I find this a bit ironic - considering you are a member of the HCOC. Why expend all the energy and time learning and recording hymns in Coptic? Why not record them all in English?
Unworthy,
HCOC's production and the long melismatic hymns they are trying to preserve and record are not necessarily meant for the entire Coptic population. It has a specific audience. It's the >5% of deacons who know these hymns, not 95%+ nor the general congregation who don't know these hymns even exist. There are other recordings and groups who record in English. They have their specific target audience also. Each group is allowed to cater and produce audio recordings to whichever speciality they want to.
The problem is when either the pro-Coptic-only group and the pro-English-only group (or any other specialty group) think the other is un-Coptic, un-Egyptian, un-Orthodox, or un-Christian. The fact, which Biboboy and others have tried to explain, is that the only un-Christian sin here is to consider language more important than the people (whether the converts who can't learn Coptic, or the Copts who experience God more through Coptic). This is both biblically based, patristically based, linguistically based and psychologically based. We're not stating something new.
The truth is when 2 cultures contact many social, linguistic, political, economical, and psychological processes automatically occur. You can't stop it. We need to emrace cultural change, rather than pretend we are (or should be) immune from such phenomenae.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11903.msg142148#msg142148 date=1311913476] [quote author=Biboboy link=topic=11903.msg142137#msg142137 date=1311911020] As I said earlier, we worship God, not our languages and cultures. It is a sin to create the idol of Coptic and worship it.
As the old saying goes: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This does not translate (necessarily) to "sin as the Romans sin," which is usually what goes on in Middle Eastern people's minds when they think of moving to and avoiding the influence of Western cultures. There is much spirituality in Rome, as in any culture, that can be used to praise God, equally - if not even better - than in worshipping in a tongue that makes no sense to the one who prays.
Take this an example: when the Syrians went to Egypt, they worshipped in the Coptic rites and hymns, and even built their monastic community in similar structures as the Coptic ones in Egypt, rather than the structures of Syria/Palestine.
Take this as another example: when the Egyptians preached to the Ethiopians, the Ethiopian Christians built their own churches, worshiped in their own languages, created their own rites, and composed many hymns of their own.
Christianity should always be local. Christianity should always be incarnate!
I find this a bit ironic - considering you are a member of the HCOC. Why expend all the energy and time learning and recording hymns in Coptic? Why not record them all in English?
I do not find this ironic at all, but rather find it supportive of a truly Orthodox practise of the Orthodox Faith. Worship and teaching is in the local tongue, but efforts should--nay, must--be made to learn the languages of old. I am a native English speaker, and I worship in English in an Antiochian parish (Arabic jurisdiction). It is only responsible, however, that I make the efforts to learn Greek, Slavonic, Coptic, Latin, etc. because it is what the ancient texts of hymns, teachings, letters, etc. are written in. The use of these languages is not wrong and heretical, when used responsibly. This is done properly by using them for very repetative phrases in worship (ie: Lord, have mercy; Blessed is our God, always, now and ever, unto ages of ages; Glory... both now...; etc.), and this is abused when done inappropriately (Psalms, Lamentations, long hymns, sermons, etc.). If you are in Egypt, use Arabic and Coptic. If you are in Mexico, Spanish and Coptic/Greek/Slavonic with 90% in Spanish. If in Alberta, Canada, use 90% English and 10% other.
Brothers and Sisters, the Fathers of the Church are extremely clear on this. The use of languages in worship that are not known by the faithful is anathema. Period.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142084#msg142084 date=1311866622] Before I go back to that point, churches which belong to the church of England in Egypt, or any other Arab-speaking country for that matter: how long does it take for them to change their rites into Arabic? Never is the answer. Maybe imikhail is right and I don't know anything about Egyptian history. Are you saying the Anglican Church in Egypt does not use Arabic in their services? Are you saying they use English in Egypt? I thought they only use Arabic. As I see on the Arabic channels, they only speak Arabic. Am I misinformed here?
The Coptic Church is there to keep serving people who come from Egypt. Egypt will not cease to exist, neither will Egyptians cease to emigrate, and even if that is the case, the Coptic church will do Herself a grave amount of harm if she changes to be a BOC.
Maybe a different example will illustrate this better. It is not a Christian example, but I think it may clarify. A priest told me that he has been receiving many single Egyptian male emigrants because of the immigration lottery. One emigrant, who actually stayed illegally and was applying for asylum, wanted a license to drive. The priest got him an immigration lawyer to help with his asylum case. The priest told him that he can't drive because he doesn't have a valid license and he will jeopardize his asylum case if he applies for a driver's license. This emigrant felt he is entitled to drive because he has been driving in Egypt for so many years. So what does he do? He goes behind Abouna's back and goes to the lawyer asking her to apply for a license. She told Abouna she is dropping his case. In a similar example, I heard from a friend that she picked up her family from an airport and her uncle insisted on driving because he was the man of the house. He was stopped for speeding and he couldn't speak a word of English and he didn't have a license. Luckily, the polic officer had a heart and told his neice to drive and he gave them a warning. Maybe these are isolated instances. I think they are symptomatic of the Egyptian identity conflict outside of Egypt. These examples show how cultural and psychological values cannot apply in a different culture milleu. The Church still serves these people. The Church can't say, "yes Mr. Emigrant, you were driving in Egypt and you're the head of the family. Here is my car." No. The way the Church serves this person is to tell him, "You are not in Egypt. You can't do whatever you want." Knowing Egyptian stubborness, most Egyptians will blame the priest and the Church for saying things like this. Again, these are normal processes. We just don't want to embrace them.
One last word, Coptic culture is part of the Coptic church, and that is a fact.
I don't think it's so black and white. Cultures change. Languages change. Foods change. Politics change. Attitudes change. People change. All of these are part of the Coptic culture. If you don't separate the Coptic Culture from the Coptic Orthodox Church, you misrepresenting Coptic culture. Coptic simply means Egyptian. If it were integrally associated with the Coptic Orthodox Church, then the Coptic catholics can't call themselves Coptic. The Greeks in Alexandria, who share many items of the culture with the Coptic Orthodox, cannot be Egyptian or Coptic either. I've even seen Muslims learn Coptic and call themselves the sons of the Pharaohs. There is an association with culture and a particular religion. But culture is also shared among religions. The association must be viewed in a broader picture.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg142154#msg142154 date=1311915854] [quote author=epiphania link=topic=11903.msg142145#msg142145 date=1311913005] I'm sorry zoxasi but I disagree with you.
I take almost as much pride in being Egyptian as I do in my Coptic church.
See.. that's my problem. What the heck are you doing outside Egypt? Why not live back in Egypt if you feel that proud?
Let's say (because I don't know you) that you are living in America - are you more proud to be American or Egyptian? Or are you more proud to be British or Egyptian?
YOU ARE ABOVE ALL A CHRISTIAN!!! If you love Egypt that much, get out of my beautiful Orthodox Church and either go back to Egypt, find an Egyptian restaurant/bar someone and stay there. When you want to pray, when you want to exercise TRUE ORTHODOXY - irrelevant of Egyptian Culture - come back.
Its people and attitudes like yours that have ruined my Church. You've created an Egyptian atmosphere in an Orthodox Church .
I don't feel like I have to give up the Egyptian identity to have a strong christian church.
What are you doing outside Egypt? I hope its not for a long time, I hope you are going back to Egypt soon??? Please don't tell me that you love Egypt that much, AS MUCH as being Coptic Orthodox, and you are living off of welfare in other non Egyptian Countries??? PLEASE!!!
the after-church meal IS for normal socializing. You want a more spiritual atmosphere? go to bible study, or one of the youth outtings or one of the many other spiritual activities our church has. meal time IS for socialization. it IS for making friends with other ppl in the church. The church meets our spiritual AND social needs. What's wrong with that?
The atmosphere in a Church with people who think like you, behave like you,act like you, is AWFUL. Its not a Church.
if you wrote: "I am originally from Egypt, but I'm living now in country XYZ , and Country XYZ is my home and I love it, but I AM above all a Christian" - I could respect your opinion.
But look at what you wrote: You are proud to be Egyptian as much as you are to be Coptic. This entire attitude will resonate in many ways within the Church - EVEN IN A BIBLE STUDY!!!
I'm not against unity with any other church. I just don't see our culture as a barrier to our christian lives.
If you're dying to give it up, there are white-washed coptic churches out there. I'm not saying that as a bad thing at all. I think its great. We want to include more people in the Orthodox faith, and those really help to do that! But that doesn't make all churches that hang on to the egyptian aspect kokha.
Its a barrier.. and if you read my post carefully, YOU are the type of person that will causing our children to inherit an Egyptian club, not an Orthodox Church.
I want my kid to be proud to be French. They have no association with Egypt. I don't want them to MEET YOU, or people like you. They will DEFINATELY feel left out of Church life if they go there.
My Arabic IMPROVED DRAMMATICALLY whilst going to a Coptic Orthodox Church in Canada. The people there didn't speak French / English in the Church - it was ALL Arabic.
sweetheart, the 'like you' language is very unbecoming.
regardless, I am Canadian. I'm a second generation canadian and I grew up in Canada! I speak english MUCH better than arabic, and honestly, I don't remember anything about Egypt.
But in case you hadn't noticed because you're too busy trying to purge yourself of every egyptian aspect about you, Canadian culture is about belonging to a cultural mosiac. it's about maintaining your identity. how dare you try and tell me that that means living off canadian 'welfare'?
Even mainstream culture OC's practice with a certain culture. culture is not something you can divorce from the way you practice. mainstream itself IS a culture.
I will say this again. The after church meal is NOT CHURCH. its a social event! that was always the point of it! You talk like its a sin to socialize at church.
I simply don't understand how you want the atmosphere to feel while ppl r eating. or would it be okay if they weren't all egyptian? we can talk and do whatever we want as long as we're not all of the same race? THEN its orthodox?
local culture orthodox churches do exist. there's several of them in Canada. In fact I recently met an asian guy from one of these local culture OCs. And seriously people, he knew more about the coptic church than I did. I met a mexican guy from a COC much closer as well, and he's seriously the strongest orthodox guy I've every met. but that doesn't mean that you can only have one or the other. Egyptian culture COCs can exist along side local culture COCs. They both have a place. seriously people, God doesn't care what culture you worship with.
sorry sweatheart. You just wanna be french because you're in a french atmosphere. find urself an FOC then.
I thought Zoxsasi was an "ethnic" (or whatever you'd call it) Belgian? Hmmm. At any rate, can we please not cut each other down with condescending titles like "sweetie" or talk about "YOU people" or whatever? This is not becoming of us as Christians, no matter what our background. We can disagree without being this way with each other, I hope.
Dear Remenkimi, First of all, I wasn't talking about Evangelist churches. I was merely talking about Church of England churches in Egypt. They speak English in Egypt. I don't exactly know what you watch on TV. I am not talking about kassr el dobara or the like. Secondly, I guess the example you gave is far-fetched. What does what I said have anything to do with the Egyptian mentality of who drives for whom, and Egyptians going behind the priest's back?!!! I really don't see how I implied any such a thing in my posts, please clarify to me how you understood my original post. Thirdly, cultures change, yes, agreed, but they are still different. Coptic culture is part of the Coptic church which is different to the British culture inherent in the BOC, or the French, or the Indian, or the Syrian, or the Greek, or or or... yet they are all Orthodox Oujai qen `P[C
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
While there are great saints (in extraordinary numbers) and great history and great things to come out of Egypt, we must remember that we are not citizens of this world, as St. Paul says. We are called to be apart from the world--to live in it as though we are exiles. I learned a lot about this while reading Psalm 136, and reading the writings of the ascetical fathers about not being a part of the world. Even St. Paul says, "there is neither Greek or Jew, slave or free, man or woman, for Christ is all and in all." Egyptian really does not matter, Canadian really does not matter, American, British, French, Australian... it does not matter. To love being a nationality as much as being an Orthodox Christian is dangerous to one's soul, unless that nationality is the New Israel: the Holy Orthodox Church.
Now, shine, shine O New Jerusalem, for the glory of the Lord hath shone upon thee!
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142195#msg142195 date=1311969665] Dear Remenkimi, First of all, I wasn't talking about Evangelist churches. I was merely talking about Church of England churches in Egypt. Maybe I'm mixing up churches here. Isn't the Church of England in Egypt the Anglican Church in Egypt under the Anglican Church of England? Were you talking about the Catholic Church of England? I didn't gather you were you speaking of the Catholic church in Egypt, but I just wanted to make sure. As far as I know, the major Protestant denomination in England is the Church of England, whom the King/Queen of England is its prelate (in charge). Under the Bishop of Cantebury in the 19th century, England sent an Anglican mission to Egypt. The Anglican Church of England in Egypt is well Anglican. Correct me if I'm wrong.
They speak English in Egypt. I don't exactly know what you watch on TV. I am not talking about kassr el dobara or the like. Is it one local church that speaks English or the entire Anglican Church in Egypt? If it's the latter, then I'm surprised. It was my understanding that all Protestant Churches (Anglican, Presbyterian, Episcopilian, etc) speak Arabic in Egypt.
Secondly, I guess the example you gave is far-fetched. What does what I said have anything to do with the Egyptian mentality of who drives for whom, and Egyptians going behind the priest's back?!!! I really don't see how I implied any such a thing in my posts, please clarify to me how you understood my original post. It was not meant to parallel your original post. I was merely trying to show that there is a cultural and psychological gap between cultures. One can't expect to simply transpose an Egyptian culture in another country. There will be consequences. One must learn to assimilate to the new culture whatever way is necessary. That doesn't mean abandon your culture entirely. It means learn where you can give and take.
Thirdly, cultures change, yes, agreed, but they are still different. Coptic culture is part of the Coptic church which is different to the British culture inherent in the BOC, or the French, or the Indian, or the Syrian, or the Greek, or or or... yet they are all Orthodox If we take Coptic to mean Egyptian, then not all Coptic Churches are Orthodox. There is Coptic Catholic. There is also Egyptian/Coptic Greek Catholic. There is even Muslims who learn Coptic. I understand you are comparing Orthodox Churches in different countries/cultures, but I'm just point out that associating a specific culture with a specific church is not looking at the broader meaning of culture/anthropology.
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
While there are great saints (in extraordinary numbers) and great history and great things to come out of Egypt, we must remember that we are not citizens of this world, as St. Paul says. We are called to be apart from the world--to live in it as though we are exiles. I learned a lot about this while reading Psalm 136, and reading the writings of the ascetical fathers about not being a part of the world. Even St. Paul says, "there is neither Greek or Jew, slave or free, man or woman, for Christ is all and in all." Egyptian really does not matter, Canadian really does not matter, American, British, French, Australian... it does not matter. To love being a nationality as much as being an Orthodox Christian is dangerous to one's soul, unless that nationality is the New Israel: the Holy Orthodox Church.
Now, shine, shine O New Jerusalem, for the glory of the Lord hath shone upon thee!
"He who loves their father, mother, brother, sister MORE THAN Me, is not worthy of Me."
I'm pretty sure we could even add nationality in there... thanks Joseph.Vanderbrink!!!
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS started monasticism! It was Saint Anthony!
If you are that PROUD to be Egyptian why the heck did you leave Egypt for??
Egypt is BLESSED, yes - definitely. But you are not in Egypt, and we are not in Egypt. If you want to BLESS canada, if you want Canada to be blessed, you cannot be of a spirit where you are more proud to be Egyptian than Canadian. THe Canadians there will hate you.
The same for France.
If I am French, and I am MORE proud to be Egyptian than French (even though France has done more for me than Egypt), then I will make French people hate me. They will despise me AND my Church.
Indeed, its an absolute disgrace the Church in Villejuif - outside Paris. There is a security man with large guard dog who stands outside the main entrance EVERY Sunday to stop the fights that happen.
The priest there doesn't speak a word of French. Its HUMILIATING TO originally from Egypt when I see these people and how they behave. It really is.
My family will be raised outside Egypt, I will never live there again, YET I AM COPTIC ORTHODOX!!
My love for Orthodoxy has indeed excelled my love for Egypt. I do not hate Egypt, but its just a country. And yes, my sincerity towards France is far greater than my sincerity towards Egypt.
OK.. Epiphania, just a question for you:
Let's say Egypt was at war with Canada. Which side would you be on? Which side would your children (if/when you have them) would they fight for?
Oh and by the way, here is where Egypt is heading if you haven't already realized:
Under Sharia law, you do not have the same status as a Muslim. So if your country treats you with such disdain, why would you be proud of it to that extent? Without Egypt being under Islamic Sharia Law, it ALREADY discriminates against Coptic Christians. Thus the reason why my parents left Egypt.
Now they are in Europe, HOW STUPID would it be then to go and love Egypt more than the host country that has treated me with respect and honored the citizenship they have given me!!???
Oh, and ONE last thing:
In Church (and even outside of it), YOU ARE AN AMBASSADOR TO CHRIST, NOT EGYPT!!! Understand your baptism, and what it means!
Dear Remenkimi, Evangelical churches in Egypt (as I found on wikipedia) are part of the "North American" denomination - that is as far as I could understand. So that is an example of a missionary church, who speak Arabic in Egypt, an Arab-speaking country. I have no qualms about that. In fact, the Orthodox counterpart to this, as imikhail has explained before is how the apostles preached the Gospel amongst all nations, never forcing their language or traditions, or Jesus' for that matter. Only the rituals and instructions they received from Him, which is more related to the faith as you quite rightly say. What I was actually talking about is a church (that I believe belongs to the Church of England) which serves foreign communities in Egypt (not only English). They have an Australia priest, and an Egyptian "archdeacon" (or whatever is equivalent), and the service is in English, and the songs are in English. So you can see how this church serves to look after her flock (within the context of her culture), and be in another way missionary. I don't understand, and honestly don't appreciate your indirectly ridiculing the Egyptian mentality in such a way. There is no secret in Egyptian people being more chaotic and irrational sometimes in taking matters into their own hands, but that has its reasons, and they are numerous. That doesn't give anybody the right to ridicule the whole nation, even if we laugh on facebook with the behaviour of illiterate Egyptians, and the show-offs know-it-all people. Please, at least for my sake, don't do that. Dear Zoxsasi, As I told Remenkimi now, and told Fr. Peter before, there is no harm in feeling proud in your ancestors and forefathers. You do understand very clearly I presume why people immigrate, and cannot stay in Egypt, making huge sacrifices (well, I hope you do understand), and the big example of that is your mother (and your father maybe) who are still close to their Coptic roots, in one way or another. Please don't say such things as "you go back to Egypt", "you don't deserve to be in Canada", and such things. I for one, am very proud to be Egyptian, and to have chosen to live in the UK, and make my life a success achieving my potential in this country. So, I have a double reason to be proud (as epiphania is I hope). Dear Joseph.Vandenbrink, In your first post you very clearly said the things I have been saying all along. You are learning a new language to assimilate yourself in a new culture that you like. This agrees so much I think with what Fr. Peter has been saying on people integrating into foreign communities and becoming part of them. Oujai qen `P[C
There's nothing wrong with being proud about your birthplace. But are you also proud to be British?
Are you British??
I FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHY A PERSON GOING INTO AN ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CHURCH IN THE UK HAS TO EVEN HEAR ARABIC IN THE LITURGY!!! WHAT FOR???
Why should there be Arabic in an Oriental Orthodox Church in the UK,Belgium or France???
Are the Orthodox people there not integrated into their new country???
Did you tell the lawyer who gave you your British passport how proud you are to be Egyptian!??? Did you tell him that you are more faithful towards Egypt than England and the Queen!???
You are now a British subject. Your loyalty should be towards the UK. NOT EGYPT!!
If you are loyal towards England, why do you pray in Arabic in an Orthodox Church in the UK!?? Are you not integrated fully in British society??? Are you making a statement that Coptic Egyptian Christians living in the UK are JUST LIKE the muslims from Egypt who care not for the British values and culture and insist on having their imams pray and preach in Arabic!! You are no different.
You are in England! The Orthodox faith should not be associated with a language or any type of nationality. You've ISLAMIZED Orthodoxy!! The islamic faith insists that the Quran is read in Arabic. Its intertwined with a language and a culture. You cannot separate them.
If you could separate them, there would be NO ISSUE with Islam in Europe.
Instead, you have a situation where muslims are seen to be disassociated with British culture that their presence has even caused offense to many British nationals. You are NO different!!!
If I were to travel to Brazil, and I find a Catholic Church, why would I hear the liturgy in French for in a Catholic Church in Brazil? It would be in Portuguese.
If I were to travel to Spain, and enter a Catholic Church there, what kind of mentality would expect the liturgy there to be in French??!!
If I were to travel to a Catholic Church in Egypt, I would expect to hear the SAME liturgy in Arabic.
Perhaps in every case, there maybe some Latin hymns (one or two), but the theology, the dogmas, the rites are the same except in the language.
However, with the Coptic Orthodox Church, EVERYTHING is in Arabic.
Catholics living in Spain are Spanish. Coptic Orthodox living in Spain, are all Egyptians living in Spain. Do you see the difference!?? Coptic Christians living in France ARE NOT FRENCH!! They are Egyptians living in France.
Why should I have to learn Arabic to even participate in an Oriental Orthodox liturgy outside of Egypt??
Dear Zoxsasi, First of all, one cannot forget his past, or his personal make-up when they move to another country. Forgetting your identity, or even only the things you learnt in childhood, and grew up with is a grave sin (I may argue). Only snakes (not aware of any other reptile, or animal) are capable of changing their skins. Only lizards (and maybe some insects) are capable of changing their colour. If you just shake off what you have lived with all your life just because you moved to another country, then you have no person, or identity. Britain, and maybe other countries in Europe but I haven't been to one, prides itself on its multiculturalism. You can live with your principles and your ideologies, including the dogmas you inherited, or taught, as long as you contribute positively to society, and not breach any rules. I personally am so proud of being an Egyptian, a descendant of the pharaohs, and when there are programme in the British TV about them, I am filled with awe, and pleasure. I am also so proud of my choosing Britain to solve deep dilemmas entrenched in third world countries including Egypt nowadays. Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142406#msg142406 date=1312224850] Dear Zoxsasi, First of all, one cannot forget his past, or his personal make-up when they move to another country. Forgetting your identity, or even only the things you learnt in childhood, and grew up with is a grave sin (I may argue). Only snakes (not aware of any other reptile, or animal) are capable of changing their skins. Only lizards (and maybe some insects) are capable of changing their colour. If you just shake off what you have lived with all your life just because you moved to another country, then you have no person, or identity. Britain, and maybe other countries in Europe but I haven't been to one, prides itself on its multiculturalism. You can live with your principles and your ideologies, including the dogmas you inherited, or taught, as long as you contribute positively to society, and not breach any rules. I personally am so proud of being an Egyptian, a descendant of the pharaohs, and when there are programme in the British TV about them, I am filled with awe, and pleasure. I am also so proud of my choosing Britain to solve deep dilemmas entrenched in third world countries including Egypt nowadays. Oujai qen `P[C
Yeah.. i think you are not getting the point.
I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO FORGET ABOUT YOUR BIRTHPLACE!!!
I am asking you to not bring it into a Coptic Church that has NOTHING to do with with your birthplace.
If you have this SUDDEN urge to miss Egypt, don't take it out on the Church, and ask a priest to pray in Arabic... go to a nice Egyptian restaurant, have a shisha, and eat some falafel.
But leave Arabic out of a Church where it is in a country that does not speak Arabic!!
Why can you not understand me!!?? I am telling you that the Orthodox faith should have nothing to do with national identity. Yet, you as Egyptians, insist on bringing your culture into the Church. For goodness sake, Arabic isn't even your original language!!
Do you not understand, Ophadece, that there are Oriental Orthodox Christians that have nothing to do with Egypt who live OUTSIDE of Egypt???
Do you not think that it is insulting that the liturgy is done more often in Arabic than it is in their native language when you are in THEIR country!!!!
WAKE UP!!!!!!
I'm not asking you to change your skin. I'm asking you to have shwayet DAM!! This is totally insulting.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=11903.msg142410#msg142410 date=1312229017] Zoxasi, how about another option that i have been thinking of this whole time. GO TO CHURCH TO WORSHIP YOUR CREATOR INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BE ACCEPTED BY OTHER PEOPLE.
I think you're a bit of a time waster.
Here are the points I made, and please tell me what this has to do with me wanting to be accepted by other people:
WHY SHOULD THE HOLY LITURGY IN THE COPTIC CHURCH OUTSIDE EGYPT BE PRAYED IN ARABIC FOR??
What does this have to do with being accepted by other people!??? Its a matter of decency!
Do the Coptic CHristians in Belgium not speak French or Flemish? Do those in France not speak French??
Why do they want to pray in Arabic for???
Does the being Coptic Orthodox oblige its congregation to speak Arabic as a prerequisite to enjoy the liturgy?!!!
The Quran must be prayed in Arabic. The Islamic religion is intertwined with a language. We are not this. We should not have this problem!
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142413#msg142413 date=1312233139] So you insulted me Zoxsasi. OK, may God bless you man... pray for us please
Habibi, I am not insulting you. You mean when I said "have shawayet dam" - I really mean that Egyptians living outside Egypt (in the UK for example) should have shawyet dam and not have the arrogance of praying in Arabic in a country where Arabic is not the national language. There's no need for it.
You're not passing by in England. You have a British passport. You live in the UK. You're not going back to Egypt. No one is.
Ophadece, tell me ANOTHER word to use other than have "shawyet dam" ?!! Put yourself in my shoes... this is how it looks:
That Egyptians in the UK/FRANCE/BELGIUM, have no dam (ma3endehomsh dam). How DARE a priest think that he can live in Belgium and pray ALL THE TIME in Arabic!!??? EVERY SUNDAY??
What is this!!??
What do you want me to say?? This is very insulting also to be exposed to this.
Dear Zoxsasi my brother, Go and re-read your post. You addressed me, are you aware? Or ashamed? Doesn't make a difference really. I think you are so resistant to discussion, and I really cannot see myself having a sane argument with you, for many reasons, mostly because you are aggravated, and secondly because I am Egyptian. I stop here... Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142418#msg142418 date=1312234516] Dear Zoxsasi my brother, Go and re-read your post. You addressed me, are you aware? Or ashamed? Doesn't make a difference really. I think you are so resistant to discussion, and I really cannot see myself having a sane argument with you, for many reasons, mostly because you are aggravated, and secondly because I am Egyptian. I stop here... Oujai qen `P[C
OK.. I addressed you, but I meant EVERY Egyptian living outside Egypt.. not just you.
You don't have to answer.. but in my heart - EVERYONE who considers themselves European and not Egyptian, we think that Egyptians ma3endehomsh dam to pray in Arabic in European countries. This is a huge display/portrayal of disrespect to the country you are in. Period.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142229#msg142229 date=1312017987] Dear Remenkimi, Evangelical churches in Egypt (as I found on wikipedia) are part of the "North American" denomination - that is as far as I could understand. So that is an example of a missionary church, who speak Arabic in Egypt, an Arab-speaking country. On this site, there is a list of recognized and unrecognized religions in Egypt. You are speaking of the Evangelical Church, which was founded under the American Presbyterian Church. I was talking about the Anglican Church, which according to this article, is actually the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East. I don't know why they are called Anglican. I've seen them called this on Arabic TV stations and in the Keraza. I simply assumed they were under the Church of England (Anglican). The article is a little misleading. I don't think there is a Syrian Orthodox or an Armenian Orthodox (OO) Church in Egypt. I think they are simply talking about Syrian and Armenians living in Egypt. I don't know if there are Syrian and Armenian Orthodox Churches in Egypt. I don't think so. Other than the Greek Orthodox Church, there is no other Orthodox Church in Egypt - no Armenian Orthodox, no Syrian Orthodox, no Ethiopian Orthodox, no Eritrean Orthodox, no Indian Orthodox - even though there are Syrians, Armenians, Indians, Eritreans living in Egypt. The idea of multiple patriarchates occupying the same space is not an Orthodox concept. If it is not done in Egypt, why should advocate it in the US or the UK or any where else? (I know you didn't advocate this concept, imikhail did). The idea of establishing multiple churches based on culture is Catholic and Protestant (as you can see from the article).
What I was actually talking about is a church (that I believe belongs to the Church of England) which serves foreign communities in Egypt (not only English). They have an Australia priest, and an Egyptian "archdeacon" (or whatever is equivalent), and the service is in English, and the songs are in English. So you can see how this church serves to look after her flock (within the context of her culture), and be in another way missionary. It still seems very strange that a Church in Egypt prays in English regularly when there are sooooo few English speaking parishioners there. Maybe they are trying to serve (or convert) English, American and European travelers in Egypt. But these are so few that it makes no sense to pray in English in Egypt (as Zoxasi is trying to explain). This one church seems to be an aberration. The substantial majority of Christian Churches in Egypt pray and worship in Arabic. It's interesting that this article states that the Greek Orthodox, Armenian Catholics, Syrian Catholics, Greek Catholics, Episcopal/Anglican, Maronite are non-native. One could expect them to pray and daily communicate in a non-Arabic language since they are non-native. They haven't fully internalized the Egyptian culture. Although I think they probably pray and communicate in Arabic than other languages. The article does not speak about languages.
I don't understand, and honestly don't appreciate your indirectly ridiculing the Egyptian mentality in such a way. There is no secret in Egyptian people being more chaotic and irrational sometimes in taking matters into their own hands, but that has its reasons, and they are numerous. That doesn't give anybody the right to ridicule the whole nation, even if we laugh on facebook with the behaviour of illiterate Egyptians, and the show-offs know-it-all people. Please, at least for my sake, don't do that. I apologize if you thought I was ridiculing Egyptians. I'm not. I am one of them. I was simply trying to show examples of cultural conflict (transposing a culture into a different country) and how it can't be ignored even though many Egyptians are causing cultural conflict by ignoring the social, political, and economical processes. I only used Egyptians because I am only familiar with Egyptians. But the same is true with the Chinese, Indian, Amish, and other isolated groups in America.
I think most people will agree that it's good to be proud of your heritage, ancestors and traditions. But not at the expense of serving non-Egyptians. Not at the expense of isolating ourselves from those who are not Egyptian. Not at the expense of our citizenship to our new emigrant country. When you become American, you pledge allegiance to America. You are expected first and foremost to be American and serve Americans. Again, past experience says too many Egyptians are emigrating without any knowledge of America, just wanting a mini-Egypt in America. It is symptomatic of an anti-unity trend which is not Orthodox, nor Christian.
think most people will agree that it's good to be proud of your heritage, ancestors and traditions. But not at the expense of serving non-Egyptians. Not at the expense of isolating ourselves from those who are not Egyptian. Not at the expense of our citizenship to our new emigrant country. When you become American, you pledge allegiance to America. You are expected first and foremost to be American and serve Americans. Again, past experience says too many Egyptians are emigrating without any knowledge of America, just wanting a mini-Egypt in America. It is symptomatic of an anti-unity trend which is not Orthodox, nor Christian.
We, as Copts, are not isolationists .. which may be the perception of one isolated local church. One need to take a look at what the Coptic Church accomplished in the last fourty years it has been in the Western world, to appreciate the assimilation she is undergoing.
Other than the Greek Orthodox Church, there is no other Orthodox Church in Egypt - no Armenian Orthodox, no Syrian Orthodox, no Ethiopian Orthodox, no Eritrean Orthodox, no Indian Orthodox - even though there are Syrians, Armenians, Indians, Eritreans living in Egypt.
Zoxsasi, I do kind of see where you're coming from. But I do not think the problem is as major as you do, and I think a big part of it is that so many churches are in a "transition" period between a generation of immigrant Arabic speakers and the generation of natives. I think it's something that will improve over time, and I say this based on my observations of the churches in my area. There is a clear difference between the newer ones and the more well-established ones that have been around for a few decades.
Comments
I find this a bit ironic - considering you are a member of the HCOC. Why expend all the energy and time learning and recording hymns in Coptic? Why not record them all in English?
Unworthy,
HCOC's production and the long melismatic hymns they are trying to preserve and record are not necessarily meant for the entire Coptic population. It has a specific audience. It's the >5% of deacons who know these hymns, not 95%+ nor the general congregation who don't know these hymns even exist. There are other recordings and groups who record in English. They have their specific target audience also. Each group is allowed to cater and produce audio recordings to whichever speciality they want to.
The problem is when either the pro-Coptic-only group and the pro-English-only group (or any other specialty group) think the other is un-Coptic, un-Egyptian, un-Orthodox, or un-Christian. The fact, which Biboboy and others have tried to explain, is that the only un-Christian sin here is to consider language more important than the people (whether the converts who can't learn Coptic, or the Copts who experience God more through Coptic). This is both biblically based, patristically based, linguistically based and psychologically based. We're not stating something new.
The truth is when 2 cultures contact many social, linguistic, political, economical, and psychological processes automatically occur. You can't stop it. We need to emrace cultural change, rather than pretend we are (or should be) immune from such phenomenae.
[quote author=Biboboy link=topic=11903.msg142137#msg142137 date=1311911020]
As I said earlier, we worship God, not our languages and cultures. It is a sin to create the idol of Coptic and worship it.
As the old saying goes: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This does not translate (necessarily) to "sin as the Romans sin," which is usually what goes on in Middle Eastern people's minds when they think of moving to and avoiding the influence of Western cultures. There is much spirituality in Rome, as in any culture, that can be used to praise God, equally - if not even better - than in worshipping in a tongue that makes no sense to the one who prays.
Take this an example: when the Syrians went to Egypt, they worshipped in the Coptic rites and hymns, and even built their monastic community in similar structures as the Coptic ones in Egypt, rather than the structures of Syria/Palestine.
Take this as another example: when the Egyptians preached to the Ethiopians, the Ethiopian Christians built their own churches, worshiped in their own languages, created their own rites, and composed many hymns of their own.
Christianity should always be local. Christianity should always be incarnate!
I find this a bit ironic - considering you are a member of the HCOC. Why expend all the energy and time learning and recording hymns in Coptic? Why not record them all in English?
I do not find this ironic at all, but rather find it supportive of a truly Orthodox practise of the Orthodox Faith. Worship and teaching is in the local tongue, but efforts should--nay, must--be made to learn the languages of old. I am a native English speaker, and I worship in English in an Antiochian parish (Arabic jurisdiction). It is only responsible, however, that I make the efforts to learn Greek, Slavonic, Coptic, Latin, etc. because it is what the ancient texts of hymns, teachings, letters, etc. are written in. The use of these languages is not wrong and heretical, when used responsibly. This is done properly by using them for very repetative phrases in worship (ie: Lord, have mercy; Blessed is our God, always, now and ever, unto ages of ages; Glory... both now...; etc.), and this is abused when done inappropriately (Psalms, Lamentations, long hymns, sermons, etc.). If you are in Egypt, use Arabic and Coptic. If you are in Mexico, Spanish and Coptic/Greek/Slavonic with 90% in Spanish. If in Alberta, Canada, use 90% English and 10% other.
Brothers and Sisters, the Fathers of the Church are extremely clear on this. The use of languages in worship that are not known by the faithful is anathema. Period.
Before I go back to that point, churches which belong to the church of England in Egypt, or any other Arab-speaking country for that matter: how long does it take for them to change their rites into Arabic? Never is the answer.
Maybe imikhail is right and I don't know anything about Egyptian history. Are you saying the Anglican Church in Egypt does not use Arabic in their services? Are you saying they use English in Egypt? I thought they only use Arabic. As I see on the Arabic channels, they only speak Arabic. Am I misinformed here?
Maybe a different example will illustrate this better. It is not a Christian example, but I think it may clarify. A priest told me that he has been receiving many single Egyptian male emigrants because of the immigration lottery. One emigrant, who actually stayed illegally and was applying for asylum, wanted a license to drive. The priest got him an immigration lawyer to help with his asylum case. The priest told him that he can't drive because he doesn't have a valid license and he will jeopardize his asylum case if he applies for a driver's license. This emigrant felt he is entitled to drive because he has been driving in Egypt for so many years. So what does he do? He goes behind Abouna's back and goes to the lawyer asking her to apply for a license. She told Abouna she is dropping his case. In a similar example, I heard from a friend that she picked up her family from an airport and her uncle insisted on driving because he was the man of the house. He was stopped for speeding and he couldn't speak a word of English and he didn't have a license. Luckily, the polic officer had a heart and told his neice to drive and he gave them a warning. Maybe these are isolated instances. I think they are symptomatic of the Egyptian identity conflict outside of Egypt. These examples show how cultural and psychological values cannot apply in a different culture milleu. The Church still serves these people. The Church can't say, "yes Mr. Emigrant, you were driving in Egypt and you're the head of the family. Here is my car." No. The way the Church serves this person is to tell him, "You are not in Egypt. You can't do whatever you want." Knowing Egyptian stubborness, most Egyptians will blame the priest and the Church for saying things like this. Again, these are normal processes. We just don't want to embrace them. I don't think it's so black and white. Cultures change. Languages change. Foods change. Politics change. Attitudes change. People change. All of these are part of the Coptic culture. If you don't separate the Coptic Culture from the Coptic Orthodox Church, you misrepresenting Coptic culture. Coptic simply means Egyptian. If it were integrally associated with the Coptic Orthodox Church, then the Coptic catholics can't call themselves Coptic. The Greeks in Alexandria, who share many items of the culture with the Coptic Orthodox, cannot be Egyptian or Coptic either. I've even seen Muslims learn Coptic and call themselves the sons of the Pharaohs. There is an association with culture and a particular religion. But culture is also shared among religions. The association must be viewed in a broader picture.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=11903.msg142145#msg142145 date=1311913005]
I'm sorry zoxasi but I disagree with you.
I take almost as much pride in being Egyptian as I do in my Coptic church.
See.. that's my problem. What the heck are you doing outside Egypt? Why not live back in Egypt if you feel that proud?
Let's say (because I don't know you) that you are living in America - are you more proud to be American or Egyptian? Or are you more proud to be British or Egyptian?
YOU ARE ABOVE ALL A CHRISTIAN!!! If you love Egypt that much, get out of my beautiful Orthodox Church and either go back to Egypt, find an Egyptian restaurant/bar someone and stay there.
When you want to pray, when you want to exercise TRUE ORTHODOXY - irrelevant of Egyptian Culture - come back.
Its people and attitudes like yours that have ruined my Church. You've created an Egyptian atmosphere in an Orthodox Church . What are you doing outside Egypt? I hope its not for a long time, I hope you are going back to Egypt soon??? Please don't tell me that you love Egypt that much, AS MUCH as being Coptic Orthodox, and you are living off of welfare in other non Egyptian Countries??? PLEASE!!! The atmosphere in a Church with people who think like you, behave like you,act like you, is AWFUL. Its not a Church.
if you wrote: "I am originally from Egypt, but I'm living now in country XYZ , and Country XYZ is my home and I love it, but I AM above all a Christian" - I could respect your opinion.
But look at what you wrote: You are proud to be Egyptian as much as you are to be Coptic. This entire attitude will resonate in many ways within the Church - EVEN IN A BIBLE STUDY!!! Its a barrier.. and if you read my post carefully, YOU are the type of person that will causing our children to inherit an Egyptian club, not an Orthodox Church.
I want my kid to be proud to be French. They have no association with Egypt. I don't want them to MEET YOU, or people like you. They will DEFINATELY feel left out of Church life if they go there.
My Arabic IMPROVED DRAMMATICALLY whilst going to a Coptic Orthodox Church in Canada. The people there didn't speak French / English in the Church - it was ALL Arabic.
sweetheart, the 'like you' language is very unbecoming.
regardless, I am Canadian. I'm a second generation canadian and I grew up in Canada! I speak english MUCH better than arabic, and honestly, I don't remember anything about Egypt.
But in case you hadn't noticed because you're too busy trying to purge yourself of every egyptian aspect about you, Canadian culture is about belonging to a cultural mosiac. it's about maintaining your identity. how dare you try and tell me that that means living off canadian 'welfare'?
Even mainstream culture OC's practice with a certain culture. culture is not something you can divorce from the way you practice. mainstream itself IS a culture.
I will say this again. The after church meal is NOT CHURCH. its a social event! that was always the point of it! You talk like its a sin to socialize at church.
I simply don't understand how you want the atmosphere to feel while ppl r eating. or would it be okay if they weren't all egyptian? we can talk and do whatever we want as long as we're not all of the same race? THEN its orthodox?
local culture orthodox churches do exist. there's several of them in Canada. In fact I recently met an asian guy from one of these local culture OCs. And seriously people, he knew more about the coptic church than I did. I met a mexican guy from a COC much closer as well, and he's seriously the strongest orthodox guy I've every met. but that doesn't mean that you can only have one or the other. Egyptian culture COCs can exist along side local culture COCs. They both have a place. seriously people, God doesn't care what culture you worship with.
sorry sweatheart. You just wanna be french because you're in a french atmosphere. find urself an FOC then.
First of all, I wasn't talking about Evangelist churches. I was merely talking about Church of England churches in Egypt. They speak English in Egypt. I don't exactly know what you watch on TV. I am not talking about kassr el dobara or the like.
Secondly, I guess the example you gave is far-fetched. What does what I said have anything to do with the Egyptian mentality of who drives for whom, and Egyptians going behind the priest's back?!!! I really don't see how I implied any such a thing in my posts, please clarify to me how you understood my original post.
Thirdly, cultures change, yes, agreed, but they are still different. Coptic culture is part of the Coptic church which is different to the British culture inherent in the BOC, or the French, or the Indian, or the Syrian, or the Greek, or or or... yet they are all Orthodox
Oujai qen `P[C
Please don't call me sweetheart.
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
Epiphania,
Please don't call me sweetheart.
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg142196#msg142196 date=1311969815]
Epiphania,
Please don't call me sweetheart.
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
While there are great saints (in extraordinary numbers) and great history and great things to come out of Egypt, we must remember that we are not citizens of this world, as St. Paul says. We are called to be apart from the world--to live in it as though we are exiles. I learned a lot about this while reading Psalm 136, and reading the writings of the ascetical fathers about not being a part of the world. Even St. Paul says, "there is neither Greek or Jew, slave or free, man or woman, for Christ is all and in all." Egyptian really does not matter, Canadian really does not matter, American, British, French, Australian... it does not matter. To love being a nationality as much as being an Orthodox Christian is dangerous to one's soul, unless that nationality is the New Israel: the Holy Orthodox Church.
Now, shine, shine O New Jerusalem, for the glory of the Lord hath shone upon thee!
Dear Remenkimi,
First of all, I wasn't talking about Evangelist churches. I was merely talking about Church of England churches in Egypt.
Maybe I'm mixing up churches here. Isn't the Church of England in Egypt the Anglican Church in Egypt under the Anglican Church of England? Were you talking about the Catholic Church of England? I didn't gather you were you speaking of the Catholic church in Egypt, but I just wanted to make sure. As far as I know, the major Protestant denomination in England is the Church of England, whom the King/Queen of England is its prelate (in charge). Under the Bishop of Cantebury in the 19th century, England sent an Anglican mission to Egypt. The Anglican Church of England in Egypt is well Anglican. Correct me if I'm wrong.
They speak English in Egypt. I don't exactly know what you watch on TV. I am not talking about kassr el dobara or the like.
Is it one local church that speaks English or the entire Anglican Church in Egypt? If it's the latter, then I'm surprised. It was my understanding that all Protestant Churches (Anglican, Presbyterian, Episcopilian, etc) speak Arabic in Egypt.
Secondly, I guess the example you gave is far-fetched. What does what I said have anything to do with the Egyptian mentality of who drives for whom, and Egyptians going behind the priest's back?!!! I really don't see how I implied any such a thing in my posts, please clarify to me how you understood my original post.
It was not meant to parallel your original post. I was merely trying to show that there is a cultural and psychological gap between cultures. One can't expect to simply transpose an Egyptian culture in another country. There will be consequences. One must learn to assimilate to the new culture whatever way is necessary. That doesn't mean abandon your culture entirely. It means learn where you can give and take.
Thirdly, cultures change, yes, agreed, but they are still different. Coptic culture is part of the Coptic church which is different to the British culture inherent in the BOC, or the French, or the Indian, or the Syrian, or the Greek, or or or... yet they are all Orthodox
If we take Coptic to mean Egyptian, then not all Coptic Churches are Orthodox. There is Coptic Catholic. There is also Egyptian/Coptic Greek Catholic. There is even Muslims who learn Coptic. I understand you are comparing Orthodox Churches in different countries/cultures, but I'm just point out that associating a specific culture with a specific church is not looking at the broader meaning of culture/anthropology.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=11903.msg142197#msg142197 date=1311974325]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg142196#msg142196 date=1311969815]
Epiphania,
Please don't call me sweetheart.
I am not trying to purge EVERY egypian aspect about me. On the contrary, on my CV, i have indeed written that I can read Arabic.
I don't expect you to purge the Egyptian aspects about you, but READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!
You said that you are just as proud to be Egyptian as you are Coptic Orthodox. What is that?
That's a sin. I don't want a Church with people like you in it.
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
While there are great saints (in extraordinary numbers) and great history and great things to come out of Egypt, we must remember that we are not citizens of this world, as St. Paul says. We are called to be apart from the world--to live in it as though we are exiles. I learned a lot about this while reading Psalm 136, and reading the writings of the ascetical fathers about not being a part of the world. Even St. Paul says, "there is neither Greek or Jew, slave or free, man or woman, for Christ is all and in all." Egyptian really does not matter, Canadian really does not matter, American, British, French, Australian... it does not matter. To love being a nationality as much as being an Orthodox Christian is dangerous to one's soul, unless that nationality is the New Israel: the Holy Orthodox Church.
Now, shine, shine O New Jerusalem, for the glory of the Lord hath shone upon thee!
"He who loves their father, mother, brother, sister MORE THAN Me, is not worthy of Me."
I'm pretty sure we could even add nationality in there... thanks Joseph.Vanderbrink!!!
Well written also
then go find urself an FOC.
and read what I wrote. I said I am almost as proud of being Egyptian as I am of being Coptic. And think about WHY that would be! God blesses egypt! not Canada not the USA, not Europe! but EGYPT! her and and her people! Egyptians started monastisism! Egypt is the home of the COC. Egypt is the only place christ visited! despite the fact jorden or syria would both have been closer! Egypt has given more martyrs, great theologians, saints than any other place in the world! In revelation, Its EGYPT that stands against the antichrist. HECK YA, I'm proud of EGYPT!!
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS started monasticism! It was Saint Anthony!
If you are that PROUD to be Egyptian why the heck did you leave Egypt for??
Egypt is BLESSED, yes - definitely. But you are not in Egypt, and we are not in Egypt. If you want to BLESS canada, if you want Canada to be blessed, you cannot be of a spirit where you are more proud to be Egyptian than Canadian. THe Canadians there will hate you.
The same for France.
If I am French, and I am MORE proud to be Egyptian than French (even though France has done more for me than Egypt), then I will make French people hate me. They will despise me AND my Church.
Indeed, its an absolute disgrace the Church in Villejuif - outside Paris. There is a security man with large guard dog who stands outside the main entrance EVERY Sunday to stop the fights that happen.
The priest there doesn't speak a word of French. Its HUMILIATING TO originally from Egypt when I see these people and how they behave. It really is.
My family will be raised outside Egypt, I will never live there again, YET I AM COPTIC ORTHODOX!!
My love for Orthodoxy has indeed excelled my love for Egypt. I do not hate Egypt, but its just a country. And yes, my sincerity towards France is far greater than my sincerity towards Egypt.
OK.. Epiphania, just a question for you:
Let's say Egypt was at war with Canada. Which side would you be on? Which side would your children (if/when you have them) would they fight for?
Oh and by the way, here is where Egypt is heading if you haven't already realized:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14341089
Under Sharia law, you do not have the same status as a Muslim. So if your country treats you with such disdain, why would you be proud of it to that extent? Without Egypt being under Islamic Sharia Law, it ALREADY discriminates against Coptic Christians. Thus the reason why my parents left Egypt.
Now they are in Europe, HOW STUPID would it be then to go and love Egypt more than the host country that has treated me with respect and honored the citizenship they have given me!!???
Oh, and ONE last thing:
In Church (and even outside of it), YOU ARE AN AMBASSADOR TO CHRIST, NOT EGYPT!!! Understand your baptism, and what it means!
Evangelical churches in Egypt (as I found on wikipedia) are part of the "North American" denomination - that is as far as I could understand. So that is an example of a missionary church, who speak Arabic in Egypt, an Arab-speaking country. I have no qualms about that. In fact, the Orthodox counterpart to this, as imikhail has explained before is how the apostles preached the Gospel amongst all nations, never forcing their language or traditions, or Jesus' for that matter. Only the rituals and instructions they received from Him, which is more related to the faith as you quite rightly say.
What I was actually talking about is a church (that I believe belongs to the Church of England) which serves foreign communities in Egypt (not only English). They have an Australia priest, and an Egyptian "archdeacon" (or whatever is equivalent), and the service is in English, and the songs are in English. So you can see how this church serves to look after her flock (within the context of her culture), and be in another way missionary.
I don't understand, and honestly don't appreciate your indirectly ridiculing the Egyptian mentality in such a way. There is no secret in Egyptian people being more chaotic and irrational sometimes in taking matters into their own hands, but that has its reasons, and they are numerous. That doesn't give anybody the right to ridicule the whole nation, even if we laugh on facebook with the behaviour of illiterate Egyptians, and the show-offs know-it-all people. Please, at least for my sake, don't do that.
Dear Zoxsasi,
As I told Remenkimi now, and told Fr. Peter before, there is no harm in feeling proud in your ancestors and forefathers. You do understand very clearly I presume why people immigrate, and cannot stay in Egypt, making huge sacrifices (well, I hope you do understand), and the big example of that is your mother (and your father maybe) who are still close to their Coptic roots, in one way or another. Please don't say such things as "you go back to Egypt", "you don't deserve to be in Canada", and such things. I for one, am very proud to be Egyptian, and to have chosen to live in the UK, and make my life a success achieving my potential in this country. So, I have a double reason to be proud (as epiphania is I hope).
Dear Joseph.Vandenbrink,
In your first post you very clearly said the things I have been saying all along. You are learning a new language to assimilate yourself in a new culture that you like. This agrees so much I think with what Fr. Peter has been saying on people integrating into foreign communities and becoming part of them.
Oujai qen `P[C
There's nothing wrong with being proud about your birthplace. But are you also proud to be British?
Are you British??
I FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHY A PERSON GOING INTO AN ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CHURCH IN THE UK HAS TO EVEN HEAR ARABIC IN THE LITURGY!!! WHAT FOR???
Why should there be Arabic in an Oriental Orthodox Church in the UK,Belgium or France???
Are the Orthodox people there not integrated into their new country???
Did you tell the lawyer who gave you your British passport how proud you are to be Egyptian!??? Did you tell him that you are more faithful towards Egypt than England and the Queen!???
You are now a British subject. Your loyalty should be towards the UK. NOT EGYPT!!
If you are loyal towards England, why do you pray in Arabic in an Orthodox Church in the UK!?? Are you not integrated fully in British society??? Are you making a statement that Coptic Egyptian Christians living in the UK are JUST LIKE the muslims from Egypt who care not for the British values and culture and insist on having their imams pray and preach in Arabic!! You are no different.
You are in England! The Orthodox faith should not be associated with a language or any type of nationality. You've ISLAMIZED Orthodoxy!! The islamic faith insists that the Quran is read in Arabic. Its intertwined with a language and a culture. You cannot separate them.
If you could separate them, there would be NO ISSUE with Islam in Europe.
Instead, you have a situation where muslims are seen to be disassociated with British culture that their presence has even caused offense to many British nationals. You are NO different!!!
Let's say I was a French national, but Catholic.
If I were to travel to Brazil, and I find a Catholic Church, why would I hear the liturgy in French for in a Catholic Church in Brazil? It would be in Portuguese.
If I were to travel to Spain, and enter a Catholic Church there, what kind of mentality would expect the liturgy there to be in French??!!
If I were to travel to a Catholic Church in Egypt, I would expect to hear the SAME liturgy in Arabic.
Perhaps in every case, there maybe some Latin hymns (one or two), but the theology, the dogmas, the rites are the same except in the language.
However, with the Coptic Orthodox Church, EVERYTHING is in Arabic.
Catholics living in Spain are Spanish.
Coptic Orthodox living in Spain, are all Egyptians living in Spain. Do you see the difference!??
Coptic Christians living in France ARE NOT FRENCH!! They are Egyptians living in France.
Why should I have to learn Arabic to even participate in an Oriental Orthodox liturgy outside of Egypt??
First of all, one cannot forget his past, or his personal make-up when they move to another country. Forgetting your identity, or even only the things you learnt in childhood, and grew up with is a grave sin (I may argue). Only snakes (not aware of any other reptile, or animal) are capable of changing their skins. Only lizards (and maybe some insects) are capable of changing their colour. If you just shake off what you have lived with all your life just because you moved to another country, then you have no person, or identity. Britain, and maybe other countries in Europe but I haven't been to one, prides itself on its multiculturalism. You can live with your principles and your ideologies, including the dogmas you inherited, or taught, as long as you contribute positively to society, and not breach any rules. I personally am so proud of being an Egyptian, a descendant of the pharaohs, and when there are programme in the British TV about them, I am filled with awe, and pleasure. I am also so proud of my choosing Britain to solve deep dilemmas entrenched in third world countries including Egypt nowadays.
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear Zoxsasi,
First of all, one cannot forget his past, or his personal make-up when they move to another country. Forgetting your identity, or even only the things you learnt in childhood, and grew up with is a grave sin (I may argue). Only snakes (not aware of any other reptile, or animal) are capable of changing their skins. Only lizards (and maybe some insects) are capable of changing their colour. If you just shake off what you have lived with all your life just because you moved to another country, then you have no person, or identity. Britain, and maybe other countries in Europe but I haven't been to one, prides itself on its multiculturalism. You can live with your principles and your ideologies, including the dogmas you inherited, or taught, as long as you contribute positively to society, and not breach any rules. I personally am so proud of being an Egyptian, a descendant of the pharaohs, and when there are programme in the British TV about them, I am filled with awe, and pleasure. I am also so proud of my choosing Britain to solve deep dilemmas entrenched in third world countries including Egypt nowadays.
Oujai qen `P[C
Yeah.. i think you are not getting the point.
I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO FORGET ABOUT YOUR BIRTHPLACE!!!
I am asking you to not bring it into a Coptic Church that has NOTHING to do with with your birthplace.
If you have this SUDDEN urge to miss Egypt, don't take it out on the Church, and ask a priest to pray in Arabic... go to a nice Egyptian restaurant, have a shisha, and eat some falafel.
But leave Arabic out of a Church where it is in a country that does not speak Arabic!!
Why can you not understand me!!?? I am telling you that the Orthodox faith should have nothing to do with national identity. Yet, you as Egyptians, insist on bringing your culture into the Church. For goodness sake, Arabic isn't even your original language!!
Do you not understand, Ophadece, that there are Oriental Orthodox Christians that have nothing to do with Egypt who live OUTSIDE of Egypt???
Do you not think that it is insulting that the liturgy is done more often in Arabic than it is in their native language when you are in THEIR country!!!!
WAKE UP!!!!!!
I'm not asking you to change your skin. I'm asking you to have shwayet DAM!! This is totally insulting.
GO TO CHURCH TO WORSHIP YOUR CREATOR INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BE ACCEPTED BY OTHER PEOPLE.
Jeez, i hate complainers.
Zoxasi, how about another option that i have been thinking of this whole time.
GO TO CHURCH TO WORSHIP YOUR CREATOR INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BE ACCEPTED BY OTHER PEOPLE.
I think you're a bit of a time waster.
Here are the points I made, and please tell me what this has to do with me wanting to be accepted by other people:
WHY SHOULD THE HOLY LITURGY IN THE COPTIC CHURCH OUTSIDE EGYPT BE PRAYED IN ARABIC FOR??
What does this have to do with being accepted by other people!??? Its a matter of decency!
Do the Coptic CHristians in Belgium not speak French or Flemish?
Do those in France not speak French??
Why do they want to pray in Arabic for???
Does the being Coptic Orthodox oblige its congregation to speak Arabic as a prerequisite to enjoy the liturgy?!!!
The Quran must be prayed in Arabic. The Islamic religion is intertwined with a language. We are not this. We should not have this problem!
WHat is so difficult for you to understand this!!
So you insulted me Zoxsasi. OK, may God bless you man... pray for us please
Habibi, I am not insulting you. You mean when I said "have shawayet dam" - I really mean that Egyptians living outside Egypt (in the UK for example) should have shawyet dam and not have the arrogance of praying in Arabic in a country where Arabic is not the national language. There's no need for it.
You're not passing by in England. You have a British passport. You live in the UK. You're not going back to Egypt. No one is.
Ophadece, tell me ANOTHER word to use other than have "shawyet dam" ?!! Put yourself in my shoes... this is how it looks:
That Egyptians in the UK/FRANCE/BELGIUM, have no dam (ma3endehomsh dam).
How DARE a priest think that he can live in Belgium and pray ALL THE TIME in Arabic!!??? EVERY SUNDAY??
What is this!!??
What do you want me to say?? This is very insulting also to be exposed to this.
Go and re-read your post. You addressed me, are you aware? Or ashamed? Doesn't make a difference really. I think you are so resistant to discussion, and I really cannot see myself having a sane argument with you, for many reasons, mostly because you are aggravated, and secondly because I am Egyptian. I stop here...
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear Zoxsasi my brother,
Go and re-read your post. You addressed me, are you aware? Or ashamed? Doesn't make a difference really. I think you are so resistant to discussion, and I really cannot see myself having a sane argument with you, for many reasons, mostly because you are aggravated, and secondly because I am Egyptian. I stop here...
Oujai qen `P[C
OK.. I addressed you, but I meant EVERY Egyptian living outside Egypt.. not just you.
You don't have to answer.. but in my heart - EVERYONE who considers themselves European and not Egyptian, we think that Egyptians ma3endehomsh dam to pray in Arabic in European countries. This is a huge display/portrayal of disrespect to the country you are in. Period.
There's no answer!! That's how we feel.
Again, if there is another word, I would use it.
Oujai
Dear Remenkimi,
Evangelical churches in Egypt (as I found on wikipedia) are part of the "North American" denomination - that is as far as I could understand. So that is an example of a missionary church, who speak Arabic in Egypt, an Arab-speaking country.
On this site, there is a list of recognized and unrecognized religions in Egypt. You are speaking of the Evangelical Church, which was founded under the American Presbyterian Church. I was talking about the Anglican Church, which according to this article, is actually the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East. I don't know why they are called Anglican. I've seen them called this on Arabic TV stations and in the Keraza. I simply assumed they were under the Church of England (Anglican). The article is a little misleading. I don't think there is a Syrian Orthodox or an Armenian Orthodox (OO) Church in Egypt. I think they are simply talking about Syrian and Armenians living in Egypt. I don't know if there are Syrian and Armenian Orthodox Churches in Egypt. I don't think so. Other than the Greek Orthodox Church, there is no other Orthodox Church in Egypt - no Armenian Orthodox, no Syrian Orthodox, no Ethiopian Orthodox, no Eritrean Orthodox, no Indian Orthodox - even though there are Syrians, Armenians, Indians, Eritreans living in Egypt. The idea of multiple patriarchates occupying the same space is not an Orthodox concept. If it is not done in Egypt, why should advocate it in the US or the UK or any where else? (I know you didn't advocate this concept, imikhail did). The idea of establishing multiple churches based on culture is Catholic and Protestant (as you can see from the article).
What I was actually talking about is a church (that I believe belongs to the Church of England) which serves foreign communities in Egypt (not only English). They have an Australia priest, and an Egyptian "archdeacon" (or whatever is equivalent), and the service is in English, and the songs are in English. So you can see how this church serves to look after her flock (within the context of her culture), and be in another way missionary.
It still seems very strange that a Church in Egypt prays in English regularly when there are sooooo few English speaking parishioners there. Maybe they are trying to serve (or convert) English, American and European travelers in Egypt. But these are so few that it makes no sense to pray in English in Egypt (as Zoxasi is trying to explain). This one church seems to be an aberration. The substantial majority of Christian Churches in Egypt pray and worship in Arabic. It's interesting that this article states that the Greek Orthodox, Armenian Catholics, Syrian Catholics, Greek Catholics, Episcopal/Anglican, Maronite are non-native. One could expect them to pray and daily communicate in a non-Arabic language since they are non-native. They haven't fully internalized the Egyptian culture. Although I think they probably pray and communicate in Arabic than other languages. The article does not speak about languages.
I don't understand, and honestly don't appreciate your indirectly ridiculing the Egyptian mentality in such a way. There is no secret in Egyptian people being more chaotic and irrational sometimes in taking matters into their own hands, but that has its reasons, and they are numerous. That doesn't give anybody the right to ridicule the whole nation, even if we laugh on facebook with the behaviour of illiterate Egyptians, and the show-offs know-it-all people. Please, at least for my sake, don't do that.
I apologize if you thought I was ridiculing Egyptians. I'm not. I am one of them. I was simply trying to show examples of cultural conflict (transposing a culture into a different country) and how it can't be ignored even though many Egyptians are causing cultural conflict by ignoring the social, political, and economical processes. I only used Egyptians because I am only familiar with Egyptians. But the same is true with the Chinese, Indian, Amish, and other isolated groups in America.
I think most people will agree that it's good to be proud of your heritage, ancestors and traditions. But not at the expense of serving non-Egyptians. Not at the expense of isolating ourselves from those who are not Egyptian. Not at the expense of our citizenship to our new emigrant country. When you become American, you pledge allegiance to America. You are expected first and foremost to be American and serve Americans. Again, past experience says too many Egyptians are emigrating without any knowledge of America, just wanting a mini-Egypt in America. It is symptomatic of an anti-unity trend which is not Orthodox, nor Christian.