If I understood correct there are two Oriental Churches in India state Kerala. One is Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Baselios Mar Thomas Paulose II) and the second is Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Baselios Thomas I).
Are both of these churches in communion with His Hollines Pope Tawadros II?
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13966.msg162182#msg162182 date=1356390335] What Coptic Church thinks about Origen ? We, Dyophysites, in VI century rejected some of his teachings. But it was after Chalcedon, so does anybody knows the Coptic Church position about Origen ?
Hello Servos,
The Coptic Church pretty much had a condemnation of Origen long before the council of Constantinople in 553. This started with Pope St. Theophilus (St. Cyril's uncle and predecessor) who along with the Tall Brothers also lead a campaign to condemn Origenism, which garnered support from St. Jerome at the time.
I think a lot of debate has resurfaced today in thinking whether or not Origen actually believed some of the things attributed to him, or whether it was people who claimed to be his disciple. The Coptic Church however has as saints St. Didymus the Blind and St. Evagrius Ponticus (St. Didymus for sure, but St. Evagrius I think; if not Copts, at least Armenians have him as saint). However, Origen is highly respected, but not revered as saint, and certainly some of the things described as "Origenism" is also condemned by the Coptic Church. You will even find that St. Dioscorus and St. Shenoute the Archmandrite were communicating with each other on fighting the Origenist monks who seem to be spreading such doctrines in the monastic areas.
I would venture to say that it's probably because of the Coptic Church that the Justinian the Emperor added those anathemas against Origen.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13966.msg163943#msg163943 date=1364117037] If I understood correct there are two Oriental Churches in India state Kerala. One is Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Baselios Mar Thomas Paulose II) and the second is Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Baselios Thomas I).
Are both of these churches in communion with His Hollines Pope Tawadros II?
By practice, Coptic bishops have never chosen sides (even HG Bishop David, who before was ambivalent about the Malankara Orthodox, have now shown that he shares with them communion). We have maintained communion with both Indian churches, and we hope that this schism is resolved.
At the same time, the Coptic Popacy (both HH the late Pope Shenouda, and perhaps also HH Pope Tawadros) is usually quite silent about the issue, so as not to offend the sister Syrian Church, who we have maintained very close relationships with, closer than any other sister Church might I add, throughout the centuries.
Does some Oriental Orthodox Churches celebrates Easter according to new Calendar?!
As far as I know, the Malankara Church also celebrates the Nativity on Dec 25, so they seem to be following the modern calendar used by Catholics.
This is off topic: To be quite honest, the Catholics and Orthodox MUST unite major Feasts. I think it's essential for Church unity and probably the first step to something greater. I believe Pope Tawadros and Pope Francis are both very humble people, so I hope they can work something out. P.S. The Orthodox calendar is better :D
Both Indian churches and the Armenian church go by the New Calendar, even for Easter. I'm not sure about the Syrian church. The Coptic, Ethiopian, and Eritrean churches follow the Old Calendar, even when it comes to the Nativity.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13966.msg163964#msg163964 date=1364174099] When Coptic Church celebrates the Feast of the Resurrection of the Lord (Easter) in 2013 by western Calendar?
[quote author=caji link=topic=13966.msg163961#msg163961 date=1364172773] To be quite honest, the Catholics and Orthodox MUST unite major Feasts. I think it's essential for Church unity and probably the first step to something greater.
You see that we Orthodox have different calendars. We can not between us to agree when to celebrate Easter and Christmass. :)
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13966.msg163987#msg163987 date=1364302961] [quote author=caji link=topic=13966.msg163961#msg163961 date=1364172773] To be quite honest, the Catholics and Orthodox MUST unite major Feasts. I think it's essential for Church unity and probably the first step to something greater.
You see that we Orthodox have different calendars. We can not between us to agree when to celebrate Easter and Christmass. :) Indeed...we should worry about uniting our major feasts between Orthodox before worrying about Catholics. But at the same time, we should commend ourselves for not making it a divisive issue either.
How often do take Communion Coptic believers who attend the Liturgy every Sunday and fasting all fasts?
In Serbia we have two practice. One part of believers take Communion every Sunday. Second part take Communion only in fasting periods. If they want to take Communion in non-fasting period they fast one week before taking Communion.
What is practice in Coptic and other Oriental Orthodox Churches?
most people take communion every sunday, or every time they attend liturgy (quite a lot of people make in on average every 2 weeks, due to traveling long distances, work, difficultly finding a good alarm clock ;) etc.) because we go up to the front for Holy Communion (and only rarely people go up for a blessing and not for Holy Communion), you can see that there are very few people left standing in church during that time who do not go up. we just have to keep the fasts our priest says to (ill people and very young or very old don't fast very much) so during this time of not fasting, we just have to abstain from food and water (and marital relations) for 9 hours before Holy Communion and to have been to confession recently (usually this means in the last month). of course, we should also prepare by repenting of our sins the day before and during the liturgy and by praying and having a relationship with God.
Just one clarification, you said: [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164660#msg164660 date=1368998534] we just have to keep the fasts our priest says to
Did you mean to keep the fast Church says to? Or priests?
In Serbia we have 4 big fasts and every Wedensday and Friday.
we have the same fasts, but if someone is a new convert, or still in school, or has medical conditions (like some bowel problems where too much beans will give you pain or even a bad infection) then they fast differently. like a teenager who is growing fast might give up meat but still eat dairy.
most people fast from all animal products during great lent (ours is 55 days) and ninevah's fast (3 days - originated in syria), and fast from animal products except fish during saint mary's fast, the nativity fast (Christmas) and the apostle's fast. we also fast from all animal products wednesdays and fridays (except the 50 days after Pascha where we don't do any fasting except the 9 hours before Holy Communion).
we fast 9 hours before Holy Communion instead of 6, although usually as it is in the morning, it doesn't make any difference if it is 9 or 6 hours as we fast from midnight anyway. i suppose the only difference is that if Holy Communion happens really early, like at 7.30am after a 6am liturgy, then we would fast from 10.30pm the night before. even then, if you are getting up at 5am or earlier to get to church, you should probably (for health reasons!) sleep by 10.30pm, so the extra fasting is no big deal.
may God bless u as u celebrate with us the Holy 50 days until pentecost :)
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225] we have the same fasts, but if someone is a new convert, or still in school, or has medical conditions then they fast differently.
The same here. Too young, too old and ill people do not fast full fast or do not fast at all and take Communion regulary. Pregnant women also do not fast and take Communion normaly.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225] during great lent (ours is 55 days)
Our Great Lent is 48 days. Any idea why we have a week less? Or why you have a week more?
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225] we fast 9 hours before Holy Communion
We fast from the midnight no matter when the Liturgy starts in the morning. Liturgy usually starts at 8:00, 9:00 or 10:00am, depending from Diocese.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225] may God bless u as u celebrate with us the Holy 50 days until pentecost :)
Our Great Lent is 48 days. Any idea why we have a week less? Or why you have a week more?
Actually, I think both your church and our Church fast 55 days, but we have different fasting rules. You have something called "Cheesefare Week". In the Coptic Church, the first week, according to a medieval Coptic set of traditions by Awlad al Assal is called "Heraclius' week", which is a preparation week. We fast fully Lenten during that week, no different from the rest of the 48 days. But from what I understand, your Church can have cheese and milk that week. Is this true for the Serbian Church?
[quote author=minasoliman link=topic=13966.msg164690#msg164690 date=1369096751] Actually, I think both your church and our Church fast 55 days, but we have different fasting rules. You have something called "Cheesefare Week". In the Coptic Church, the first week, according to a medieval Coptic set of traditions by Awlad al Assal is called "Heraclius' week", which is a preparation week. We fast fully Lenten during that week, no different from the rest of the 48 days. But from what I understand, your Church can have cheese and milk that week. Is this true for the Serbian Church?
Oh yes! Preparation weeks. Bravo!
Meat-Fare week (we do not eat meat any more, and with this week we are the same in day numbers of Great Lent, but we can eat milk and cheese)
Cheese-Fare week is already first week of Great Lent (strict fasting, no oil)
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13966.msg165031#msg165031 date=1370907232] [quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225] we have the same fasts
I read that this fast is established in Serbian Church in 13th century. Do you have that one fast also?
Yes we do have this fast and the feast is fixed on August 22nd. The rules for this fast are the same as the Nativity and Apostle's fast which consist of no meat or dairy, and no fish on wednesdays or fridays.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=13966.msg165035#msg165035 date=1370917960] and the feast is fixed on August 22nd. The rules for this fast are the same as the Nativity and Apostle's fast which consist of no meat or dairy, and no fish on wednesdays or fridays.
I use it quite often. As far as I know, it is update often but I'm not sure the number of bishops is accurate. I think some are repeated but given a second number.
Do heads of Churches in communion with Coptic Patriarchate have some synaxis (council, meeting) from time to time? Coptic, Armenian, Malankara, Syriac, Ethiopian... Did all of the patriarchs served the Liturgy together in last decades?
Can someone explain me are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Paulose II) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Thomas I) in communion with Coptic Church? If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?
it is a very long story. basically there were different times when people became Christians in india. some ended up following rome, and others were orthodox. then some of them switched from one group to another and then back, and we ended up with lots of groups.
they are supposed to be united, but had some problems arguing over property (how sad!)
the coptic church is in communion with both groups, but they have not yet sorted out their problem with each other (i pray God will give them grace and peace to do so soon, and may He forgive all of us who argue and fight over unimportant things).
Comments
One is Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Baselios Mar Thomas Paulose II) and the second is Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Baselios Thomas I).
Are both of these churches in communion with His Hollines Pope Tawadros II?
What Coptic Church thinks about Origen ?
We, Dyophysites, in VI century rejected some of his teachings.
But it was after Chalcedon, so does anybody knows the Coptic Church position about Origen ?
Hello Servos,
The Coptic Church pretty much had a condemnation of Origen long before the council of Constantinople in 553. This started with Pope St. Theophilus (St. Cyril's uncle and predecessor) who along with the Tall Brothers also lead a campaign to condemn Origenism, which garnered support from St. Jerome at the time.
I think a lot of debate has resurfaced today in thinking whether or not Origen actually believed some of the things attributed to him, or whether it was people who claimed to be his disciple. The Coptic Church however has as saints St. Didymus the Blind and St. Evagrius Ponticus (St. Didymus for sure, but St. Evagrius I think; if not Copts, at least Armenians have him as saint). However, Origen is highly respected, but not revered as saint, and certainly some of the things described as "Origenism" is also condemned by the Coptic Church. You will even find that St. Dioscorus and St. Shenoute the Archmandrite were communicating with each other on fighting the Origenist monks who seem to be spreading such doctrines in the monastic areas.
I would venture to say that it's probably because of the Coptic Church that the Justinian the Emperor added those anathemas against Origen.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13966.msg163943#msg163943 date=1364117037]
If I understood correct there are two Oriental Churches in India state Kerala.
One is Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (Baselios Mar Thomas Paulose II) and the second is Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (Baselios Thomas I).
Are both of these churches in communion with His Hollines Pope Tawadros II?
By practice, Coptic bishops have never chosen sides (even HG Bishop David, who before was ambivalent about the Malankara Orthodox, have now shown that he shares with them communion). We have maintained communion with both Indian churches, and we hope that this schism is resolved.
At the same time, the Coptic Popacy (both HH the late Pope Shenouda, and perhaps also HH Pope Tawadros) is usually quite silent about the issue, so as not to offend the sister Syrian Church, who we have maintained very close relationships with, closer than any other sister Church might I add, throughout the centuries.
Today Malankara Church (Baselios Mar Thomas Paulose II) on their Youtube channel posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu_KBpiSMFU
Palm Sunday celebration
Does some Oriental Orthodox Churches celebrates Easter according to new Calendar?!
Thank you Minasoliman.
Today Malankara Church (Baselios Mar Thomas Paulose II) on their Youtube channel posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu_KBpiSMFU
Palm Sunday celebration
Does some Oriental Orthodox Churches celebrates Easter according to new Calendar?!
As far as I know, the Malankara Church also celebrates the Nativity on Dec 25, so they seem to be following the modern calendar used by Catholics.
This is off topic: To be quite honest, the Catholics and Orthodox MUST unite major Feasts. I think it's essential for Church unity and probably the first step to something greater. I believe Pope Tawadros and Pope Francis are both very humble people, so I hope they can work something out.
P.S. The Orthodox calendar is better :D
Pray for me
In Serbia we celebrate it at May 5th 2013.
When Coptic Church celebrates the Feast of the Resurrection of the Lord (Easter) in 2013 by western Calendar?
In Serbia we celebrate it at May 5th 2013.
Same here!!
To be quite honest, the Catholics and Orthodox MUST unite major Feasts. I think it's essential for Church unity and probably the first step to something greater.
You see that we Orthodox have different calendars. We can not between us to agree when to celebrate Easter and Christmass. :)
[quote author=caji link=topic=13966.msg163961#msg163961 date=1364172773]
To be quite honest, the Catholics and Orthodox MUST unite major Feasts. I think it's essential for Church unity and probably the first step to something greater.
You see that we Orthodox have different calendars. We can not between us to agree when to celebrate Easter and Christmass. :)
Indeed...we should worry about uniting our major feasts between Orthodox before worrying about Catholics. But at the same time, we should commend ourselves for not making it a divisive issue either.
In Serbia we have two practice.
One part of believers take Communion every Sunday.
Second part take Communion only in fasting periods. If they want to take Communion in non-fasting period they fast one week before taking Communion.
What is practice in Coptic and other Oriental Orthodox Churches?
because we go up to the front for Holy Communion (and only rarely people go up for a blessing and not for Holy Communion), you can see that there are very few people left standing in church during that time who do not go up.
we just have to keep the fasts our priest says to (ill people and very young or very old don't fast very much) so during this time of not fasting, we just have to abstain from food and water (and marital relations) for 9 hours before Holy Communion and to have been to confession recently (usually this means in the last month).
of course, we should also prepare by repenting of our sins the day before and during the liturgy and by praying and having a relationship with God.
Just one clarification, you said:
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164660#msg164660 date=1368998534]
we just have to keep the fasts our priest says to
Did you mean to keep the fast Church says to? Or priests?
In Serbia we have 4 big fasts and every Wedensday and Friday.
What fastings do you have?
like a teenager who is growing fast might give up meat but still eat dairy.
most people fast from all animal products during great lent (ours is 55 days) and ninevah's fast (3 days - originated in syria), and fast from animal products except fish during saint mary's fast, the nativity fast (Christmas) and the apostle's fast.
we also fast from all animal products wednesdays and fridays (except the 50 days after Pascha where we don't do any fasting except the 9 hours before Holy Communion).
we fast 9 hours before Holy Communion instead of 6, although usually as it is in the morning, it doesn't make any difference if it is 9 or 6 hours as we fast from midnight anyway.
i suppose the only difference is that if Holy Communion happens really early, like at 7.30am after a 6am liturgy, then we would fast from 10.30pm the night before.
even then, if you are getting up at 5am or earlier to get to church, you should probably (for health reasons!) sleep by 10.30pm, so the extra fasting is no big deal.
may God bless u as u celebrate with us the Holy 50 days until pentecost
:)
we have the same fasts, but if someone is a new convert, or still in school, or has medical conditions then they fast differently.
The same here. Too young, too old and ill people do not fast full fast or do not fast at all and take Communion regulary. Pregnant women also do not fast and take Communion normaly.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225]
during great lent (ours is 55 days)
Our Great Lent is 48 days. Any idea why we have a week less? Or why you have a week more?
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225]
we fast 9 hours before Holy Communion
We fast from the midnight no matter when the Liturgy starts in the morning. Liturgy usually starts at 8:00, 9:00 or 10:00am, depending from Diocese.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225]
may God bless u as u celebrate with us the Holy 50 days until pentecost
:)
Long live Dear Mabsoota and Many years! :)
Actually, I think both your church and our Church fast 55 days, but we have different fasting rules. You have something called "Cheesefare Week". In the Coptic Church, the first week, according to a medieval Coptic set of traditions by Awlad al Assal is called "Heraclius' week", which is a preparation week. We fast fully Lenten during that week, no different from the rest of the 48 days. But from what I understand, your Church can have cheese and milk that week. Is this true for the Serbian Church?
Oh yes! Preparation weeks. Bravo!
Meat-Fare week (we do not eat meat any more, and with this week we are the same in day numbers of Great Lent, but we can eat milk and cheese)
Cheese-Fare week is already first week of Great Lent (strict fasting, no oil)
we have the same fasts
Do Copts have Dormition fast?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Theotokos#Dormition_fast
I read that this fast is established in Serbian Church in 13th century.
Do you have that one fast also?
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13966.msg164683#msg164683 date=1369085225]
we have the same fasts
Do Copts have Dormition fast?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Theotokos#Dormition_fast
I read that this fast is established in Serbian Church in 13th century.
Do you have that one fast also?
Yes we do have this fast and the feast is fixed on August 22nd. The rules for this fast are the same as the Nativity and Apostle's fast which consist of no meat or dairy, and no fish on wednesdays or fridays.
and the feast is fixed on August 22nd. The rules for this fast are the same as the Nativity and Apostle's fast which consist of no meat or dairy, and no fish on wednesdays or fridays.
Here is feast fixed on August August 15th.
Is there any link with list of names and sees?
Coptic, Armenian, Malankara, Syriac, Ethiopian... Did all of the patriarchs served the Liturgy together in last decades?
If yes, why we have two Malankara churches in the same area?