Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so desperate for unity with the Chalcedonians. Not to be rude, but who cares what they think of us? If they want to view us as heretics, that's their prerogative. Our Saints and our Church have traditionally deemed them as heretics.
"[L]et these (I.e. heretics) be subject to the periods of penance which Timothy of saintly memory, archbishop of Alexandria, laid down with regard to those who are converted from the heresy of the Diphysites (I.e. Chalcedonians)." -St. Severus of Antioch, Letter 34
They are the ones who abandoned the Christology of the thrice-blessed St. Cyril. They are the ones who jettisoned the Sacred Ecumenical Synod of Ephesus. They are the ones who embraced Theodoret, the letter of Ibas, and the tome of Leo. They only accuse us of heresy because of their weak understanding of history. It took them over 100 years (at the second council of Constantinople) to undo the tragedy that was Chalcedon, and even then hints of Nestorianism can still be found in their Christology to this day. Not to mention the crimes they have committed against us which they deny even to this day. Not only that, they continue to venerate mass-murdering tyrants such as Maurice and Justinian!
I also dislike some of the liberal/theologically erroneous tendencies that have crept into some members of the Byzantine-Chalcedonian Churches.
For example: “The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people....Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement with God....My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position.” -PATRIARCH PARTHENIOS OF ALEXANDRIA (Orthodoxos Typos, Issue Number 854, Athens, Greece; statement made in May, 1982)
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
They also teach that non-Christians can be saved: "The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8089
An official unity with them will eventually lead to another schism, as traditionalists on both sides will undoubtedly reject such a reunion. That being said, I still support cordial relationships between the two groups as they are closest to us in terms of theology. I'd pick them over other schismatics and heretics (I.e. Protestants, Catholics, non-Trinitarians, etc.) any day.
Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so desperate for unity with the Chalcedonians. Not to be rude, but who cares what they think of us? If they want to view us as heretics, that's their prerogative. Our Saints and our Church have traditionally deemed them as heretics.
This is a lesson in history, and history is nothing but a story. We must be careful of not making the fathers into God. The question should be whether or not their Christology is heretic now or not. If Chalcedon strayed from a Cyrillic Christology, Constantinople remodeled it. The history must be left behind for the sake of reunification. We do not seek after unity so as to be loved by them, but because if we are indeed one church, then the factions are the work of the devil. We should not look back at what the fathers called others. Cyril the great likened Chrysostom to Judas Iscariot, refusing to lift his anathema. What should be said then? How could we bring the two in reconciliation after their death? It was by ignoring the name calling, and seeing what each theology stood for. It is by ignoring the history of "who hurt who" and going to the core of "what was the theology?" So this is what we must do with the Chalcedonian church. What is the theology now? Is it Orthodox? If it is, unity exists, and we must com to realize it.
I also dislike some of the liberal/theologically erroneous tendencies that have crept into some members of the Byzantine-Chalcedonian Churches.
For example: “The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people....Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement with God....My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position.” -PATRIARCH PARTHENIOS OF ALEXANDRIA (Orthodoxos Typos, Issue Number 854, Athens, Greece; statement made in May, 1982)
But this is not what we split over. We split over a doctrinal matter. This is just someone being stupid, but we have many of those in our church. What difference is this statement from a statement by a Coptic priest which regards protestants as Christians, and even praises a protestant preacher as being "foremost in the kingdom of God?" This is not corruption of the church, but folly on the part of a single member! Now there are many with this way of thinking, and it is such in the Coptic church. But a united church may be able to weed out these problems a little better. As for the Ecumenical Patriarch praying with the Jews, the entire church opposed this action, causing him to be ridiculed for it (again, the actions of one person do not constitute enough reasons for a division). But we Coptic have had prayer meetings with Muslims. We have invited heretics, and others into our church to preach, and pray. We have both acted outside the canon of the church. So we must forgive each other and ask for repentance from our sins. It is this method of unity which Fr. Mathew the Poor supported, saying that unity will be found through repentance.
The teaching that non-christians can be saved is a valid one, in my opinion. It was held by Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and Chrysostom. The idea is that the saving work of Christ is beyond our comprehension. As we know, salvation is only through the church. But suppose that God wishes to save someone. should he not then have the right to do so? I recommend actually reading the entire article, and following the links to the sources. We do not have a monopoly on salvation. Christ can save whom he chooses.
All the issues herein are secondary, and matters of behavior. They are not central dogma's theologomenia. Praying with the Jews and praying with protestants is a stupid move. Blessing Mohammad, and Blessing Benny Hinn are both stupid moves. But the issue lies in the doctrine of the Nature of Christ. This is the issue which needs to be resolved. All else is secondary.
I think we should be realistic. Not pretending like there is no problem and that we are all one Church, on the other side not to be bitter and with prejudice.
Brother Severian, although I agree with you in some extent, I again see bitterness and prejudices. For example, you criticized us for ecumenism, but the same thing you do. Your Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I Iwas is, for example, world known ecumenist. He is also prominent member of World Council of Churches who gathers most weird protestant organizations, he was even the president of WCC in nineties.
Let us be realistic and without prejudice.
Not just "they are this, they are that". Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye.
[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14334.msg163920#msg163920 date=1363938564] [quote author=minasoliman link=topic=14334.msg163914#msg163914 date=1363905895] Just to add some perspective, I know a family who lived in Saudi Arabia for a job, and they lived there for five years, with no church in sight because it's illegal. So you're not alone in this world. Be strong and patient.
Hey Mina,
One second there big guy. I really don't like to be compared to anyone living in Saudi arabia. I do not understand why Christians go there?? I'd be prefer ANY job outside - if its well known that u cannot have a Church there, and that you cannot even PRAY in your own homes there - why go? I do not respect this.
I am in Europe. Its not always easy to get a job in the same town, so I have to move around. I'm not sure if you are aware, but a lot of work is being done in China and India so to actually have a job anywhere in the EU is a blessing, if not a miracle.
All Im saying bro is that its a HUGE shame we are divided. I think had the Church fathers of ALL denominations seen where we'd be today, they'd have forgotten about the filoque and not even bothered with Chalcedon.
yeah, I changed my name because apparently its Dthoxsasi not zoxsasi
I ask you to be a bit more humble and sympathetic to those Egyptian families who probably have found no other jobs offered to them except ones in Saudi Arabia. You don't know their story, and you shouldn't make sweeping judgments on them like that. They are actually a very very religious family, who is thankful throughout the years that they came to a place in the US with a new job with a nearby area where a visiting Coptic priest comes twice a month. This woman also does a lot of social services as well in her area, and is a good example to the Coptic community.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg163944#msg163944 date=1364134893] Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so desperate for unity with the Chalcedonians. Not to be rude, but who cares what they think of us? If they want to view us as heretics, that's their prerogative. Our Saints and our Church have traditionally deemed them as heretics.
"[L]et these (I.e. heretics) be subject to the periods of penance which Timothy of saintly memory, archbishop of Alexandria, laid down with regard to those who are converted from the heresy of the Diphysites (I.e. Chalcedonians)." -St. Severus of Antioch, Letter 34
They are the ones who abandoned the Christology of the thrice-blessed St. Cyril. They are the ones who jettisoned the Sacred Ecumenical Synod of Ephesus. They are the ones who embraced Theodoret, the letter of Ibas, and the tome of Leo. They only accuse us of heresy because of their weak understanding of history. It took them over 100 years (at the second council of Constantinople) to undo the tragedy that was Chalcedon, and even then hints of Nestorianism can still be found in their Christology to this day. Not to mention the crimes they have committed against us which they deny even to this day. Not only that, they continue to venerate mass-murdering tyrants such as Maurice and Justinian!
I also dislike some of the liberal/theologically erroneous tendencies that have crept into some members of the Byzantine-Chalcedonian Churches.
For example: “The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people....Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement with God....My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position.” -PATRIARCH PARTHENIOS OF ALEXANDRIA (Orthodoxos Typos, Issue Number 854, Athens, Greece; statement made in May, 1982)
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
They also teach that non-Christians can be saved: "The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8089
An official unity with them will eventually lead to another schism, as traditionalists on both sides will undoubtedly reject such a reunion. That being said, I still support cordial relationships between the two groups as they are closest to us in terms of theology. I'd pick them over other schismatics and heretics (I.e. Protestants, Catholics, non-Trinitarians, etc.) any day.
Severian,
Thank you for making this appropriate Orthodox opening for Temptation Sunday on the new censored Tasbeha.org. I won't shake the narrow, dialectical censorship dust from my feet yet. Today we are reminded, in every Gospel reading, that Jesus taught us to pray, "Away with you, Satan."
My friends, you have written much. Therefore I must humbly ask you to be patient with me and give me some time to respond to your lengthy posts. But for now I must say this, I did not write what I did to purposely cause offense; especially during this Holy Season of Great Lent. I was merely trying to clearly and unambiguously express my criticism of trends that are found among both Chalcedonians and OOs.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=14334.msg163928#msg163928 date=1364022736] you can proceed to partake in the catholic communion under the guidance of a Coptic priest (in reality you should be under the guidance of a Coptic priest with Russian or catholic communion). for the catholic Communion is an apostolic communion also, so you will be fine!
[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14334.msg163827#msg163827 date=1363605523] What can we do to stop being heretical? I'm fed up.
I didn't know that being Coptic Orthodox would even make me an outcast amongst other Orthodox Christians..
To answer your question, I live in the middle of nowhere - so there's no Armenian/Eritrean/Sudanese/Syrian orthodox Churches around. Please be realistic guys.
What's worse is that even if we were not seen as heretical and were accepted by the Greeks and Russian Orthodox Churches, their liturgies are very odd. The chanting there isn't exactly moving or encouraging. Its a bit like an opera. A few people sing, and the rest just stand there in the cold.
Concerning the Catholics, lol - they look at us as if we are some weird cult with a "wannabe" Pope. The majority of them do not even know we have a Pope, and when they find out that there are 2 Popes, well, they have the same reaction we have when that wacko Max Michel decided to become a Pope.
They have no idea on our history, our theology or anything.
Why am I saying this is that EVEN if we end up in the Catholic Church (on a part-time basis) - the congregation will ALWAYS look at us in a strange way, as if we're trying to destroy their Church by "creating" our own Pope.
None of the behaviour of all these CHurches really encourages integration and Unity, and its so unchristian, its hard to believe that the head of the Church really is God.
How can God have anything to do with a bunch of Churches that are continually attacking each other, and not even recognising the validity of each other's sacraments???
Did our Church leaders ever bother thinking on the effect of this stupid division on the lives of the congregation. The only ones benefiting from this self-righteous attitude of "we are right and holding onto the truth" are the Church theological text books.
As for the living members of the Church, those who need some kind of community, fellowship, or engagement in the sacraments (communion/confession etc) - they are the ones who will suffer the most.
Whilst all of this is going on... do you think that our population(s) are increasing or decreasing?
We are decreasing. We are unwittingly killing ourselves.
I wish a bishop to read my post and explain to me what on earth he had in mind for Orthodox Coptic Christians living outside of Egypt to do when they have no Coptic Church around them?
I spent 4 hours listening to Russian liturgy without any text books, nothing. I did not gain anything. We cannot keep on going on like this: Orthodoxy should not even be restricted to your nationality; but unfortunately, it is. I think, personally, that Catholicism is probably the right attitude, but they need some Orthodoxy in terms of their rites, their dogmas and theology.
I think we look stupid, as Churches, hanging on to our differences and living in division, no matter who is right, we've all lost.
Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to Evangelize. Form your own Church and bring others to the glorious knowledge of our Living God!!! When they see your zeal and how, against all odds you refused to give up; I'm sure many will be won over for Christ! It could be a great family project. And a seeming 'curse' can turn into an abundant blessing! Here is the email of our COC father Isaac Elantony (Abouna): [email protected] He is a Hegumen; which means he has the authority to form COC's. And he passes through France on his way back to Egypt from here.
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute. And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00. And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand.
Don't know what to say on this issue. If you look at it from a purely cultural point of view in terms of practice, and not on theological level, then I would say it's okay to kiss the hands. The only problem is we as Copts turned the cultural into a religious issue, since we don't kiss the hands of our bosses, political leaders, and elderly people anymore.
Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so desperate for unity with the Chalcedonians. Not to be rude, but who cares what they think of us? If they want to view us as heretics, that's their prerogative. Our Saints and our Church have traditionally deemed them as heretics.
This is a lesson in history, and history is nothing but a story. We must be careful of not making the fathers into God. The question should be whether or not their Christology is heretic now or not. If Chalcedon strayed from a Cyrillic Christology, Constantinople remodeled it. The history must be left behind for the sake of reunification. We do not seek after unity so as to be loved by them, but because if we are indeed one church, then the factions are the work of the devil. We should not look back at what the fathers called others. Cyril the great likened Chrysostom to Judas Iscariot, refusing to lift his anathema. What should be said then? How could we bring the two in reconciliation after their death? It was by ignoring the name calling, and seeing what each theology stood for. It is by ignoring the history of "who hurt who" and going to the core of "what was the theology?" So this is what we must do with the Chalcedonian church. What is the theology now? Is it Orthodox? If it is, unity exists, and we must com to realize it.
RO,
This was probably one of the best ways I have seen such an issue represented. In all seriousness, this should be said at the next theological council between the Churches ;) May God bless you and truly grant us Christian Unity.
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute. And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00. And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand. While I do not necessarily agree with this, I would still not put that on par with praying with Jews.
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute. And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00. And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand. While I do not necessarily agree with this, I would still not put that on par with praying with Jews.
That is to say Coptic ecumenism is good one, and Greek ecumenism is bad one. :)
^No. If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I would probably condemn him just as strongly if not more so. The difference is that while I do consider the Latins to be Schismatic and heretical, at the very least they accept the doctrine of the Most-Holy Trinity and the Incarnation and Messiah-ship of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Jews do not.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg164090#msg164090 date=1365049055] ^No. If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I would probably condemn him just as strongly if not more so.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg164091#msg164091 date=1365049404] [quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg164090#msg164090 date=1365049055] ^No. If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I would probably condemn him just as strongly if not more so.
This "probably" gives me the hope :) Sorry, I wrote "probably" due to a force of habit (I rarely speak in terms of absolutes). Let me rephrase my previous statement:
"If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I wouldprobably condemn him just as strongly if not more so."
Severian, your zeal is admirable, but let's examine this. I didn't watch the entire Youtube video but I don't see where Patriarch Bartholomew prayed with Jewish leaders. It appears that he simply attended this conference/meeting. I don't think we can condemn someone for attending a Jewish meeting, especially when it is the ecumenical patriarch. If this was true, we should condemn Pope Shenouda for official meetings with Muslim leaders at Al-Azhar. And should we condemn Pope Tawadros for congratulating Muslim leaders in attendance during his festal sermons.
This doesn't mean we agree with Jewish or Islamic theology. It only means we are brothers and we need to stop blaming each other for being different.
Our leaders should be kissing each other and anyone who treat us respectfully so that it will trickle down to grassroots level and we can learn from them and stop condemning each other. This is not because we want to be touchy/feely. It is because we are called to be one and make every effort to "keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" as we are called to do with everyone (even non-Christians).
We also prayed with Protestants, and had prayer meeting with them. From the perspective of law, prying with ptoestants is no different from praying with Muslims. Both worship a God they do not know, rejecting the truth of the true God (since this is in fact what heresy is.)
From a neutral point of view, praying with Jews is no different from praying with protestants. That is if it even was a prayer meeting with Jews. What unity does light have with darkness (any darkness - be it protestant or islamic).
Again, the acts of an individual are just that. Individual.
Yes the acts of an individual are the individuals. But the intention of the individual and the result of an individual's acts are often reflective of a culture. The consequences of an individual's acts are communal. No man is an island to himself but part of the continent.
While light has no unity with darkness, it is light that shines in the darkness. People do not respond when light shines in light. Jesus didn't say "Let your light shine only to other light, rather he said let your light shine in the darkness." Why? Because when we were in darkness, light shone on us through the Incarnation. It is our duty to shine that light on those still in darkness. We still have unity with those in darkness.
Additionally, those who condemn someone because of their faith is living in darkness. In essence you are claiming they are in sin and I am not. "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). And "if we claim to have fellowship with him [God] and yet walk in the darkness [or condemning others while claiming we are not sinful], we lie and do not live out the truth." (1 John 1:6)
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14334.msg164103#msg164103 date=1365107625] Yes the acts of an individual are the individuals. But the intention of the individual and the result of an individual's acts are often reflective of a culture. The consequences of an individual's acts are communal. No man is an island to himself but part of the continent.
Yes, but what RO is saying is that the EP's actions in this case are NOT reflective of the culture of the EO church.
While light has no unity with darkness... It is our duty to shine that light on those still in darkness. We still have unity with those in darkness.
Your first and last sentences border on contradiction - this kind of verbal gymnastics seems to obscure the issue. If you believe there is nothing wrong with praying with those outside of the Orthodox Church (excluding instances when it is purely Orthodox prayers in an Orthodox environment), just say so outright. Additionally, shining light on those in darkness is not the same as having unity with those in darkness.
Additionally, those who condemn someone because of their faith is living in darkness.
No-one is doing that. We are condemning the false faith itself.
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute. And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00. And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand. While I do not necessarily agree with this, I would still not put that on par with praying with Jews.
does anyone here understand this? well, my French is better than my English, and all I can say is that no word was mentioned about the Coptic Church. Our bishops were the last ones to have met with pope Francis.
The commentator did not mention our Church once.
All i'm saying is that being Coptic tends to make you be seen as a part of a Cult, not as part of an apostolic Church.
I don't think, yet I could be wrong, that Unity will happen. All that's going to happen is these men in black and white will meet once a year to tell each other how much they love each other and how much unity is important, but nothing will happen.
If Unity between us was meant to happen, it would have happened long ago.
Just a question: how many Popes existed in the 3rd century?
[quote author=qawe link=topic=14334.msg164105#msg164105 date=1365113664] Your first and last sentences border on contradiction - this kind of verbal gymnastics seems to obscure the issue. If you believe there is nothing wrong with praying with those outside of the Orthodox Church (excluding instances when it is purely Orthodox prayers in an Orthodox environment), just say so outright. Sorry for the confusion. Darkness and sin do not have unity with God and goodness. God will never sin and will never want us to sin. The devil and darkness only want humans to sin and fall. In this sense, there is no unity with darkness and light.
If praying with someone of another faith means I believe in their faith, then I will outright say it's wrong. However, praying to Jesus Christ in the presence of a Muslim or a Jew asking Christ to help them is not wrong. Using a little etiquette, I can easily pray to Jesus Christ and say "Lord help my brother Shiekh X or Rabbi Y" and I am not praying to Allah or sharing with those who crucified Christ.
Additionally, shining light on those in darkness is not the same as having unity with those in darkness.
People seem to think that any type of unity with those in darkness must mean they share in their darkness. Let me ask you a question. Did the five wise virgins who carried extra oil have any unity with the five foolish virgins who didn't carry extra oil? If you say no, then why are they introduced as "The kingdom of heaven is like 10 virgins who came out to meet the bridegroom" instead of "The kingdom of heaven is like five wise virgins who were not like the five foolish virgins"? If you say yes, then people can have unity with those in darkness and not partake of their darkness. Rather the presence of righteous people can shine light on those in the darkness.
Let me put it another way. If my brother is a convicted criminal and I am a righteous person (as defined by God, not myself), do I still have unity with my brother or not? No matter how dark my brother is and how far away from the light he has travelled, he will always be my brother. I will always have unity with a person who is so diametrically polar to myself. Now if God allows, and I have enough spiritual strength, my presence can shine on my dark brother and bring him back to God.
Additionally, those who condemn someone because of their faith is living in darkness.
No-one is doing that. We are condemning the false faith itself.
Really? Is Eastern Orthodoxy a false faith because their patriarch attended a Jewish meeting? Or were Servos, Severian and RO and others simply commenting on the actions of individual hierarchy? The fact that certain actions, like attending a Jewish meeting or kissing a Roman bishops hand, or being told an individual is a monophysite, are seen in contempt reflect not only on an individual but on the community of that individual.
We can sugar coat it all we want. When someone says "See. A Coptic bishop did this contemptuous thing", it implies, "all Copts do this". Subsequently, it implies "all Copts are contemptuous" and subsequently again it implies, "I'm right and the Copts are wrong". There is contempt for the person living that faith, not the faith itself. If the faith itself was the issue, then that someone would say, "See. The Copts believe in X and it is false because of reason Y". This person would condemn a faith, not the person.
Our discussion on Leo's Tome showed that it may appeared that Leo condemned a faith and not a person because he tried to show Eutyches believes in X and it is false because of reason Y, (where X=Leo's version of the theology of one nature after the union and Y=Leo's Tome). In reality, Leo actually said, "Eutyches may have said X" and Leo's reason Y was actually erroneous in itself. Consequently, Leo was showing contempt for all people whom he thought believed in X, not Eutyches himself or X itself because no one actually believed in X. Leo was showing contempt for people, not the faith. We also know that Zoxasi started this thread because of a Russian priest who showed contempt for any Copt who didn't believe as he did. We are now inadvertently associating the Ecumenical Patriarch with Jews and the Copts with Roman Catholics. It is all a reflection of a person's cultural, communal or social understanding of those who are different. This in turn is a reflection of a poor understanding of Scripturally-based ecumenism and Christian love.
I think before we point fingers at other hierarchs and at our eastern Orthodox Brethren we should probably take a look internally given that our Coptic Church seems to be headed in a heterodox direction in many central beliefs of Orthodoxy.
Lets worry about our situation given that the Eastern Orthodox have been able to uphold the earnest and Apostolic Orthodox faith (even if you want to debate that they fell away from it at Chalcedon, they redeemed that at Constantinople II).
is Synchronized Orthodox Biker Crossing an olympic sport? I give them a 10 for form, a 10 for speed and a 10 for synchronizing. But why are they doing it in the middle of the desert behind an airplane runway?
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14334.msg164314#msg164314 date=1366838773] But why are they doing it in the middle of the desert behind an airplane runway?
I picked it up on the net. It is from some Serbian movie, I think :)
Comments
"[L]et these (I.e. heretics) be subject to the periods of penance which Timothy of saintly memory, archbishop of Alexandria, laid down with regard to those who are converted from the heresy of the Diphysites (I.e. Chalcedonians)."
-St. Severus of Antioch, Letter 34
They are the ones who abandoned the Christology of the thrice-blessed St. Cyril. They are the ones who jettisoned the Sacred Ecumenical Synod of Ephesus. They are the ones who embraced Theodoret, the letter of Ibas, and the tome of Leo. They only accuse us of heresy because of their weak understanding of history. It took them over 100 years (at the second council of Constantinople) to undo the tragedy that was Chalcedon, and even then hints of Nestorianism can still be found in their Christology to this day. Not to mention the crimes they have committed against us which they deny even to this day. Not only that, they continue to venerate mass-murdering tyrants such as Maurice and Justinian!
I also dislike some of the liberal/theologically erroneous tendencies that have crept into some members of the Byzantine-Chalcedonian Churches.
For example:
“The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people....Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement with God....My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position.”
-PATRIARCH PARTHENIOS OF ALEXANDRIA (Orthodoxos Typos, Issue Number 854, Athens, Greece; statement made in May, 1982)
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
They also teach that non-Christians can be saved:
"The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8089
An official unity with them will eventually lead to another schism, as traditionalists on both sides will undoubtedly reject such a reunion. That being said, I still support cordial relationships between the two groups as they are closest to us in terms of theology. I'd pick them over other schismatics and heretics (I.e. Protestants, Catholics, non-Trinitarians, etc.) any day.
The teaching that non-christians can be saved is a valid one, in my opinion. It was held by Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and Chrysostom. The idea is that the saving work of Christ is beyond our comprehension. As we know, salvation is only through the church. But suppose that God wishes to save someone. should he not then have the right to do so? I recommend actually reading the entire article, and following the links to the sources. We do not have a monopoly on salvation. Christ can save whom he chooses.
All the issues herein are secondary, and matters of behavior. They are not central dogma's theologomenia. Praying with the Jews and praying with protestants is a stupid move. Blessing Mohammad, and Blessing Benny Hinn are both stupid moves. But the issue lies in the doctrine of the Nature of Christ. This is the issue which needs to be resolved. All else is secondary.
RO
Brother Severian, although I agree with you in some extent, I again see bitterness and prejudices.
For example, you criticized us for ecumenism, but the same thing you do. Your Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I Iwas is, for example, world known ecumenist. He is also prominent member of World Council of Churches who gathers most weird protestant organizations, he was even the president of WCC in nineties.
Let us be realistic and without prejudice.
Not just "they are this, they are that".
Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye.
[quote author=minasoliman link=topic=14334.msg163914#msg163914 date=1363905895]
Just to add some perspective, I know a family who lived in Saudi Arabia for a job, and they lived there for five years, with no church in sight because it's illegal. So you're not alone in this world. Be strong and patient.
Hey Mina,
One second there big guy. I really don't like to be compared to anyone living in Saudi arabia. I do not understand why Christians go there?? I'd be prefer ANY job outside - if its well known that u cannot have a Church there, and that you cannot even PRAY in your own homes there - why go? I do not respect this.
I am in Europe. Its not always easy to get a job in the same town, so I have to move around. I'm not sure if you are aware, but a lot of work is being done in China and India so to actually have a job anywhere in the EU is a blessing, if not a miracle.
All Im saying bro is that its a HUGE shame we are divided. I think had the Church fathers of ALL denominations seen where we'd be today, they'd have forgotten about the filoque and not even bothered with Chalcedon.
yeah, I changed my name because apparently its Dthoxsasi not zoxsasi
I ask you to be a bit more humble and sympathetic to those Egyptian families who probably have found no other jobs offered to them except ones in Saudi Arabia. You don't know their story, and you shouldn't make sweeping judgments on them like that. They are actually a very very religious family, who is thankful throughout the years that they came to a place in the US with a new job with a nearby area where a visiting Coptic priest comes twice a month. This woman also does a lot of social services as well in her area, and is a good example to the Coptic community.
Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so desperate for unity with the Chalcedonians. Not to be rude, but who cares what they think of us? If they want to view us as heretics, that's their prerogative. Our Saints and our Church have traditionally deemed them as heretics.
"[L]et these (I.e. heretics) be subject to the periods of penance which Timothy of saintly memory, archbishop of Alexandria, laid down with regard to those who are converted from the heresy of the Diphysites (I.e. Chalcedonians)."
-St. Severus of Antioch, Letter 34
They are the ones who abandoned the Christology of the thrice-blessed St. Cyril. They are the ones who jettisoned the Sacred Ecumenical Synod of Ephesus. They are the ones who embraced Theodoret, the letter of Ibas, and the tome of Leo. They only accuse us of heresy because of their weak understanding of history. It took them over 100 years (at the second council of Constantinople) to undo the tragedy that was Chalcedon, and even then hints of Nestorianism can still be found in their Christology to this day. Not to mention the crimes they have committed against us which they deny even to this day. Not only that, they continue to venerate mass-murdering tyrants such as Maurice and Justinian!
I also dislike some of the liberal/theologically erroneous tendencies that have crept into some members of the Byzantine-Chalcedonian Churches.
For example:
“The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people....Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement with God....My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position.”
-PATRIARCH PARTHENIOS OF ALEXANDRIA (Orthodoxos Typos, Issue Number 854, Athens, Greece; statement made in May, 1982)
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
They also teach that non-Christians can be saved:
"The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8089
An official unity with them will eventually lead to another schism, as traditionalists on both sides will undoubtedly reject such a reunion. That being said, I still support cordial relationships between the two groups as they are closest to us in terms of theology. I'd pick them over other schismatics and heretics (I.e. Protestants, Catholics, non-Trinitarians, etc.) any day.
Severian,
Thank you for making this appropriate Orthodox opening for Temptation Sunday on the new censored Tasbeha.org. I won't shake the narrow, dialectical censorship dust from my feet yet. Today we are reminded, in every Gospel reading, that Jesus taught us to pray, "Away with you, Satan."
Peace and blessings in Christ.
you can proceed to partake in the catholic communion under the guidance of a Coptic priest (in reality you should be under the guidance of a Coptic priest with Russian or catholic communion). for the catholic Communion is an apostolic communion also, so you will be fine!
Mr SupermanBAM! Welcome back bro.
Is this true? Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
What can we do to stop being heretical? I'm fed up.
I didn't know that being Coptic Orthodox would even make me an outcast amongst other Orthodox Christians..
To answer your question, I live in the middle of nowhere - so there's no Armenian/Eritrean/Sudanese/Syrian orthodox Churches around. Please be realistic guys.
What's worse is that even if we were not seen as heretical and were accepted by the Greeks and Russian Orthodox Churches, their liturgies are very odd. The chanting there isn't exactly moving or encouraging. Its a bit like an opera. A few people sing, and the rest just stand there in the cold.
Concerning the Catholics, lol - they look at us as if we are some weird cult with a "wannabe" Pope. The majority of them do not even know we have a Pope, and when they find out that there are 2 Popes, well, they have the same reaction we have when that wacko Max Michel decided to become a Pope.
They have no idea on our history, our theology or anything.
Why am I saying this is that EVEN if we end up in the Catholic Church (on a part-time basis) - the congregation will ALWAYS look at us in a strange way, as if we're trying to destroy their Church by "creating" our own Pope.
None of the behaviour of all these CHurches really encourages integration and Unity, and its so unchristian, its hard to believe that the head of the Church really is God.
How can God have anything to do with a bunch of Churches that are continually attacking each other, and not even recognising the validity of each other's sacraments???
Did our Church leaders ever bother thinking on the effect of this stupid division on the lives of the congregation. The only ones benefiting from this self-righteous attitude of "we are right and holding onto the truth" are the Church theological text books.
As for the living members of the Church, those who need some kind of community, fellowship, or engagement in the sacraments (communion/confession etc) - they are the ones who will suffer the most.
Whilst all of this is going on... do you think that our population(s) are increasing or decreasing?
We are decreasing. We are unwittingly killing ourselves.
I wish a bishop to read my post and explain to me what on earth he had in mind for Orthodox Coptic Christians living outside of Egypt to do when they have no Coptic Church around them?
I spent 4 hours listening to Russian liturgy without any text books, nothing. I did not gain anything. We cannot keep on going on like this: Orthodoxy should not even be restricted to your nationality; but unfortunately, it is. I think, personally, that Catholicism is probably the right attitude, but they need some Orthodoxy in terms of their rites, their dogmas and theology.
I think we look stupid, as Churches, hanging on to our differences and living in division, no matter who is right, we've all lost.
Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to Evangelize. Form your own Church and bring others to the glorious knowledge of our Living God!!!
When they see your zeal and how, against all odds you refused to give up; I'm sure many will be won over for Christ!
It could be a great family project. And a seeming 'curse' can turn into an abundant blessing!
Here is the email of our COC father Isaac Elantony (Abouna): [email protected] He is a Hegumen; which means he has the authority to form COC's. And he passes through France on his way back to Egypt from here.
GB
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc
Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute.
And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00.
And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand.
RO,
This was probably one of the best ways I have seen such an issue represented. In all seriousness, this should be said at the next theological council between the Churches ;) May God bless you and truly grant us Christian Unity.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg163944#msg163944 date=1364134893]
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc
Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute.
And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00.
And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand.
While I do not necessarily agree with this, I would still not put that on par with praying with Jews.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg164084#msg164084 date=1365010046]
[quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg163944#msg163944 date=1364134893]
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc
Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute.
And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00.
And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand.
While I do not necessarily agree with this, I would still not put that on par with praying with Jews.
That is to say Coptic ecumenism is good one, and Greek ecumenism is bad one.
:)
EDIT: Crossed out the word "probably."
^No. If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I would probably condemn him just as strongly if not more so.
This "probably" gives me the hope :)
[quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg164090#msg164090 date=1365049055]
^No. If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I would probably condemn him just as strongly if not more so.
This "probably" gives me the hope :)
Sorry, I wrote "probably" due to a force of habit (I rarely speak in terms of absolutes). Let me rephrase my previous statement:
"If a Coptic Hierarch prayed with Jews I would probably condemn him just as strongly if not more so."
This doesn't mean we agree with Jewish or Islamic theology. It only means we are brothers and we need to stop blaming each other for being different.
Our leaders should be kissing each other and anyone who treat us respectfully so that it will trickle down to grassroots level and we can learn from them and stop condemning each other. This is not because we want to be touchy/feely. It is because we are called to be one and make every effort to "keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" as we are called to do with everyone (even non-Christians).
From a neutral point of view, praying with Jews is no different from praying with protestants. That is if it even was a prayer meeting with Jews. What unity does light have with darkness (any darkness - be it protestant or islamic).
Again, the acts of an individual are just that. Individual.
RO
While light has no unity with darkness, it is light that shines in the darkness. People do not respond when light shines in light. Jesus didn't say "Let your light shine only to other light, rather he said let your light shine in the darkness." Why? Because when we were in darkness, light shone on us through the Incarnation. It is our duty to shine that light on those still in darkness. We still have unity with those in darkness.
Additionally, those who condemn someone because of their faith is living in darkness. In essence you are claiming they are in sin and I am not. "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). And "if we claim to have fellowship with him [God] and yet walk in the darkness [or condemning others while claiming we are not sinful], we lie and do not live out the truth." (1 John 1:6)
Yes the acts of an individual are the individuals. But the intention of the individual and the result of an individual's acts are often reflective of a culture. The consequences of an individual's acts are communal. No man is an island to himself but part of the continent.
Yes, but what RO is saying is that the EP's actions in this case are NOT reflective of the culture of the EO church. Your first and last sentences border on contradiction - this kind of verbal gymnastics seems to obscure the issue. If you believe there is nothing wrong with praying with those outside of the Orthodox Church (excluding instances when it is purely Orthodox prayers in an Orthodox environment), just say so outright. Additionally, shining light on those in darkness is not the same as having unity with those in darkness. No-one is doing that. We are condemning the false faith itself.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg164084#msg164084 date=1365010046]
[quote author=Severian link=topic=14334.msg163944#msg163944 date=1364134893]
And here, their Ecumenical Patriarch prayed with Jews:
In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nupeB7Blc
Some Coptic bishop kiss the hand of the Bishop of Rome at 0:43:30 minute.
And two other Coptic bishops kiss the hand twice in 0:44:00.
And after them 4 Armenian bishops kiss the hand.
While I do not necessarily agree with this, I would still not put that on par with praying with Jews.
does anyone here understand this?
well, my French is better than my English, and all I can say is that no word was mentioned about the Coptic Church. Our bishops were the last ones to have met with pope Francis.
The commentator did not mention our Church once.
All i'm saying is that being Coptic tends to make you be seen as a part of a Cult, not as part of an apostolic Church.
I don't think, yet I could be wrong, that Unity will happen. All that's going to happen is these men in black and white will meet once a year to tell each other how much they love each other and how much unity is important, but nothing will happen.
If Unity between us was meant to happen, it would have happened long ago.
Just a question: how many Popes existed in the 3rd century?
Your first and last sentences border on contradiction - this kind of verbal gymnastics seems to obscure the issue. If you believe there is nothing wrong with praying with those outside of the Orthodox Church (excluding instances when it is purely Orthodox prayers in an Orthodox environment), just say so outright.
Sorry for the confusion. Darkness and sin do not have unity with God and goodness. God will never sin and will never want us to sin. The devil and darkness only want humans to sin and fall. In this sense, there is no unity with darkness and light.
If praying with someone of another faith means I believe in their faith, then I will outright say it's wrong. However, praying to Jesus Christ in the presence of a Muslim or a Jew asking Christ to help them is not wrong. Using a little etiquette, I can easily pray to Jesus Christ and say "Lord help my brother Shiekh X or Rabbi Y" and I am not praying to Allah or sharing with those who crucified Christ. People seem to think that any type of unity with those in darkness must mean they share in their darkness.
Let me ask you a question. Did the five wise virgins who carried extra oil have any unity with the five foolish virgins who didn't carry extra oil? If you say no, then why are they introduced as "The kingdom of heaven is like 10 virgins who came out to meet the bridegroom" instead of "The kingdom of heaven is like five wise virgins who were not like the five foolish virgins"? If you say yes, then people can have unity with those in darkness and not partake of their darkness. Rather the presence of righteous people can shine light on those in the darkness.
Let me put it another way. If my brother is a convicted criminal and I am a righteous person (as defined by God, not myself), do I still have unity with my brother or not? No matter how dark my brother is and how far away from the light he has travelled, he will always be my brother. I will always have unity with a person who is so diametrically polar to myself. Now if God allows, and I have enough spiritual strength, my presence can shine on my dark brother and bring him back to God. Really? Is Eastern Orthodoxy a false faith because their patriarch attended a Jewish meeting? Or were Servos, Severian and RO and others simply commenting on the actions of individual hierarchy? The fact that certain actions, like attending a Jewish meeting or kissing a Roman bishops hand, or being told an individual is a monophysite, are seen in contempt reflect not only on an individual but on the community of that individual.
We can sugar coat it all we want. When someone says "See. A Coptic bishop did this contemptuous thing", it implies, "all Copts do this". Subsequently, it implies "all Copts are contemptuous" and subsequently again it implies, "I'm right and the Copts are wrong". There is contempt for the person living that faith, not the faith itself. If the faith itself was the issue, then that someone would say, "See. The Copts believe in X and it is false because of reason Y". This person would condemn a faith, not the person.
Our discussion on Leo's Tome showed that it may appeared that Leo condemned a faith and not a person because he tried to show Eutyches believes in X and it is false because of reason Y, (where X=Leo's version of the theology of one nature after the union and Y=Leo's Tome). In reality, Leo actually said, "Eutyches may have said X" and Leo's reason Y was actually erroneous in itself. Consequently, Leo was showing contempt for all people whom he thought believed in X, not Eutyches himself or X itself because no one actually believed in X. Leo was showing contempt for people, not the faith. We also know that Zoxasi started this thread because of a Russian priest who showed contempt for any Copt who didn't believe as he did. We are now inadvertently associating the Ecumenical Patriarch with Jews and the Copts with Roman Catholics. It is all a reflection of a person's cultural, communal or social understanding of those who are different. This in turn is a reflection of a poor understanding of Scripturally-based ecumenism and Christian love.
Again I apologize if I confused anyone.
Lets worry about our situation given that the Eastern Orthodox have been able to uphold the earnest and Apostolic Orthodox faith (even if you want to debate that they fell away from it at Chalcedon, they redeemed that at Constantinople II).
Pray for me
But why are they doing it in the middle of the desert behind an airplane runway?
I picked it up on the net. It is from some Serbian movie, I think :)
What church is that?