Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Dhevte Pandees
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone who ordered the Rites and Hymns of the Glorification Hymns for CIA has different pronunciation of the words for Dhevte Pandees or the same pronunciation as the recording for HCOC. I'm reviewing this hymn with HCOC and they changed a lot of the words and I don't see any text that supports their change. That is why I'm wondering if CIA's recording has the same pronunciation of the words as HCOC's! Thanks a lot and take care.
I was wondering if anyone who ordered the Rites and Hymns of the Glorification Hymns for CIA has different pronunciation of the words for Dhevte Pandees or the same pronunciation as the recording for HCOC. I'm reviewing this hymn with HCOC and they changed a lot of the words and I don't see any text that supports their change. That is why I'm wondering if CIA's recording has the same pronunciation of the words as HCOC's! Thanks a lot and take care.
Comments
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone who ordered the Rites and Hymns of the Glorification Hymns for CIA has different pronunciation of the words for Dhevte Pandees or the same pronunciation as the recording for HCOC. I'm reviewing this hymn with HCOC and they changed a lot of the words and I don't see any text that supports their change. That is why I'm wondering if CIA's recording has the same pronunciation of the words as HCOC's! Thanks a lot and take care.
Its a good question, but let's face it, its a Greek hymn and I doubt anyone Coptic will pronounce it correctly.
Your best bet is to ask someone Greek Orthodox what the pronounciation is.
The fact that you write it as Dhevte shows you have some appreciation for Greek grammar. As far as I know its Dthevte (as in Dthoxsa Patri) - but as a Greek person, they ought to know.
There is no correct or non-correct pronunciation of Greek, Coptic, or any other language. There is only standard and non-standard. I won't open this debate again.
Kmeka, HCOC included the new words as found in Deir al Surian/Muharrak texts. This has nothing to do with pronunciation.
No one in the Greek Church will know anything about the meaning or the pronunciation of this or any other Greek hymn in the Coptic Church, especially those found in the glorification rite.
There is no correct or non-correct pronunciation of Greek, Coptic, or any other language. There is only standard and non-standard. I won't open this debate again.
Kmeka, HCOC included the new words as found in Deir al Surian/Muharrak texts. This has nothing to do with pronunciation.
According to the rituals preserved in the Coptic manuscripts dating before 1857, the Bohairic dialect is pronounced differently than it is today.
The reason for the change is that a person by the name Aryan Moftah thought that since the Coptic alphabet are Greek letters then they must have the same sound values as their Greek counterparts.
The result was an utter destruction to the Bohairic dialect. An example of this change is the letter titta (currently theeta) where he changed the sound "T" to "th". Of course Copts cannot pronounce this letter till today and instead of saying "etowab" (Holy) they currently say "esowab".
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone who ordered the Rites and Hymns of the Glorification Hymns for CIA has different pronunciation of the words for Dhevte Pandees or the same pronunciation as the recording for HCOC. I'm reviewing this hymn with HCOC and they changed a lot of the words and I don't see any text that supports their change. That is why I'm wondering if CIA's recording has the same pronunciation of the words as HCOC's! Thanks a lot and take care.
The reason you find differences is that Albeir is mistakenly trying to say all the Greek hymns with the current Greek pronunciation with total disregard to the how an actual Copt would pronounce Greek.
The reason we see these things happening is due to lack of appreciation to Coptic language and its history.
Oujai qen `P[C
No one in the Greek Church will know anything about the meaning or the pronunciation of this or any other Greek hymn in the Coptic Church, especially those found in the glorification rite.
There is no correct or non-correct pronunciation of Greek, Coptic, or any other language. There is only standard and non-standard. I won't open this debate again.
Kmeka, HCOC included the new words as found in Deir al Surian/Muharrak texts. This has nothing to do with pronunciation.
Remnkemi,
Its a greek hymn. The words are in Greek.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12118.msg143324#msg143324 date=1313681907]
No one in the Greek Church will know anything about the meaning or the pronunciation
That's absolute ignorance! Of course they know the meaning. I was chatting with a few Greek Orthodox Christians about Asomento - they sing this also in their Church!!
Stop this nonsense! There are Greek hymns in the Coptic Church!
Look, during the liturgy there are certain parts that are in Greek. This is understandable by the Greeks! If you want to know the correct way to pronounce it, ASK SOMEONE GREEK!!!
Its so obvious. We thank you O Lord is what?? "EFKHARISTOUMEN KYRIE"
What is THank You in Greek?? Its EFKHARISTOU!! You want to pronounce it correctly, then ask someone Greek!! ITS THEIR LANGUAGE!!!!
I hope you are not missing the point. Just because the Greek pronounce Greek words one way, doesn't mean we as Copts have to pronounce it the same way. The Greek hymns (or Greek loan words in the Coptic language more generally) were integrated for the purpose of the Coptic tongue, hence pronunciation in Coptic. I hope you get the point. If not I can explain more clearly...
Oujai qen `P[C
Zoxsasi,
I hope you are not missing the point. Just because the Greek pronounce Greek words one way, doesn't mean we as Copts have to pronounce it the same way. The Greek hymns (or Greek loan words in the Coptic language more generally) were integrated for the purpose of the Coptic tongue, hence pronunciation in Coptic. I hope you get the point. If not I can explain more clearly...
Oujai qen `P[C
Hi Opha..
No, I get the point. But this is pure idiotic behavior. You are not fluent in Coptic (at least most Copts are not), and yet they pronounce Greek (a language in which they do not understand either) so incorrectly that someone Greek cannot understand it!!
Its the GREEK language!! There is a way of pronouncing it.
I meet many tourists in Paris. They ask me how should they pronounce certain words. I tell them. If they come here and pronounce everything as its written, NO ONE would understand them. They just sound stupid.
What about Egyptians who speak English with an Arabic accent. I can hardly understand them. There is a way of pronouncing English. I can't just go off and substitute the "TH" with a "Z" and change the "P" to a "B" and say "Well, they still speak English, but the pronunciation is different". They are pronouncing it INCORRECTLY!! OK!!
As I said before, Greeks attend our Church and it makes my blood boil that they tell me "Oh.. Was that a Greek hymn the deacons have just sung? I didn't understand a word of it".
Its idiotic! Its ignorant and foolish.
There maybe 2 different styles/dialects of pronouncing Coptic, but Greek is not the language of Egypt - nor is it anyone's mother tongue. If there is a hymn in our Church in Greek, why not go and ask a Greek person how it should be pronounced!!!???
A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973)[90] that estimated the origin of English words as follows:
Influences in English vocabulary
Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English; does not include Germanic words coming from the Germanic element in French, Latin or other Romance languages): 25%
Greek: 5.32%
No etymology given: 4.03%
Derived from proper names: 3.28%
All other languages: less than 1%
A survey by Joseph M. Williams in Origins of the English Language of 10,000 words taken from several thousand business letters gave this set of statistics:[91]
French (langue d'oïl): 41%
"Native" English: 33%
Latin: 15%
Old Norse: 2%
Dutch: 1%
Other: 10%
And this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin
You will see that the words although originally French have changed and been adapted to be English. That is exactly the same thing I am talking about.
Lastly, and not for the first time, I am asking that you don't use any insulting words in your posts, especially with me please. I get so sensitive about it, and I don't like it. Thanks Zoxsasi
Oujai qen `P[C
While you are on the subject of foreign pronunciations, I would like to remind you that native English-speakers do not defer to the French in their pronunciation of any of the many, many French loan words that exist in English. Nor do Spanish-speakers consult with the Arabs before picking cotton (al qutun > algodon), buying a pumpkin (qerabat > calabaza), or eating an artichoke (al-harshuf > alcachofa). Do these people likewise sound stupid? Maybe a native speaker of French or Arabic wouldn't understand them, either.
THe answer to Kerrelos question is simple--Albair changed much of the words in the glorification hymns. that goes for sena etcho and maybe other ones too. so it's not really a pronunciation difference rather than different words.
George, i Am not sure who told that he took that text from the muharraq monastery......i was told that specific coptic teachers in egypt edited the text to make sense. this is simila to what he did with o-oniatk enthod o dimas.
I don't know why you are so upset. Why don't you let any body express themselves and hot topics in their heads the way they wish? If you are too troubled, don't join in. Please notice that the original question was actually about pronunciation and differences in wording. Some chose to focus on one aspect while you focussed on the latter.
And by the way, some people in Egypt already changed the text of some hymns? Well done... very very well done. We know better than our predecessors, that is for sure...
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear Mina,
I don't know why you are so upset. Why don't you let any body express themselves and hot topics in their heads the way they wish? If you are too troubled, don't join in.
hot topics--make your own post with that "hot topic" you would like to speak about. but no.....everyone is so scared from directly telling someone else "you are wrong and i am right" in a post.......so we begin to just so what we want keda between the lines. like i said: to just give ourselves satisfaction.
Please notice that the original question was actually about pronunciation and differences in wording. Some chose to focus on one aspect while you focussed on the latter.
yet none went back to the books or even the recordings he is speaking about before answering.....how can you answer a question in english if it was given to you in french?! YOU CAN'T!!!! you have to go and translate the question and than answer.
And by the way, some people in Egypt already changed the text of some hymns? Well done... very very well done. We know better than our predecessors, that is for sure...
Oujai qen `P[C
i didn't say i agree....i simply said what had happened.
This started with the change Aryan introduced and the outrageous rules he put for the Coptic language. His disciples think that they know better than the fathers. The result is that these days anyone can come up with an excuse of saying a particular word a certain way and justifying his way through endless debates. We hear the argument well the Greek hymns should be pronounced like Greek. My question would be: "Who gave you the right to change the pronunciation?" Are you better than those who came before you? Were they ignorant and you are the all-knowing?
Unfortunately, we have reached a point where there is no humility in receiving the hymns the way they were delivered, the pronunciation the way they were delivered, the tune the way they were delivered, the rituals the way they were delivered. We want to leave our mark by changing what we have received.
The cure is quite simple: Submit to the fathers through the heritage they delivered through humbleness and through the spirit of discipleship.
Remnkemi,
Its a greek hymn. The words are in Greek.
Devte pantec ilayi is not Byzantine Greek. If you ask a Greek person, he will probably not know that Deute pantec ilayi is the Egyptian Greek version of the standard Koine/Modern Greek of Δεῦτε πάντες οἱ λαοί. Byzantine Greek has stress and accents and diphthongs, not found in Egyptian Greek. Just for fun, show the Coptic text to a Greek person and see what he says. Acwmen is standard Koine Greek, minus stresses. Devte pantes is not. Not even close. Nor is many of the other glorification hymns. Let me clarify. There are some standard Greek hymns shared by the Coptic and Greek Orthodox Churches. They are verbatim texts with identical spelling. The Greek Orthodox version has stresses, the Coptic doesn't. For example, Evlogimenos. Then there are hymns that are found in the Greek Church but has varying degrees of differences in the Coptic text. For example, Evshees. Depending on the variation of the Greek text, the average Greek Christian will not recognize the text. Then there are Greek hymns, not found in the Greek Church, that are so deviated from standard Greek and/or Coptic, that the text needs revision to be comprehended. Devte Pantes is. HCOC's book used a revised text. It's not their language. The variations, even in the Liturgy of St Basil, make it Coptic (or more accurately Egyptian Greek).
It is like Arabic, English, Spanish, French or any other language that is spoken by different groups in different regions of the world. The spoken words would be difficult to understand but the written form would not. No. Greek is Greek no matter where it was used. I have never heard of Coptic Greek, Antiochian Greek, Roman Greek, ....
The general principle holds, imikhail. No doubt you've heard of Lebanese Arabic, Moroccan Arabic, Hijazi Arabic, etc. While the specific divergences of any given variety vary (I don't know if any form of Greek deviates from the standard as much as Cypriot Maronite Arabic does from MSA, for instance), there are linguistically compelling reasons to treat them as unique varieties to the extent that such uniqueness (in phonology, vocabulary, etc.) can be substantiated by concrete examples, such as you might find in hymns for example.
What you mentioned holds in the spoken Arabic. However, any Arabic speaker will be able to understand any Arabic in the written form regardless of the origin.
The same holds true with Greek.
I know how you meant it, Remnkemi, but I would be careful with the phrasing of that last sentence. Coptic is not simply Greek with some variations in pronunciation, but is its own language of Afroasiatic stock
Thank you Dzheremi. What I meant to say is that Greek texts that are found in the Coptic Church carry different phonological and grammatical characteristics cannot be classified as Greek. Period. Coptic is heavily influenced by Greek. But even the Greek that is used in Coptic is different than standard Greek. Thereby, making the Greek texts Egyptian Greek/Coptic - not Byzantine/standard Greek.
Greek hymns like agios, omonogenis, the liturgy of St Mark, the responses in St Basil liturgy are pure Greek and do not carry grammatical characteristics that prevent it from being classified as Greek.
ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!!!!
THe reason why Greek is in the Coptic Liturgy is for one simple reason:
Greek, at the time, used to be the standard - it was like what English is to today. Everyone understood it. The Coptic Church put Greek parts in the liturgy at the essential, or most CRUCIAL parts of the liturgy to ensure that EVERYONE UNDERSTOOD IT and WHAT WAS BEING SAID!!!
Therefore, it was NO VARIATION or "Egyptian Greek" - it was the Greek the Greeks used!!!
Why did you take my last post so personally? I never meant it this way. Firstly, no one would tell the other person "you are wrong I am right", for many reasons, not least because of mutual respect and sensible "democratic" dialogue. Secondly, many people have answered part of the original question, not the whole, as I said before. Doesn't make it any less important, even if we go on forever about the same topic that keeps springing up in many people's heads (or at least mine, although this time round I didn't instigate it) every time a post like this is made. Thirdly, I was being sarcastic about people who change hymns texts, and even Synexarium. In no way I was referring to you, and I am glad your point agrees with mine.
Dear Zoxsasi,
I encourage you to read a little bit more of Greek usage in the Coptic Church. It is not intelligible to Greeks, and the grammatical structures is not outright "Orthodox" Greek.
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear Zoxsasi,
I encourage you to read a little bit more of Greek usage in the Coptic Church. It is not intelligible to Greeks, and the grammatical structures is not outright "Orthodox" Greek.
Oujai qen `P[C
Oh? Anba Antonious Morcos explained this to us. Greek was used in the Coptic Church to stress the most important parts of the liturgy so that EVERYONE could understand them at the time. It WAS intelligible to Greeks!! IT WAS FOR THAT PURPOSE!!
The greek used then is not the same Greek today.. OF COURSE, but its purpose in the liturgy was just that: so that the most essential, most sacred parts were to be understood by everyone. It was a way to officiate it.
The writing of Greek words in Coptic may not be intelligble to them, NOR some words, but that's because Greek has evolved. Modern Greek is not the same as the Greek used before. It has changed - but that applies to Greeks and Copts (at the time when Greek was used in the liturgy).
I'm sure, and I've done this before - Take ANY Greek part in the Coptic liturgy, PRONOUNCE IT CORRECTLY, and any Greek person will understsand it. THey will not be able to read the Coptic Transliteration of the Greek, but will indeed understand most of it if its pronounced correctly.
* The part in the liturgy where we say we worship your Holy Body - Its MODERN GREEK!!
* Efkharistoumen Keriye - ITS MODERN GREEK!!
* The reading before the gospel that abouna says - its in Greek, MODERN GREEK!!
* The hymn Agios Otheos - ITS PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE TO ANY GREEK!!!!!!
Its the same greek that greeks speak with.
I do not know Zefte Pantees, and I haven't asked a Greek person to see whether they understand it, but then my poor pronounciation of Greek will surely be a problem in conveying to them the words.
Oujai qen `P[C
Christianity in Egypt started in Alexandria, the world's capital for education. Greek was the first language of its people. We cannot say that the Greek in Alexandria could not be understood by any other Greek in another region.
Following, the liturgical Greek that survived till today CANNOT be called Coptic Greek or a variation or anything else. IT IS GREEK.
All the Greek hymns that were developed in the last 100 years like "dawda bantees", "O kirios" are gibberish Greek that are neither modern nor koine nor anything else. Their authors put words together that the hymns ended up not to mean much. Thus they cannot be used linguistically to say that somehow the Coptic Church has different Greek than the Greek people.
OK, what I meant to say "not" all Greek parts are intelligible to Greeks. I can see you contradicting yourself by saying "the Greek used then is not the same Greek today", and then you say "take any Greek part, pronounced correctly and it makes sense". I have seen Greek people myself who told me that they don't understand their own liturgical Greek language (whether it is Koine or Byzantine or whatever else I don't know) let alone Greek in the Coptic church. Modern Greek hymns like y par;enoc - ton cina etc in my opinion are understandable, but not older ones.
Oujai qen `P[C
We are saying the same thing. Older Greek hymns may NOT be understandable to Greeks because Greek as a language has evolved. But that does not mean that we speak some kind of Coptic Greek, as if its a language in its own right.
Greek was a common language in the Coptic Church. Greece evolved, got modernized, joined the EU, made some nice pop stars, yet the Coptic Church is still living with the Greek of the past. It hasn't changed.
Of course there are some hymns that are going to be hard for Greeks to understand, but i thought i explained this - NOT ALL OF THEM. There are many many Coptic hymns, responses and songs that are in Greek that are PERFECTLY well for Greeks to understand. The only ones who do not understand them is Coptic Orthodox Christians.
Asomentou apparently contains some old Greek language, yet they still sing this hymn in the Greek Church (With the same melody as us by the way!!).
I don't know Zefte Pantees.. I cannot say. But I've asked Greeks.
Like everyone has been saying, we don't really understand Agios Ictin, but neither do Greeks.. it doesn't make sense for them - which is fine, because it doesn't even make perfect sense for us either, so everyone's happy. However, we sing it anyway!!!!
Does not matter what version of Greek is. It is a Greek hymn.
By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is. That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek. Here is an article on Pontic Greek vs. Ancient Greek. Here is an article on Ancient Greek dialects. Here is an article on dialects of Modern Greek. Here is an article on Italian Greek. Here is an article on Albanian Greek. And I can go on.
Oujai qen `P[C