Sorry, Biboboy, but the Latin Church has not been Orthodox for many, many centuries, so saying that their Mass was Orthodox while the church praying it was not doesn't really make much sense. I think I know the way that you might have meant it (it was a lot more serious, and hence closer in some vague way to the approach of the Orthodox to their own liturgies), but I think it's important not to fall into the same trap of the so-called "Traditionalist Catholics" who somehow think that if they could just turn the clock back to about 1950 in the Roman Catholic Church, everything would be perfect. It most certainly would not. They'd still be unorthodox.
As for Orthodox Latin (in the sense of "Hispanic") liturgies, did you know that the Byzantine Orthodox (EO) actually use a form of the traditional Mozarabic liturgy in Spain? This was the liturgy as it was celebrated in Moorish Spain and Portugal, which is still celebrated in the churches (RC and Orthodox, though I think only the RC make regular use of it) in and around Toledo, Spain. The Roman Catholics in the area have used it continuously since at least the 15th century, following a period of a few hundred years of semi-successful suppression under hegemony-minded Popes (who were never supported by the laity in Spain in the attempt to force the 'standard' Roman Mass on the church in their country). Here is a clip of it as it is celebrated by the EO in Spain:
I've actually found it pretty difficult to find a clip of similar quality as it is celebrated in the RC, which actually is not all that different than the EO usage except for the use instruments in some cases. But there are many, many videos of various reconstructions of Mozarabic liturgical chant, most of which are quite good and hardly ever use instruments. Check it out:
Prex Eucharistica (by La Capilla Gregoriana del Santisimo Cristo del Calvario de Merida)
Deus Miserere (by the Bristol University 'Schola Cantorum')
This is as close to "Orthodox" as Roman Catholics can get, praxis-wise, as this is the way they would have (and to their credit, in a few select places still do) worshiped prior to the Great Schism, when their theology was likewise much more in tune with the Roman East/Byzantines than it is now.
Maybe it's my faux-Hispanicness coming out, but I find it quite compelling. :) Even the version with instruments that I own (Philips' classic 1967 recording by the Choir of the Seminary of Toledo) is really something very special. This fits in quite well, I think, with the overall theme of the thread, as it concerns what is native to the church. In Spain they had their own native liturgy that was entirely orthodox (having developed organically out of the give and take between the old Visigothic liturgy and the cultural/artistic influence of the Moors on the Mozarabs), and I think it is great to see that both Catholic and Orthodox churches in the area do their part to preserve that authentic heritage.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=11903.msg142743#msg142743 date=1312770963] some of the catholic liturgical practices are a bit strange, but the people who are allowed to distribute the consecrated bread are very carefully chosen
NONSENSE!!!
The Catholic Church in Paris called me and invited me as a member of the Orthodox Church to pray with them in the Church for the Ecumenical Unity Day (its in the summer every year).
I went along, and just had to read a passage from the Bible in French.. that's it.
They invited me, a Protestant, an Anglican, a Lutheran etc..
At the end of the liturgy, the priest asked me "Would you like to distribute the Body of Christ?"
I said to him (and I KNOW THIS PRIEST VERY WELL ALSO)... "Father, i'm really touched by the offer, but I'm not a priest, I recommend that you do it".
Guess what he did!???
Out of all the things he could have done, he chose the worst option:
HE GAVE IT TO THE PROTESTANT LADY TO DISTRIBUTE..
So , in the Catholic Church, if you are unaware, what happens during communion, is that the priest says to the person taking the Body of Christ :"This is the Body of Christ". THe person taking it then says "AMEN".
Well, this protestant lady DOES NOT BELIEVE that its the Body of Christ... what kind of FARCE is this!! ENOUGH ALREADY!!
That church service did more to ruin unity than it did to unite anything.
The catholics are really dopey! THEY ought to be focusing on uniting with the Orthodox NOT the protestants...
it is really difficult to do this and each church only has 1 or 2 people who are allowed to do this, who have to have a really good knowledge of the faith and a good spiritual life.
in the first years of Christianity, lay people were allowed to take home the consecrated bread and it was only later when it was realised that there could be misuse that there were stricter rules about it. so that in itself is not a shocking thing.
zoxsasi, u have told us of this incident before. i really doubt it's a common occurrence. i worshipped regularly (about twice a month, i went to orthodox mass on saturdays in a church far from home) in a catholic church from 2007 to 2009 and i spent quite a lot of time talking with someone who had the job of distributing the consecrated bread and who regularly corresponded with the wider catholic community in the uk. incidentally, i used to then go to the anglican service afterwards. it was really similar to the catholic one.
Are your friends like the Syrian Orthodox guy I met last week, who is trying to show some solidarity with the Muslims of Philadelphia by joing their useless Ramadan half-fasting?
Well,
Concerned that Toronto Catholic schools will adopt a policy promoting tolerance of homosexuality, a Coptic Orthodox priest is calling upon parents to consider withdrawing their children from the schools.
This begs the question if they would feel less marginalized simply by being around people of the same culture as they are. I thought that's what the this thread was against (confusing culture with Orthodoxy, thereby turning the church into an Egyptian/French/Syriac/whatever social club).
Does this prove that the two are not so easily separated (as your friends want a church they can fit into just like the Egyptians want a church that they can fit into), or am I misunderstanding the nature of your friends' problems with the Church?
I think, in all fairness, my friend's problems are caused by a bad situation in a particular Church that is not really applicable to all Churches. Sure, in some cases not so long ago, the situation was widespread simply because the priests could not speak the native language, which meant that understanding the liturgy, the sermon, the prayers, and even participating in the sacrament of confession was generally futile.
This discussion is far too chaotic for me to follow with understanding. It seems to me that the conversation is driven by several self-impressed new and/ or bored “deep thinkers” who are not ashamed to insist that they have a better and more effective way to perform the Coptic liturgical services than those which have been prayerfully handed down to us through the rich, constantly persecuted history of the church. The most vigorous renovation is demanded to our 1000 (?) suffering year old Arabic liturgies. Although I can only understand and sing a few short, simple Arabic responses, it has always been obvious to me, in every general parish liturgy that I have attended, throughout the U.S., that the prayers of the heart of the congregation are those sung in Arabic, the current heartfelt language of the immigrant congregation. The communal spirit of experiencing these enthusiastic Arabic prayers is richer than any which have ever been recited in any English service, ever. Traditional English/ American hymns are military battle calls, ever changing fads, or sensuous love calls. Go somewhere else to suffer these.
I have been praying in Coptic Churches for about 25 years and I have usually been able to find a Liturgy book with comprehendible English so that I can reasonably follow the Liturgy. I think an admirable job has been done in improving the English/ Coptic/ Arabic Liturgy Books. The U.S. Coptic Church has also steadily improved the 3 language service books for Midnight Psalmody and Holy Week. Many classic Coptic commentaries, contemplations , synaxarions, agpeyas, Saints’ lives, etc. have also been improved from earlier versions with primative English translations. I don’t think any other immigrant church in the history of the world has done such a commendable job of making its basic spiritual literature available in the new host language. The Russian Orthodox have also done a commendable, comprehensive job, but they have been in the U.S, for over 200 years (and still strive to pray and hymn primarily in Old Slavonic). None of the other U.S. Orthodox jurisdictions who have been here for about 100 years, or more, have accomplished close to this Coptic standard. It is tedious, confusing work to meaningfully join into the Coptic/ Ethiopean (and Russian Orthodox) liturgical life. The usual reward is a humble, cultural social hour, or more (recall the 5 loaves and 2 fish?). At a new parish, it takes a while to become mutually comfortable - but you shouldn’t also be hungry. For many of these reasons, not many visiting Americans stay long, or return soon. They usually think only of themselves. Why suffer to join heretical monophysites, and eat strange tasting beans, with your fingers? But, it is pure Irish (or Sahedi) to some of us.
I may have missed someone, but I haven’t noted that we have any practicing, professional level language and literature experts in the Egyptian Arabic (in which the last approx. 1000 years of the thought and life of our church has been recorded. Aren’t these Coptic arabic writings of our “recent” fathers our key to recovering understanding of their/ our Coptic/ Greek founding fathers?); and in academic/ theological English, for our present and future translations and edification. For example, I can’t find that any of Anba Gregorios’ highly admired theological works are precisely translated to English. Understandably, the English in many translations are unintentionally (but some seem to be intentional) inaccurate.
Couldn’t the hangover from the demonic ingredients of the current “modern” Copt’s partying cocktail: 50% ridicule of Coptic Egyptian (arabic/ parental) “culture” and 50% experiment with rebellious feminism/ freudianism; be the poisoning of the institution of God established patriarchal Coptic families, which have supported our Coptic Orthodox Church since its establishment by the Holy Family’s visit and by St. Mark’s martyrdom? Orthodox should carefully nourish our fathers’ ways, not risk addiction to Satan’s newest temptations.
In order to give you a taste of the eventual reality of the idealized self-pleasing, modern “orthodox” churches that some hypothesize that the Western Coptic Church can become, I would like to share some of the soap-operatic recent episodes in life of the two modern American Orthodox “beauty queens.” The OCA and the Antiochian (blah, blah, blah) Archdiocese. The sad pathos of their remarkably similar recent struggles are objectively chronicled at http://www.ocanews.org/news.html.
The admirable editor of ocanews.org included a philosophical ode that describes the frustration of cowardly unproven challenged statements like those of Cephas.
The philosopher Eric Voegelin once noted:
“We have all had occasion at one time or another to engage in debate with those for whom no appeal to facts, or events or witnesses has effect. And we have all discovered on such occasions that no agreement, or even an honest disagreement, could be reached. Rational argument could not prevail because the partner to the discussion did not accept as binding for himself the matrix of reality ... the universe of rational discourse collapses, one may say, when the common ground of existence in reality has disappeared.” We cannot withdraw from such a debate though, Voegelin continues, and just let error proceed , for error, in the real world, has consequences, often dire. We must, in Voegelin’s words, “seek to diagnose untrue existence, and to initiate, if possible, thereby, a healing process.”
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11903.msg142931#msg142931 date=1312986237] I may have missed someone, but I haven’t noted that we have any practicing, professional level language and literature experts in the Egyptian Arabic (in which the last approx. 1000 years of the thought and life of our church has been recorded. Arabic in the Coptic Church, at least in liturgical books, do not use Egyptian Arabic. Egyptian Arabic is the colloquial spoken Arabic dialect in Egypt. The liturgical texts (with the exception of Kiahk hymns) are predominately Modern Standard Arabic with Copticized words. Most euchologian books, if they have Arabic, mostly date to the 17-19th century. Few are found in the 13th-14th century. So it is not a thousand years old. Other books by 12-15th century writers, like Severus of Ashmunin and Ibn Kabar are different the Modern Standard Arabic. There has been a few professional studies on Arabic literature of the Coptic Church. But it is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Aren’t these Coptic arabic writings of our “recent” fathers our key to recovering understanding of their/ our Coptic/ Greek founding fathers?);
No. The writings and understanding of recent fathers (and I'm talking about 10-14th century) is similar in a broad sense but it is not the same as the patristic writings of the early fathers. We can get clues of the ancient writers from Arabic, Syriac, Ethiopic and Coptic translations from the 10th-14th centuries, but the style, theology, understanding is not necessarily passed on to later generations.
In order to give you a taste of the eventual reality of the idealized self-pleasing, modern “orthodox” churches that some hypothesize that the Western Coptic Church can become, I would like to share some of the soap-operatic recent episodes in life of the two modern American Orthodox “beauty queens.” The OCA and the Antiochian (blah, blah, blah) Archdiocese. The sad pathos of their remarkably similar recent struggles are objectively chronicled at http://www.ocanews.org/news.html.
Your links do not work. The website you refer to is nothing but a group who wants to complain about the OCA and Antiochian Churches. There is nothing objective about it. There is even a blog entry trying to show why the OCA should accept homosexuality, reverbing the LGBT's claim that homosexuality is translated wrong in the Bible. The web site says nothing that pertains to language, culture, or missionary ecumenism or this thread. Your claim of a soap-operatic episode, including than supposed OCA's mishandling of financial funds, does not constitute any parallels to the Coptic Church or this thread. This thread is neither on the OCA, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, financial scandal, homosexuality or anything else you rant about.
The admirable editor of ocanews.org included a philosophical ode that describes the frustration of cowardly unproven challenged statements like those of Cephas.
Another example of your ranting. What did Cephas say that is cowardly and rebutted by the editor of this website? How can you possibly say this website has an admirable editor when there is nothing productive, informative and Christian in it?
The philosopher Eric Voegelin once noted:
“We have all had occasion at one time or another to engage in debate with those for whom no appeal to facts, or events or witnesses has effect. And we have all discovered on such occasions that no agreement, or even an honest disagreement, could be reached. Rational argument could not prevail because the partner to the discussion did not accept as binding for himself the matrix of reality ... the universe of rational discourse collapses, one may say, when the common ground of existence in reality has disappeared.” We cannot withdraw from such a debate though, Voegelin continues, and just let error proceed , for error, in the real world, has consequences, often dire. We must, in Voegelin’s words, “seek to diagnose untrue existence, and to initiate, if possible, thereby, a healing process.”
Funny, I thought of your ranting when I read this. In your universe of rational discourse, everyone who disagrees with you is a demonic, rebellious, freudian, feminist, Satan-loving, patriarch-hating, fundamentalist. There is nothing rational in your discourse and there is no existence of the matrix of reality. Voegelin's quote is the definition of your rant.
PS. Please do us the favor of not writing a 15,000 word message about how I am a demonic feminist. Stick to the subject.
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11903.msg142931#msg142931 date=1312986237] Darn, I'm still making Junk Mail. I'll try again.
Excuse me,
This discussion is far too chaotic for me to follow with understanding. It seems to me that the conversation is driven by several self-impressed new and/ or bored “deep thinkers” who are not ashamed to insist that they have a better and more effective way to perform the Coptic liturgical services than those which have been prayerfully handed down to us through the rich, constantly persecuted history of the church. The most vigorous renovation is demanded to our 1000 (?) suffering year old Arabic liturgies. Although I can only understand and sing a few short, simple Arabic responses, it has always been obvious to me, in every general parish liturgy that I have attended, throughout the U.S., that the prayers of the heart of the congregation are those sung in Arabic, the current heartfelt language of the immigrant congregation. The communal spirit of experiencing these enthusiastic Arabic prayers is richer than any which have ever been recited in any English service, ever. Traditional English/ American hymns are military battle calls, ever changing fads, or sensuous love calls. Go somewhere else to suffer these.
I have been praying in Coptic Churches for about 25 years and I have usually been able to find a Liturgy book with comprehendible English so that I can reasonably follow the Liturgy. I think an admirable job has been done in improving the English/ Coptic/ Arabic Liturgy Books. The U.S. Coptic Church has also steadily improved the 3 language service books for Midnight Psalmody and Holy Week. Many classic Coptic commentaries, contemplations , synaxarions, agpeyas, Saints’ lives, etc. have also been improved from earlier versions with primative English translations. I don’t think any other immigrant church in the history of the world has done such a commendable job of making its basic spiritual literature available in the new host language. The Russian Orthodox have also done a commendable, comprehensive job, but they have been in the U.S, for over 200 years (and still strive to pray and hymn primarily in Old Slavonic). None of the other U.S. Orthodox jurisdictions who have been here for about 100 years, or more, have accomplished close to this Coptic standard. It is tedious, confusing work to meaningfully join into the Coptic/ Ethiopean (and Russian Orthodox) liturgical life. The usual reward is a humble, cultural social hour, or more (recall the 5 loaves and 2 fish?). At a new parish, it takes a while to become mutually comfortable - but you shouldn’t also be hungry. For many of these reasons, not many visiting Americans stay long, or return soon. They usually think only of themselves. Why suffer to join heretical monophysites, and eat strange tasting beans, with your fingers? But, it is pure Irish (or Sahedi) to some of us.
I may have missed someone, but I haven’t noted that we have any practicing, professional level language and literature experts in the Egyptian Arabic (in which the last approx. 1000 years of the thought and life of our church has been recorded. Aren’t these Coptic arabic writings of our “recent” fathers our key to recovering understanding of their/ our Coptic/ Greek founding fathers?); and in academic/ theological English, for our present and future translations and edification. For example, I can’t find that any of Anba Gregorios’ highly admired theological works are precisely translated to English. Understandably, the English in many translations are unintentionally (but some seem to be intentional) inaccurate.
Couldn’t the hangover from the demonic ingredients of the current “modern” Copt’s partying ****tail: 50% ridicule of Coptic Egyptian (arabic/ parental) “culture” and 50% experiment with rebellious feminism/ freudianism; be the poisoning of the institution of God established patriarchal Coptic families, which have supported our Coptic Orthodox Church since its establishment by the Holy Family’s visit and by St. Mark’s martyrdom? Orthodox should carefully nourish our fathers’ ways, not risk addiction to Satan’s newest temptations.
In order to give you a taste of the eventual reality of the idealized self-pleasing, modern “orthodox” churches that some hypothesize that the Western Coptic Church can become, I would like to share some of the soap-operatic recent episodes in life of the two modern American Orthodox “beauty queens.” The OCA and the Antiochian (blah, blah, blah) Archdiocese. The sad pathos of their remarkably similar recent struggles are objectively chronicled at http://www.ocanews.org/news.html.
The admirable editor of ocanews.org included a philosophical ode that describes the frustration of cowardly unproven challenged statements like those of Cephas.
The philosopher Eric Voegelin once noted:
“We have all had occasion at one time or another to engage in debate with those for whom no appeal to facts, or events or witnesses has effect. And we have all discovered on such occasions that no agreement, or even an honest disagreement, could be reached. Rational argument could not prevail because the partner to the discussion did not accept as binding for himself the matrix of reality ... the universe of rational discourse collapses, one may say, when the common ground of existence in reality has disappeared.” We cannot withdraw from such a debate though, Voegelin continues, and just let error proceed , for error, in the real world, has consequences, often dire. We must, in Voegelin’s words, “seek to diagnose untrue existence, and to initiate, if possible, thereby, a healing process.”
Ok, this is just ridiculous. You need to stop writing these kinds of messages. You just wrote a 5 page insult. I hope you feel accomplished.
Thank you for taking the time to address a few of my misunderstandings about the history and traditions of the Coptic Church. In my experience most of the substantive discussions (oral and written ) that I am aware of, in the churches that I have attended, are in Arabic. I understand that the level of Arabic used by these speakers varies. Many friends who have tried to translate for me have apologized because they couldn’t understand the speakers’ meanings clearly enough. Another problem is that many who have tried to translate for me are not familiar with the proper comparable English theological terms. Rather than complain, or give up, like Zoxsasi’s friends have apparently done, I have found sufficient Coptic spiritual nourishment from the crumbs I can gather, here and there. When I grope around, like here, I’m satisfied; and gain some level of understanding. I don’t become frustrated, but seemingly frustrate others. Is that what you call Sahedi?
As I have tried to mention, I am limited because it is nearly impossible for me to study many Coptic recent issues because the author, naturally writes in Arabic. I can personally understand this process, because, as you have noted, I am even challenged to write skillfully in English. I have mentioned that I have been trying for several years to obtain some of Anba Gregorios’ Arabic writings on Orthodox marriage and family theology so that I can have some friend translate them. I’ve been told some myths, that Anba Gregorios wouldn’t permit some, possibly inaccurate, translations to English. These types of puzzles led me to speculate that rich Coptic Church literature, in Arabic, (Anba Gregorios, for example) will never be translated to precise English. I’ve been told that there are significant word meanings differences in the various Arabic speaking cultures. I had guessed, wrongly, that important Coptic Church writers and thinkers had began using Arabic within about 500 years after Islam came to Egypt. I was not thinking about early liturgical records, but about works more like commentaries, contemplations, etc., such as I suspect that Anba Gregorios, or Arabic speaking desert fathers produced. I don’t know where my copy of Iris el Masri’s history is. Probably given away to an inquirer. In summary, it doesn’t seem that these speculative discussions of the end of Coptic Arabic in any modern, secular Western milieu is rationally beneficial from any point of view.
I have had several friends who quickly lost interest in the Coptic Church, for explained and unexplained reasons. Others maintained interest through baptism and then drifted off for various reasons, including the monophysite slander. I gathered that Zoxsasi and others were impatient for the church to abandon use of Arabic and traditional hymns and to immediately adapt the host Western language and host “catchy” protestant music. This rush to invent a popular, abbreviated, “evangelical-like” quasi-Orthodox “knockoff” has been the “vision” and practice of the OCA and Antiochian Churches since, at least, about 1983, when I began looking for a comfortable alternative to my seemingly apostacized/ modernized U.S. Catholic Church. I was blessed to be too lazy and too unorthodox to start-off my pilgrimage in the available traditional Oriental Orthodox Churches, ROCOR, Greek Old Calendar, etc. So, I spent about 10 years attending, primarily the “ecumenical” OCA, Antiochian and Greek Churches. This experience confirmed to me that the objective accounts, posted on ocanews, of the seemingly “soap-operatic” recent episodes in the life of the OCA and Antiochian Churches are similar to the natural apostacies that should be expected from innovated, intellectualized, experimental ecumenism. Do you deny that similar “soap-operatic” episodes have occured in the similarly ecumenical experiments in the apostate Western Catholic and Protestant Churches? The apostasy rates seem pretty consistent. It seems that evasive systemic symptoms of demonic spiritual poverty are evident. I pray that the Coptic Church leadership (if fully informed, wouldn’t the membership object?) will correct its seemingly secretive experimental adventures into the feminism and freudianism branches of the demonic ecumenism heresy, which it now seems to seek to share with the liberal, ecumenical OCA, Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches. I have followed ocanews for several years and for these reasons, I admire the seeming balanced, intelligent, objective depth and honesty that is consistently demonstrated by the editor and frustrated sincere contributors. Growing Coptic feminism/ freudianism seems to have a realistic potential to foment episodes of related demonic “modern” embarrasments in the Coptic Church. Witness the apparent freudian marketing genius of Priest B.S. And geomike?
On July 1, 2011, (Re: Marital problems and not healthy enviroment---Priest help needed « Reply #72 on: July 01, 2011, 01:53:32 PM »)Cephas posted unauthenticated, factual personal and theological misrepresentations that I have repeatedly challenged and asked him to prove or withdraw. I think that Eric Voegelin’s maxim concerning dishonest debate is relevant, and hopefully remedial.
I have tried to rationally respond in appreciation for your seeming corrections; and in consideration for my real concerns, especially for the, always relevant, increasing numbers of pastorally neglected Coptic children and father victims of encouraged Coptic feminist shrews/ divorcers.. Do you have any further critical facts, events, or witnesses, etc.? I’ll try to respond. These polemical seeming “rants” are obviously an uncomfortable personal dilemma. I’d rather be camping with my 2nd generation divorce traumatized grandchildren; and leave you in peace to abstractly “see and dream no evil.”
Comments
As for Orthodox Latin (in the sense of "Hispanic") liturgies, did you know that the Byzantine Orthodox (EO) actually use a form of the traditional Mozarabic liturgy in Spain? This was the liturgy as it was celebrated in Moorish Spain and Portugal, which is still celebrated in the churches (RC and Orthodox, though I think only the RC make regular use of it) in and around Toledo, Spain. The Roman Catholics in the area have used it continuously since at least the 15th century, following a period of a few hundred years of semi-successful suppression under hegemony-minded Popes (who were never supported by the laity in Spain in the attempt to force the 'standard' Roman Mass on the church in their country). Here is a clip of it as it is celebrated by the EO in Spain:
Mozarabic Liturgy (part I)
I've actually found it pretty difficult to find a clip of similar quality as it is celebrated in the RC, which actually is not all that different than the EO usage except for the use instruments in some cases. But there are many, many videos of various reconstructions of Mozarabic liturgical chant, most of which are quite good and hardly ever use instruments. Check it out:
Prex Eucharistica (by La Capilla Gregoriana del Santisimo Cristo del Calvario de Merida)
Gratias Dei Patris (by Ensemble Organum)
Deus Miserere (by the Bristol University 'Schola Cantorum')
This is as close to "Orthodox" as Roman Catholics can get, praxis-wise, as this is the way they would have (and to their credit, in a few select places still do) worshiped prior to the Great Schism, when their theology was likewise much more in tune with the Roman East/Byzantines than it is now.
Maybe it's my faux-Hispanicness coming out, but I find it quite compelling. :) Even the version with instruments that I own (Philips' classic 1967 recording by the Choir of the Seminary of Toledo) is really something very special. This fits in quite well, I think, with the overall theme of the thread, as it concerns what is native to the church. In Spain they had their own native liturgy that was entirely orthodox (having developed organically out of the give and take between the old Visigothic liturgy and the cultural/artistic influence of the Moors on the Mozarabs), and I think it is great to see that both Catholic and Orthodox churches in the area do their part to preserve that authentic heritage.
some of the catholic liturgical practices are a bit strange, but the people who are allowed to distribute the consecrated bread are very carefully chosen
NONSENSE!!!
The Catholic Church in Paris called me and invited me as a member of the Orthodox Church to pray with them in the Church for the Ecumenical Unity Day (its in the summer every year).
I went along, and just had to read a passage from the Bible in French.. that's it.
They invited me, a Protestant, an Anglican, a Lutheran etc..
At the end of the liturgy, the priest asked me "Would you like to distribute the Body of Christ?"
I said to him (and I KNOW THIS PRIEST VERY WELL ALSO)... "Father, i'm really touched by the offer, but I'm not a priest, I recommend that you do it".
Guess what he did!???
Out of all the things he could have done, he chose the worst option:
HE GAVE IT TO THE PROTESTANT LADY TO DISTRIBUTE..
So , in the Catholic Church, if you are unaware, what happens during communion, is that the priest says to the person taking the Body of Christ :"This is the Body of Christ". THe person taking it then says "AMEN".
Well, this protestant lady DOES NOT BELIEVE that its the Body of Christ... what kind of FARCE is this!! ENOUGH ALREADY!!
That church service did more to ruin unity than it did to unite anything.
The catholics are really dopey! THEY ought to be focusing on uniting with the Orthodox NOT the protestants... Remarkable
All that bothers me is that you ought to share it and allow people to access it. THat's ALL we are saying!!
u have told us of this incident before.
i really doubt it's a common occurrence. i worshipped regularly (about twice a month, i went to orthodox mass on saturdays in a church far from home) in a catholic church from 2007 to 2009 and i spent quite a lot of time talking with someone who had the job of distributing the consecrated bread and who regularly corresponded with the wider catholic community in the uk.
incidentally, i used to then go to the anglican service afterwards.
it was really similar to the catholic one.
Well,
Concerned that Toronto Catholic schools will adopt a policy promoting tolerance of homosexuality, a Coptic Orthodox priest is calling upon parents to consider withdrawing their children from the schools.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=11295&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+(Catholic+World+News+(on+CatholicCulture.org))
Orthodox Christians will be persecuted in the coming days even harder for such positions (for being true Christians)
Let's not confuse the issue.. my friends feel really marginalized in the Church because they are not egyptian speakers nor Egyptian.
That's all.
Does this prove that the two are not so easily separated (as your friends want a church they can fit into just like the Egyptians want a church that they can fit into), or am I misunderstanding the nature of your friends' problems with the Church?
Excuse me,
This discussion is far too chaotic for me to follow with understanding. It seems to me that the conversation is driven by several self-impressed new and/ or bored “deep thinkers” who are not ashamed to insist that they have a better and more effective way to perform the Coptic liturgical services than those which have been prayerfully handed down to us through the rich, constantly persecuted history of the church. The most vigorous renovation is demanded to our 1000 (?) suffering year old Arabic liturgies. Although I can only understand and sing a few short, simple Arabic responses, it has always been obvious to me, in every general parish liturgy that I have attended, throughout the U.S., that the prayers of the heart of the congregation are those sung in Arabic, the current heartfelt language of the immigrant congregation. The communal spirit of experiencing these enthusiastic Arabic prayers is richer than any which have ever been recited in any English service, ever. Traditional English/ American hymns are military battle calls, ever changing fads, or sensuous love calls. Go somewhere else to suffer these.
I have been praying in Coptic Churches for about 25 years and I have usually been able to find a Liturgy book with comprehendible English so that I can reasonably follow the Liturgy. I think an admirable job has been done in improving the English/ Coptic/ Arabic Liturgy Books. The U.S. Coptic Church has also steadily improved the 3 language service books for Midnight Psalmody and Holy Week. Many classic Coptic commentaries, contemplations , synaxarions, agpeyas, Saints’ lives, etc. have also been improved from earlier versions with primative English translations. I don’t think any other immigrant church in the history of the world has done such a commendable job of making its basic spiritual literature available in the new host language. The Russian Orthodox have also done a commendable, comprehensive job, but they have been in the U.S, for over 200 years (and still strive to pray and hymn primarily in Old Slavonic). None of the other U.S. Orthodox jurisdictions who have been here for about 100 years, or more, have accomplished close to this Coptic standard. It is tedious, confusing work to meaningfully join into the Coptic/ Ethiopean (and Russian Orthodox) liturgical life. The usual reward is a humble, cultural social hour, or more (recall the 5 loaves and 2 fish?). At a new parish, it takes a while to become mutually comfortable - but you shouldn’t also be hungry. For many of these reasons, not many visiting Americans stay long, or return soon. They usually think only of themselves. Why suffer to join heretical monophysites, and eat strange tasting beans, with your fingers? But, it is pure Irish (or Sahedi) to some of us.
I may have missed someone, but I haven’t noted that we have any practicing, professional level language and literature experts in the Egyptian Arabic (in which the last approx. 1000 years of the thought and life of our church has been recorded. Aren’t these Coptic arabic writings of our “recent” fathers our key to recovering understanding of their/ our Coptic/ Greek founding fathers?); and in academic/ theological English, for our present and future translations and edification. For example, I can’t find that any of Anba Gregorios’ highly admired theological works are precisely translated to English. Understandably, the English in many translations are unintentionally (but some seem to be intentional) inaccurate.
Couldn’t the hangover from the demonic ingredients of the current “modern” Copt’s partying cocktail: 50% ridicule of Coptic Egyptian (arabic/ parental) “culture” and 50% experiment with rebellious feminism/ freudianism; be the poisoning of the institution of God established patriarchal Coptic families, which have supported our Coptic Orthodox Church since its establishment by the Holy Family’s visit and by St. Mark’s martyrdom? Orthodox should carefully nourish our fathers’ ways, not risk addiction to Satan’s newest temptations.
In order to give you a taste of the eventual reality of the idealized self-pleasing, modern “orthodox” churches that some hypothesize that the Western Coptic Church can become, I would like to share some of the soap-operatic recent episodes in life of the two modern American Orthodox “beauty queens.” The OCA and the Antiochian (blah, blah, blah) Archdiocese. The sad pathos of their remarkably similar recent struggles are objectively chronicled at http://www.ocanews.org/news.html.
The admirable editor of ocanews.org included a philosophical ode that describes the frustration of cowardly unproven challenged statements like those of Cephas.
I may have missed someone, but I haven’t noted that we have any practicing, professional level language and literature experts in the Egyptian Arabic (in which the last approx. 1000 years of the thought and life of our church has been recorded.
Arabic in the Coptic Church, at least in liturgical books, do not use Egyptian Arabic. Egyptian Arabic is the colloquial spoken Arabic dialect in Egypt. The liturgical texts (with the exception of Kiahk hymns) are predominately Modern Standard Arabic with Copticized words. Most euchologian books, if they have Arabic, mostly date to the 17-19th century. Few are found in the 13th-14th century. So it is not a thousand years old. Other books by 12-15th century writers, like Severus of Ashmunin and Ibn Kabar are different the Modern Standard Arabic. There has been a few professional studies on Arabic literature of the Coptic Church. But it is beyond the scope of this discussion. No. The writings and understanding of recent fathers (and I'm talking about 10-14th century) is similar in a broad sense but it is not the same as the patristic writings of the early fathers. We can get clues of the ancient writers from Arabic, Syriac, Ethiopic and Coptic translations from the 10th-14th centuries, but the style, theology, understanding is not necessarily passed on to later generations. Your links do not work. The website you refer to is nothing but a group who wants to complain about the OCA and Antiochian Churches. There is nothing objective about it. There is even a blog entry trying to show why the OCA should accept homosexuality, reverbing the LGBT's claim that homosexuality is translated wrong in the Bible. The web site says nothing that pertains to language, culture, or missionary ecumenism or this thread. Your claim of a soap-operatic episode, including than supposed OCA's mishandling of financial funds, does not constitute any parallels to the Coptic Church or this thread. This thread is neither on the OCA, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, financial scandal, homosexuality or anything else you rant about. Another example of your ranting. What did Cephas say that is cowardly and rebutted by the editor of this website? How can you possibly say this website has an admirable editor when there is nothing productive, informative and Christian in it? Funny, I thought of your ranting when I read this. In your universe of rational discourse, everyone who disagrees with you is a demonic, rebellious, freudian, feminist, Satan-loving, patriarch-hating, fundamentalist. There is nothing rational in your discourse and there is no existence of the matrix of reality. Voegelin's quote is the definition of your rant.
PS. Please do us the favor of not writing a 15,000 word message about how I am a demonic feminist. Stick to the subject.
LOL! Oh Remnkemi, you really crack me up.
:D
Darn, I'm still making Junk Mail. I'll try again.
Excuse me,
This discussion is far too chaotic for me to follow with understanding. It seems to me that the conversation is driven by several self-impressed new and/ or bored “deep thinkers” who are not ashamed to insist that they have a better and more effective way to perform the Coptic liturgical services than those which have been prayerfully handed down to us through the rich, constantly persecuted history of the church. The most vigorous renovation is demanded to our 1000 (?) suffering year old Arabic liturgies. Although I can only understand and sing a few short, simple Arabic responses, it has always been obvious to me, in every general parish liturgy that I have attended, throughout the U.S., that the prayers of the heart of the congregation are those sung in Arabic, the current heartfelt language of the immigrant congregation. The communal spirit of experiencing these enthusiastic Arabic prayers is richer than any which have ever been recited in any English service, ever. Traditional English/ American hymns are military battle calls, ever changing fads, or sensuous love calls. Go somewhere else to suffer these.
I have been praying in Coptic Churches for about 25 years and I have usually been able to find a Liturgy book with comprehendible English so that I can reasonably follow the Liturgy. I think an admirable job has been done in improving the English/ Coptic/ Arabic Liturgy Books. The U.S. Coptic Church has also steadily improved the 3 language service books for Midnight Psalmody and Holy Week. Many classic Coptic commentaries, contemplations , synaxarions, agpeyas, Saints’ lives, etc. have also been improved from earlier versions with primative English translations. I don’t think any other immigrant church in the history of the world has done such a commendable job of making its basic spiritual literature available in the new host language. The Russian Orthodox have also done a commendable, comprehensive job, but they have been in the U.S, for over 200 years (and still strive to pray and hymn primarily in Old Slavonic). None of the other U.S. Orthodox jurisdictions who have been here for about 100 years, or more, have accomplished close to this Coptic standard. It is tedious, confusing work to meaningfully join into the Coptic/ Ethiopean (and Russian Orthodox) liturgical life. The usual reward is a humble, cultural social hour, or more (recall the 5 loaves and 2 fish?). At a new parish, it takes a while to become mutually comfortable - but you shouldn’t also be hungry. For many of these reasons, not many visiting Americans stay long, or return soon. They usually think only of themselves. Why suffer to join heretical monophysites, and eat strange tasting beans, with your fingers? But, it is pure Irish (or Sahedi) to some of us.
I may have missed someone, but I haven’t noted that we have any practicing, professional level language and literature experts in the Egyptian Arabic (in which the last approx. 1000 years of the thought and life of our church has been recorded. Aren’t these Coptic arabic writings of our “recent” fathers our key to recovering understanding of their/ our Coptic/ Greek founding fathers?); and in academic/ theological English, for our present and future translations and edification. For example, I can’t find that any of Anba Gregorios’ highly admired theological works are precisely translated to English. Understandably, the English in many translations are unintentionally (but some seem to be intentional) inaccurate.
Couldn’t the hangover from the demonic ingredients of the current “modern” Copt’s partying ****tail: 50% ridicule of Coptic Egyptian (arabic/ parental) “culture” and 50% experiment with rebellious feminism/ freudianism; be the poisoning of the institution of God established patriarchal Coptic families, which have supported our Coptic Orthodox Church since its establishment by the Holy Family’s visit and by St. Mark’s martyrdom? Orthodox should carefully nourish our fathers’ ways, not risk addiction to Satan’s newest temptations.
In order to give you a taste of the eventual reality of the idealized self-pleasing, modern “orthodox” churches that some hypothesize that the Western Coptic Church can become, I would like to share some of the soap-operatic recent episodes in life of the two modern American Orthodox “beauty queens.” The OCA and the Antiochian (blah, blah, blah) Archdiocese. The sad pathos of their remarkably similar recent struggles are objectively chronicled at http://www.ocanews.org/news.html.
The admirable editor of ocanews.org included a philosophical ode that describes the frustration of cowardly unproven challenged statements like those of Cephas.
Ok, this is just ridiculous. You need to stop writing these kinds of messages. You just wrote a 5 page insult. I hope you feel accomplished.
Thank you for taking the time to address a few of my misunderstandings about the history and traditions of the Coptic Church. In my experience most of the substantive discussions (oral and written ) that I am aware of, in the churches that I have attended, are in Arabic. I understand that the level of Arabic used by these speakers varies. Many friends who have tried to translate for me have apologized because they couldn’t understand the speakers’ meanings clearly enough. Another problem is that many who have tried to translate for me are not familiar with the proper comparable English theological terms. Rather than complain, or give up, like Zoxsasi’s friends have apparently done, I have found sufficient Coptic spiritual nourishment from the crumbs I can gather, here and there. When I grope around, like here, I’m satisfied; and gain some level of understanding. I don’t become frustrated, but seemingly frustrate others. Is that what you call Sahedi?
As I have tried to mention, I am limited because it is nearly impossible for me to study many Coptic recent issues because the author, naturally writes in Arabic. I can personally understand this process, because, as you have noted, I am even challenged to write skillfully in English. I have mentioned that I have been trying for several years to obtain some of Anba Gregorios’ Arabic writings on Orthodox marriage and family theology so that I can have some friend translate them. I’ve been told some myths, that Anba Gregorios wouldn’t permit some, possibly inaccurate, translations to English. These types of puzzles led me to speculate that rich Coptic Church literature, in Arabic, (Anba Gregorios, for example) will never be translated to precise English. I’ve been told that there are significant word meanings differences in the various Arabic speaking cultures. I had guessed, wrongly, that important Coptic Church writers and thinkers had began using Arabic within about 500 years after Islam came to Egypt. I was not thinking about early liturgical records, but about works more like commentaries, contemplations, etc., such as I suspect that Anba Gregorios, or Arabic speaking desert fathers produced. I don’t know where my copy of Iris el Masri’s history is. Probably given away to an inquirer. In summary, it doesn’t seem that these speculative discussions of the end of Coptic Arabic in any modern, secular Western milieu is rationally beneficial from any point of view.
I have had several friends who quickly lost interest in the Coptic Church, for explained and unexplained reasons. Others maintained interest through baptism and then drifted off for various reasons, including the monophysite slander. I gathered that Zoxsasi and others were impatient for the church to abandon use of Arabic and traditional hymns and to immediately adapt the host Western language and host “catchy” protestant music. This rush to invent a popular, abbreviated, “evangelical-like” quasi-Orthodox “knockoff” has been the “vision” and practice of the OCA and Antiochian Churches since, at least, about 1983, when I began looking for a comfortable alternative to my seemingly apostacized/ modernized U.S. Catholic Church. I was blessed to be too lazy and too unorthodox to start-off my pilgrimage in the available traditional Oriental Orthodox Churches, ROCOR, Greek Old Calendar, etc. So, I spent about 10 years attending, primarily the “ecumenical” OCA, Antiochian and Greek Churches. This experience confirmed to me that the objective accounts, posted on ocanews, of the seemingly “soap-operatic” recent episodes in the life of the OCA and Antiochian Churches are similar to the natural apostacies that should be expected from innovated, intellectualized, experimental ecumenism. Do you deny that similar “soap-operatic” episodes have occured in the similarly ecumenical experiments in the apostate Western Catholic and Protestant Churches? The apostasy rates seem pretty consistent. It seems that evasive systemic symptoms of demonic spiritual poverty are evident. I pray that the Coptic Church leadership (if fully informed, wouldn’t the membership object?) will correct its seemingly secretive experimental adventures into the feminism and freudianism branches of the demonic ecumenism heresy, which it now seems to seek to share with the liberal, ecumenical OCA, Antiochian and Greek Orthodox Churches. I have followed ocanews for several years and for these reasons, I admire the seeming balanced, intelligent, objective depth and honesty that is consistently demonstrated by the editor and frustrated sincere contributors. Growing Coptic feminism/ freudianism seems to have a realistic potential to foment episodes of related demonic “modern” embarrasments in the Coptic Church. Witness the apparent freudian marketing genius of Priest B.S. And geomike?
On July 1, 2011, (Re: Marital problems and not healthy enviroment---Priest help needed
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2011, 01:53:32 PM »)Cephas posted unauthenticated, factual personal and theological misrepresentations that I have repeatedly challenged and asked him to prove or withdraw. I think that Eric Voegelin’s maxim concerning dishonest debate is relevant, and hopefully remedial.
I have tried to rationally respond in appreciation for your seeming corrections; and in consideration for my real concerns, especially for the, always relevant, increasing numbers of pastorally neglected Coptic children and father victims of encouraged Coptic feminist shrews/ divorcers.. Do you have any further critical facts, events, or witnesses, etc.? I’ll try to respond. These polemical seeming “rants” are obviously an uncomfortable personal dilemma. I’d rather be camping with my 2nd generation divorce traumatized grandchildren; and leave you in peace to abstractly “see and dream no evil.”