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Glorifications during Distribution, is this correct???

hany58hany58
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hi Everyone,

I have a question regarding the rites of the mass,

During distribution of the Holy Mysteries, sometimes my church says a Glorification (i.e. Shashf Ensob) + Madeeha for a saint.

According to what I’ve been taught in the past, the Glorifications should not be said during the distribution as the church allocated particular hymns for the distribution time: I.e. Pi-Oik, Asomen, Ef emepsha ghar, Anok Nem, etc.

What is your opinion about this? Does anyone have a recording of someone like HG Bishop Rafaeel about this?

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Comments

  • Amoussa01
    I believe most bishops are against it, which makes sense. Think about it. If Christ and St. Mary appeared to you, will you turn and start saying Shere ne Maria? It makes no sense. Therefore, it is more proper for you to focus on Christ since He is present during the distribution on the altar. At the same time, I am confused with regards to certain distribution hymns such as Anok nim and Efemepsha ghar, which are very glorification esque...
  • christ_rosechrist_rose
    No the glorification in the distribution is fine. Many hymns that are said in distribution during the other seasons of the church have nothing to do with the communion. The glorification that is done praises both God himself and saint mary or any other saints. Plus the glorification is always said after psalm 150 anyway. So regardless the Lord is first. Lets not over complicate things
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Christ_rose,
    strictly speaking it's a wrong practice.. the full focus has to be on Christ.. in the case of efemebsha ghar that's the exception, not the general rule of thumb, and through praising st. Mary we praise God.. but it's known to be a distribution hymn rather than a glorification hymn.. exactly as not saying aikodi for instance when you run out of other hymns
    oujai
  • christ_rosechrist_rose
    there are many hymns in the church tradition that can be said both in the liturgy and in the distribution. some of them being genethlion, enthoten ze, niromi etc. Aikoti or aikodi lol is a psali. in general we dont randomly chose a psali to just sing. But the communion melodies even sometimes have nothing to do with Christ himself. Plus its not only efemepsha ghar that is the exception. And even in pioik we glorify saint mary. in Khenefran the whole thing is about the trinity except the last part. in Shash ensop the whole first part is about the Lord and his incarnation. Agios istin, is about the trinity and so is kcmaroout. its not as serious as were making it. Also, the tawzi3 should be something that everyone can sing along with. Thats the point. If a tamgeed for the saints is something that can be sung along with then so be it. Again the beauty of our hymns is that not one just focuses on the saints but relates it back to our Lord. Even Sena etsho, and Rashi ne, and Fai peplimen, and shere theotoke all go back to our Lord. If we ran out of melodies and hymns for the specific occasion there is nothing wrong with the tamgeed. and If we say psalm 150 and continue on to the tamgeed there should be no issue
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    i think we need to stop considering what "makes sense" to sing or not whenever we want. if i use the same argument you guys are using, i can say omonogenis every day in liturgy as it is one of the greatest hymns about our Lord that put the His entire Economy in very simple yet deep words.....some eastern orthodox church say it every liturgy, don't they?!
    It's not about what is for Christ and others...you guys can see that from the many madayeh that are set for communion but most of the time turn to be about the occasion AND communion. it's about a set of hymns that is put aside for specific occasions--specific times during liturgy and tasbeha or other services in church. "it is not proper" (mish mazboot as HH used to say all the time, rather than 'wrong' or 'haram') to take those hymns or prayers out of their set order. do you guys remember the huge argument i had with the guy who wanted to say praxis response Shere ne maria instead of shaare efnouti in case the deacons didn't know it or the verses of cymbals instead of kerie leison. same thing really.

    after that being said, I am not against saying glorification hymns during communion. lol, the entire write is already corrupt. so saying some of the hymns depending on the occasion after atleast basic communion hymns, is 'acceptable'....not proper nor recommended but "allowable" (apparently this is an english word).
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Christ_rose,
    Thanks... that is exactly my point. In many Communion hymns you will find that they include a verse about St. Mary (if not even more), one for the patron saint, and one for the bishop/metropolitan, and the pope. When I pointed out to efemebsha ghar being an exception, I was merely referring to the substance of the hymn, where most of it addresses Virgin Mary. That is not to be confused with glorification hymns though.
    Dear Mina,
    Because the rite has been wrecked, our duty is to rebuild it, not say what could "allowable" despite being unacceptable. If people restrict themselves singing some songs, we will be worthy of being called "orthodox". But if priests and bishops don't really mind anything, just for the sake of people joining along as Christ_rose pointed out, then "our God is an awesome god", "qama haqqan"... etc etc are all OK... sad but true
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • hany58hany58
    If possible, does anyone have a recording of a certain bishop who talked about this issue? At the moment I'm having big arguments with other deacons in my church about it. They want to see a solid evidence that Glorifications should not be part of distribution
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    Albair Mikhail of Copticheritage.org (HCOC) has a great sermon about this which you can listen to here (it's in Arabic though):  http://www.copticheritage.org/sermons/14_the_glorification_service. ; Specifically 11:10 is when he starts talking about doing tamgeed during communion.  I recommend you listen to the whole thing though because he goes into detail about the history of the tamgeed and how it was originally practiced in the Church.

    He's not a bishop but he sure knows his stuff.  And he has connections to bishops so I would take his points seriously.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Our church rite is to pray with the melodies that revolve around the gospel readings.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear imikhail,
    Are you referring to the Arabic melodies?
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • mabsootamabsoota
    dear brothers and sisters,
    could anyone give me a list (send p.m. if you like) of all of the hymns / songs that are appropriate for Holy Communion?
    eg. particularly like 'from all nations', is this mazboot?
    i would like to compile a list of communion hymns so that i can learn them (the easy ones), and especially those that are already translated into english.

    also please tell me your sources for this. i have asked friends in the past about this, but they have had difficulty answering this question.
    sorry if it's a hard question!

    may God bless u all as we celebrate the feast of the virgin (i know it was yesterday, but today we celebrate with milk!) and may God give peace to all those who are suffering in egypt, east africa and other places.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13649.msg159235#msg159235 date=1345734130]
    Our church rite is to pray with the melodies that revolve around the gospel readings.


    There are melodies for each Sunday's gospel?!
  • SWMSANMG
    What if I ask one bishop and he says it's perfectly fine and another says it is completely forbidden? Now what? I assure you within five seconds I can identify several bishops who will say it is perfectly fine and several that will say not a chance. Are the consequences of saying glorification during Communion really dire? What will happen? Will God be displeased? Will He punish us? I know bishops who start glorification themselves outside with the deacons right after Psalm 150.

    What is the big deal anyways? Psalm 150 is chanted in nearly every Liturgy anyways and that is all addressed to God. Let's not be absolute and rigid about things like this.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=13649.msg159240#msg159240 date=1345741541]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13649.msg159235#msg159235 date=1345734130]
    Our church rite is to pray with the melodies that revolve around the gospel readings.


    There are melodies for each Sunday's gospel?!


    Yes. Unfortunately not all of the annual ones are translated into English.

    For each Sunday gospel we have a gospel response, a canon, and a melody.
  • imikhailimikhail
    The time of communion should be dedicated to remembering our salvation through the sacrifice of which we are partaking.

    During this time we should be medititating only on Christ and what He had done for our salvation.

    Let me ask this question: would it be ok to do glorification to a saint during the holy 50 days during communion? If not, why not?

  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13649.msg159236#msg159236 date=1345734558]
    Dear imikhail,
    Are you referring to the Arabic melodies?
    Oujai qen `P[C


    Yes, al madae7
  • ophadeceophadece
    I actually disagree imikhail.. I don't think those Arabic melodies are part of the original rites. Just that we lost teaching about what should be said after be'aish for instance doesn't mean they are fine to be said..
    oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13649.msg159247#msg159247 date=1345746494]
    I actually disagree imikhail.. I don't think those Arabic melodies are part of the original rites. Just that we lost teaching about what should be said after be'aish for instance doesn't mean they are fine to be said..
    oujai


    Nor is pi wik.

    We do have the authentic hymns to be prayed, but we do not know how they were prayed. Yet, they all revolve around communion.

    So, I'd rather follow the spirit of the rite, which is focusing on the communion, rather than shift the whole rite to glorification.
  • SWMSANMG
    iMikhail,

    It appears like you have some interesting history and information on Piowik. Can you please share with us the history of this hymn and how you know it is not part of the "original" rite?

    Also, what is the definition of "original rite"?

    Thank you.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Ok imikhail, I'll try to force myself to respect those melodies however badly written they are..
    thanks anyway
    PS: did you just say "pi"?
    oujai
  • christ_rosechrist_rose
    can someone explain how exactly, and in detail, how the rite is corrupt.
  • markmarcosmarkmarcos
    In Bolivia the Bolivians who converted to orthodoxy say songs with guitars drums etc. in the presence of Anba Yousef of Bolivia during Communion.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=SWMSANMG link=topic=13649.msg159249#msg159249 date=1345747999]
    iMikhail,

    It appears like you have some interesting history and information on Piowik. Can you please share with us the history of the hymns and how you know it is not part of the "original" rite?

    Also, what is the definition of "original rite"?

    Thank you.


    Dear SWMSANMG

    Tarteeb Al Bay3aa is the reference on which all the rites and the hymns are mentioned including the timing they should be prayed. However, it does not have the whole text of all the hymns.

    It was compiled by Pope Ghabrial ibn trek in the 16th century with the attempt to unify the rites throughout Egypt.

    Looking through this manuscript, we can find the hymns that should be prayed during communion.
  • mark.naguib7
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13649.msg159255#msg159255 date=1345755366]
    Looking through this manuscript, we can find the hymns that should be prayed during communion.


    If the Arabic Mediahs and Pi wik are not in the original rite, then what is?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13649.msg159243#msg159243 date=1345745611]
    [quote author=Andrew link=topic=13649.msg159240#msg159240 date=1345741541]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13649.msg159235#msg159235 date=1345734130]
    Our church rite is to pray with the melodies that revolve around the gospel readings.


    There are melodies for each Sunday's gospel?!


    Yes. Unfortunately not all of the annual ones are translated into English.

    For each Sunday gospel we have a gospel response, a canon, and a melody.

    I'd like to know where are those "melodies" for every sunday of the year.

    [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13649.msg159252#msg159252 date=1345752901]
    can someone explain how exactly, and in detail, how the rite is corrupt.

    There are really two separate rite.....the one of the Taqdees and one for tamgeed. I think Albair's book makes it very clear or maybe one of his lessons on any tamgeed hymn on their site.
  • baempibaempi
    Psalm 150 says "Praise God in all His saints" so of course it is ok.

    The glorification glorifies God by celebrating his saints. If one thinks that the glorification is in any way not oriented to glorifying God then he must step back and reanalyze what he is doing or saying in church.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=baempi link=topic=13649.msg159260#msg159260 date=1345763046]
    Psalm 150 says "Praise God in all His saints" so of course it is ok.

    The glorification glorifies God by celebrating his saints. If one thinks that the glorification is in any way not oriented to glorifying God then he must step back and reanalyze what he is doing or saying in church.

    BUT it's not about what makes sense.....it's about the rite that is put for us to to follow. many of the communion hymn DO INCLUDE saints sometimes--we don't forget them.
  • baempibaempi
    Mina I think you misunderstood me. It is ok to do glorification in communion. Those who think not don't understand the purpose of glorification. It is not to glorify a saint. It is to glorify God in His saints.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=baempi link=topic=13649.msg159263#msg159263 date=1345765704]
    Those who think not don't understand the purpose of glorification. It is not to glorify a saint. It is to glorify God in His saints.


    There is a proper way to do everything in the Church. We cannot something is ok and justify it through personal interpretation. This is what the rituals are all about; to organize the worship.

    It is not appropriate to honor saints during communion. This is the rite of the church, what we have received and what is preserved in the manuscripts.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13649.msg159245#msg159245 date=1345746040]
    The time of communion should be dedicated to remembering our salvation through the sacrifice of which we are partaking.

    During this time we should be medititating only on Christ and what He had done for our salvation.

    Let me ask this question: would it be ok to do glorification to a saint during the holy 50 days during communion? If not, why not?


    I'm confused, imikhail.

    You said that melodies revolving around the gospel of the day should be prayed during the distribution, and you also said that the hymns prayed during the distribution should focus solely on Christ and salvation through the sacrifice we are partaking...

    Also, can you provide an example of the hymns you believe more appropriate?

    Thank you.
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