I'd just like to note that the doctrine that says St. Mary is without sin is a Catholic doctrine. not ours. Our church says that there's no one without sin except for Christ himself. That does not take away our reverence to the holy Theotokos.
Incorrect. You are thinking of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, where the blessed Theotokos is born without Original Sin (a concept we Orthodox reject). However, the sinlessness of the blessed Virgin is unanimously declared by the Church. Have a look at Father Tadros Malaty's book St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept. In particular I refer you to pages 63-66.
Fr. Tadros' comments seem inconclusive, he presents a few quotes in support of the idea that St. Mary was sinless (2 of which are ambiguous). Even more startling is the fact that those who opposed to this view are giants in the Coptic OC (Irenaeus, Origen, John Chrysostom), whereas the citations in favor of this view aren't.
I wouldn't classify all those saints as 'giants'. Also, they are still human and are prone to error. If Fr. Malaty says that they are in disagreement with the Early Church, that should be enough to show that the sinlessness of St. Mary is Orthodox theologoumenon.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142150#msg142150 date=1311914587] + Irini nem ehmot,
I wouldn't classify all those saints as 'giants'. Also, they are still human and are prone to error. If Fr. Malaty says that they are in disagreement with the Early Church, that should be enough to show that the sinlessness of St. Mary is Orthodox theologoumenon.
But then again, Fr. Tadros is human. ;)
I am not in disagreement with what Fr. Tadros says per se, I just don't think he provided enough evidence.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142152#msg142152 date=1311915290] baba shenouda wrote a book on the same subject. I'll look at it and tell u what he says.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142153#msg142153 date=1311915473] + Irini nem ehmot,
Yes. But the Early Church isn't. ;)
Your post reads:
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142150#msg142150 date=1311914587] If Fr. Malaty says that they are in disagreement with the Early Church, that should be enough to show that the sinlessness of St. Mary is Orthodox theologoumenon.
This is not the Early church.
--Again, a few quotes out of context cannot tell me what the Early Church believed. More concrete evidence would be edifying.
BTW, Pope Shenouda's pamphlet (the one you linked) never says that St. Mary is without sin. . .
[quote=Apocryphal Works on the Assumption of Mary]The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.
[...]
The apostles said all these things to the holy mother of God, why they had come, and in what way; and she stretched her hands to heaven and prayed, saying: I adore, and praise, and glorify Your much to be praised name, O Lord, because You have looked upon the lowliness of Your handmaiden, and because You that are mighty has done great things for me; and, behold, all generations shall count me blessed. Luke 1:48 And after the prayer she said to the apostles: Cast incense, and pray. And when they had prayed, there was thunder from heaven, and there came a fearful voice, as if of chariots; and, behold, a multitude of a host of angels and powers, and a voice, as if of the Son of man, was heard, and the seraphim in a circle round the house where the holy, spotless mother of God and virgin was lying, so that all who were in Bethlehem beheld all the wonderful things, and came to Jerusalem and reported all the wonderful things that had come to pass. And it came to pass, when the voice was heard, that the sun and the moon suddenly appeared about the house; and an assembly of the first-born saints stood beside the house where the mother of the Lord was lying, for her honour and glory. And I beheld also that many signs came to pass, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, lepers cleansed, and those possessed by unclean spirits cured; and every one who was under disease and sickness, touching the outside of the wall of the house where she was lying, cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ our God, have mercy upon us. And they were straightway cured. And great multitudes out of every country living in Jerusalem for the sake of prayer, having heard of the signs that had come to pass in Bethlehem through the mother of the Lord, came to the place seeking the cure of various diseases, which also they obtained. And there was joy unspeakable on that day among the multitude of those who had been cured, as well as of those who looked on, glorifying Christ our God and His mother. And all Jerusalem from Bethlehem kept festival with psalms and spiritual songs.
And the priests of the Jews, along with their people, were astonished at the things which had come to pass; and being moved with the heaviest hatred, and again with frivolous reasoning, having made an assembly, they determine to send against the holy mother of God and the holy apostles who were there in Bethlehem. And accordingly the multitude of the Jews, having directed their course to Bethlehem, when at the distance of one mile it came to pass that they beheld a frightful vision, and their feet were held fast; and after this they returned to their fellow-countrymen, and reported all the frightful vision to the chief priests. And they, still more boiling with rage, go to the procurator, crying out and saying: The nation of the Jews has been ruined by this woman; chase her from Bethlehem and the province of Jerusalem. And the procurator, astonished at the wonderful things, said to them: I will chase her neither from Bethlehem nor from any other place. And the Jews continued crying out, and adjuring him by the health of Tiberius Cæsar to bring the apostles out of Bethlehem. And if you do not do so, we shall report it to the Cæsar. Accordingly, being compelled, he sends a tribune of the soldiers against the apostles to Bethlehem. And the Holy Spirit says to the apostles and the mother of the Lord: Behold, the procurator has sent a tribune against you, the Jews having made an uproar. Go forth therefore from Bethlehem, and fear not: for, behold, by a cloud I shall bring you to Jerusalem; for the power of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is with you. The apostles therefore rose up immediately, and went forth from the house, carrying the bed of the Lady the mother of God, and directed their course to Jerusalem; and immediately, as the Holy Spirit had said, being lifted up by a cloud, they were found in Jerusalem in the house of the Lady. And they stood up, and for five days made an unceasing singing of praise. And when the tribune came to Bethlehem, and found there neither the mother of the Lord nor the apostles, he laid hold of the Bethlehemites, saying to them: Did you not come telling the procurator and the priests all the signs and wonders that had come to pass, and how the apostles had come out of every country? Where are they, then? Come, go to the procurator at Jerusalem. For the tribune did not know of the departure of the apostles and the Lord's mother to Jerusalem. The tribune then, having taken the Bethlehemites, went in to the procurator, saying that he had found no one. And after five days it was known to the procurator, and the priests, and all the city, that the Lord's mother was in her own house in Jerusalem, along with the apostles, from the signs and wonders that came to pass there. And a multitude of men and women and virgins came together, and cried out: Holy virgin, that brought forth Christ our God, do not forget the generation of men. And when these things came to pass, the people of the Jews, with the priests also, being the more moved with hatred, took wood and fire, and came up, wishing to burn the house where the Lord's mother was living with the apostles. And the procurator stood looking at the sight from afar off. And when the people of the Jews came to the door of the house, behold, suddenly a power of fire coming forth from within, by means of an angel, burnt up a great multitude of the Jews. And there was great fear throughout all the city; and they glorified God, who had been born of her. And when the procurator saw what had come to pass, he cried out to all the people, saying: Truly he who was born of the virgin, whom you have thought of driving away, is the Son of God; for these signs are those of the true God. And there was a division among the Jews; and many believed in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in consequence of the signs that had come to pass.
And after all these wonderful things had come to pass through the mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary the mother of the Lord, while we the apostles were with her in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit said to us: You know that on the Lord's day the good news was brought to the Virgin Mary by the archangel Gabriel; and on the Lord's day the Saviour was born in Bethlehem; and on the Lord's day the children of Jerusalem came forth with palm branches to meet him, saying, Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord; and on the Lord's day He rose from the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come to judge the living and the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come out of heaven, to the glory and honour of the departure of the holy glorious virgin who brought Him forth. And on the same Lord's day the mother of the Lord says to the apostles: Cast incense, because Christ is coming with a host of angels; and, behold, Christ is at hand, sitting on a throne of cherubim. And while we were all praying, there appeared innumerable multitudes of angels, and the Lord mounted upon cherubim in great power; and, behold, a stream of light coming to the holy virgin, because of the presence of her only-begotten Son, and all the powers of the heavens fell down and adored Him. And the Lord, speaking to His mother, said: Mary. And she answered and said: Here am I, Lord. And the Lord said to her: Grieve not, but let your heart rejoice and be glad; for you have found grace to behold the glory given to me by my Father. And the holy mother of God looked up, and saw in Him a glory which it is impossible for the mouth of man to speak of, or to apprehend. And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time your precious body will be transferred to paradise, and your holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels—and other things besides. And the mother of the Lord answered and said to him: Lay Your right hand upon me, O Lord, and bless me. And the Lord stretched forth His undefiled right hand, and blessed her. And she laid hold of His undefiled right hand, and kissed it, saying: I adore this right hand, which created the heaven and the earth; and I call upon Your much to be praised name Christ, O God, the King of the ages, the only-begotten of the Father, to receive Your handmaid, Thou who deigned to be brought forth by me, in a low estate, to save the race of men through Your ineffable dispensation; do Thou bestow Your aid upon every man calling upon, or praying to, or naming the name of, Your handmaid. And while she is saying this, the apostles, having gone up to her feet and adored, say: O mother of the Lord, leave a blessing to the world, since you are going away from it. For you have blessed it, and raised it up when it was ruined, by bringing forth the Light of the world. And the mother of the Lord prayed, and in her prayer spoke thus: O God, who through Your great goodness hast sent from the heavens Your only-begotten Son to dwell in my humble body, who hast deigned to be born of me, humble as I am, have mercy upon the world, and every soul that calls upon Your name. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord, King of the heavens, Son of the living God, accept every man who calls upon Your name, that Your birth may be glorified. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord Jesus Christ, who art all-powerful in heaven and on earth, in this appeal I implore Your holy name; in every time and place where there is made mention of my name, make that place holy, and glorify those that glorify You through my name, accepting of such persons all their offering, and all their supplication, and all their prayer. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let your heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens. And the Lord turned and said to Peter: The time has come to begin the singing of the hymn. And Peter having begun the singing of the hymn, all the powers of the heavens responded with the Alleluiah. And then the face of the mother of the Lord shone brighter than the light, and she rose up and blessed each of the apostles with her own hand, and all gave glory to God; and the Lord stretched forth His undefiled hands, and received her holy and blameless soul. And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed are you among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration; and the twelve apostles put her precious and holy body upon a couch, and carried it. And, behold, while they were carrying her, a certain well-born Hebrew, Jephonias by name, running against the body, put his hands upon the couch; and, behold, an angel of the Lord by invisible power, with a sword of fire, cut off his two hands from his shoulders, and made them hang about the couch, lifted up in the air. And at this miracle which had come to pass all the people of the Jews who beheld it cried out: Verily, He that was brought forth by you is the true God, O mother of God, ever-virgin Mary. And Jephonias himself, when Peter ordered him, that the wonderful things of God might be showed forth, stood up behind the couch, and cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ who is God, have mercy upon me. And Peter turned and said to him: In the name of Him who was born of her, your hands which have been taken away from you, will be fixed on again. And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
And when this miracle had been done, the apostles carried the couch, and laid down her precious and holy body in Gethsemane in a new tomb. And, behold, a perfume of sweet savour came forth out of the holy sepulchre of our Lady the mother of God; and for three days the voices of invisible angels were heard glorifying Christ our God, who had been born of her. And when the third day was ended, the voices were no longer heard; and from that time forth all knew that her spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise.
And after it had been transferred, behold, we see Elisabeth the mother of St. John the Baptist, and Anna the mother of the Lady, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and David, singing the Alleluiah, and all the choirs of the saints adoring the holy relics of the mother of the Lord, and the place full of light, than which light nothing could be more brilliant, and an abundance of perfume in that place to which her precious and holy body had been transferred in paradise, and the melody of those praising Him who had been born of her— sweet melody, of which there is no satiety, such as is given to virgins, and them only, to hear. We apostles, therefore, having beheld the sudden precious translation of her holy body, glorified God, who had shown us His wonders at the departure of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose prayers and good offices may we all be deemed worthy to receive, under her shelter, and support, and protection, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, glorifying in every time and place her only-begotten Son, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen. Source
Note the bolded section. Once again, the concept of the blessed Theotokos being sinless is theologoumenon. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. However, this is the teaching of the Church.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=9585.msg142157#msg142157 date=1311917123] It is indeed a difficult thing to fathom. Thanks for the information.
Why though? I agree that it takes a great deal of will power not to sin. But nothing is impossible with God. If one completely submits their will to God, it is possible to not sin, with His Grace. I believe the Baptist is also viewed as sinless in the Orthodox Church.
It is just hard to believe that St. Mary never sinned, let alone had a sinful thought! After bearing Christ, it isn't that difficult to believe. But before, as a young girl, serving in the temple, being raffled as a bride. . .harder to believe.
I have never heard that of St. John the Baptizer. He did send his disciples to confirm if Jesus was the Messiah. . .
I hate to look for flaws in our beloved saints, and this is not my intention, but I have just been drilled with the idea that Christ alone was without sin.
I know what you mean. However, I think it's important to realize, a thought in and of itself is not sinful. What makes it sinful is if one allows that thought to take hold and dwell on it. It's a progression, as St. James teaches, 'But a person is tempted when drawn away and enticed by his own lust. Then the lust, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, results in death.' (Jas. 1:14-15).
As for St. John the Baptist, I have always viewed his sending his disciples to Christ for their own benefit, not his. He knew who Christ was. However, because he cared for his disciples, and wanted them to follow Christ, he sent them to Christ on his behalf, as it were.
Thanks for your insight; all what you say makes perfect sense. However, I still have my reservations. But I think that reflects more on me than it does anything else.
Here is an excerpt from St. John Chrysostom's Homily 36 on the Gospel of St. Matthew regarding the Baptist:
Matt. XI. 1.
"And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding His twelve disciples, He departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities."
That is, after He had sent them, He proceeded to withdraw Himself, to give them room and opportunity to do what He had enjoined. For while He was present and healing, no one would be willing to approach them.
"Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Jesus, he sent two of his disciples, and asked Him, saying, Are you He that should come, or do we look for another?" Matthew 11:2-3
But Luke says, they also told John of the miracles, and then he sent them. Luke 7:18 However, this contains no matter of difficulty, but of consideration only; for this, among other things, indicates their jealousy towards Him.
But what follows is completely among the controverted points. Of what nature then is this? Their saying, "Are You He that should come, or do we look for another?" That is, he that knew Him before His miracles, he that had learned it of the Spirit, he that heard it of the Father, he who had proclaimed Him before all men; does he now send to learn of Him, whether it be Himself or no? And if yet thou did not know that it is surely He, how thinkest you yourself credible, affirming as thou dost concerning things, whereof you are ignorant? For he that is to bear witness to others, must be first worthy of credit himself. Did you not say, "I am not meet to loose the latchet of His shoe?" John 1:27 Did you not say, "I knew Him not, but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending and resting upon Him, the same is He which baptizes with the Holy Ghost?" John 1:33 Did you not see the Spirit in form of a dove? Did you not hear the voice? Did you not utterly forbid Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You?" Matthew 3:14 Did you not say even to your disciples, "He must increase, I must decrease?" John 3:30 Did you not teach all the people, that "He should baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire?" Matthew 3:11 and that He "is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world?" Did you not before His signs and miracles proclaim all these things? How then now, when He has been made manifest to all, and the fame of Him has gone out everywhere, and dead men have been raised, and devils driven away, and a display made of so great miracles, do you after this send to learn of Him?
What then is the fact? Were all these sayings a kind of fraud: a stage play and fables? Nay, who that has any understanding would say so? I say not, John, who leaped in the womb, who before his own birth proclaimed Him, the citizen of the wilderness, the exhibitor of the conversation of angels; but even though he were one of the common sort, and of them that are utterly outcast, he would not have hesitated, after so many testimonies, both on his own part and on the part of others.
Whence it is evident, that neither did he send as being himself in doubt, nor did he ask in ignorance. Since no one surely could say this, that though he knew it fully, yet on account of his prison he was become rather timid: for neither was he looking to be delivered therefrom, nor if he did look for it, would he have betrayed his duty to God, armed as he was against various kinds of death. For unless he had been prepared for this, he would not have evinced so great courage towards a whole people, practised in shedding blood of prophets; nor would he have rebuked that savage tyrant with so much boldness in the midst of the city and the forum, severely chiding him, as though he were a little child, in hearing of all men. And even if he were grown more timid, how was he not ashamed before his own disciples, in whose presence he had so often borne witness unto Him, but asked his question by them, which he should have done by others? And yet surely he knew full well, that they too were jealous of Christ, and desired to find some handle against Him. And how could he but be abashed before the Jewish people, in whose presence he had proclaimed such high things? Or what advantage accrued to him thereby, towards deliverance from his bonds? For not for Christ's sake had he been cast into prison, nor for having proclaimed His power, but for his own rebuke touching the unlawful marriage. And what child so silly, what person so frantic, but that so he would have put on himself their character?
2. What then is it which he is bringing about? For that it belongs not to John to have doubt hereupon, no nor to any ordinary person, nor even to one extremely foolish and frenzied; so much is evident from what we have said. And now we have only to add the solution.
For what intent then did he send to ask? John's disciples were starting aside from Jesus, and this surely any one may see, and they had always a jealous feeling towards Him. And it is plain, from what they said to their master: "He that was with you," it is said, "beyond Jordan, to whom you bore witness, behold, the same baptizes, and all men come unto Him." John 3:26 And again, "There arose a question between John's disciples and the Jews about purifying." And again they came unto Him, and said, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but Your disciples fast not?" Matthew 9:14 For as yet they knew not who Christ was, but imagining Jesus to be a mere man, but John greater than after the manner of man, were vexed at seeing the former held in estimation, but the latter, as he had said, now ceasing. And this hindered them from coming unto Him, their jealousy quite blocking up the access. Now so long as John was with them, he was exhorting them continually and instructing them, and not even so did he persuade them; but when he was now on the point of dying, he uses the more diligence: fearing as he did lest he might leave a foundation for bad doctrine, and they continue broken off from Christ. For as he was diligent even at first to bring to Christ all that pertained to himself; so on his failing to persuade them, now towards his end he does but exert the more zeal.
Now if he had said, "Go ye away unto Him, He is better than I," he would not have persuaded them, minded as they were not easily to be separated from him, but rather he would have been thought to say it out of modesty, and they would have been the more rivetted to him; or if he had held his peace, then again nothing was gained. What then does he? He waits to hear from them that Christ is working miracles, and not even so does he admonish them, nor does he send all, but some two (whom he perhaps knew to be more teachable than the rest); that the inquiry might be made without suspicion, in order that from His acts they might learn the difference between Jesus and himself. And he says, Go, and say, "Are you He that should come, or do we look for another?" Matthew 11:3
But Christ knowing the purpose of John, did not say, I am He; for this would again have offended the hearers, although this was what it naturally followed for Him to say, but He leaves them to learn it from His acts. For it says, when these had come to Him, then "He cured many." Luke 7:21 And yet what congruity was there, that being asked, "Are you He," He should say nothing to that, but should presently cure them that were sick; unless it had been His mind to establish this which I have mentioned? Because they of course would account the testimony of His deeds surer, and more above suspicion than that of His words.
Knowing therefore, as being God, the mind with which John had sent them, He straightway cured blind, lame, and many others; not to teach him (for how should He him that was convinced), but these that were doubting: and having healed them, He says,
"Go and show John again those things which you do hear and see; the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, and the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached unto them." Matthew 4:5 And he added, "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me;" implying that He knows even their unuttered thoughts. For if He had said, "I am He," both this would have offended them, as I have already said; and they would have thought, even if they had not spoken, much as the Jews said to Him, "You bear record of Yourself." Wherefore He says not this Himself, but leaves them to learn all from the miracles, freeing what He taught from suspicion, and making it plainer. Wherefore also He covertly added His reproof of them. That is, because they were "offended in Him," He by setting forth their case and leaving it to their own conscience alone, and by calling no witness of this His accusation, but only themselves that knew it all, did thus also draw them the more unto Himself, in saying, Blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. For indeed His secret meaning was of them when He said this.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142156#msg142156 date=1311916760] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote=Apocryphal Works on the Assumption of Mary]The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.
[...]
The apostles said all these things to the holy mother of God, why they had come, and in what way; and she stretched her hands to heaven and prayed, saying: I adore, and praise, and glorify Your much to be praised name, O Lord, because You have looked upon the lowliness of Your handmaiden, and because You that are mighty has done great things for me; and, behold, all generations shall count me blessed. Luke 1:48 And after the prayer she said to the apostles: Cast incense, and pray. And when they had prayed, there was thunder from heaven, and there came a fearful voice, as if of chariots; and, behold, a multitude of a host of angels and powers, and a voice, as if of the Son of man, was heard, and the seraphim in a circle round the house where the holy, spotless mother of God and virgin was lying, so that all who were in Bethlehem beheld all the wonderful things, and came to Jerusalem and reported all the wonderful things that had come to pass. And it came to pass, when the voice was heard, that the sun and the moon suddenly appeared about the house; and an assembly of the first-born saints stood beside the house where the mother of the Lord was lying, for her honour and glory. And I beheld also that many signs came to pass, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, lepers cleansed, and those possessed by unclean spirits cured; and every one who was under disease and sickness, touching the outside of the wall of the house where she was lying, cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ our God, have mercy upon us. And they were straightway cured. And great multitudes out of every country living in Jerusalem for the sake of prayer, having heard of the signs that had come to pass in Bethlehem through the mother of the Lord, came to the place seeking the cure of various diseases, which also they obtained. And there was joy unspeakable on that day among the multitude of those who had been cured, as well as of those who looked on, glorifying Christ our God and His mother. And all Jerusalem from Bethlehem kept festival with psalms and spiritual songs.
And the priests of the Jews, along with their people, were astonished at the things which had come to pass; and being moved with the heaviest hatred, and again with frivolous reasoning, having made an assembly, they determine to send against the holy mother of God and the holy apostles who were there in Bethlehem. And accordingly the multitude of the Jews, having directed their course to Bethlehem, when at the distance of one mile it came to pass that they beheld a frightful vision, and their feet were held fast; and after this they returned to their fellow-countrymen, and reported all the frightful vision to the chief priests. And they, still more boiling with rage, go to the procurator, crying out and saying: The nation of the Jews has been ruined by this woman; chase her from Bethlehem and the province of Jerusalem. And the procurator, astonished at the wonderful things, said to them: I will chase her neither from Bethlehem nor from any other place. And the Jews continued crying out, and adjuring him by the health of Tiberius Cæsar to bring the apostles out of Bethlehem. And if you do not do so, we shall report it to the Cæsar. Accordingly, being compelled, he sends a tribune of the soldiers against the apostles to Bethlehem. And the Holy Spirit says to the apostles and the mother of the Lord: Behold, the procurator has sent a tribune against you, the Jews having made an uproar. Go forth therefore from Bethlehem, and fear not: for, behold, by a cloud I shall bring you to Jerusalem; for the power of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is with you. The apostles therefore rose up immediately, and went forth from the house, carrying the bed of the Lady the mother of God, and directed their course to Jerusalem; and immediately, as the Holy Spirit had said, being lifted up by a cloud, they were found in Jerusalem in the house of the Lady. And they stood up, and for five days made an unceasing singing of praise. And when the tribune came to Bethlehem, and found there neither the mother of the Lord nor the apostles, he laid hold of the Bethlehemites, saying to them: Did you not come telling the procurator and the priests all the signs and wonders that had come to pass, and how the apostles had come out of every country? Where are they, then? Come, go to the procurator at Jerusalem. For the tribune did not know of the departure of the apostles and the Lord's mother to Jerusalem. The tribune then, having taken the Bethlehemites, went in to the procurator, saying that he had found no one. And after five days it was known to the procurator, and the priests, and all the city, that the Lord's mother was in her own house in Jerusalem, along with the apostles, from the signs and wonders that came to pass there. And a multitude of men and women and virgins came together, and cried out: Holy virgin, that brought forth Christ our God, do not forget the generation of men. And when these things came to pass, the people of the Jews, with the priests also, being the more moved with hatred, took wood and fire, and came up, wishing to burn the house where the Lord's mother was living with the apostles. And the procurator stood looking at the sight from afar off. And when the people of the Jews came to the door of the house, behold, suddenly a power of fire coming forth from within, by means of an angel, burnt up a great multitude of the Jews. And there was great fear throughout all the city; and they glorified God, who had been born of her. And when the procurator saw what had come to pass, he cried out to all the people, saying: Truly he who was born of the virgin, whom you have thought of driving away, is the Son of God; for these signs are those of the true God. And there was a division among the Jews; and many believed in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in consequence of the signs that had come to pass.
And after all these wonderful things had come to pass through the mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary the mother of the Lord, while we the apostles were with her in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit said to us: You know that on the Lord's day the good news was brought to the Virgin Mary by the archangel Gabriel; and on the Lord's day the Saviour was born in Bethlehem; and on the Lord's day the children of Jerusalem came forth with palm branches to meet him, saying, Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord; and on the Lord's day He rose from the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come to judge the living and the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come out of heaven, to the glory and honour of the departure of the holy glorious virgin who brought Him forth. And on the same Lord's day the mother of the Lord says to the apostles: Cast incense, because Christ is coming with a host of angels; and, behold, Christ is at hand, sitting on a throne of cherubim. And while we were all praying, there appeared innumerable multitudes of angels, and the Lord mounted upon cherubim in great power; and, behold, a stream of light coming to the holy virgin, because of the presence of her only-begotten Son, and all the powers of the heavens fell down and adored Him. And the Lord, speaking to His mother, said: Mary. And she answered and said: Here am I, Lord. And the Lord said to her: Grieve not, but let your heart rejoice and be glad; for you have found grace to behold the glory given to me by my Father. And the holy mother of God looked up, and saw in Him a glory which it is impossible for the mouth of man to speak of, or to apprehend. And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time your precious body will be transferred to paradise, and your holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels—and other things besides. And the mother of the Lord answered and said to him: Lay Your right hand upon me, O Lord, and bless me. And the Lord stretched forth His undefiled right hand, and blessed her. And she laid hold of His undefiled right hand, and kissed it, saying: I adore this right hand, which created the heaven and the earth; and I call upon Your much to be praised name Christ, O God, the King of the ages, the only-begotten of the Father, to receive Your handmaid, Thou who deigned to be brought forth by me, in a low estate, to save the race of men through Your ineffable dispensation; do Thou bestow Your aid upon every man calling upon, or praying to, or naming the name of, Your handmaid. And while she is saying this, the apostles, having gone up to her feet and adored, say: O mother of the Lord, leave a blessing to the world, since you are going away from it. For you have blessed it, and raised it up when it was ruined, by bringing forth the Light of the world. And the mother of the Lord prayed, and in her prayer spoke thus: O God, who through Your great goodness hast sent from the heavens Your only-begotten Son to dwell in my humble body, who hast deigned to be born of me, humble as I am, have mercy upon the world, and every soul that calls upon Your name. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord, King of the heavens, Son of the living God, accept every man who calls upon Your name, that Your birth may be glorified. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord Jesus Christ, who art all-powerful in heaven and on earth, in this appeal I implore Your holy name; in every time and place where there is made mention of my name, make that place holy, and glorify those that glorify You through my name, accepting of such persons all their offering, and all their supplication, and all their prayer. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let your heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens. And the Lord turned and said to Peter: The time has come to begin the singing of the hymn. And Peter having begun the singing of the hymn, all the powers of the heavens responded with the Alleluiah. And then the face of the mother of the Lord shone brighter than the light, and she rose up and blessed each of the apostles with her own hand, and all gave glory to God; and the Lord stretched forth His undefiled hands, and received her holy and blameless soul. And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed are you among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration; and the twelve apostles put her precious and holy body upon a couch, and carried it. And, behold, while they were carrying her, a certain well-born Hebrew, Jephonias by name, running against the body, put his hands upon the couch; and, behold, an angel of the Lord by invisible power, with a sword of fire, cut off his two hands from his shoulders, and made them hang about the couch, lifted up in the air. And at this miracle which had come to pass all the people of the Jews who beheld it cried out: Verily, He that was brought forth by you is the true God, O mother of God, ever-virgin Mary. And Jephonias himself, when Peter ordered him, that the wonderful things of God might be showed forth, stood up behind the couch, and cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ who is God, have mercy upon me. And Peter turned and said to him: In the name of Him who was born of her, your hands which have been taken away from you, will be fixed on again. And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
And when this miracle had been done, the apostles carried the couch, and laid down her precious and holy body in Gethsemane in a new tomb. And, behold, a perfume of sweet savour came forth out of the holy sepulchre of our Lady the mother of God; and for three days the voices of invisible angels were heard glorifying Christ our God, who had been born of her. And when the third day was ended, the voices were no longer heard; and from that time forth all knew that her spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise.
And after it had been transferred, behold, we see Elisabeth the mother of St. John the Baptist, and Anna the mother of the Lady, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and David, singing the Alleluiah, and all the choirs of the saints adoring the holy relics of the mother of the Lord, and the place full of light, than which light nothing could be more brilliant, and an abundance of perfume in that place to which her precious and holy body had been transferred in paradise, and the melody of those praising Him who had been born of her— sweet melody, of which there is no satiety, such as is given to virgins, and them only, to hear. We apostles, therefore, having beheld the sudden precious translation of her holy body, glorified God, who had shown us His wonders at the departure of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose prayers and good offices may we all be deemed worthy to receive, under her shelter, and support, and protection, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, glorifying in every time and place her only-begotten Son, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen. Source
Note the bolded section. Once again, the concept of the blessed Theotokos being sinless is theologoumenon. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. However, this is the teaching of the Church.
we're all 'blameless' as long as we are covered by the blood of Christ. There's many instances in the syniexar that refer the souls of saints as blameless as well. does that mean that they are without sin as well? This is just our language as Orthodox
Comments
did you mean to reply to mabsoota's question?.. if so, what does the liturgy have to do with Romans 5 ?.. could someone offer a theological answer please? i am really interested. thank you.
Read St. John Chrysostom's Homily on Romans. In particular Homily 9 and Homily 10.
My comment was the general one. W often forget to council our ritual books that are basically a confession of the Curch's belief in a prayer form. The liturgy of baptism contains nothing of the original sin idea. However, it speaks of the fallen nature and its renewal.
I find Fr. Peter,s answers comrehensive. Please read the liturgy of baptism.
Thanks
Psalm 51
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Just a short note on this verse; our beautiful brothers who do believe in original sin felt compelled to embellish this verse by changing the word amartias (sins plural) as it is recorded to sin singular. Hence this verse refers to our mothers as sinners not any specific sin of our mothers during our conception. People who want sin to be something biologically transfered corrupt the bible in this way.
The problem with misunderstanding original sin is the huge impact has on our repentance which makes this error most unacceptable. I think that Fr Peter has done a great job of explaining and I tentatively hope to add some words which I think describe how this error is inferior to the traditional teaching of the Church. The problem of sin is rooted in the corruption which now exists in nature and we are all active participants in, its kind of like a good analogy which C.S.Lewis gave. Some people think Christians are morbid and selfish people for spending all their time focusing on their sins - when in the tradition of the world they should be thinking of the bigger problems in life like how to have world peace or solving world debt and hunger. He counters by saying what good would a united nations soldier be if he was charged with keeping his rifle clean so that he was ready to go on his next peace keeping mission. If the solder was to reply to his superior questioning why he was bothering to clean his rifle when there are all these problems in the world the dilema of original sin becomes clearer.
A soldier with a dirty gun is no good to the united nations or any of its causes and it is the same with us; it is our personal sins - all of us - that make the world what it is. Each time we do seemingly small evil acts like talking back or seething internally with anger we contribute and interact with the evil in the world. It is our responsibility first and foremost to make sure that our hearts and minds are clean and as people with an illness it is impossible for one who is sick to heal themselves; they need a healer who is not prone to this illness to come to them.
The world of sin which we live in is the result of our blinkeredness; that we have an illness which not only makes us ill but it also stops us from being to see how ill we actually are. If I had not heard the commandments of Christ and learned about them from my parents I would still be living in darkness and blindness. Practical examples of how this are so are revealed gradually in the Gospels - the apostles knew that people live with this sense of blinkeredness so they wrote the Gospels as a way of showing how Christ needed to puncture through our consciousness; what we knew of the world around us as a way to demonstrate to us - gradually - who He is, what the situation we're living is, and what we need to do about it. A good short example of this is the samaritan woman - Christ very gently revealed to her a little bit about who He was and the situation she was in. He did it very gently and kindly because He knew that she wouldn't be able to know about all her sins at once this short dialogue is a way of our heavenly physician bringing remedy to the problem of sin in one persons life and also going back our UN analogy giving her something which genuinely has the power to transform the world rather than destroy it.
More nice examples of it come from St Gregory of Nyssa's treatise on prayer; he says that we rush to go quickly to our worldly endeavours like work or the sales at our favourite shop. In doing this we hope to get in early and hold sway and have an advantage over our neighbour and we twist the Lord's commandment; we turn the one we're commanded to live along with God into our rival. St Gregory says that we must involve God in all our endeavours so that we don't live under this misapprehension that we need to beat our neighbours in our worldly ventures to prosper. The real remedy is that when we put ourselves into the hands of God he blesses our work and so we can prosper without dishonesty and even small amounts of time dedicated to the work he have at hand will lead us to prosper. This demonstrates how blinkered we are by trusting ourselves rather than God and contributing to not just the evil in our hearts but in our communities and society when we rival and war with one another. We are also blind to how these simple small acts of competition in financial matters transform us from neighbours to rivals.
Another good example from the gospels which Fr Thomas Hopko from AFR talked about what the story of the man legion and he mentions in this that there are two kinds of demon possession. There is the first obvious example when the man is tormented bitterly and he does all kinds of things to harm himself. The second less obvious is the normal people of the city who told Christ to leave after He performed this miracle. Their demon possession was that they were doing nothing more than being stuck in the status quo - they liked the world the way it way and to see someone like Christ come and change it might mean them losing their advantage or control and so they rejected Him because they didn't know He was there to deliver them for death and destruction which was deeply rooted into the daily lives that they were living.
Closer to home, the reason that our children will become sinners is that in due time when we marry and have children is not because of the sin of a man so long ago - more practically speaking it will happen because of things closer to home, things which sadly WE will teach them.
On the subject of biology I think - this is my personal inference from the Gospels so I am quite happy to be wrong about this but what I think the fathers and bible are trying to teach us is that our normal mortal natures with all their biological desires such as human appetites, sexual desires and so on by themselves without the sanctification of God will lead us into sin. I think that this is the reason that we say through the act of one man we all became sinners because when corruption entered into the world the authority we had over our own nature in Christ was taken from us and we were left to the miserable whims of our nature we would suffer for it; the only way we can have this peace back is through, repentance, struggle and sacramental life.
Please pray for me,
LiD
[quote author=lightening link=topic=9585.msg140108#msg140108 date=1308779284]
sorry, i didn't understand your answer. and, may i add, it is not a theological one...
Is this a joke? A commentary on Romans 5 by a renowned Church Father is not a theological one? Seriously? Then you clearly don't know what 'theological' means. And if you don't understand, that's not my problem.
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
In Pope Shenouda's Book Adam and Eve he says:
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
... and with all due respect, what is the difference between 'adam's fallen nature' and 'our sinful nature'????...
is 'falling' not the same thing as 'sinning'???...
why do we have to play around with words?..
Your question isn't entirely clear. Can you rephrase it?
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg141156#msg141156 date=1310251101]
In Pope Shenouda's Book Adam and Eve he says:
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
... and with all due respect, what is the difference between 'adam's fallen nature' and 'our sinful nature'????...
is 'falling' not the same thing as 'sinning'???...
why do we have to play around with words?..
Fallen and sinful are two words that mean the same thing: the tendency to sin.
No playing on words.
Look at Romans 7:5, 8:3
I prefer 'fallen nature' over 'sinful nature'. The reason is for the very issue lightening raises: 'falling' does not necessarily correlate to 'sinning'. For instance, the blessed Theotokos was sinless and yet possessed a fallen nature. She was certainly prone to sin, but never willfully sinned. Maybe that's just me.
I guess what I am trying to say is the term "sinful nature" is a biblical one and is not playing of words as lightning suggested.
Our nature is a fallen one yet through grace it was elevated.
Our nature is sinful yet we have received grace not to sin.
I see what you're saying. Thanks.
+Irini nem ehmot
Wow Cephas, you gave some great responses!
Good one; this ought to get you some attention from random people on the internets for sure!
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg141156#msg141156 date=1310251101]
In Pope Shenouda's Book Adam and Eve he says:
what we inherit or what is transmitted to us is Adam’s fallen human nature and NOT his actual sin.
... and with all due respect, what is the difference between 'adam's fallen nature' and 'our sinful nature'????...
is 'falling' not the same thing as 'sinning'???...
why do we have to play around with words?..
nope. there's a crucial difference
saying we inherited adam's sin, implies that we would be punished for something adam did.
saying that we inherited his fallen nature, implies that his sin caused a certain negetive change in him. Unforutunatly for all of us, we inherit this negative change, and as a result of it, we sin. thus any punishment we might recieve is because of stuff we did.
Also, guys, I'd just like to note that the doctrine that says St. Mary is without sin is a Catholic doctrine. not ours. Our church says that there's no one without sin except for Christ himself. That does not take away our reverence to the holy Theotokos.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142119#msg142119 date=1311896278]
Also, guys, I'd just like to note that the doctrine that says St. Mary is without sin is a Catholic doctrine. not ours. Our church says that there's no one without sin except for Christ himself. That does not take away our reverence to the holy Theotokos.
Incorrect. You are thinking of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, where the blessed Theotokos is born without Original Sin (a concept we Orthodox reject). However, the sinlessness of the blessed Virgin is unanimously declared by the Church. Have a look at Father Tadros Malaty's book St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept. In particular I refer you to pages 63-66.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142119#msg142119 date=1311896278]
Also, guys, I'd just like to note that the doctrine that says St. Mary is without sin is a Catholic doctrine. not ours. Our church says that there's no one without sin except for Christ himself. That does not take away our reverence to the holy Theotokos.
Incorrect. You are thinking of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, where the blessed Theotokos is born without Original Sin (a concept we Orthodox reject). However, the sinlessness of the blessed Virgin is unanimously declared by the Church. Have a look at Father Tadros Malaty's book St. Mary in the Orthodox Concept. In particular I refer you to pages 63-66.
Fr. Tadros' comments seem inconclusive, he presents a few quotes in support of the idea that St. Mary was sinless (2 of which are ambiguous). Even more startling is the fact that those who opposed to this view are giants in the Coptic OC (Irenaeus, Origen, John Chrysostom), whereas the citations in favor of this view aren't.
I wouldn't classify all those saints as 'giants'. Also, they are still human and are prone to error. If Fr. Malaty says that they are in disagreement with the Early Church, that should be enough to show that the sinlessness of St. Mary is Orthodox theologoumenon.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
I wouldn't classify all those saints as 'giants'. Also, they are still human and are prone to error. If Fr. Malaty says that they are in disagreement with the Early Church, that should be enough to show that the sinlessness of St. Mary is Orthodox theologoumenon.
But then again, Fr. Tadros is human. ;)
I am not in disagreement with what Fr. Tadros says per se, I just don't think he provided enough evidence.
Yes. But the Early Church isn't. ;)
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142152#msg142152 date=1311915290]
baba shenouda wrote a book on the same subject. I'll look at it and tell u what he says.
The Holy Virgin St. Mary by H.H. Pope Shenouda III
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Yes. But the Early Church isn't. ;)
Your post reads:
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142150#msg142150 date=1311914587]
If Fr. Malaty says that they are in disagreement with the Early Church, that should be enough to show that the sinlessness of St. Mary is Orthodox theologoumenon.
This is not the Early church.
--Again, a few quotes out of context cannot tell me what the Early Church believed. More concrete evidence would be edifying.
BTW, Pope Shenouda's pamphlet (the one you linked) never says that St. Mary is without sin. . .
[quote=Apocryphal Works on the Assumption of Mary]The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.
[...]
The apostles said all these things to the holy mother of God, why they had come, and in what way; and she stretched her hands to heaven and prayed, saying: I adore, and praise, and glorify Your much to be praised name, O Lord, because You have looked upon the lowliness of Your handmaiden, and because You that are mighty has done great things for me; and, behold, all generations shall count me blessed. Luke 1:48 And after the prayer she said to the apostles: Cast incense, and pray. And when they had prayed, there was thunder from heaven, and there came a fearful voice, as if of chariots; and, behold, a multitude of a host of angels and powers, and a voice, as if of the Son of man, was heard, and the seraphim in a circle round the house where the holy, spotless mother of God and virgin was lying, so that all who were in Bethlehem beheld all the wonderful things, and came to Jerusalem and reported all the wonderful things that had come to pass. And it came to pass, when the voice was heard, that the sun and the moon suddenly appeared about the house; and an assembly of the first-born saints stood beside the house where the mother of the Lord was lying, for her honour and glory. And I beheld also that many signs came to pass, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, lepers cleansed, and those possessed by unclean spirits cured; and every one who was under disease and sickness, touching the outside of the wall of the house where she was lying, cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ our God, have mercy upon us. And they were straightway cured. And great multitudes out of every country living in Jerusalem for the sake of prayer, having heard of the signs that had come to pass in Bethlehem through the mother of the Lord, came to the place seeking the cure of various diseases, which also they obtained. And there was joy unspeakable on that day among the multitude of those who had been cured, as well as of those who looked on, glorifying Christ our God and His mother. And all Jerusalem from Bethlehem kept festival with psalms and spiritual songs.
And the priests of the Jews, along with their people, were astonished at the things which had come to pass; and being moved with the heaviest hatred, and again with frivolous reasoning, having made an assembly, they determine to send against the holy mother of God and the holy apostles who were there in Bethlehem. And accordingly the multitude of the Jews, having directed their course to Bethlehem, when at the distance of one mile it came to pass that they beheld a frightful vision, and their feet were held fast; and after this they returned to their fellow-countrymen, and reported all the frightful vision to the chief priests. And they, still more boiling with rage, go to the procurator, crying out and saying: The nation of the Jews has been ruined by this woman; chase her from Bethlehem and the province of Jerusalem. And the procurator, astonished at the wonderful things, said to them: I will chase her neither from Bethlehem nor from any other place. And the Jews continued crying out, and adjuring him by the health of Tiberius Cæsar to bring the apostles out of Bethlehem. And if you do not do so, we shall report it to the Cæsar. Accordingly, being compelled, he sends a tribune of the soldiers against the apostles to Bethlehem. And the Holy Spirit says to the apostles and the mother of the Lord: Behold, the procurator has sent a tribune against you, the Jews having made an uproar. Go forth therefore from Bethlehem, and fear not: for, behold, by a cloud I shall bring you to Jerusalem; for the power of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is with you. The apostles therefore rose up immediately, and went forth from the house, carrying the bed of the Lady the mother of God, and directed their course to Jerusalem; and immediately, as the Holy Spirit had said, being lifted up by a cloud, they were found in Jerusalem in the house of the Lady. And they stood up, and for five days made an unceasing singing of praise. And when the tribune came to Bethlehem, and found there neither the mother of the Lord nor the apostles, he laid hold of the Bethlehemites, saying to them: Did you not come telling the procurator and the priests all the signs and wonders that had come to pass, and how the apostles had come out of every country? Where are they, then? Come, go to the procurator at Jerusalem. For the tribune did not know of the departure of the apostles and the Lord's mother to Jerusalem. The tribune then, having taken the Bethlehemites, went in to the procurator, saying that he had found no one. And after five days it was known to the procurator, and the priests, and all the city, that the Lord's mother was in her own house in Jerusalem, along with the apostles, from the signs and wonders that came to pass there. And a multitude of men and women and virgins came together, and cried out: Holy virgin, that brought forth Christ our God, do not forget the generation of men. And when these things came to pass, the people of the Jews, with the priests also, being the more moved with hatred, took wood and fire, and came up, wishing to burn the house where the Lord's mother was living with the apostles. And the procurator stood looking at the sight from afar off. And when the people of the Jews came to the door of the house, behold, suddenly a power of fire coming forth from within, by means of an angel, burnt up a great multitude of the Jews. And there was great fear throughout all the city; and they glorified God, who had been born of her. And when the procurator saw what had come to pass, he cried out to all the people, saying: Truly he who was born of the virgin, whom you have thought of driving away, is the Son of God; for these signs are those of the true God. And there was a division among the Jews; and many believed in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in consequence of the signs that had come to pass.
And after all these wonderful things had come to pass through the mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary the mother of the Lord, while we the apostles were with her in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit said to us: You know that on the Lord's day the good news was brought to the Virgin Mary by the archangel Gabriel; and on the Lord's day the Saviour was born in Bethlehem; and on the Lord's day the children of Jerusalem came forth with palm branches to meet him, saying, Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord; and on the Lord's day He rose from the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come to judge the living and the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come out of heaven, to the glory and honour of the departure of the holy glorious virgin who brought Him forth. And on the same Lord's day the mother of the Lord says to the apostles: Cast incense, because Christ is coming with a host of angels; and, behold, Christ is at hand, sitting on a throne of cherubim. And while we were all praying, there appeared innumerable multitudes of angels, and the Lord mounted upon cherubim in great power; and, behold, a stream of light coming to the holy virgin, because of the presence of her only-begotten Son, and all the powers of the heavens fell down and adored Him. And the Lord, speaking to His mother, said: Mary. And she answered and said: Here am I, Lord. And the Lord said to her: Grieve not, but let your heart rejoice and be glad; for you have found grace to behold the glory given to me by my Father. And the holy mother of God looked up, and saw in Him a glory which it is impossible for the mouth of man to speak of, or to apprehend. And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time your precious body will be transferred to paradise, and your holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels—and other things besides. And the mother of the Lord answered and said to him: Lay Your right hand upon me, O Lord, and bless me. And the Lord stretched forth His undefiled right hand, and blessed her. And she laid hold of His undefiled right hand, and kissed it, saying: I adore this right hand, which created the heaven and the earth; and I call upon Your much to be praised name Christ, O God, the King of the ages, the only-begotten of the Father, to receive Your handmaid, Thou who deigned to be brought forth by me, in a low estate, to save the race of men through Your ineffable dispensation; do Thou bestow Your aid upon every man calling upon, or praying to, or naming the name of, Your handmaid. And while she is saying this, the apostles, having gone up to her feet and adored, say: O mother of the Lord, leave a blessing to the world, since you are going away from it. For you have blessed it, and raised it up when it was ruined, by bringing forth the Light of the world. And the mother of the Lord prayed, and in her prayer spoke thus: O God, who through Your great goodness hast sent from the heavens Your only-begotten Son to dwell in my humble body, who hast deigned to be born of me, humble as I am, have mercy upon the world, and every soul that calls upon Your name. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord, King of the heavens, Son of the living God, accept every man who calls upon Your name, that Your birth may be glorified. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord Jesus Christ, who art all-powerful in heaven and on earth, in this appeal I implore Your holy name; in every time and place where there is made mention of my name, make that place holy, and glorify those that glorify You through my name, accepting of such persons all their offering, and all their supplication, and all their prayer. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let your heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens. And the Lord turned and said to Peter: The time has come to begin the singing of the hymn. And Peter having begun the singing of the hymn, all the powers of the heavens responded with the Alleluiah. And then the face of the mother of the Lord shone brighter than the light, and she rose up and blessed each of the apostles with her own hand, and all gave glory to God; and the Lord stretched forth His undefiled hands, and received her holy and blameless soul. And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed are you among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration; and the twelve apostles put her precious and holy body upon a couch, and carried it. And, behold, while they were carrying her, a certain well-born Hebrew, Jephonias by name, running against the body, put his hands upon the couch; and, behold, an angel of the Lord by invisible power, with a sword of fire, cut off his two hands from his shoulders, and made them hang about the couch, lifted up in the air. And at this miracle which had come to pass all the people of the Jews who beheld it cried out: Verily, He that was brought forth by you is the true God, O mother of God, ever-virgin Mary. And Jephonias himself, when Peter ordered him, that the wonderful things of God might be showed forth, stood up behind the couch, and cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ who is God, have mercy upon me. And Peter turned and said to him: In the name of Him who was born of her, your hands which have been taken away from you, will be fixed on again. And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
And when this miracle had been done, the apostles carried the couch, and laid down her precious and holy body in Gethsemane in a new tomb. And, behold, a perfume of sweet savour came forth out of the holy sepulchre of our Lady the mother of God; and for three days the voices of invisible angels were heard glorifying Christ our God, who had been born of her. And when the third day was ended, the voices were no longer heard; and from that time forth all knew that her spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise.
And after it had been transferred, behold, we see Elisabeth the mother of St. John the Baptist, and Anna the mother of the Lady, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and David, singing the Alleluiah, and all the choirs of the saints adoring the holy relics of the mother of the Lord, and the place full of light, than which light nothing could be more brilliant, and an abundance of perfume in that place to which her precious and holy body had been transferred in paradise, and the melody of those praising Him who had been born of her— sweet melody, of which there is no satiety, such as is given to virgins, and them only, to hear. We apostles, therefore, having beheld the sudden precious translation of her holy body, glorified God, who had shown us His wonders at the departure of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose prayers and good offices may we all be deemed worthy to receive, under her shelter, and support, and protection, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, glorifying in every time and place her only-begotten Son, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen.
Source
Note the bolded section. Once again, the concept of the blessed Theotokos being sinless is theologoumenon. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. However, this is the teaching of the Church.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=9585.msg142157#msg142157 date=1311917123]
It is indeed a difficult thing to fathom. Thanks for the information.
Why though? I agree that it takes a great deal of will power not to sin. But nothing is impossible with God. If one completely submits their will to God, it is possible to not sin, with His Grace. I believe the Baptist is also viewed as sinless in the Orthodox Church.
I have never heard that of St. John the Baptizer. He did send his disciples to confirm if Jesus was the Messiah. . .
I hate to look for flaws in our beloved saints, and this is not my intention, but I have just been drilled with the idea that Christ alone was without sin.
I know what you mean. However, I think it's important to realize, a thought in and of itself is not sinful. What makes it sinful is if one allows that thought to take hold and dwell on it. It's a progression, as St. James teaches, 'But a person is tempted when drawn away and enticed by his own lust. Then the lust, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, results in death.' (Jas. 1:14-15).
As for St. John the Baptist, I have always viewed his sending his disciples to Christ for their own benefit, not his. He knew who Christ was. However, because he cared for his disciples, and wanted them to follow Christ, he sent them to Christ on his behalf, as it were.
Here is an excerpt from St. John Chrysostom's Homily 36 on the Gospel of St. Matthew regarding the Baptist: Source
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote=Apocryphal Works on the Assumption of Mary]The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.
[...]
The apostles said all these things to the holy mother of God, why they had come, and in what way; and she stretched her hands to heaven and prayed, saying: I adore, and praise, and glorify Your much to be praised name, O Lord, because You have looked upon the lowliness of Your handmaiden, and because You that are mighty has done great things for me; and, behold, all generations shall count me blessed. Luke 1:48 And after the prayer she said to the apostles: Cast incense, and pray. And when they had prayed, there was thunder from heaven, and there came a fearful voice, as if of chariots; and, behold, a multitude of a host of angels and powers, and a voice, as if of the Son of man, was heard, and the seraphim in a circle round the house where the holy, spotless mother of God and virgin was lying, so that all who were in Bethlehem beheld all the wonderful things, and came to Jerusalem and reported all the wonderful things that had come to pass. And it came to pass, when the voice was heard, that the sun and the moon suddenly appeared about the house; and an assembly of the first-born saints stood beside the house where the mother of the Lord was lying, for her honour and glory. And I beheld also that many signs came to pass, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, lepers cleansed, and those possessed by unclean spirits cured; and every one who was under disease and sickness, touching the outside of the wall of the house where she was lying, cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ our God, have mercy upon us. And they were straightway cured. And great multitudes out of every country living in Jerusalem for the sake of prayer, having heard of the signs that had come to pass in Bethlehem through the mother of the Lord, came to the place seeking the cure of various diseases, which also they obtained. And there was joy unspeakable on that day among the multitude of those who had been cured, as well as of those who looked on, glorifying Christ our God and His mother. And all Jerusalem from Bethlehem kept festival with psalms and spiritual songs.
And the priests of the Jews, along with their people, were astonished at the things which had come to pass; and being moved with the heaviest hatred, and again with frivolous reasoning, having made an assembly, they determine to send against the holy mother of God and the holy apostles who were there in Bethlehem. And accordingly the multitude of the Jews, having directed their course to Bethlehem, when at the distance of one mile it came to pass that they beheld a frightful vision, and their feet were held fast; and after this they returned to their fellow-countrymen, and reported all the frightful vision to the chief priests. And they, still more boiling with rage, go to the procurator, crying out and saying: The nation of the Jews has been ruined by this woman; chase her from Bethlehem and the province of Jerusalem. And the procurator, astonished at the wonderful things, said to them: I will chase her neither from Bethlehem nor from any other place. And the Jews continued crying out, and adjuring him by the health of Tiberius Cæsar to bring the apostles out of Bethlehem. And if you do not do so, we shall report it to the Cæsar. Accordingly, being compelled, he sends a tribune of the soldiers against the apostles to Bethlehem. And the Holy Spirit says to the apostles and the mother of the Lord: Behold, the procurator has sent a tribune against you, the Jews having made an uproar. Go forth therefore from Bethlehem, and fear not: for, behold, by a cloud I shall bring you to Jerusalem; for the power of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is with you. The apostles therefore rose up immediately, and went forth from the house, carrying the bed of the Lady the mother of God, and directed their course to Jerusalem; and immediately, as the Holy Spirit had said, being lifted up by a cloud, they were found in Jerusalem in the house of the Lady. And they stood up, and for five days made an unceasing singing of praise. And when the tribune came to Bethlehem, and found there neither the mother of the Lord nor the apostles, he laid hold of the Bethlehemites, saying to them: Did you not come telling the procurator and the priests all the signs and wonders that had come to pass, and how the apostles had come out of every country? Where are they, then? Come, go to the procurator at Jerusalem. For the tribune did not know of the departure of the apostles and the Lord's mother to Jerusalem. The tribune then, having taken the Bethlehemites, went in to the procurator, saying that he had found no one. And after five days it was known to the procurator, and the priests, and all the city, that the Lord's mother was in her own house in Jerusalem, along with the apostles, from the signs and wonders that came to pass there. And a multitude of men and women and virgins came together, and cried out: Holy virgin, that brought forth Christ our God, do not forget the generation of men. And when these things came to pass, the people of the Jews, with the priests also, being the more moved with hatred, took wood and fire, and came up, wishing to burn the house where the Lord's mother was living with the apostles. And the procurator stood looking at the sight from afar off. And when the people of the Jews came to the door of the house, behold, suddenly a power of fire coming forth from within, by means of an angel, burnt up a great multitude of the Jews. And there was great fear throughout all the city; and they glorified God, who had been born of her. And when the procurator saw what had come to pass, he cried out to all the people, saying: Truly he who was born of the virgin, whom you have thought of driving away, is the Son of God; for these signs are those of the true God. And there was a division among the Jews; and many believed in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in consequence of the signs that had come to pass.
And after all these wonderful things had come to pass through the mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary the mother of the Lord, while we the apostles were with her in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit said to us: You know that on the Lord's day the good news was brought to the Virgin Mary by the archangel Gabriel; and on the Lord's day the Saviour was born in Bethlehem; and on the Lord's day the children of Jerusalem came forth with palm branches to meet him, saying, Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord; and on the Lord's day He rose from the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come to judge the living and the dead; and on the Lord's day He will come out of heaven, to the glory and honour of the departure of the holy glorious virgin who brought Him forth. And on the same Lord's day the mother of the Lord says to the apostles: Cast incense, because Christ is coming with a host of angels; and, behold, Christ is at hand, sitting on a throne of cherubim. And while we were all praying, there appeared innumerable multitudes of angels, and the Lord mounted upon cherubim in great power; and, behold, a stream of light coming to the holy virgin, because of the presence of her only-begotten Son, and all the powers of the heavens fell down and adored Him. And the Lord, speaking to His mother, said: Mary. And she answered and said: Here am I, Lord. And the Lord said to her: Grieve not, but let your heart rejoice and be glad; for you have found grace to behold the glory given to me by my Father. And the holy mother of God looked up, and saw in Him a glory which it is impossible for the mouth of man to speak of, or to apprehend. And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time your precious body will be transferred to paradise, and your holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels—and other things besides. And the mother of the Lord answered and said to him: Lay Your right hand upon me, O Lord, and bless me. And the Lord stretched forth His undefiled right hand, and blessed her. And she laid hold of His undefiled right hand, and kissed it, saying: I adore this right hand, which created the heaven and the earth; and I call upon Your much to be praised name Christ, O God, the King of the ages, the only-begotten of the Father, to receive Your handmaid, Thou who deigned to be brought forth by me, in a low estate, to save the race of men through Your ineffable dispensation; do Thou bestow Your aid upon every man calling upon, or praying to, or naming the name of, Your handmaid. And while she is saying this, the apostles, having gone up to her feet and adored, say: O mother of the Lord, leave a blessing to the world, since you are going away from it. For you have blessed it, and raised it up when it was ruined, by bringing forth the Light of the world. And the mother of the Lord prayed, and in her prayer spoke thus: O God, who through Your great goodness hast sent from the heavens Your only-begotten Son to dwell in my humble body, who hast deigned to be born of me, humble as I am, have mercy upon the world, and every soul that calls upon Your name. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord, King of the heavens, Son of the living God, accept every man who calls upon Your name, that Your birth may be glorified. And again she prayed, and said: O Lord Jesus Christ, who art all-powerful in heaven and on earth, in this appeal I implore Your holy name; in every time and place where there is made mention of my name, make that place holy, and glorify those that glorify You through my name, accepting of such persons all their offering, and all their supplication, and all their prayer. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let your heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens. And the Lord turned and said to Peter: The time has come to begin the singing of the hymn. And Peter having begun the singing of the hymn, all the powers of the heavens responded with the Alleluiah. And then the face of the mother of the Lord shone brighter than the light, and she rose up and blessed each of the apostles with her own hand, and all gave glory to God; and the Lord stretched forth His undefiled hands, and received her holy and blameless soul. And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed are you among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration; and the twelve apostles put her precious and holy body upon a couch, and carried it. And, behold, while they were carrying her, a certain well-born Hebrew, Jephonias by name, running against the body, put his hands upon the couch; and, behold, an angel of the Lord by invisible power, with a sword of fire, cut off his two hands from his shoulders, and made them hang about the couch, lifted up in the air. And at this miracle which had come to pass all the people of the Jews who beheld it cried out: Verily, He that was brought forth by you is the true God, O mother of God, ever-virgin Mary. And Jephonias himself, when Peter ordered him, that the wonderful things of God might be showed forth, stood up behind the couch, and cried out: Holy Mary, who brought forth Christ who is God, have mercy upon me. And Peter turned and said to him: In the name of Him who was born of her, your hands which have been taken away from you, will be fixed on again. And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
And when this miracle had been done, the apostles carried the couch, and laid down her precious and holy body in Gethsemane in a new tomb. And, behold, a perfume of sweet savour came forth out of the holy sepulchre of our Lady the mother of God; and for three days the voices of invisible angels were heard glorifying Christ our God, who had been born of her. And when the third day was ended, the voices were no longer heard; and from that time forth all knew that her spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise.
And after it had been transferred, behold, we see Elisabeth the mother of St. John the Baptist, and Anna the mother of the Lady, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and David, singing the Alleluiah, and all the choirs of the saints adoring the holy relics of the mother of the Lord, and the place full of light, than which light nothing could be more brilliant, and an abundance of perfume in that place to which her precious and holy body had been transferred in paradise, and the melody of those praising Him who had been born of her— sweet melody, of which there is no satiety, such as is given to virgins, and them only, to hear. We apostles, therefore, having beheld the sudden precious translation of her holy body, glorified God, who had shown us His wonders at the departure of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose prayers and good offices may we all be deemed worthy to receive, under her shelter, and support, and protection, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, glorifying in every time and place her only-begotten Son, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen.
Source
Note the bolded section. Once again, the concept of the blessed Theotokos being sinless is theologoumenon. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. However, this is the teaching of the Church.
we're all 'blameless' as long as we are covered by the blood of Christ. There's many instances in the syniexar that refer the souls of saints as blameless as well. does that mean that they are without sin as well? This is just our language as Orthodox