[quote author=The least of all link=topic=10538.msg160554#msg160554 date=1350488868] AntoniousNikolas and Severian!
I am really excited to see what you guys come up with! Its really encouraging to see people so proactive and dedicated to patristics!
:)
AMEN! I do not know much and I am not capable of much, but if there is anyway I can help I would be more than happy to do so. Please keep us up to date!
Thanks, guys. Personally, I think it is every servant's duty to simply speak up as much as they are able and say that this stuff is not acceptable or wanted in our Church. Many servants are doing this simply because they think that this is the best way to keep the youth interested, but if you actually take the time to speak with the youth they are hungry for Orthodoxy, and if you take the time to explain to them why this is not appropriate food for their souls in a loving, gentle way, they are very receptive.
Once some sort of formal writing is produced, it will be great to have people help spread the word. In the meantime, please pray for our weakness. Pray for the success of this service, that we are able to accomplish it in love and humility and not hurt anyone, engender animosity in them, or have anyone "take it personally" when it is not personal at all but simply a matter of Orthodox Faith and practice. Please pray that God strengthens the clergy, servants, and youth of our Church, grounds them in Orthodoxy, gives them clarity, and helps them to recognize the snares of the enemy. Please pray that God gives us a good shepherd who takes a strong stand on this issue as H.H. Pope Shenouda did, and that the bishops and priests, who have so much to occupy their attention, will also recognize this danger and address it.
On a personal note, I beg you to pray for me, your weak and sinful servant and brother who is unworthy to admonish anyone but who loves our Coptic Church as a beggar loves the household of a rich and generous man who has adopted him and taken him in despite his sinfulness.
Update: Brothers and Sisters - those interested in working with me to safeguard the integrity and Orthodoxy of our Church, please send me a pm so that we can exchange emails. I have some things in the works but I need your help. Pray For Me.
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship by Robert Araraki
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship by Robert Araraki
Unfortunately, the opening description of the article is found in Coptic churches and this spirit of contemporary worship is invading the Coptic youth.
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship by Robert Araraki
Unfortunately, the opening description of the article is found in Coptic churches and this spirit of contemporary worship is invading the Coptic youth.
Unfortunately is right. This is precisely what we are striving against. May God preserve His Church.
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship by Robert Araraki
One point that is rarely looked at and which the author briefly mentions is the use of marketing analysis and business techniques to grow the mega Protestant synagogues, considering numbers as a sign of success and blessing, when it is just the natural outcome of an educated plan to start a successful business. A business will be always associated with compromise, no way around it.
Many Coptic churches in North America use the same business techniques now.
We tend to forget that the Lord has cleaned the jewish altar, precisely for this sin of turning the worship place into a business. It was a successful business and the priests were excellent managers. It does not seem that the Lord was too impressed by the numbers and / or the money flowing into the altar.
I have made the decision to attend coptic church and take communion but I worry about other christians protestants. That we judge them as not even having the Holy Spirit and ability to live righteously. But clearly that is false as there are good people who have self control and faithful marriages among them. I feel we are hurting them by making them feel complacent like they don't even have the ability to live righteously so why try? they are a great population of people! and I see no evidence that God has sent any successful laborers to them just like I never see God sending laborers for anything but alas perhaps He does and I am told that God does not need me and I am not a preacher who hears from God as the apostles did well I will not risk going to them because I can not keep shifting and doing decisions based on uncertainty. It was even uncertainty of me to choose to go to my church more often since I left it because there are those who say others can not be saved. I do not feel guided by the Holy Spirit. I make my decisions based on myself I feel God may want me to try to grow among them to help them and witness to the truth to myself (as I desire that the World accepts Jesus) and other orthodox if the grace of the Holy Spirit exists outside the church in abundance but alas I am weak and want to follow what I found worked before. I do not feel guided much and often have many worries.Even as I live among you perhaps some of you even hate me for loving other christians just as the levite passed his own fellow jew you say perhaps that you need to convert them to coptic orthodoxy. That you can't give moral support if they come to you until they convert. How are you helping people in any way. Well I think they do have the Holy Spirit and ability to live righteously and enough grace but perhaps there is something lacking of great importance. (Well I know I feel some peace straight after I take Holy Communion. I feel God is soothing my wounds and the pain in the flesh but it goes away and the possibility to sin is still there. My appearance may be altered a little from melancholy and rage to brightness and peace and illumninating thoughts and trust that God can help me rise if I choose to) I realise this bracket just confirms the need for people to take Holy Communion but maybe God only requires orthodox people to. I will talk about this at the end
It is quite blasphemous to assume otherwise (that they do not have much grace available to them)
Anyway I know I can not judge you according to my reading today. That instead of worrying about my own spiritual life I beat the male and female servants. Well thats the teaching I wanted to receive from my reading today. I have watched my words for this reason. I do not know if other christians need us or if they can stand on their own even if they have the enough grace available to them
I can see Holy Communion perhaps is important so I guess I would like to preach orthodoxy to those who are interested but I think I am just helping the lie that people can not live righteously so why try. It is a hard commitment to make perhaps to become orthodox. You have to lose all your friends people you were actually helping coming to God but now perhaps you are making them turn away. Anyway the effects of Holy Communion could be in my head.
How could God allow people to live in sin without taking Holy Communion? So people are excused for their sinful behaviour? even if it hurts other people? and they do not even know orthodoxy is truth!
May God forgive me for this post. It could be the devils work. I very badly wanted to delete it but thought that would be a greater devil work this time atleast to the copts but now I see it could hurt other christians which I love just as much. Shame on you devil when you try to make or make my religious pursuits destroy the masses (But I need to grow in knowledge do I not?) I am forced to be used by the devil this time.
I'm trying to track down a copy through my parish's bookstore. In the meantime, is there anyone on these boards who could translate the relevant passages? We really need to get the word out on this. The Coptic Church needs to speak with one consistent voice on this matter. Right now, some of the youth have the idea that the Church is a buffet: if you don't like Protestant songs, go to a more "traditional" Coptic Church, if you do, go to a more "casual" Coptic Church. What kind of message does this send to the youth?
I recenty started becoming a little more vocal regarding some of the things in our church, writing to the priests and bishops, speaking to them and asking them questions. I began writing some things for the youth, and I produced a video in response to some of the methods which we use to attract people into the church. This video started and uproar, and got me an audience with a few priests and our new diocesean Bishop. Needless to say, I, by the power of God, upheld my points, and intend to continue to be outspoken regarding manyof these issues.
A church had a new Hollywood themed service to bring youth into fellowship service and so I made This video. As which most cases in which someone's opinion is difficult to swallow, but is never the less difficult to battle head on, names are called. A few people from our church have called me and my friends extremists, and so, I decided to play on the term, and make into into the title of my videos.
Good God, save us, and help us. Indeed Protestantism is entering our church, and the Orthodoxy of our church is slowly, but surely being compromised. It has driven me greatly away from our church. I am looking for a new home at this time.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg164695#msg164695 date=1369109123] I produced a video in response to some of the methods which we use to attract people into the church. This video started and uproar, and got me an audience with a few priests and our new diocesean Bishop.
A church had a new Hollywood themed service to bring youth into fellowship service and so I made This video.
Are they both the same video?
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg164695#msg164695 date=1369109123] I am looking for a new home at this time.
Same video. I am trying different Coptic churches but I'm finding uniformity in the wrong. If I have to leave, I will though that is not my desire. After speaking with my Bishop, I can see that nothing in our diocese will be changing and that there is a push in the opposite direction of the church which I would like to see.
In any case, one must seek God and only Him. I love the coptic tradition but it saddens me that it has fallen into the ends of men and women whos idea of progression is stepping away from our wonderful history; people who care little for the preservation of our tradition which has preserved a deep spiritual love of God. Now, many are left dry.
Would you believe that a few of the clergy here found it fitting to tell their servants in a servants meeting that I am an extremist? It's this "us and them" mentality within the church that makes it increasingly unbearable.
Oh church of Origen, Athanasius, Cyril, Anthony, Pachom and Macarius, forgive us for not wearing your identity with pride. I worry that those men and women who died so that not the slightest change of faith might occur are being thrown of to the side. The coptic church in its perfection is wonderful, but it is deeply hidden now within very few Egyptian desert monasteries. As one moves geographicaly further from these centers of Orthodoxy, the faith dissolves for some reason. Here in North America, we suffer.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg164695#msg164695 date=1369109123] I recenty started becoming a little more vocal regarding some of the things in our church, writing to the priests and bishops, speaking to them and asking them questions. I began writing some things for the youth, and I produced a video in response to some of the methods which we use to attract people into the church. This video started and uproar, and got me an audience with a few priests and our new diocesean Bishop. Needless to say, I, by the power of God, upheld my points, and intend to continue to be outspoken regarding manyof these issues.
A church had a new Hollywood themed service to bring youth into fellowship service and so I made This video. As which most cases in which someone's opinion is difficult to swallow, but is never the less difficult to battle head on, names are called. A few people from our church have called me and my friends extremists, and so, I decided to play on the term, and make into into the title of my videos.
Good God, save us, and help us. Indeed Protestantism is entering our church, and the Orthodoxy of our church is slowly, but surely being compromised. It has driven me greatly away from our church. I am looking for a new home at this time.
Christians don't fear,
Ray
Why dont you try the British Orthodox Church? They are all devout Orthodox Christians and are ex-protestants. They understand the dangers of protestantism, its music, its spirituality, and shun it (from what i've seen!).
I'm not saying this to please you, but I totally agree with all your comments.
We've all seen this problem.
Some Church servants feel that our failure to employ cool songs and play guitars in our Church is seriously causing the youth to leave and go elsewhere.
TRUST ME if there was a BOC in the area, I'd go to an accent coach, get a british accent faster then you can say "Cherio!" But alas, the BOC is only in B lol.
Thanks for the support, and indeed, there is difficulties which we all face.
As long as the liturgy remains uncompromised, I don't see why you need to leave. And I don't think it will better the situation.
Perhaps you may find peace, but if you feel that the position you hold is the truth, you will have robbed people of that truth to lead a more comfortable life. It is your duty in my opinion to stay where you are. Your departure will not only weaken your friends', it will also send a message that what you preached could not have been the truth, because truth prevails.
You may also need to reflect on your position and determine if you are being too rigid. You must pick your battles wisely. There is a difference between incorrect practices that are essential to the faith and those that are peripheral.
Someone asked Abba Anthony, “What must one do in order to please God?” The old man replied, “Pay attention to what I tell you: whoever you may be, always have God before your eyes, whatever you do, do it according to the testimony of the holy Scriptures; in whatever place you live, do not easily leave it. Keep these three precepts and you will be saved.”
[quote author=qawe link=topic=10538.msg164697#msg164697 date=1369113345] Why not just a more traditional Coptic church?
That's the thing, there's one[i] Coptic Church...at least for now...and we either accept this stuff, or we don't.
I applaud Ray and I feel exactly the same way.
As Orthodox Christians, we have to speak with one voice on this...either we accept it, and compromise our Orthodoxy...or we stand against it, whatever the consequences may be. Either way, we're going to have a bit of a conflict on our hands. This being the case, we might as well stand up for Orthodoxy.
Sending the youth mixed messages about this simply means we'll have confused youth who think the Church is "Old Country Buffet".
Have you seen this video?
Light and darkness can't walk together. We're all united 100% at the chalice...so having one church that compromises the Orthodox Faith by taking on a form of pseudo-worship that is contrary to our ethos and phronima, while the Church in the next town upholds Orthodox Faith and practice, makes no sense.
Those of us who take the blessing of serving among the youth are not there to “keep ‘em in the pews at all costs” as if we were hucksters pushing a cosmic timeshare, but rather we are entrusted with a sacred charge to faithfully transmit to them the Light of the Orthodoxy – “right Faith” and “right praise and worship” – so that they and we might give a good account for all our works when we stand before Our Creator.
Ray, your video is not only clever and funny, but dead-on accurate! I made a similar point in the report I'm preparing for my bishop - The world will [i]always be better at producing pop music and marketing the lifestyle that goes with it, because these are things of the world. If a young person, or anyone else, is truly enamored of rock, pop, R&B, hip hop, or any form of secular music, eventually they will not be placated with a placebo or a pseudo-Christian derivative. Eventually, they are going to want the real thing and the ring and the coat that goes along with it, which is the antithesis of the sights, sounds, touch, smell, ring and garment offered by our Mother, the Church. To put our Mother in a position where she is feeding the youth with the things of the world is blasphemous. Rather, she should be inoculating them against the poisons and seductions of the world with the Apostolic teaching, “Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.” (1 St. John 2:15-17).
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=10538.msg164711#msg164711 date=1369160207] You may also need to reflect on your position and determine if you are being too rigid. You must pick your battles wisely. There is a difference between incorrect practices that are essential to the faith and those that are peripheral.
I agree that he should stay and fight the good fight. I'm struggling to do the same myself, but I must admit, it is hard.
I disagree, however, that this issue is "peripheral". Absolutely not. This cuts to the heart of our capital 'F' Faith...Orthodoxy.
Using these songs to entice wayward youth may at first seem harmless, until we realize that so-called “praise & worship” songs are actually nothing more than musical manifestations of Charismatic and Evangelical Protestant theology, contrary and alien to the Orthodox Tradition “once delivered for all the saints” (St. Jude 1:3). These songs are foreign to Orthodoxy not merely in terms of lyrical content, but more importantly, in terms of their approach to worship. This being the case, to endeavor to graft these songs onto the life of the Church is not only spiritually harmful, but also in violation of the Divine commandment to remain steadfast in Orthodox Faith and practice.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=10538.msg164711#msg164711 date=1369160207] As long as the liturgy remains uncompromised, I don't see why you need to leave. And I don't think it will better the situation.
Perhaps you may find peace, but if you feel that the position you hold is the truth, you will have robbed people of that truth to lead a more comfortable life. It is your duty in my opinion to stay where you are. Your departure will not only weaken your friends', it will also send a message that what you preached could not have been the truth, because truth prevails.
You may also need to reflect on your position and determine if you are being too rigid. You must pick your battles wisely. There is a difference between incorrect practices that are essential to the faith and those that are peripheral.
Someone asked Abba Anthony, “What must one do in order to please God?” The old man replied, “Pay attention to what I tell you: whoever you may be, always have God before your eyes, whatever you do, do it according to the testimony of the holy Scriptures; in whatever place you live, do not easily leave it. Keep these three precepts and you will be saved.”
(emphasis mine)
Andrew! Its good to hear from you after so long. I hope all is well :D
Liturgy extends outside the walls of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. In a real Orthodox Church, there is no such distinction between liturgical and non-liturgical. Since litrugy is the coming together of the faithful in God, all gathering of the faithful is thus liturgy. The life of the church (all of it) is liturgical. We are not compartmentalized, but we take all our spirituality from Divine Liturgy, and we make it into one life of the church. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. "The law of Prayer is the Law of Belief is the Law of Living." All those three; prayer, creed, and lifestyle are one and the same entity, and stem from the same source.
Rigidity is what made our church firm in its practice for centuries. I'm not rigid, but if I was, you would have to show how rigidity is a bad thing. Picking battles wisely doesn't work in the case of the church, since even the slightest hair follicle of a deviation must be violently opposed and pressed on. Cyril the Great was seen as being to rigid in his rejection of Christotokos (since St. Mary is indeed the Mother of Christ) but he noted that under the cover of the name "Christotokos" a world of heresy lay. So I do "pick my battles" not by virtue of what is wrong with a certain practice, but what philosophy that practice accepts. Accepting politics, and even Hollywood themes into our church seems very reductionist. It reduces everything to the lowest common denominator and tries to pass it as OK. "Whats wrong with Hollywood? People nicely dressed? You're being to Rigid!" "What is wrong with Politics? People speaking about how a land should be run? You're being to rigid!" "What is wrong with taking 1000 pictures of Holy Communion during Comunion? Do pictures steal your soul? Your being to Rigid." True Christians (Orthodox) are maximalists. They see everything in a total perspective. Hollywood bears an aroma of selfishness, and so rigidity against it is more than warranted. Likewise politics. Rigidity is no problem if done in love. One might call Christ rigid for flipping over tables of money changers. They were just people trying to feed their family after all.
I often wonder what we honestly believe about Christ flipping over tables. Was Christ trying to give us a message about what to allow into the Holy Church, or was he just in a bad mood that day, or did he really not like doves. lol
I wasn't referring the issue of praise in the church, but rather the Hollywood theme the video referred to.
RO,
I don't really want to get into a discussion about whether there is such a thing as peripheral issues in the church. I think there are. There are certain battles that may be important, but not essential. Being practical one cannot stand against every single wrong they see in the church.
Since you bring up the time our Lord turned over the money tables, ask yourself this: do you think that was the only thing He saw incorrect with the Temple? Do you think He spoke against all the error He saw? Maybe He did, the Bible certainly doesn't mention everything He did and said.
I believe He did not and was prudent in deciding what issues He needed to tackle head on, those which He needed to subtly disapprove of, those which He would teach against, and those even perhaps He would allow for the sake of the people's weakness.
In the end, we must pray and let our Lord decide for us what issues He wants us to speak against. We are His instruments for His use when He pleases.
I'm feeling a little bit of distaste from your side, but that is fine, and I hope you find a way to let that go. We can stop the discussion as you want, and I won't consider it an escape. I think there are no peripherals. I use scripture to assert that (Songs 2:15).
Further, I think Christ did indeed get meticulous with refuting everything in the temple. We know that he constantly rebuked the pharisees, and used many means to change the Jewish ideology of the time. Even if he did not speak against them himself, he certainly did plant the seed into his followers who then completed the mission. We know that in the Didache, we are told to fast Wednesdays and Fridays rather than Tuesdays and Thursdays like the Jews. Pretty meticulous if you ask me, and there is no care in this didache that the issue "might be peripheral." You may say as you like that Jesus allowed a lot of things to go, but this remains conjecture. Christ and his followers, through what I have read, were meticulous to the nth degree. Picking out everything, and getting rid of it.
I'm feeling a little bit of distaste from your side, but that is fine, and I hope you find a way to let that go. We can stop the discussion as you want, and I won't consider it an escape. I think there are no peripherals. I use scripture to assert that (Songs 2:15).
Further, I think Christ did indeed get meticulous with refuting everything in the temple. We know that he constantly rebuked the pharisees, and used many means to change the Jewish ideology of the time. Even if he did not speak against them himself, he certainly did plant the seed into his followers who then completed the mission. We know that in the Didache, we are told to fast Wednesdays and Fridays rather than Tuesdays and Thursdays like the Jews. Pretty meticulous if you ask me, and there is no care in this didache that the issue "might be peripheral." You may say as you like that Jesus allowed a lot of things to go, but this remains conjecture. Christ and his followers, through what I have read, were meticulous to the nth degree. Picking out everything, and getting rid of it.
God Bless you, Andrew
Ray
Not sure why you are feeling distaste. I am concerned about you, and think you are burdening yourself with unnecessary heartache. But that is not my judgment to make, which is why I advised praying for the Lord's will.
You are free to stand against anything you want, but having spoken with many older than me, who share your zeal, I have learned to pick battles. But this may just mean that I am weaker than you and they were also weak, unwilling to be criticized and outcasted, and tired of arguing.
In any case, I will share this parable:
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
[quote=Matthew 13:24-30, NKJV]24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
I like your video! One thing that I would love to see, are some more PRACTICAL steps/solutions.
On a side note, there's new trend that's sweeping most parishes... light bulbs instead of candles while reading the Gospel... The point of candles isn't just the light they provide, but moreover the mystical sacrifice involved. That's why in our liturgical services we use things that perish (candles, oil, bread, etc.)- the point being that ONLY Christ is eternal, everything else perishes. One of my friends makes of a point of lighting candles and holding them during the Gospel reading, even though the bulbs are on. People started asking why he was still holding the candles?
People simply lack knowledge... Things began to slowly change... slowly
But I think that ultimately, all 'problems' rests on our participation in the Liturgy; I mean a 'genuine' participation!
Think about it, if we believe that during the Liturgy the Church becomes heaven, then we turn around and 1/3 of the deacons are either on the their phones, talking, disengaged, and the other third are more worried about the hymn that we missed rather than the missing Spirit of Prayer; then Heaven after all isn't that appealing
The Eucharist is being tragically reduced from being "the center of Christian life", to an aspect of 'church life'.
We begin with the Liturgy! If the Liturgy becomes the true Sacrament of Christ's Presence, then everything else is bound to shape itself!
In the words of the great Alexander Schmemann:
"I am convinced that the question of lay participation in the Divine Mysteries is indeed the key question of our Church life. It is upon the solution of that question that the future of the Church- her genuine renewal or her inevitable decay- ultimately depends."
Comments
AntoniousNikolas and Severian!
I am really excited to see what you guys come up with! Its really encouraging to see people so proactive and dedicated to patristics!
:)
AMEN! I do not know much and I am not capable of much, but if there is anyway I can help I would be more than happy to do so. Please keep us up to date!
Once some sort of formal writing is produced, it will be great to have people help spread the word. In the meantime, please pray for our weakness. Pray for the success of this service, that we are able to accomplish it in love and humility and not hurt anyone, engender animosity in them, or have anyone "take it personally" when it is not personal at all but simply a matter of Orthodox Faith and practice. Please pray that God strengthens the clergy, servants, and youth of our Church, grounds them in Orthodoxy, gives them clarity, and helps them to recognize the snares of the enemy. Please pray that God gives us a good shepherd who takes a strong stand on this issue as H.H. Pope Shenouda did, and that the bishops and priests, who have so much to occupy their attention, will also recognize this danger and address it.
On a personal note, I beg you to pray for me, your weak and sinful servant and brother who is unworthy to admonish anyone but who loves our Coptic Church as a beggar loves the household of a rich and generous man who has adopted him and taken him in despite his sinfulness.
Your Servant,
AN
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship
by Robert Araraki
http://orthodoxbridge.com/orthodox-worship-versus-contemporary-worship/
Ekhristos Anesti!
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship
by Robert Araraki
http://orthodoxbridge.com/orthodox-worship-versus-contemporary-worship/
Unfortunately, the opening description of the article is found in Coptic churches and this spirit of contemporary worship is invading the Coptic youth.
[quote author=AntoniousNikolas link=topic=10538.msg164609#msg164609 date=1368633887]
Ekhristos Anesti!
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship
by Robert Araraki
http://orthodoxbridge.com/orthodox-worship-versus-contemporary-worship/
Unfortunately, the opening description of the article is found in Coptic churches and this spirit of contemporary worship is invading the Coptic youth.
Unfortunately is right. This is precisely what we are striving against. May God preserve His Church.
Ekhristos Anesti!
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
I just wanted to give you an update: we have not forgotten our project regarding this subject. We are working hard on it, and God is blessing our efforts. Stay encouraged.
In the meantime, I would like to share with you an excellent article I found on this subject.
Pray for Me, Your Servant,
A.N.
Orthodox Worship Versus Contemporary Worship
by Robert Araraki
http://orthodoxbridge.com/orthodox-worship-versus-contemporary-worship/
A very good article. Thank you.
One point that is rarely looked at and which the author briefly mentions is the use of marketing analysis and business techniques to grow the mega Protestant synagogues, considering numbers as a sign of success and blessing, when it is just the natural outcome of an educated plan to start a successful business. A business will be always associated with compromise, no way around it.
Many Coptic churches in North America use the same business techniques now.
We tend to forget that the Lord has cleaned the jewish altar, precisely for this sin of turning the worship place into a business. It was a successful business and the priests were excellent managers. It does not seem that the Lord was too impressed by the numbers and / or the money flowing into the altar.
Esfuchs !
I feel we are hurting them by making them feel complacent like they don't even have the ability to live righteously so why try? they are a great population of people! and I see no evidence that God has sent any successful laborers to them just like I never see God sending laborers for anything but alas perhaps He does and I am told that God does not need me and I am not a preacher who hears from God as the apostles did well I will not risk going to them because I can not keep shifting and doing decisions based on uncertainty. It was even uncertainty of me to choose to go to my church more often since I left it because there are those who say others can not be saved. I do not feel guided by the Holy Spirit. I make my decisions based on myself I feel God may want me to try to grow among them to help them and witness to the truth to myself (as I desire that the World accepts Jesus) and other orthodox if the grace of the Holy Spirit exists outside the church in abundance but alas I am weak and want to follow what I found worked before. I do not feel guided much and often have many worries.Even as I live among you perhaps some of you even hate me for loving other christians just as the levite passed his own fellow jew you say perhaps that you need to convert them to coptic orthodoxy. That you can't give moral support if they come to you until they convert. How are you helping people in any way. Well I think they do have the Holy Spirit and ability to live righteously and enough grace but perhaps there is something lacking of great importance. (Well I know I feel some peace straight after I take Holy Communion. I feel God is soothing my wounds and the pain in the flesh but it goes away and the possibility to sin is still there. My appearance may be altered a little from melancholy and rage to brightness and peace and illumninating thoughts and trust that God can help me rise if I choose to)
I realise this bracket just confirms the need for people to take Holy Communion but maybe God only requires orthodox people to. I will talk about this at the end
It is quite blasphemous to assume otherwise (that they do not have much grace available to them)
Anyway I know I can not judge you according to my reading today.
That instead of worrying about my own spiritual life I beat the male and female servants. Well thats the teaching I wanted to receive from my reading today. I have watched my words for this reason.
I do not know if other christians need us or if they can stand on their own even if they have the enough grace available to them
I can see Holy Communion perhaps is important so I guess I would like to preach orthodoxy to those who are interested but I think I am just helping the lie that people can not live righteously so why try. It is a hard commitment to make perhaps to become orthodox. You have to lose all your friends people you were actually helping coming to God but now perhaps you are making them turn away. Anyway the effects of Holy Communion could be in my head.
How could God allow people to live in sin without taking Holy Communion? So people are excused for their sinful behaviour? even if it hurts other people? and they do not even know orthodoxy is truth!
May God forgive me for this post. It could be the devils work. I very badly wanted to delete it but thought that would be a greater devil work this time atleast to the copts but now I see it could hurt other christians which I love just as much. Shame on you devil when you try to make or make my religious pursuits destroy the masses (But I need to grow in knowledge do I not?) I am forced to be used by the devil this time.
Check this out:
http://www.arabwestreport.info/year-2012/week-12/43-ecumenical-relations-coptic-orthodox-church-mentioned-decisions-holy-synod
In June 2005 under the subject of "Facing protestant teaching"
The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has declared:
"No Protestant chorals (singing) and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches"
This needs to be more widely publicized and the bishops and priests need to enforce it.
Dear Brothers,
Check this out:
http://www.arabwestreport.info/year-2012/week-12/43-ecumenical-relations-coptic-orthodox-church-mentioned-decisions-holy-synod
In June 2005 under the subject of "Facing protestant teaching"
The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has declared:
"No Protestant chorals (singing) and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches"
This needs to be more widely publicized and the bishops and priests need to enforce it.
Wow, I would love a copy of the book from which this summary was made in English. Can someone translate it?!
[quote author=AntoniousNikolas link=topic=10538.msg164650#msg164650 date=1368913341]
Dear Brothers,
Check this out:
http://www.arabwestreport.info/year-2012/week-12/43-ecumenical-relations-coptic-orthodox-church-mentioned-decisions-holy-synod
In June 2005 under the subject of "Facing protestant teaching"
The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has declared:
"No Protestant chorals (singing) and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches"
This needs to be more widely publicized and the bishops and priests need to enforce it.
Wow, I would love a copy of the book from which this summary was made in English. Can someone translate it?!
I second that!
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=10538.msg164666#msg164666 date=1369007280]
[quote author=AntoniousNikolas link=topic=10538.msg164650#msg164650 date=1368913341]
Dear Brothers,
Check this out:
http://www.arabwestreport.info/year-2012/week-12/43-ecumenical-relations-coptic-orthodox-church-mentioned-decisions-holy-synod
In June 2005 under the subject of "Facing protestant teaching"
The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has declared:
"No Protestant chorals (singing) and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches"
This needs to be more widely publicized and the bishops and priests need to enforce it.
Wow, I would love a copy of the book from which this summary was made in English. Can someone translate it?!
I second that!
Same here.
A church had a new Hollywood themed service to bring youth into fellowship service and so I made This video. As which most cases in which someone's opinion is difficult to swallow, but is never the less difficult to battle head on, names are called. A few people from our church have called me and my friends extremists, and so, I decided to play on the term, and make into into the title of my videos.
Good God, save us, and help us. Indeed Protestantism is entering our church, and the Orthodoxy of our church is slowly, but surely being compromised. It has driven me greatly away from our church. I am looking for a new home at this time.
Christians don't fear,
Ray
I produced a video in response to some of the methods which we use to attract people into the church. This video started and uproar, and got me an audience with a few priests and our new diocesean Bishop.
A church had a new Hollywood themed service to bring youth into fellowship service and so I made This video.
Are they both the same video?
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg164695#msg164695 date=1369109123]
I am looking for a new home at this time.
Why not just a more traditional Coptic church?
In any case, one must seek God and only Him. I love the coptic tradition but it saddens me that it has fallen into the ends of men and women whos idea of progression is stepping away from our wonderful history; people who care little for the preservation of our tradition which has preserved a deep spiritual love of God. Now, many are left dry.
Would you believe that a few of the clergy here found it fitting to tell their servants in a servants meeting that I am an extremist? It's this "us and them" mentality within the church that makes it increasingly unbearable.
Oh church of Origen, Athanasius, Cyril, Anthony, Pachom and Macarius, forgive us for not wearing your identity with pride. I worry that those men and women who died so that not the slightest change of faith might occur are being thrown of to the side. The coptic church in its perfection is wonderful, but it is deeply hidden now within very few Egyptian desert monasteries. As one moves geographicaly further from these centers of Orthodoxy, the faith dissolves for some reason. Here in North America, we suffer.
Kirie Eleison
Ray
I recenty started becoming a little more vocal regarding some of the things in our church, writing to the priests and bishops, speaking to them and asking them questions. I began writing some things for the youth, and I produced a video in response to some of the methods which we use to attract people into the church. This video started and uproar, and got me an audience with a few priests and our new diocesean Bishop. Needless to say, I, by the power of God, upheld my points, and intend to continue to be outspoken regarding manyof these issues.
A church had a new Hollywood themed service to bring youth into fellowship service and so I made This video. As which most cases in which someone's opinion is difficult to swallow, but is never the less difficult to battle head on, names are called. A few people from our church have called me and my friends extremists, and so, I decided to play on the term, and make into into the title of my videos.
Good God, save us, and help us. Indeed Protestantism is entering our church, and the Orthodoxy of our church is slowly, but surely being compromised. It has driven me greatly away from our church. I am looking for a new home at this time.
Christians don't fear,
Ray
Why dont you try the British Orthodox Church? They are all devout Orthodox Christians and are ex-protestants. They understand the dangers of protestantism, its music, its spirituality, and shun it (from what i've seen!).
I'm not saying this to please you, but I totally agree with all your comments.
We've all seen this problem.
Some Church servants feel that our failure to employ cool songs and play guitars in our Church is seriously causing the youth to leave and go elsewhere.
That to me is the problem.
TRUST ME if there was a BOC in the area, I'd go to an accent coach, get a british accent faster then you can say "Cherio!" But alas, the BOC is only in B lol.
Thanks for the support, and indeed, there is difficulties which we all face.
Kirie Eleison
Ray
Perhaps you may find peace, but if you feel that the position you hold is the truth, you will have robbed people of that truth to lead a more comfortable life. It is your duty in my opinion to stay where you are. Your departure will not only weaken your friends', it will also send a message that what you preached could not have been the truth, because truth prevails.
You may also need to reflect on your position and determine if you are being too rigid. You must pick your battles wisely. There is a difference between incorrect practices that are essential to the faith and those that are peripheral. (emphasis mine)
Why not just a more traditional Coptic church?
That's the thing, there's one[i] Coptic Church...at least for now...and we either accept this stuff, or we don't.
I applaud Ray and I feel exactly the same way.
As Orthodox Christians, we have to speak with one voice on this...either we accept it, and compromise our Orthodoxy...or we stand against it, whatever the consequences may be. Either way, we're going to have a bit of a conflict on our hands. This being the case, we might as well stand up for Orthodoxy.
Sending the youth mixed messages about this simply means we'll have confused youth who think the Church is "Old Country Buffet".
Have you seen this video?
Light and darkness can't walk together. We're all united 100% at the chalice...so having one church that compromises the Orthodox Faith by taking on a form of pseudo-worship that is contrary to our ethos and phronima, while the Church in the next town upholds Orthodox Faith and practice, makes no sense.
Those of us who take the blessing of serving among the youth are not there to “keep ‘em in the pews at all costs” as if we were hucksters pushing a cosmic timeshare, but rather we are entrusted with a sacred charge to faithfully transmit to them the Light of the Orthodoxy – “right Faith” and “right praise and worship” – so that they and we might give a good account for all our works when we stand before Our Creator.
Ray, your video is not only clever and funny, but dead-on accurate! I made a similar point in the report I'm preparing for my bishop - The world will [i]always be better at producing pop music and marketing the lifestyle that goes with it, because these are things of the world. If a young person, or anyone else, is truly enamored of rock, pop, R&B, hip hop, or any form of secular music, eventually they will not be placated with a placebo or a pseudo-Christian derivative. Eventually, they are going to want the real thing and the ring and the coat that goes along with it, which is the antithesis of the sights, sounds, touch, smell, ring and garment offered by our Mother, the Church. To put our Mother in a position where she is feeding the youth with the things of the world is blasphemous. Rather, she should be inoculating them against the poisons and seductions of the world with the Apostolic teaching, “Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.” (1 St. John 2:15-17).
You may also need to reflect on your position and determine if you are being too rigid. You must pick your battles wisely. There is a difference between incorrect practices that are essential to the faith and those that are peripheral.
I agree that he should stay and fight the good fight. I'm struggling to do the same myself, but I must admit, it is hard.
I disagree, however, that this issue is "peripheral". Absolutely not. This cuts to the heart of our capital 'F' Faith...Orthodoxy.
Using these songs to entice wayward youth may at first seem harmless, until we realize that so-called “praise & worship” songs are actually nothing more than musical manifestations of Charismatic and Evangelical Protestant theology, contrary and alien to the Orthodox Tradition “once delivered for all the saints” (St. Jude 1:3). These songs are foreign to Orthodoxy not merely in terms of lyrical content, but more importantly, in terms of their approach to worship. This being the case, to endeavor to graft these songs onto the life of the Church is not only spiritually harmful, but also in violation of the Divine commandment to remain steadfast in Orthodox Faith and practice.
As long as the liturgy remains uncompromised, I don't see why you need to leave. And I don't think it will better the situation.
Perhaps you may find peace, but if you feel that the position you hold is the truth, you will have robbed people of that truth to lead a more comfortable life. It is your duty in my opinion to stay where you are. Your departure will not only weaken your friends', it will also send a message that what you preached could not have been the truth, because truth prevails.
You may also need to reflect on your position and determine if you are being too rigid. You must pick your battles wisely. There is a difference between incorrect practices that are essential to the faith and those that are peripheral. (emphasis mine)
Andrew! Its good to hear from you after so long. I hope all is well :D
Liturgy extends outside the walls of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. In a real Orthodox Church, there is no such distinction between liturgical and non-liturgical. Since litrugy is the coming together of the faithful in God, all gathering of the faithful is thus liturgy. The life of the church (all of it) is liturgical. We are not compartmentalized, but we take all our spirituality from Divine Liturgy, and we make it into one life of the church. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. "The law of Prayer is the Law of Belief is the Law of Living." All those three; prayer, creed, and lifestyle are one and the same entity, and stem from the same source.
Rigidity is what made our church firm in its practice for centuries. I'm not rigid, but if I was, you would have to show how rigidity is a bad thing. Picking battles wisely doesn't work in the case of the church, since even the slightest hair follicle of a deviation must be violently opposed and pressed on. Cyril the Great was seen as being to rigid in his rejection of Christotokos (since St. Mary is indeed the Mother of Christ) but he noted that under the cover of the name "Christotokos" a world of heresy lay. So I do "pick my battles" not by virtue of what is wrong with a certain practice, but what philosophy that practice accepts. Accepting politics, and even Hollywood themes into our church seems very reductionist. It reduces everything to the lowest common denominator and tries to pass it as OK. "Whats wrong with Hollywood? People nicely dressed? You're being to Rigid!" "What is wrong with Politics? People speaking about how a land should be run? You're being to rigid!" "What is wrong with taking 1000 pictures of Holy Communion during Comunion? Do pictures steal your soul? Your being to Rigid." True Christians (Orthodox) are maximalists. They see everything in a total perspective. Hollywood bears an aroma of selfishness, and so rigidity against it is more than warranted. Likewise politics. Rigidity is no problem if done in love. One might call Christ rigid for flipping over tables of money changers. They were just people trying to feed their family after all.
I often wonder what we honestly believe about Christ flipping over tables. Was Christ trying to give us a message about what to allow into the Holy Church, or was he just in a bad mood that day, or did he really not like doves. lol
There are no peripheral issues. (Songs 2:15)
Thanks AntoniosNikolas :D I totally agree
Ray
I wasn't referring the issue of praise in the church, but rather the Hollywood theme the video referred to.
RO,
I don't really want to get into a discussion about whether there is such a thing as peripheral issues in the church. I think there are. There are certain battles that may be important, but not essential. Being practical one cannot stand against every single wrong they see in the church.
Since you bring up the time our Lord turned over the money tables, ask yourself this: do you think that was the only thing He saw incorrect with the Temple? Do you think He spoke against all the error He saw? Maybe He did, the Bible certainly doesn't mention everything He did and said.
I believe He did not and was prudent in deciding what issues He needed to tackle head on, those which He needed to subtly disapprove of, those which He would teach against, and those even perhaps He would allow for the sake of the people's weakness.
In the end, we must pray and let our Lord decide for us what issues He wants us to speak against. We are His instruments for His use when He pleases.
I'm feeling a little bit of distaste from your side, but that is fine, and I hope you find a way to let that go. We can stop the discussion as you want, and I won't consider it an escape. I think there are no peripherals. I use scripture to assert that (Songs 2:15).
Further, I think Christ did indeed get meticulous with refuting everything in the temple. We know that he constantly rebuked the pharisees, and used many means to change the Jewish ideology of the time. Even if he did not speak against them himself, he certainly did plant the seed into his followers who then completed the mission. We know that in the Didache, we are told to fast Wednesdays and Fridays rather than Tuesdays and Thursdays like the Jews. Pretty meticulous if you ask me, and there is no care in this didache that the issue "might be peripheral." You may say as you like that Jesus allowed a lot of things to go, but this remains conjecture. Christ and his followers, through what I have read, were meticulous to the nth degree. Picking out everything, and getting rid of it.
God Bless you, Andrew
Ray
Agape, Andrew,
I'm feeling a little bit of distaste from your side, but that is fine, and I hope you find a way to let that go. We can stop the discussion as you want, and I won't consider it an escape. I think there are no peripherals. I use scripture to assert that (Songs 2:15).
Further, I think Christ did indeed get meticulous with refuting everything in the temple. We know that he constantly rebuked the pharisees, and used many means to change the Jewish ideology of the time. Even if he did not speak against them himself, he certainly did plant the seed into his followers who then completed the mission. We know that in the Didache, we are told to fast Wednesdays and Fridays rather than Tuesdays and Thursdays like the Jews. Pretty meticulous if you ask me, and there is no care in this didache that the issue "might be peripheral." You may say as you like that Jesus allowed a lot of things to go, but this remains conjecture. Christ and his followers, through what I have read, were meticulous to the nth degree. Picking out everything, and getting rid of it.
God Bless you, Andrew
Ray
Not sure why you are feeling distaste. I am concerned about you, and think you are burdening yourself with unnecessary heartache. But that is not my judgment to make, which is why I advised praying for the Lord's will.
You are free to stand against anything you want, but having spoken with many older than me, who share your zeal, I have learned to pick battles. But this may just mean that I am weaker than you and they were also weak, unwilling to be criticized and outcasted, and tired of arguing.
In any case, I will share this parable:
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
[quote=Matthew 13:24-30, NKJV]24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Take from it what you will.
With love (not distaste!),
Andrew
Ray
I like your video! One thing that I would love to see, are some more PRACTICAL steps/solutions.
On a side note, there's new trend that's sweeping most parishes... light bulbs instead of candles while reading the Gospel... The point of candles isn't just the light they provide, but moreover the mystical sacrifice involved. That's why in our liturgical services we use things that perish (candles, oil, bread, etc.)- the point being that ONLY Christ is eternal, everything else perishes. One of my friends makes of a point of lighting candles and holding them during the Gospel reading, even though the bulbs are on. People started asking why he was still holding the candles?
People simply lack knowledge... Things began to slowly change... slowly
But I think that ultimately, all 'problems' rests on our participation in the Liturgy; I mean a 'genuine' participation!
Think about it, if we believe that during the Liturgy the Church becomes heaven, then we turn around and 1/3 of the deacons are either on the their phones, talking, disengaged, and the other third are more worried about the hymn that we missed rather than the missing Spirit of Prayer; then Heaven after all isn't that appealing
The Eucharist is being tragically reduced from being "the center of Christian life", to an aspect of 'church life'.
We begin with the Liturgy! If the Liturgy becomes the true Sacrament of Christ's Presence, then everything else is bound to shape itself!
In the words of the great Alexander Schmemann:
"I am convinced that the question of lay participation in the Divine Mysteries is indeed the key question of our Church life. It is upon the solution of that question that the future of the Church- her genuine renewal or her inevitable decay- ultimately depends."