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TASBEHA?!
A few weeks ago I was asked to lead Tasbeha because there was a lack of deacons....however I felt that I was not capable of doing so because I really didn't know what I was doing.
Can anyone explain to me in what order is everything said? I'm a little confused, because sometimes I see deacons skipping certain things...
Thank you in advance +
Can anyone explain to me in what order is everything said? I'm a little confused, because sometimes I see deacons skipping certain things...
Thank you in advance +
Comments
Hope it helps.
Your username leads me to believe you are a female. . .if that is the case, may I ask who asked you to lead the tasbeha?
Yes, I am a female, and it was one of the younger deacons who wanted to do Tasbeha but didn't know what he was doing either....(it was in the middle of the week, not Saturday nights)...am i not allowed to do so?
Thank you Andrew! That article is actually really helpful. I cant read some of the titles of the chants, though, so do I need to download Coptic fonts or something of the sort?
Yeah, download the fonts here.
I don't think you are allowed to lead tasbeha. You may of course be able to suggest to deacons what to do, and what to say, and give them the right order if they don't know, but all in all it's better than they don't depend on you to do that every time. So you should tell them to do their homework, and provide a suggestion only once required, but not as a general rule. I hope you get what I mean, and don't get offended. We pride our Coptic church on being ancient and unchanging (which to me are the true meanings of Orthodoxy), but who does nowadays anyway?
Oujai qen `P[C
My apologies, I'm not very tech-y
As for leading...... mostly it is the oldest deacons there or a cantor. most of the time there is no "leader" but rather someone who may just give a head start to a chorus to sing where you'd just have 2 choruses, bahari and ebli.
I downloaded the fonts from under "Download for Windows" and refreshed the site but it still looks the same to me...is there anything else I need to do?
My apologies, I'm not very tech-y
I have the same problem, even though I have the fonts. So there's nothing you can do. Maybe you can copy the words, and copy them in a Word-document and then apply the CS Avva Shenouda font.
And thank you, minatasgeel!
I downloaded the fonts from under "Download for Windows" and refreshed the site but it still looks the same to me...is there anything else I need to do?
My apologies, I'm not very tech-y
No worries at all.
Did you install the fonts after downloading them? By running the .exe file you downloaded?
You need to restart your computer sometimes for changes to be applied, like the installation of a new font.
I've led Liturgies... someones gotta do it if there aren't any well-learned Deacons!
The answer to your question is no.. no woman is allowed to lead tasbeha in the presence of any man..
Oujai
Dear Gabriella,
The answer to your question is no.. no woman is allowed to lead tasbeha in the presence of any man..
Oujai
there needs to be specific characteristics in that man if he will lead over a nun who know much more than him in alhan.....
Oujai
I'm not aware of those Mina and of course I don't condone that anybody can just walk in and assume that role...
Oujai
i just stress the difference between a deacon (atleast an psaltos) and a regular layman male. the distinction here is between clergy and laymen rather than male and female.
Oujai
Are there clergy females in the Coptic church?
Oujai
Nope. but not all men are considered clergy.
Oujai
That's not what I meant.. bottom line is ladies aren't to give instructions to men, but to other ladies and children, and may contribute if they see something not completely correct.. that's my opinion..
Oujai
I guess things are different in my church.
I don't know your church and how things work there but this is how I believe things should be..
Oujai
I respect and agree with your opinion, but I think things are handled differently according to their circumstances.
I'll PM you with more detail.
In the Syriac Orthodox church, St. Ephrem the Syrian would rehearse all-female choirs to chant the liturgical responses. And they do so until this very day in their churches. They usually wear the mandil on their heads and sometimes have a special blue/white cloak. The same practice is applied in our other sister church the Armenian Apostolic church. I have a CD of a live liturgy and in it, there were female soloists as well as part of a mixed-choir chanting throughout the liturgy.
Also, the Greek Orthodox and Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian Orthodox churches all have fantastic top-notch choirs throughout the world: some are all-male, some are all-female, and most are mixed. All these choirs rehearse and lead the divine liturgical services. Does this in any way mean that they are not Orthodox because females assist in leading (from the chorus, not within the altar)? I don't think so.
In the past, we had a Coptic choir in our parish and because we were often the only ones who would actually come to tasbeha and other services, abouna would allow us to all sing as one chorale and let me tell you, we sounded great singing together. I'm not suggesting we make a ruckus and try to change how our church is structured today, but we should note that this point in particular is not something which comes from our universal Holy Tradition. It's a small 't' tradition which developed specifically in Egypt, perhaps due to the monastic influence initially and the Islamic influence later on?
NOpe, it doesn't have to do with monastic influence or islamic one later.. I cannot comment on other Orthodox churches but this is how it has always been in the Coptic church for ages.. maybe not so modern, so old-fashioned, and maybe even demeaning (only in the eyes of some, but definitely not me), but these are the rites that we respect..
Dear TITL,
THAnks I'll reply to your pm..
Oujai
That is not a reason for changing the tradition used in Egypt, but it is often necessary to point out that the tradition of the Church of Alexandria is not the same as an absolute Orthodox Tradition. It is also the case that many things which are a 'tradition' at the moment are very recent indeed.
Therefore, I do not think that reflection on the history of Tradition is something which is disrespectful. I have concerns about females in a choir, but these concerns are almost all to do with the lack of discipline and respect which those of us who are already males show to the service of the Church. I would not wish females to be sucked into such a way of thinking about service. If the diaconate and choirs were properly ordered in every place then there would perhaps be a different situation.
I don't think female-only choirs are part of any rites in the Coptic Orthodox church FULL STOP. I don't think this has anything to do with the way things evolved, or has been for generations. I agree with you no book says specifically "male deacons", or "male congregation", but to say a verse with men, and a verse with women, to me doesn't sound right in our church. If there is only one deacon present and some female congregation, it is inevitable that verses will be sung by female only, but not as a "distinct" choir. If women know more, they can contribute, but not sing the hymn on their own (remember the other thread about abouna teaching some girls to sing eulogimenoc, and deacons didn't know it!!!). Anyway, bottom line is two deacons, mean one for northern (bahari) verse, and one for southern (qebli) however else the number of women present in the service is.
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear Mina,
I don't think female-only choirs are part of any rites in the Coptic Orthodox church FULL STOP. I don't think this has anything to do with the way things evolved, or has been for generations. I agree with you no book says specifically "male deacons", or "male congregation", but to say a verse with men, and a verse with women, to me doesn't sound right in our church. If there is only one deacon present and some female congregation, it is inevitable that verses will be sung by female only, but not as a "distinct" choir. If women know more, they can contribute, but not sing the hymn on their own (remember the other thread about abouna teaching some girls to sing eulogimenoc, and deacons didn't know it!!!). Anyway, bottom line is two deacons, mean one for northern (bahari) verse, and one for southern (qebli) however else the number of women present in the service is.
Oujai qen `P[C
I am not saying have a full female chorus (I like to always makes a distinction between 'choir' and 'chorus')....even thoo in monasteries in tasbeha, there are ONLY women praise. wait, only 2 weeks ago when i was in the texas monastery--we had to to 2 tasbehas because the main church was being worked on. do to the huge number of females, they were told to do tasbeha in a separate church. I stayed with them and a couple of other guys to help ya3ny. and it was awesome. in fact we did have 2 choruses , not really males and females because there was much more females. But it was a great tasbeha. the girls were singing by themselves. oh, i forgot to include that Abouna was there :-)
Examples ba2a:
It's good you remembered about that post of evlogimenos el-kebira, but you forgot something very important--the meat of the entire post. The priest there teaches alhan to deacons and girls alike. he gave the choice to deacons to learn el-hoos el-kebir (i might be mistaken, it might be another rare hymn) and the girls to learn evlogimenos. girls choose that and the deacons choose that. which is good, because the hoos needs to be read by a clergy man as said in books. so when it came time to say evlogimanos, abouna took the mic and went next to the girls and sang it. now, i don't see what's the problem.
Ibrahim Ayad once prayed good friday with the pope At El-Amir Tadrous convent (maybe abu-sefin's). Tamav Erini was there. The pope told Ibrahim Ayad to always ask here to sing some alhan.
I have a liturgy of a friend praying with Ibrahim ayad and Anba Daniel in el-amir tadrous convent where they are responding to him in the hetenyat and praxis response and even the aspasmos.
If you are the only girl that knows anything than lead the tasbeha. I just want to mention two things:
1) Do not become cocky and show off but aid in the spirit of love. Remember that you are praying and not showcasing yourself!
2) Do not be wanting to say everything yourself but assist those around you so they can follow along. For example start the hymn and then allow them to say with you.
There is nothing wrong with a girls doing tasbeha. Nuns do it in their convent, in fact they lead the liturgy. I remember reading some interviews with some cantors and deacons where the church used to have female cantors. In fact, one of the church's hymns (apetjeek evol) was taught to Muallem Mikhaeel by a female cantor in el Minya according to Ragheb Moftah.