I'm sorry MikeforJesus, I don't really want to say too much about protestants, but the protestants do not have the Holy Spirit in their church even though they would like to think it does. They adhere to what is in the bible and seperated themselves by the loss of the true sacrements. God is righteous with all mankind, but it doesn't mean we are all saved. Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) was drowning one day and he asked God to save him, and immediately God saved him. He then went to his brothers house and his brother showed him the koran and Cat Stevens converted to Islam, but all that shows is God is righteous, it doesn't mean Cat Stevens will be saved in the last day. Our church can say we have been with Jesus Christ since the Apostles and Saint Mark coming to Eygpt.
[quote author=ShareTheLord link=topic=10538.msg160473#msg160473 date=1350183732] Please pray for me, your brother in the Lord. 'Love covers a multitude of sins' - 1 Peter 4:8
I'm sorry MikeforJesus, I don't really want to say too much about protestants, but the protestants do not have the Holy Spirit in their church even though they would like to think it does. They adhere to what is in the bible and seperated themselves by the loss of the true sacrements. God is righteous with all mankind, but it doesn't mean we are all saved. Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) was drowning one day and he asked God to save him, and immediately God saved him. He then went to his brothers house and his brother showed him the koran and Cat Stevens converted to Islam, but all that shows is God is righteous, it doesn't mean Cat Stevens will be saved in the last day. Our church can say we have been with Jesus Christ since the Apostles and Saint Mark coming to Eygpt.
You are not God to judge. But because Jesus loves you just worry about having a relationship with God. God and I am not asking you to leave the church. Love all and leave judgement to God and be as orthodox as you want. Make sure the doctrines you accept do not reflect what is in your heart unless you admit you accept those doctrines have a place in your heart
And do not have cruelty in your heart towards others for pope shenouda says it is not one of God's attributes.
Did Jesus say Judge not that you be not judged for nothing?
I am of the faith of some of the ancient fathers who were considered orthodox so I consider myself orthodox
You are an apostolic church but you are alone in your judgements to others. Are Eastern Orthodox heretics? but they do not teach to judge heterodox
I'm not judging them Mike but would like them to return. I love them but does praising God give them salvation? The meaning of protestant means protest. It is something against and not in agreement with the church Jesus started. I'm sorry Mike but not just anyone can say they are the true church. The Holy Spirit is in them, but are they in true communion with the Holy Spirit? What would you like to see happen Mike? I know you don't see them as harmful in anyway. I'm sorry if I upset you at all Mike and I pray or their return to the true faith. My wanting their return is love and not judgement, and it is not saying they are bad and we are good. God's peace be to all.
My dear brother God Bless you Thankyou for caring about my feelings though I have responsibility for myself Still I must not make so many topics and replies Good Bye
[quote author=Severian link=topic=10538.msg160451#msg160451 date=1350131836] I would be honored to. Though, I am afraid I might get too zealous and I might end up making them less receptive of the truth. I will help out as much as I can, though I recommend contacting Fr. Peter on OC.net if you able to (he no longer posts here). He would know what to do.
Thanks for both the suggestion and the offer to help. God bless your service. PM me and we'll be in touch.
I appreciate your zeal, and of course I sympathize completely, but it is important that we allow Our Lord to prune the vine (through the labor of His unworthy servants) with love. This is, after all, an act of love, carried out for the love of Our God, His Church, and His children the youth.
Friends, we are in times where our Orthodoxy is being attacked including by priests who have been ordained as Coptic priests. Some of them marginalize the sacraments, downplay the importance of the Liturgy, and introduce concepts that are blatantly anti-Orthodox. Some of them were stopped from service by H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Clerical Council and seem to have re-emerged again. Be vigilant and pray.
[quote author=SWMSANMG link=topic=10538.msg160509#msg160509 date=1350401512] Friends, we are in times where our Orthodoxy is being attacked including by priests who have been ordained as Coptic priests. Some of them marginalize the sacraments, downplay the importance of the Liturgy, and introduce concepts that are blatantly anti-Orthodox. Some of them were stopped from service by H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Clerical Council and seem to have re-emerged again. Be vigilant and pray.
Would you please indicate which suspended priests or servants have re-emerged ? Thank you in advance.
If you Google search for "the suspended priest" in Arabic, you will find links regarding this. Some of these priests are back. Whether there was an official reinstatement or not, I would not know.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160452#msg160452 date=1350134159] Yes I am. But I have one teacher who alone commands all the attention which is the LORD.
Brother, are you saying that the Lord alone is your teacher and that He teaches you directly? As St. Paul tells us, you have many teachers in Christ. Thank God that He has given us many teachers, the Apostolic Fathers of the Church, and that we do not readily accept anything offered to us with the label of "Christian" whether it agrees with the teaching of the Church or not, but first use wisdom and discernment to compare it it to the Faith delivered once and forever for all the saints.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160452#msg160452 date=1350134159] I guess I am not a traditional orthodox but I believe I am following the law which was written in our hearts in the new covenant
To be Orthodox is by definition to be traditional, to cling to the Holy Tradition of our Fathers.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160454#msg160454 date=1350134971] The issue is people are making up the sounds are offensive but they just want an excuse to kick people out of the church. Many songs written by protestants are not heretic.
Respectfully, brother, this is not the case. No one is interested in "kicking people out of the church". It is not fair to say this or to assign these motives to those who love the purity of Christian Faith and practice. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Those who love the Church are desirous that more will be brought into the fullness of Orthodoxy and not a shallow means of placating one's emotions.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160454#msg160454 date=1350134971] Let noone despise your youth but be an example to the believers in faith in purity in love etc
Indeed, it is our duty to be an example to the youth in Faith, love and purity. Upholding Orthodoxy is an example of doing exactly this.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661] Many of these songs are on tasbeha
If that's true, it is part of the problem we need to evaluate and address.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661] "If it is possible as much as depends with you live in peace with all men"
Living in peace with all men does not mean embracing their errors, but rather leading them to the fullness of the truth.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661] If the song contains no error why would you not sing it? Is it because you judge them? Judge nothing before the time. When the LORD comes He will reveal the counsels of all men
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160459#msg160459 date=1350137833] Maybe you would like to tell me about a dream you saw where some protestant was burning in hell? Wait you can't show me that dream. I must believe you!
It is wrong to insist that those who insist on Orthodoxy in Faith, doctrine, and practice are judging men or their souls. They are not. No matter how often this straw man argument is repeated, it will not stick. Please, my beloved brother, I know you can see the difference. To say that a teaching or action is wrong is not to condemn the soul of its author. We do not know if Arius or Nestorius repented in some quiet corner before they reposed. It is possible that we will find them in Paradise, along with many pious people who died in heresy because of ignorance and not willful disobedience, but that does not mean that we can condone, or worse yet adopt, their doctrines and practices.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661] I have become all things to all men. To those under the law I was as those under the law. To those without law I became without law yet not under law towards Christ
I am so glad you brought this verse up my dear brother. St. Paul utilized his knowledge of Judaism to win the Jews to the true Faith. He used his knowledge of Greek philsophy and religion to do the same with the Greeks. But he did not permit the Greek to incorporate elements of their former tradition, such as the ecstatic fits of the Oracle of Delphi, into Orthodox Christian practice. We must be effective witnesses to all to win them to the fullness of the Faith, but our efforts would be in vain if we compromised the Faith itself in doing so.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661] Obey custom to whom custom is due
There is a difference between the customs of men and the Holy Tradition of the Church. We do not require people to become Egyptian and follow Egyptian customs in order to become Orthodox, but they must follow the teachings and practices of Orthodoxy.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661] Beloved test the spirits whether they are of God.
Amen and amen. This is what we must do and are discussing here.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160457#msg160457 date=1350136873] No he would have not used words written by Arius. Because Arius was a rebel and a liar. He was a willful sinner
Arius was not rejected because he was a "willful sinner" or a "liar". This is true of all men. It was his teachings that were rejected because they were in error and contradicted those of the Orthodox Church. The same is true of Protestantism.
Eutyches, by all accounts, was a pious and charitable monk, but his teachings contradicted Orthodoxy and as such were deemed heretical. This is not a condemnation of the man, but of his doctrines. The same is true of the Protestant theology conveyed in many of their of their publications, songs, etc., that have no place in Orthodox Faith or practice.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160459#msg160459 date=1350137833] Does God need you to fight for the faith for Him?
The Lord needs no one. Did He need St. Cyril, St. Athanasius, St. Dioscoros, or St. Severus to fight for the faith for Him? But does that invalidate their efforts to witness for Orthodoxy within the context of their times? Does this mean that we should not strive for the Faith and should just float along with whatever the currents of this world bring along like dead wood on a river?
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160461#msg160461 date=1350138017] there is a possibility instead of following what God says we invent our own rules and traditions so that we can neglect God's. "Tithe mint.. neglecting justice mercy and faith"
It is true we must distinguish between what is a cultural tradition of Egypt and what is a Holy Tradition of the Church and that we must always conduct ourselves in a loving and merciful manner, but there is no contradiction at all between this and insisting on Orthodox Faith and practice within the Church. In fact, the one is a direct outgrowth of the other. If we are conscious of what is God's Tradition, the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy in Faith and practice, we will insist upon this to the exclusion of non-Orthodox ideas and the practices that grow from them.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160461#msg160461 date=1350138017] If you were blind you would have no sin
Amen. But if we know better and do not do better, if we deliberately turn a blind eye to deviations from the Faith and allow others to be led astray in the interest of being "politically correct", we are sinning in doing so.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160463#msg160463 date=1350140057] if you have trouble understanding what I am saying how can you be a servant of God and think you have all the answers
This is hardly a charitable attitude to take with your brothers. Instead of assuming a lack of clarity on your own part you assume that your brother can't understand you because he is not a servant of God?
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160463#msg160463 date=1350140057] You failed to understand that no angel no demon no things present is able to seperate us from the love of God through Christ Jesus
No, but using our free will we can separate ourselves from Him. At any rate, we are never separated from His love in that He never stops loving us, but this doesn't mean He condones or accepts all of our actions, even up to our sins and heresies. [quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160464#msg160464 date=1350140677] 2 Timothy 2:24-26 New King James Version (NKJV) 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will
Amen. And this is precisely what is being advocated.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160477#msg160477 date=1350193959] You are not God to judge. But because Jesus loves you just worry about having a relationship with God. God and I am not asking you to leave the church. Love all and leave judgement to God and be as orthodox as you want.
Did Jesus say Judge not that you be not judged for nothing?
Not judging others does not mean that we have to accept any and all teachings and practices in the Church whether they are Orthodox or not. Refraining from judging our brothers does not mean we are unable to make any judgement whatsoever concerning theology and practice.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160477#msg160477 date=1350193959] I am of the faith of some of the ancient fathers who were considered orthodox so I consider myself orthodox
The Faith of the Ancient Fathers is not the faith professed by the Protestants. Again, this is not a judgement of individuals but a statement of fact concerning theology.
By the way, for the sake of clarity, saying that you "consider yourself orthodox" because you believe yourself to share the same faith as "some of" the ancient fathers is somewhat imprecise. For the sake of clarity, are you a communicant of the Coptic Orthodox Church or any other canonical Orthodox Church?
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160477#msg160477 date=1350193959] You are an apostolic church but you are alone in your judgements to others. Are Eastern Orthodox heretics? but they do not teach to judge heterodox
They do not teach to judge the heterodox as individuals, but they do judge their teachings and practices:
My brother, please don’t judge our hearts and motives, which you cannot and do not know, even as you accuse us of judging others. Pray for us, and if we are in error on some theological point, correct us in love. We are not seeking to condemn anyone or judge them. We are only seeking to protect the youth from indoctrination with teachings and practices alien to the Church at a young and impressionable age and to help servants who have erred back onto the right path in love.
This isn’t a matter of “assimilation” or “cultural expression”. It isn’t a matter of one “style” vs. another. It has everything to do with Orthodox worship and practice as influenced by Orthodox teaching vs. that which is alien to our phronima.
"According to the Orthodox Faith, the teachings and traditions one upholds and believes in will necessarily influence and inform one's spiritual orientation and they way one worships..." Harry Boosalis
[quote author=SWMSANMG link=topic=10538.msg160509#msg160509 date=1350401512] Friends, we are in times where our Orthodoxy is being attacked including by priests who have been ordained as Coptic priests. Some of them marginalize the sacraments, downplay the importance of the Liturgy, and introduce concepts that are blatantly anti-Orthodox. Some of them were stopped from service by H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Clerical Council and seem to have re-emerged again. Be vigilant and pray.
This is exceptionally sad and disturbing news. If you could pm me some info about this in English, I’d appreciate it.
I was having a conversation with a friend regarding this and he asked me a question that I did not know how to respond to: Can we sing western style songs with up-beat music written by Orthodox Christians in church, if they are theologically sound?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160517#msg160517 date=1350423969] I was having a conversation with a friend regarding this and he asked me a question that I did not know how to respond to: Can we sing western style songs with up-beat music written by Orthodox Christians in church, if they are theologically sound? I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, so long as it is not done during the Liturgy.
For example, I really like this song about St. Justin Martyr:
If an Orthodox Christian wrote a song like this and started singing it in a non-Liturgical setting at Church, I would have no problem.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=10538.msg160520#msg160520 date=1350424735] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160517#msg160517 date=1350423969] I was having a conversation with a friend regarding this and he asked me a question that I did not know how to respond to: Can we sing western style songs with up-beat music written by Orthodox Christians in church, if they are theologically sound? I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, so long as it is not done during the Liturgy.
For example, I really like this song about St. Justin Martyr:
If an Orthodox Christian wrote a song like this and started singing it in a non-Liturgical setting at Church, I would have no problem.
This is all just my opinion, though.
So, if Here I am to worship was written by an Orthodox it would be fine, but it is not because a protestant wrote it? O.o
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160530#msg160530 date=1350429446] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160528#msg160528 date=1350429053] [quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160526#msg160526 date=1350428869] Here I am to Worship would not have been written by a true Orthodox.
Why?
That was just an example to get my point across. You can insert any other protestant song instead of Here I am to Worship.
btw you're thinking about it the wrong way around The issue is not the author but the content Thus a Protestant writer might conceivably write an Orthodox song (not likely, though) If an Orthodox writer wrote a song with Protestant theology and attitudes it would not be acceptable
So if the content is Orthodox then we can sing it in the church, it does not matter who wrote it? even if it is Arius?
You seem to disagree with Severian and I highly respect both of you guys. I am stuck! [quote author=Severian link=topic=10538.msg160455#msg160455 date=1350135978] ^It defies the teachings of the Church to use songs written by heretics and schismatics. Do you think St. Athanasius would have approved using hymns written by Arius (even if they did not contain questionable content)?
Just for own knowledge, what is wrong with the wording in Here I am to Worship?
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160532#msg160532 date=1350430309] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160531#msg160531 date=1350429791] [quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160530#msg160530 date=1350429446] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160528#msg160528 date=1350429053] [quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160526#msg160526 date=1350428869] Here I am to Worship would not have been written by a true Orthodox.
Why?
That was just an example to get my point across. You can insert any other protestant song instead of Here I am to Worship.
btw you're thinking about it the wrong way around The issue is not the author but the content Thus a Protestant writer might conceivably write an Orthodox song (not likely, though) If an Orthodox writer wrote a song with Protestant theology and attitudes it would not be acceptable
So if the content is Orthodox then we can sing it in the church, it does not matter who wrote it? even if it is Arius?
You seem to disagree with Severian and I highly respect both of you guys. I am stuck! [quote author=Severian link=topic=10538.msg160455#msg160455 date=1350135978] ^It defies the teachings of the Church to use songs written by heretics and schismatics. Do you think St. Athanasius would have approved using hymns written by Arius (even if they did not contain questionable content)?
Just for own knowledge, what is wrong with the wording in Here I am to Worship?
Firstly, what is wrong with Here I am to Worship (in my humble analysis) can be found in reply 318.
Secondly, I agree with Severian in a sense - the ideal is that we only use Orthodox hymns. But since there are so few of these written in English, it may be an appropriate economia to use thoroughly checked songs from other sources. Particularly if they originate from, say, traditional Catholics (check this out: http://www.stpeterslist.com/7456/5-english-hymns-every-catholic-should-know/ ; - some of them contain wrong catholic doctrines, but #5 seems fine) or high church Arminian anglicans. I think Jonathan, whom I consider an esteemed poster, would agree with me (at least to some extent)
Third, I think Severian would agree with me, that the order of priority is the content then the source. When you were trying to agree with Severian before, you were completely negating the issue of the content, and only focussing on the source. That being said, if it's from a v good Orthodox source (St Severus, Athanasius) we don't need to bother checking the content. Unless the translation, and particularly the versification is done by Protestants, in which case certain aspects may be unduly emphasised, and certain aspects omitted.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160532#msg160532 date=1350430309] Firstly, what is wrong with Here I am to Worship (in my humble analysis) can be found in reply 318.
Secondly, I agree with Severian in a sense - the ideal is that we only use Orthodox hymns. But since there are so few of these written in English, it may be an appropriate economia to use thoroughly checked songs from other sources. Particularly if they originate from, say, traditional Catholics (check this out: http://www.stpeterslist.com/7456/5-english-hymns-every-catholic-should-know/ ; - some of them contain wrong catholic doctrines, but #5 seems fine) or high church Arminian anglicans. I think Jonathan, whom I consider an esteemed poster, would agree with me (at least to some extent)
Third, I think Severian would agree with me, that the order of priority is the content then the source. When you were trying to agree with Severian before, you were completely negating the issue of the content, and only focussing on the source. That being said, if it's from a v good Orthodox source (St Severus, Athanasius) we don't need to bother checking the content. Unless the translation, and particularly the versification is done by Protestants, in which case certain aspects may be unduly emphasised, and certain aspects omitted. eg be thou my vision
- qawe I agree with what you are saying. This post is reflective of my position on this subject. Thank you both for the discussion.
1.) It is wise to resist any inclination to "contemporize" or make "cool" and "hip" that which is sacred. By doing so, you also give it an "expiration date", a time when it will no longer be "cool" and "cutting edge" and will be replaced by something else, unlike the timeless hymns of the Church.
In addition to what Severian and qawe have offered, it might also be valuable to go back to the beginning of this discussion and re-read some of the posts made by Fr. Peter and Ioannes on this subject on the first few pages.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128082#msg128082 date=1295983358] It is the case that many modern songs represent a defective theology or spirituality, but the melodies are also often inappropriate to periods of Orthodox worship. They generally intend to inspire emotion rather than reflection.I would certainly ban all Protestant songs and tunes and the use of instruments in any corporate worship. The place of modern Orthodox songs (and I mean entirely Orthodox in content) needs to be carefully considered. The danger, it seems to me, is of producing trite and superficial words, and using emotional tunes. I am not against serious and theologically rich modern songs with appropriate and sober tunes.
If someone were to read any of St Severus' hymns, translated into English prose, they still retain their immense power, and even as prose they contain a wonderful poetry. They are serious songs for mature Christians. I think we perhaps need songs that are as accurate and meaningful. It is a mistake to simply copy Evangelical Protestant practice. Indeed there are traditions which seem to me to be much more appropriate for non-liturgical Orthodox use, such as some of the Taize songs.
Father Peter
If we're going to okay the use of "Christian” pop boy band songs in our corporate worship, how about "Christian” hip hop? "Christian” mimes and "praise dancers"? Where is the line drawn? The Roman Catholic Church, after Vatican II, wanted to "contemporize" everything in order to keep the youth in the pews. They started with "guitar masses" and ended up by this:
The solution is not to seek after shallow means of satisfying the soul, but to rediscover the depths of our Orthodox spirituality.
2.) Please consider the opinions of individuals we are blessed to have in our Church who, like Fr. Peter and Ioannes, are both: a.) former Protestants b.) scholars
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128093#msg128093 date=1295985680] Non-Orthodox songs are not necessarily Christian at all. That is the problem.
Those of us that have converted are able to testify to our own experiences. We know what we are talking about.
Simply because a song mentions Jesus doesn't mean that it is Christian. It may be the worst type of heresy, or it might be damaging to a proper Christian spirituality.
The danger, it seems to me…is the creation of a sentimental emotionalism which is not the same as spirituality at all.
We don't need Orthodox pop stars. And we don't need Orthodox pop songs.
Just please, we should not ape modern Evangelical songs and performance values.
Fr. Peter here eloquently describes the danger of not only trite and potentially heretical "Christian" pop lyrics, but also of melodies and musical forms which are not conducive to genuine Orthodox spirituality.
Now, Ioannes addresses the issue of considering the source:
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128096#msg128096 date=1295987003] Did you know Arius wrote hymns, Nestorious also wrote hymns. I am not sure that any of Arius' actually survived, but if you read some of these Non-Orthodoxy hymns, they seem to be the same, but should we sing them in church as well? No. The major problem with this is that we are telling people that all these songs written by various protestant denominations, typically charismatics, are alright. If the songs are alright then everything else must be alright, this is the logic people,especially kids, will use. Our church is in no need of any improvement, ESPECIALLY in the area of hymnology. The Holy Psalmody is the best, why would we need some shallow superficial songs by people who havent the first clue about Orthodox Christology and Theology. And yes there is no need for any instruments in church, the cymbals and triangle are to keep timing only, not to sound good and fun. That is not their purpose. Fr. Peter is correct in saying that those of us who have converted know what we are talking about, and people like Fr. Peter should be listened to when saying, we shouldnt do this.
He is absolutely correct. Other individuals, who are close to me in the world outside of cyberspace, articulate similar concerns. One, after hearing a Protestant song right off the radio sung in an Orthodox youth gathering, pointed out to me where this song was making reference to Charismatic theology, and the Orthodox kids singing it didn't even realize it. I'd like to think the servant leading them was likewise ignorant and not intentionally misleading them. She said to me, "Do you think I left the church of my birth and became Orthodox for this? If I believed this was true I could've stayed where I was!" She was upset and so was I.
In Fr. Peter's next post he articulates something very similar to what she went on to say after that:
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128102#msg128102 date=1295988664] One of the main issues I have with modern Protestant worship songs is that they tend to exclude people. We have discussed this in my own Church since most of us are converts.
In a modern charismatic church, generally speaking, if you are feeling happy and everything is going fine then lots of music and singing and dancing is great. There are lots of good emotions and feelings. It is a bit like a party, or taking part in an exciting musical event. (I am sure that there is an intention to worship God but I do believe that the music and emotions get in the way of this and unwittingly become an aim and an end in themselves.) To much Protestant worship is like being at a concert and singing along to very familiar and popular songs. I KNOW, I HAVE BEEN THERE MYSELF. It is very exciting to be with hundreds of other people, to be singing loudly together, to have an electric band encouraging things along. But the trouble with all of this, as many of us who have converted can testify, is that if you are struggling with sin, if you are facing many problems, if you are experiencing the Dark Night of the Soul, then there is usually nothing in such worship for you. Indeed I have been in places where the person who is not clapping and not waving their hands in the air is pointed out by the one leading worship as if they are not making the grade.
Orthodox worship is different. The emotions are engaged of course, but our worship is not emotional. There is space both for the one who is joyful and the one who is weeping. And the hymns and prayers are serious, leading our hearts and minds to heaven, rather than only stirring the emotions. No-one is excluded. And in proper liturgy there is a quiet space for the still, small voice of God to be heard.We do not need to make our liturgies, or our prayers exciting or emotional. This is like the difference between the romance of an engagement and the lasting, solid love of a marriage. The excitement will not help a couple through the difficult and dark days. Nor will an emotional worship support and strengthen us in the trials we must face each day.
Let us flee from such worship. Even without meaning to, it leads us away from Orthodoxy.
Amen to what my friend said and amen to Fr. Peter. We need to appreciate and heed the words of the former Protestants in our midst.
Check out what H.G. Bishop David says in this vid. It doesn't make sense for Orthodox servants to imitate Protestants forms of worship when so many Protestants are becoming Orthodox precisely because they recognize the fullness of the Faith therein and the shallowness of their former confessions.
Sometimes, those born into the Church don't get this or appreciate it, and ironically, they're the ones who want Protestant songs in the youth meetings, unwisely ignoring the warnings of their fellow Orthodox who were once Protestant and know of what they speak.
Remember St. Paul’s word to the Romans (12:2):
“Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”
As Orthodox Christians, we're not supposed to emulate the style of this world. We have to reorient ourselves and let God transform us, not try to transform Him to suit the fashions of this time. Don’t try to worship God on your terms based on what you might think (right now) is fun and trendy and what works for you. That’s not Orthodoxy. That’s not Christianity. That’s the world, and we have no part in it.
Orthodoxy can be translated into English in two ways.
The first part, ortho, means right or correct.
The second part – doxa – can be translated either as faith or as worship.
So Orthodoxy means “correct Faith” (or doctrine) AND correct praise (or worship). So we don’t worship God on our terms – with trendy and worldly means that aren’t part of the Holy Tradition His Apostles relayed to us – we worship Him on His terms.
Not all sacrifices, all offerings, are acceptable to God. Remember the story of Cain and Abel? Why was Cain jealous? Why did Cain slay his brother? Because he offered God something on his own terms, not on God’s, and God did not accept his sacrifice.
We have to worship God on His own terms – in the ways handed down to us by our theological ancestors – not because they constitute some cultural tradition – some tradition of men – because if they did, we could change them to suit the fashions of this world – but they DON’T – because they’re not the traditions of men, they are the “capital T” Holy Tradition ordained by God.
This is great, but where is the line that separates Orthodox music style and emotional superficial one? Eventually our church in the "land of the immigration" is going to become more westernized. We will start writing our own western style song and start singing them. So, where is the line that separates the western-style Orthodox songs and the superficial protestant ones?
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are been built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
If we are fellow citizens with the saints, then we have the tradition of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through them. The start of the tradition was the chief cornerstone and the foundation of the apostles and prophets.
The problem that the protestants have is that the diversion of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit from the lives of the saints and the apostles to the bible is that they have linked their own interpretations to uphold their faith. This is like having people build different buildings. Whatever is part of that building, whether songs of praise or a weaking of sacraments is not part of the building we started with that had been planned.
Ephesians 1:11-12
11 In Him we have also obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the council of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
It was the apostles who first trusted in Him and that they were predestined for inheritance according to the council of His will. We are the ones to praise His glory because from the first to now the Holy spirit's inspiration has being in the building of the one and Holy apostolic orthodox church.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160545#msg160545 date=1350443497] This is great, but where is the line that separates Orthodox music style and emotional superficial one? Eventually our church in the "land of the immigration" is going to become more westernized. We will start writing our own western style song and start singing them. So, where is the line that separates the western-style Orthodox songs and the superficial protestant ones?
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160548#msg160548 date=1350447191] That is the million-dollar question for which there is no clear answer. I don't think it can be answered by tasbeha.org
But it already has been answered in the real world outside of cyberspace. Maybe we haven't caught on in the Egyptian community yet, but it has been answered even within our own Communion in the British Orthodox Church and in Coptic Orthodox Churches in the US Virgin Islands and Bermuda where more than 95% of the congregation is non-Egyptian. They relate to Orthodoxy in a way that is not necessarily Egyptian but is fully Orthodox without any Protestant pop influence at all. There's a difference between "Western" and "pop" or even "Western" and "Protestant". Again, I would reference Fr. Peter Farrington's posts or dialogue with him directly. Here is a man who is a part of an authentically Western Orthodox tradition, whose very Church's mission is to make Orthodox Christianity relevant in a Western context. He has already answered this question in the post of his I cited earlier. Why should we neglect this resource in answering this question? How do the British Orthodox do it? How does the OCA do it? They transmit Orthodoxy in a Western context and there is nothing shallow, Protestant, or pop about it.
Comments
I'm sorry MikeforJesus, I don't really want to say too much about protestants, but the protestants do not have the Holy Spirit in their church even though they would like to think it does. They adhere to what is in the bible and seperated themselves by the loss of the true sacrements. God is righteous with all mankind, but it doesn't mean we are all saved.
Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) was drowning one day and he asked God to save him, and immediately God saved him. He then went to his brothers house and his brother showed him the koran and Cat Stevens converted to Islam, but all that shows is God is righteous, it doesn't mean Cat Stevens will be saved in the last day.
Our church can say we have been with Jesus Christ since the Apostles and Saint Mark coming to Eygpt.
Please pray for me, your brother in the Lord. 'Love covers a multitude of sins' - 1 Peter 4:8
May the Lord have mercy.
May the LORD have mercy on us all
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=10538.msg160475#msg160475 date=1350188093]
I'm sorry MikeforJesus, I don't really want to say too much about protestants, but the protestants do not have the Holy Spirit in their church even though they would like to think it does. They adhere to what is in the bible and seperated themselves by the loss of the true sacrements. God is righteous with all mankind, but it doesn't mean we are all saved.
Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) was drowning one day and he asked God to save him, and immediately God saved him. He then went to his brothers house and his brother showed him the koran and Cat Stevens converted to Islam, but all that shows is God is righteous, it doesn't mean Cat Stevens will be saved in the last day.
Our church can say we have been with Jesus Christ since the Apostles and Saint Mark coming to Eygpt.
You are not God to judge. But because Jesus loves you just worry about having a relationship with God. God and I am not asking you to leave the church.
Love all and leave judgement to God and be as orthodox as you want.
Make sure the doctrines you accept do not reflect what is in your heart unless you admit you accept those doctrines have a place in your heart
And do not have cruelty in your heart
towards others for pope shenouda says it is not one of God's attributes.
Did Jesus say Judge not that you be not judged for nothing?
I am of the faith of some of the ancient fathers who were considered orthodox so I consider myself orthodox
You are an apostolic church but you are alone in your judgements to others. Are Eastern Orthodox heretics?
but they do not teach to judge heterodox
I'm not judging them Mike but would like them to return. I love them but does praising God give them salvation? The meaning of protestant means protest. It is something against and not in agreement with the church Jesus started. I'm sorry Mike but not just anyone can say they are the true church. The Holy Spirit is in them, but are they in true communion with the Holy Spirit?
What would you like to see happen Mike? I know you don't see them as harmful in anyway.
I'm sorry if I upset you at all Mike and I pray or their return to the true faith. My wanting their return is love and not judgement, and it is not saying they are bad and we are good.
God's peace be to all.
Thankyou for caring about my feelings though I have responsibility for myself
Still I must not make so many topics and replies
Good Bye
I would be honored to. Though, I am afraid I might get too zealous and I might end up making them less receptive of the truth. I will help out as much as I can, though I recommend contacting Fr. Peter on OC.net if you able to (he no longer posts here). He would know what to do.
Thanks for both the suggestion and the offer to help. God bless your service. PM me and we'll be in touch.
I appreciate your zeal, and of course I sympathize completely, but it is important that we allow Our Lord to prune the vine (through the labor of His unworthy servants) with love. This is, after all, an act of love, carried out for the love of Our God, His Church, and His children the youth.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160504#msg160504 date=1350386635]
http://www.chantcafe.com/2011/06/why-praise-and-worship-music-is-praise.html
This might help.
Thank you. I'll check it out.
Friends, we are in times where our Orthodoxy is being attacked including by priests who have been ordained as Coptic priests. Some of them marginalize the sacraments, downplay the importance of the Liturgy, and introduce concepts that are blatantly anti-Orthodox. Some of them were stopped from service by H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Clerical Council and seem to have re-emerged again. Be vigilant and pray.
Would you please indicate which suspended priests or servants have re-emerged ? Thank you in advance.
Yes I am. But I have one teacher who alone commands all the attention which is the LORD.
Brother, are you saying that the Lord alone is your teacher and that He teaches you directly? As St. Paul tells us, you have many teachers in Christ. Thank God that He has given us many teachers, the Apostolic Fathers of the Church, and that we do not readily accept anything offered to us with the label of "Christian" whether it agrees with the teaching of the Church or not, but first use wisdom and discernment to compare it it to the Faith delivered once and forever for all the saints.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160452#msg160452 date=1350134159]
I guess I am not a traditional orthodox but I believe I am following the law which was written in our hearts in the new covenant
To be Orthodox is by definition to be traditional, to cling to the Holy Tradition of our Fathers.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160454#msg160454 date=1350134971]
The issue is people are making up the sounds are offensive but they just want an excuse to kick people out of the church. Many songs written by protestants are not heretic.
Respectfully, brother, this is not the case. No one is interested in "kicking people out of the church". It is not fair to say this or to assign these motives to those who love the purity of Christian Faith and practice. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Those who love the Church are desirous that more will be brought into the fullness of Orthodoxy and not a shallow means of placating one's emotions.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160454#msg160454 date=1350134971]
Let noone despise your youth but be an example to the believers in faith in purity in love etc
Indeed, it is our duty to be an example to the youth in Faith, love and purity. Upholding Orthodoxy is an example of doing exactly this.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661]
Many of these songs are on tasbeha
If that's true, it is part of the problem we need to evaluate and address.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661]
"If it is possible as much as depends with you live in peace with all men"
Living in peace with all men does not mean embracing their errors, but rather leading them to the fullness of the truth.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661]
If the song contains no error why would you not sing it? Is it because you judge them?
Judge nothing before the time. When the LORD comes He will reveal the counsels of all men
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160459#msg160459 date=1350137833]
Maybe you would like to tell me about a dream you saw where some protestant was burning in hell?
Wait you can't show me that dream. I must believe you!
It is wrong to insist that those who insist on Orthodoxy in Faith, doctrine, and practice are judging men or their souls. They are not. No matter how often this straw man argument is repeated, it will not stick. Please, my beloved brother, I know you can see the difference. To say that a teaching or action is wrong is not to condemn the soul of its author. We do not know if Arius or Nestorius repented in some quiet corner before they reposed. It is possible that we will find them in Paradise, along with many pious people who died in heresy because of ignorance and not willful disobedience, but that does not mean that we can condone, or worse yet adopt, their doctrines and practices.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661]
I have become all things to all men. To those under the law I was as those under the law. To those without law I became without law yet not under law towards Christ
I am so glad you brought this verse up my dear brother. St. Paul utilized his knowledge of Judaism to win the Jews to the true Faith. He used his knowledge of Greek philsophy and religion to do the same with the Greeks. But he did not permit the Greek to incorporate elements of their former tradition, such as the ecstatic fits of the Oracle of Delphi, into Orthodox Christian practice. We must be effective witnesses to all to win them to the fullness of the Faith, but our efforts would be in vain if we compromised the Faith itself in doing so.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661]
Obey custom to whom custom is due
There is a difference between the customs of men and the Holy Tradition of the Church. We do not require people to become Egyptian and follow Egyptian customs in order to become Orthodox, but they must follow the teachings and practices of Orthodoxy.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160456#msg160456 date=1350136661]
Beloved test the spirits whether they are of God.
Amen and amen. This is what we must do and are discussing here.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160457#msg160457 date=1350136873]
No he would have not used words written by Arius.
Because Arius was a rebel and a liar.
He was a willful sinner
Arius was not rejected because he was a "willful sinner" or a "liar". This is true of all men. It was his teachings that were rejected because they were in error and contradicted those of the Orthodox Church. The same is true of Protestantism.
Eutyches, by all accounts, was a pious and charitable monk, but his teachings contradicted Orthodoxy and as such were deemed heretical. This is not a condemnation of the man, but of his doctrines. The same is true of the Protestant theology conveyed in many of their of their publications, songs, etc., that have no place in Orthodox Faith or practice.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160459#msg160459 date=1350137833]
Does God need you to fight for the faith for Him?
The Lord needs no one. Did He need St. Cyril, St. Athanasius, St. Dioscoros, or St. Severus to fight for the faith for Him? But does that invalidate their efforts to witness for Orthodoxy within the context of their times? Does this mean that we should not strive for the Faith and should just float along with whatever the currents of this world bring along like dead wood on a river?
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160461#msg160461 date=1350138017]
there is a possibility instead of following what God says we invent our own rules and traditions so that we can neglect God's. "Tithe mint.. neglecting justice mercy and faith"
It is true we must distinguish between what is a cultural tradition of Egypt and what is a Holy Tradition of the Church and that we must always conduct ourselves in a loving and merciful manner, but there is no contradiction at all between this and insisting on Orthodox Faith and practice within the Church. In fact, the one is a direct outgrowth of the other. If we are conscious of what is God's Tradition, the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy in Faith and practice, we will insist upon this to the exclusion of non-Orthodox ideas and the practices that grow from them.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160461#msg160461 date=1350138017]
If you were blind you would have no sin
Amen. But if we know better and do not do better, if we deliberately turn a blind eye to deviations from the Faith and allow others to be led astray in the interest of being "politically correct", we are sinning in doing so.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160463#msg160463 date=1350140057]
if you have trouble understanding what I am saying how can you be a servant of God and think you have all the answers
This is hardly a charitable attitude to take with your brothers. Instead of assuming a lack of clarity on your own part you assume that your brother can't understand you because he is not a servant of God?
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160463#msg160463 date=1350140057]
You failed to understand that no angel no demon no things present is able to seperate us from the love of God through Christ Jesus
No, but using our free will we can separate ourselves from Him. At any rate, we are never separated from His love in that He never stops loving us, but this doesn't mean He condones or accepts all of our actions, even up to our sins and heresies.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160464#msg160464 date=1350140677]
2 Timothy 2:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will
Amen. And this is precisely what is being advocated.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160477#msg160477 date=1350193959]
You are not God to judge. But because Jesus loves you just worry about having a relationship with God. God and I am not asking you to leave the church.
Love all and leave judgement to God and be as orthodox as you want.
Did Jesus say Judge not that you be not judged for nothing?
Not judging others does not mean that we have to accept any and all teachings and practices in the Church whether they are Orthodox or not. Refraining from judging our brothers does not mean we are unable to make any judgement whatsoever concerning theology and practice.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160477#msg160477 date=1350193959]
I am of the faith of some of the ancient fathers who were considered orthodox so I consider myself orthodox
The Faith of the Ancient Fathers is not the faith professed by the Protestants. Again, this is not a judgement of individuals but a statement of fact concerning theology.
By the way, for the sake of clarity, saying that you "consider yourself orthodox" because you believe yourself to share the same faith as "some of" the ancient fathers is somewhat imprecise. For the sake of clarity, are you a communicant of the Coptic Orthodox Church or any other canonical Orthodox Church?
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=10538.msg160477#msg160477 date=1350193959]
You are an apostolic church but you are alone in your judgements to others. Are Eastern Orthodox heretics?
but they do not teach to judge heterodox
They do not teach to judge the heterodox as individuals, but they do judge their teachings and practices:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/charismatic_revival_s_rose_e.htm
My brother, please don’t judge our hearts and motives, which you cannot and do not know, even as you accuse us of judging others. Pray for us, and if we are in error on some theological point, correct us in love. We are not seeking to condemn anyone or judge them. We are only seeking to protect the youth from indoctrination with teachings and practices alien to the Church at a young and impressionable age and to help servants who have erred back onto the right path in love.
This isn’t a matter of “assimilation” or “cultural expression”. It isn’t a matter of one “style” vs. another. It has everything to do with Orthodox worship and practice as influenced by Orthodox teaching vs. that which is alien to our phronima.
"According to the Orthodox Faith, the teachings and traditions one upholds and believes in will necessarily influence and inform one's spiritual orientation and they way one worships..." Harry Boosalis
[quote author=SWMSANMG link=topic=10538.msg160509#msg160509 date=1350401512]
Friends, we are in times where our Orthodoxy is being attacked including by priests who have been ordained as Coptic priests. Some of them marginalize the sacraments, downplay the importance of the Liturgy, and introduce concepts that are blatantly anti-Orthodox. Some of them were stopped from service by H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Clerical Council and seem to have re-emerged again. Be vigilant and pray.
This is exceptionally sad and disturbing news. If you could pm me some info about this in English, I’d appreciate it.
I was having a conversation with a friend regarding this and he asked me a question that I did not know how to respond to: Can we sing western style songs with up-beat music written by Orthodox Christians in church, if they are theologically sound?
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, so long as it is not done during the Liturgy.
For example, I really like this song about St. Justin Martyr:
If an Orthodox Christian wrote a song like this and started singing it in a non-Liturgical setting at Church, I would have no problem.
This is all just my opinion, though.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160517#msg160517 date=1350423969]
I was having a conversation with a friend regarding this and he asked me a question that I did not know how to respond to: Can we sing western style songs with up-beat music written by Orthodox Christians in church, if they are theologically sound?
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, so long as it is not done during the Liturgy.
For example, I really like this song about St. Justin Martyr:
If an Orthodox Christian wrote a song like this and started singing it in a non-Liturgical setting at Church, I would have no problem.
This is all just my opinion, though.
So, if Here I am to worship was written by an Orthodox it would be fine, but it is not because a protestant wrote it? O.o
Here I am to Worship would not have been written by a true Orthodox.
Why?
That was just an example to get my point across. You can insert any other protestant song instead of Here I am to Worship.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160528#msg160528 date=1350429053]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160526#msg160526 date=1350428869]
Here I am to Worship would not have been written by a true Orthodox.
Why?
That was just an example to get my point across. You can insert any other protestant song instead of Here I am to Worship.
btw you're thinking about it the wrong way around
The issue is not the author but the content
Thus a Protestant writer might conceivably write an Orthodox song (not likely, though)
If an Orthodox writer wrote a song with Protestant theology and attitudes it would not be acceptable
So if the content is Orthodox then we can sing it in the church, it does not matter who wrote it? even if it is Arius?
You seem to disagree with Severian and I highly respect both of you guys. I am stuck!
[quote author=Severian link=topic=10538.msg160455#msg160455 date=1350135978]
^It defies the teachings of the Church to use songs written by heretics and schismatics. Do you think St. Athanasius would have approved using hymns written by Arius (even if they did not contain questionable content)?
Just for own knowledge, what is wrong with the wording in Here I am to Worship?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160531#msg160531 date=1350429791]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160530#msg160530 date=1350429446]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=10538.msg160528#msg160528 date=1350429053]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160526#msg160526 date=1350428869]
Here I am to Worship would not have been written by a true Orthodox.
Why?
That was just an example to get my point across. You can insert any other protestant song instead of Here I am to Worship.
btw you're thinking about it the wrong way around
The issue is not the author but the content
Thus a Protestant writer might conceivably write an Orthodox song (not likely, though)
If an Orthodox writer wrote a song with Protestant theology and attitudes it would not be acceptable
So if the content is Orthodox then we can sing it in the church, it does not matter who wrote it? even if it is Arius?
You seem to disagree with Severian and I highly respect both of you guys. I am stuck!
[quote author=Severian link=topic=10538.msg160455#msg160455 date=1350135978]
^It defies the teachings of the Church to use songs written by heretics and schismatics. Do you think St. Athanasius would have approved using hymns written by Arius (even if they did not contain questionable content)?
Just for own knowledge, what is wrong with the wording in Here I am to Worship?
Firstly, what is wrong with Here I am to Worship (in my humble analysis) can be found in reply 318.
Secondly, I agree with Severian in a sense - the ideal is that we only use Orthodox hymns. But since there are so few of these written in English, it may be an appropriate economia to use thoroughly checked songs from other sources. Particularly if they originate from, say, traditional Catholics (check this out: http://www.stpeterslist.com/7456/5-english-hymns-every-catholic-should-know/ ; - some of them contain wrong catholic doctrines, but #5 seems fine) or high church Arminian anglicans. I think Jonathan, whom I consider an esteemed poster, would agree with me (at least to some extent)
Third, I think Severian would agree with me, that the order of priority is the content then the source. When you were trying to agree with Severian before, you were completely negating the issue of the content, and only focussing on the source. That being said, if it's from a v good Orthodox source (St Severus, Athanasius) we don't need to bother checking the content. Unless the translation, and particularly the versification is done by Protestants, in which case certain aspects may be unduly emphasised, and certain aspects omitted.
- qawe
Sorry, I totally overlooked post number 318.
Thanks for the reply. I see your point now.
Firstly, what is wrong with Here I am to Worship (in my humble analysis) can be found in reply 318.
Secondly, I agree with Severian in a sense - the ideal is that we only use Orthodox hymns. But since there are so few of these written in English, it may be an appropriate economia to use thoroughly checked songs from other sources. Particularly if they originate from, say, traditional Catholics (check this out: http://www.stpeterslist.com/7456/5-english-hymns-every-catholic-should-know/ ; - some of them contain wrong catholic doctrines, but #5 seems fine) or high church Arminian anglicans. I think Jonathan, whom I consider an esteemed poster, would agree with me (at least to some extent)
Third, I think Severian would agree with me, that the order of priority is the content then the source. When you were trying to agree with Severian before, you were completely negating the issue of the content, and only focussing on the source. That being said, if it's from a v good Orthodox source (St Severus, Athanasius) we don't need to bother checking the content. Unless the translation, and particularly the versification is done by Protestants, in which case certain aspects may be unduly emphasised, and certain aspects omitted. eg be thou my vision
- qawe
I agree with what you are saying. This post is reflective of my position on this subject. Thank you both for the discussion.
Here is my take on your question:
1.) It is wise to resist any inclination to "contemporize" or make "cool" and "hip" that which is sacred. By doing so, you also give it an "expiration date", a time when it will no longer be "cool" and "cutting edge" and will be replaced by something else, unlike the timeless hymns of the Church.
In addition to what Severian and qawe have offered, it might also be valuable to go back to the beginning of this discussion and re-read some of the posts made by Fr. Peter and Ioannes on this subject on the first few pages.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128082#msg128082 date=1295983358]
It is the case that many modern songs represent a defective theology or spirituality, but the melodies are also often inappropriate to periods of Orthodox worship. They generally intend to inspire emotion rather than reflection.I would certainly ban all Protestant songs and tunes and the use of instruments in any corporate worship. The place of modern Orthodox songs (and I mean entirely Orthodox in content) needs to be carefully considered. The danger, it seems to me, is of producing trite and superficial words, and using emotional tunes. I am not against serious and theologically rich modern songs with appropriate and sober tunes.
If someone were to read any of St Severus' hymns, translated into English prose, they still retain their immense power, and even as prose they contain a wonderful poetry. They are serious songs for mature Christians. I think we perhaps need songs that are as accurate and meaningful. It is a mistake to simply copy Evangelical Protestant practice. Indeed there are traditions which seem to me to be much more appropriate for non-liturgical Orthodox use, such as some of the Taize songs.
Father Peter
If we're going to okay the use of "Christian” pop boy band songs in our corporate worship, how about "Christian” hip hop? "Christian” mimes and "praise dancers"? Where is the line drawn? The Roman Catholic Church, after Vatican II, wanted to "contemporize" everything in order to keep the youth in the pews. They started with "guitar masses" and ended up by this:
The solution is not to seek after shallow means of satisfying the soul, but to rediscover the depths of our Orthodox spirituality.
2.) Please consider the opinions of individuals we are blessed to have in our Church who, like Fr. Peter and Ioannes, are both:
a.) former Protestants
b.) scholars
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128093#msg128093 date=1295985680]
Non-Orthodox songs are not necessarily Christian at all. That is the problem.
Those of us that have converted are able to testify to our own experiences. We know what we are talking about.
Simply because a song mentions Jesus doesn't mean that it is Christian. It may be the worst type of heresy, or it might be damaging to a proper Christian spirituality.
The danger, it seems to me…is the creation of a sentimental emotionalism which is not the same as spirituality at all.
We don't need Orthodox pop stars. And we don't need Orthodox pop songs.
Just please, we should not ape modern Evangelical songs and performance values.
Fr. Peter here eloquently describes the danger of not only trite and potentially heretical "Christian" pop lyrics, but also of melodies and musical forms which are not conducive to genuine Orthodox spirituality.
Now, Ioannes addresses the issue of considering the source:
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128096#msg128096 date=1295987003]
Did you know Arius wrote hymns, Nestorious also wrote hymns. I am not sure that any of Arius' actually survived, but if you read some of these Non-Orthodoxy hymns, they seem to be the same, but should we sing them in church as well? No. The major problem with this is that we are telling people that all these songs written by various protestant denominations, typically charismatics, are alright. If the songs are alright then everything else must be alright, this is the logic people,especially kids, will use. Our church is in no need of any improvement, ESPECIALLY in the area of hymnology. The Holy Psalmody is the best, why would we need some shallow superficial songs by people who havent the first clue about Orthodox Christology and Theology. And yes there is no need for any instruments in church, the cymbals and triangle are to keep timing only, not to sound good and fun. That is not their purpose. Fr. Peter is correct in saying that those of us who have converted know what we are talking about, and people like Fr. Peter should be listened to when saying, we shouldnt do this.
He is absolutely correct. Other individuals, who are close to me in the world outside of cyberspace, articulate similar concerns. One, after hearing a Protestant song right off the radio sung in an Orthodox youth gathering, pointed out to me where this song was making reference to Charismatic theology, and the Orthodox kids singing it didn't even realize it. I'd like to think the servant leading them was likewise ignorant and not intentionally misleading them. She said to me, "Do you think I left the church of my birth and became Orthodox for this? If I believed this was true I could've stayed where I was!" She was upset and so was I.
In Fr. Peter's next post he articulates something very similar to what she went on to say after that:
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10538.msg128102#msg128102 date=1295988664]
One of the main issues I have with modern Protestant worship songs is that they tend to exclude people. We have discussed this in my own Church since most of us are converts.
In a modern charismatic church, generally speaking, if you are feeling happy and everything is going fine then lots of music and singing and dancing is great. There are lots of good emotions and feelings. It is a bit like a party, or taking part in an exciting musical event. (I am sure that there is an intention to worship God but I do believe that the music and emotions get in the way of this and unwittingly become an aim and an end in themselves.) To much Protestant worship is like being at a concert and singing along to very familiar and popular songs. I KNOW, I HAVE BEEN THERE MYSELF. It is very exciting to be with hundreds of other people, to be singing loudly together, to have an electric band encouraging things along. But the trouble with all of this, as many of us who have converted can testify, is that if you are struggling with sin, if you are facing many problems, if you are experiencing the Dark Night of the Soul, then there is usually nothing in such worship for you. Indeed I have been in places where the person who is not clapping and not waving their hands in the air is pointed out by the one leading worship as if they are not making the grade.
Orthodox worship is different. The emotions are engaged of course, but our worship is not emotional. There is space both for the one who is joyful and the one who is weeping. And the hymns and prayers are serious, leading our hearts and minds to heaven, rather than only stirring the emotions. No-one is excluded. And in proper liturgy there is a quiet space for the still, small voice of God to be heard.We do not need to make our liturgies, or our prayers exciting or emotional. This is like the difference between the romance of an engagement and the lasting, solid love of a marriage. The excitement will not help a couple through the difficult and dark days. Nor will an emotional worship support and strengthen us in the trials we must face each day.
Let us flee from such worship. Even without meaning to, it leads us away from Orthodoxy.
Amen to what my friend said and amen to Fr. Peter. We need to appreciate and heed the words of the former Protestants in our midst.
Check out what H.G. Bishop David says in this vid. It doesn't make sense for Orthodox servants to imitate Protestants forms of worship when so many Protestants are becoming Orthodox precisely because they recognize the fullness of the Faith therein and the shallowness of their former confessions.
Sometimes, those born into the Church don't get this or appreciate it, and ironically, they're the ones who want Protestant songs in the youth meetings, unwisely ignoring the warnings of their fellow Orthodox who were once Protestant and know of what they speak.
Remember St. Paul’s word to the Romans (12:2):
“Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”
As Orthodox Christians, we're not supposed to emulate the style of this world. We have to reorient ourselves and let God transform us, not try to transform Him to suit the fashions of this time. Don’t try to worship God on your terms based on what you might think (right now) is fun and trendy and what works for you. That’s not Orthodoxy. That’s not Christianity. That’s the world, and we have no part in it.
Orthodoxy can be translated into English in two ways.
The first part, ortho, means right or correct.
The second part – doxa – can be translated either as faith or as worship.
So Orthodoxy means “correct Faith” (or doctrine) AND correct praise (or worship). So we don’t worship God on our terms – with trendy and worldly means that aren’t part of the Holy Tradition His Apostles relayed to us – we worship Him on His terms.
Not all sacrifices, all offerings, are acceptable to God. Remember the story of Cain and Abel? Why was Cain jealous? Why did Cain slay his brother? Because he offered God something on his own terms, not on God’s, and God did not accept his sacrifice.
We have to worship God on His own terms – in the ways handed down to us by our theological ancestors – not because they constitute some cultural tradition – some tradition of men – because if they did, we could change them to suit the fashions of this world – but they DON’T – because they’re not the traditions of men, they are the “capital T” Holy Tradition ordained by God.
Eventually our church in the "land of the immigration" is going to become more westernized. We will start writing our own western style song and start singing them. So, where is the line that separates the western-style Orthodox songs and the superficial protestant ones?
Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are been built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
If we are fellow citizens with the saints, then we have the tradition of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through them. The start of the tradition was the chief cornerstone and the foundation of the apostles and prophets.
The problem that the protestants have is that the diversion of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit from the lives of the saints and the apostles to the bible is that they have linked their own interpretations to uphold their faith. This is like having people build different buildings. Whatever is part of that building, whether songs of praise or a weaking of sacraments is not part of the building we started with that had been planned.
Ephesians 1:11-12
11 In Him we have also obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the council of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
It was the apostles who first trusted in Him and that they were predestined for inheritance according to the council of His will. We are the ones to praise His glory because from the first to now the Holy spirit's inspiration has being in the building of the one and Holy apostolic orthodox church.
This is great, but where is the line that separates Orthodox music style and emotional superficial one?
Eventually our church in the "land of the immigration" is going to become more westernized. We will start writing our own western style song and start singing them. So, where is the line that separates the western-style Orthodox songs and the superficial protestant ones?
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg160548#msg160548 date=1350447191]
That is the million-dollar question for which there is no clear answer.
I don't think it can be answered by tasbeha.org
But it already has been answered in the real world outside of cyberspace. Maybe we haven't caught on in the Egyptian community yet, but it has been answered even within our own Communion in the British Orthodox Church and in Coptic Orthodox Churches in the US Virgin Islands and Bermuda where more than 95% of the congregation is non-Egyptian. They relate to Orthodoxy in a way that is not necessarily Egyptian but is fully Orthodox without any Protestant pop influence at all. There's a difference between "Western" and "pop" or even "Western" and "Protestant". Again, I would reference Fr. Peter Farrington's posts or dialogue with him directly. Here is a man who is a part of an authentically Western Orthodox tradition, whose very Church's mission is to make Orthodox Christianity relevant in a Western context. He has already answered this question in the post of his I cited earlier. Why should we neglect this resource in answering this question? How do the British Orthodox do it? How does the OCA do it? They transmit Orthodoxy in a Western context and there is nothing shallow, Protestant, or pop about it.
I am really excited to see what you guys come up with! Its really encouraging to see people so proactive and dedicated to patristics!
:)