Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Drinking
We all know how getting durnk is wrong but is drinking itself w/o being drunk a sin?
I mean alot of Muslims belive that Christians dont think drinking is wrong or a sin?
Any insights
God Bless
I mean alot of Muslims belive that Christians dont think drinking is wrong or a sin?
Any insights
God Bless
Comments
We all know how getting durnk is wrong but is drinking itself w/o being drunk a sin?
how can u be drunk without drinking!!!
what you do from being drunk is the sin not drnking itslef. also being drunk comes from drnking to much which is also wrong.
Is drinking wrong? No. Is drinking to excess wrong? Absolutely. Anything taken in moderation is not harmful to a person. Anything taken to excess can be not only harmful, but deadly as well.
I do drink rather sporadically and modestly, however, even with 1 standard drink there is obvious depression of my neurological function albeit rather minimal. I don't believe that drinking should be made the forbidden fruit, however, I think that "perfect moderation" can be culturally and socially made difficult.
For instance, you go to a friends house. They offer you a drink- you take it (it's just a drink). Knowing that you do drink- they say have another. It has been awhile, so a little apprehensively you accept and gulp it. Then you are offered another. Not only has your inhibitions decreased, they knowing you drink, and do not share your moral indignation of the evils of being drunk makes it even more challenging for you to decline. Not only that, you might be coerced into believing that to maintain in good terms that you should take another.
Sometimes complete abstinence is much easier to continue perfect moderation. Foresight and discretion may have averted a scenario thus ever begetting, but this is what is at risk when you sip the drink.
I'm with the muslims on this one. I'm not a fan of drinking in any quantities.
lol....atleast there is somthing that can be called good out of 'em.
[quote author=Mark423 link=topic=5659.msg75493#msg75493 date=1187102148]
I'm with the muslims on this one. I'm not a fan of drinking in any quantities.
To each his (or her) own.
Ibnul Juzi in Zadul Maseer says, "God, Highly exalted, revealed four verses regarding wine: in Mecca He said, 'And of the fruits of the palms and the vines, you take therefrom an intoxicant and a provision fair.'(Sura al-Nahl 16:67) Muslims at the comencement of Islam drank wine and it was lawful for them. Then in Medina Sura al-Baqara 2:219 was revealed: 'They will question thee concerning wine and arrow-shuffling. Say, "In both is heinous sin, and uses for men, but the sin in them is more heinous than the usefulness." Therefore some departed from it on account of His saying "In both is heinous sin," while others continued drinking it on account of His saying "and uses for men""
It was when Abdel Rahmaan Ibn Auf made a meal for Muhammad's companions, he also gave win to drink. When it was time for sunset prayer subsequent to drinking, the man being intoxicated, he quoted Sura al-Kaifirun 109:2 he said, "Say: 'O believers, draw not near to prayer when you are drunken until you know what you are saying." It is thus obvious that God inhibited drinking before prayer times.
It was only later when Sad rushed to Muhammed complaining about an Ansaarite who in a drunken party been hit and fractured by a jawbone, and at that God is told to reveal Sura al-Maida 5:90: "O believers, wine and arrow-shuffling, idols...are an abomination, some of Satan's work..Will you then desist?"
Earlier the verse saying drinking and arrow-shuffling have both uses and is also a heinous sin, shows how defective that concept is, because it reveals something really grotesque- that the exorbitant amounts of profit from dealing with thus were the uses alluded to!
(the above is paraphrased from Emir Rishawi's book "A struggle that led to conversion".)
Also, apparently Heaven has a river of wine? This just escapes me.
Whilst the ban that Muhammad had to enforce may be beneficial, the reasoning and history underpins a rather cumbersome moral indignation.
Is it because of the acts a person does after drinking
or
Is it because its unhealthy
I mean the way i see it is both of them come from abuse of it
[center]We should reject alcoholic beverages because:
1. It brings violence and misery (Prov. 23:29).
2. It turns a man away from God (Is. 28:7).
3. It destroys life (Prov. 23:32; Deut. 32:33; Hos. 7:5).
4. Its use leads to condemnation (Isa. 5:22; 1 Cor. 8:10).
5. It leads to eternal ruin (Isa. 51:17, 22; Jer. 25:15; Rev. 14:19).
6. God rejects drunkenness because it degrades human dignity "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18). St. Paul warns against wine because it intoxicates man and affects his walk, talk, outlook on life and most important contrasts with the filling of the Spirit.
7. God warns, "Do not LOOK on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; at the last it bites like a SERPENT, and stings like a VIPER" (Prov. 23:31-32).
8. Because of its danger, God gives the warning, "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle" (Hab. 2:15)
9. The Bible warns against drunkenness when it commands "Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy" (Rom. 13:13). Drinking was common in Rome, and St. Paul wisely exhorts Christians to avoid it.
10. Nor drunkards . . . will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:10)
11. Alcohol destroys the body. God made our bodies and He dwells in us (1 Cor. 6:19). Therefore, we sin against God when we harm our bodies with alcohol.
12. Drinking opens the door to other sins. Drinking is not only a sin for what it is, but for what it allows us to do.
On the social level:
1. Alcohol destroys the moral and integrity of the society. Anything that destroys our society's righteousness is a sin, and alcohol is an evil that has done much to erode our Christianity, especially in the western society. Drunkenness led to lawlessness and disrespect for many western nations.
2. Consuming alcoholic beverages, even in small amounts, gives the green light to our young children to drink, which may lead them to become alcoholics.
3. Alcohol releases a person's inhibitions and destroys his self-control.Hence, the drunken person, because his self-discipline is gone, will commit acts that he would never consider doing otherwise. That would embarrass him if he were sober.
Therefore, God's children should abstain from drinking alcoholic beverages.[/center]
I think social point 2 is a slippery slope argument that ignores the reality of rebellion, and that parents can talk to their children about alcohol. I believe that if parents show responsible drinking habits with their children, they reduce the temptation to rebel when they leave. Drunkenness in children eyes are different from just having a drink with their friends, and for their parents to confuse the two, I think will more likely cause rebellion.
but the verse can be misunderstood because i mean Murdering isn't lawful to us? Or am i miss-understanding it?
I think you need to understand the context of the verse. Sins (all sins) are not lawful to us. That, I think, is clear, and we all agree that murder is a sin. What that verse is referring to is certain Jewish 'kosher' laws and traditions which were additional rules and regulations that were imposed on people, but didn't really add anything to God's commandments. For instance, the law that forbade the eating of unclean animals (such as pigs). There were certain laws practiced by the Jews that were 'unnecessary'. It is these sorts of things that Paul was talking about. Thus, in the case of drinking, which is inherently not sinful, it is lawful for us to drink. There is nothing wrong with the occasional drink. The same goes for eating pork, or working on the 'sabbath' or things like that.
We should reject alcoholic beverages because:
13. It "maketh glad the heart of man" (Ps. 103:15) :P
pray 4 me.
Actually alcohol in moderation is very useful to the body. And I am saying "very" here. It is the reason why you see in Western communities they live healthier. Alcohol does have many useful aspects:
- protection of the heart, and the circulation
- strengthening the arteries
- improving concentration
Obviously, all of these useful effects turn to the complete opposite when alcohol is consumed in excess: especially on a short-term basis. Some studies showed that drinking 50 units once a week poses more serious risk than 30 units every day.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
What I meant in my last post was that if you are not sure weather it is a sin or not, just leave it and don't have it. Alchohol in moderate amounts is useful to the body and not against our faith but different people have different views on this.
Pray for me
Our Lord's first miracle was to turn water into wine, and at the Last Supper wine was served. At the Eucharistic feast the wine becomes His Blood through a mystery we cannot apprehend but which we believe.
Teetotalism is something which has been recommended by Christians from time to time, but there neither the Holy Scriptures nor the practice of the early Church suggests it should be anything but voluntary. The Tradition of the Church is that we use wine at the Eucharist - anything else is grape juice, which the Church did not use then.
Societies influenced by the Muslim attitude on this one do tend to reject all alcohol.
[Incidentally, I do worry about Muslims at times. They ban drink because they think that if they start they can't stop; they veil women because they fear that if they see an unveiled woman they'll be unable to control their lustful thoughts. Either these guys need to get with a program of some sort - or they could try a little Christian self-denial and restraint. ;) ].
Anglian
Our Lord's first miracle was to turn water into wine, and at the Last Supper wine was served. At the Eucharistic feast the wine becomes His Blood through a mystery we cannot apprehend but which we believe.
Did you know that one of the saintley monks (I think it was St Macarius the great) when people offered him wine he would accept it and drink it. After that one of his disciples noticed that every time someone gave him wine, he would fast without water for a day. This probably indicates that drinking wine isn't wrong but it is a luxury item.
Another problem with alcohol is that if u abuse it, it can lead to people getting drunk, people having fights and an increse in crime rates as you can probably tell in places in europe.
It should be allowed but people can abuse it and it can lead to sin.
I have also noticed that copts have different opinions on this issue.
Some completley rejecting alcohol.
Some only reject it in fasts and sundays etc.
And some don't reject it at all.
It is hard to tell who is right or wrong. If someone feels it can lead them to sin.... They can just leave it. If others don't think that it could lead them into sin then they can have it.
On the whole I think it's more of a pesonal issue that differs from one person to the other.
pray 4 me
I would be very interested in other views on this, because, as you say, there seem to be a number of positions that can be taken up.
I am always suspicious of the argument that one should not do something because, if done to excess, it might be harmful; that would cover an awful lot of things in this life. As Christians we are called to asceticism and self-restraint, so if we can't manage a glass of wine without descending into alcoholism, we're not trying very hard!
If Our Lord and His disciples drank wine, there seems no reason why we should not. But I know there are those with good arguments the other way, and I am always open to hearing other views.
In Christ,
Anglian
i.e. my moms family favors complete abstinance from alchy,
my mom herself refuses to drink anything but a glass of wine everynow and then, adn teh wine has to be from the same kind used in churches (the naturally fermented 4% alch.) other than that she completley refuses even if ti was a diff type of alch.
my dad's family view drinking as something casual, and by this i mean at any family event/gathering beer, whiskey must be present.
Now as i said before, we as Christians believe taht drunkness is wrong, not drinking. So in my case, i'm really skinny but defnitley not a lightweight, so i can have 4 shots of whiskey and not be affected, but at the same time my cousin whose taller and wider than me can half a beer and be completely out.
So my point here would be taht, i like to look at drinking as something personal, the amount one should drink completely depends on him. Moderation is key, just like food, food is not wrong, but over-indulgence is.
just my view
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Is drinking wrong? No. Is drinking to excess wrong? Absolutely. Anything taken in moderation is not harmful to a person. Anything taken to excess can be not only harmful, but deadly as well.
I believe it said in the Bible this that drinking excessively is wrong, but just drinking for a short period of time is not wrong!
Properly used and appreciated, wine can be one of life's great pleasures and one of His great gifts to us; but how typical of mankind to abuse His gifts.
In Christ,
Anglian
i was just wondering what then is the Churche's opinion on smoking? I mean is it like our views on drinking?
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5659.msg79594#msg79594 date=1195841227]
If Our Lord and His disciples drank wine, there seems no reason why we should not. But I know there are those with good arguments the other way, and I am always open to hearing other views.
From the reasons that some copts don't drink wine:
+Jesus and the disciples drank wine. It's a good point but some people argue that at that time water wasn't clean so they drank wine as it was clean due to fermentation but now we can purify water etc... and we don't need it that much.
+Some people accept not drinking wine due to St John the baptist who didn't drink wine as he wanted to live a live of ascetism and so they take him as an example.
+Another point of view is that wine (although it has many uses) it is not essential for life and thus people can live without it.
+Some people are not sure so they just leave it.
+They have been influenced by other races over time that don't accept wine.
+It can cause sin...
Overall it is allowed but will it benifit us?
-It can if we don't abuse it.
Pray 4 me
God Bless
We all know how getting durnk is wrong but is drinking itself w/o being drunk a sin?
I mean alot of Muslims belive that Christians dont think drinking is wrong or a sin?
Any insights
God Bless
There is absolutely nothing wrong with drinking in moderation--Christianity allows that. Drinking to get drunk is wrong though, just as gluttony is wrong too. Muslims don't allow any drinking, not even drinking in moderation.
i know this forum is on drinking but i would like to expland it to smoking also. Is it wrong to smoke? I do not see any harm in it as long as you are reasonable in your intake.
God Bless
Are you kidding?
Smoking is addictive; and every puff is doing damage. There is no medical benefits. Some really small studies that apparently showed smoking to retard the progression of some mental disorders have been reversed, now showing that indeed smoking can lead to early mental retardation. This is not including the many cancers that it can bring, some with a prognosis of 10 months!
Not to mention it is an irresponsible way of spending money. Moderate smoking is a misnomer, because there is very few people who start and do not struggle to stop. Addiction to smoking, unlike alcohol, has less to do with genetics. Smoking kills at any level. It has 42 procarcinogens at least, and those with genetic predisposition are likely to get many cancers (squamous cell carcinoma, small cell carcinoma) and emphysema. All smokers will get chronic bronchitis, which debilitative.
Mostly all the patients in hospital that I see were smokers, or are smokers. It is really deceiving to think that smoking is on par with alcohol.
However, alcohol is also bad for you in any amount. The cardiovascular benefits are not withstanding liver and stomach injury. The liver is necessary, to well..."live". It is involved in making energy for the rest of the body to use, and also many proteins in the blood to stop from bleeding to death etc. Your stomach can be injured by alcohol, even in continuous moderation, and make you vulnerable to ulcers, and even bleeds. Alcohol also decreases your absorption of some vitamins (especially Thiamin, a B vitamin), which may lead to brain degeneration (cerebral atrophy, cerebllar degeneration and optic neuropathy) as well as the classic Wernicke-Korsakoff mental retardation. Whilst alcohol can increase the levels of good cholesterol (HDL), and thus decrease coronary heart disease (i.e. heart attack, angina pectoris etc) it has shown to increase hypertension.
For women, just one drink per day in pregnancy can retard the growth and mental development of the foetus.
The glass of win a day recommendation is not a recommendation, but only if you need to drink alcohol. All alcohol is doing you damage. But unlike smoking, it doesn't have millions of carcinogens, and the liver is remarkable in remaking itself.
Unlike any other substance, tobacco and alcohol is the one that is killing people. Not cocaine, not amphetamines, cannaboids, barbiturates or anything like them, but alcohol and tobacco. Just their use, (not abuse) have documented side-effects.
Moderation for alcohol might be 1 drink in the occasional feast, but there is no safe limit for smoking. Again the recommendation for alcohol that is so popular is actually meant to decrease people's drinking, not for people start up with drinking.
People are being crippled by smoking- crippled. Have you ever met a cancer patient? Have you ever met someone who had COPD, where they are gasping for air, chocking? Have you asked a person who had a heart attack how the chest pain felt, or what he was thinking when he was breathless? Have you seen the smile of a smoker, and wondered what it would look like? You know those smoking mothers and fathers, do you know how they would feel that they can't chase and play sport with their kids? How about that some parents are outliving their smoking children.
Let's get it straight. Smoking is not just wrong- it is stupidity. (Mind you I do many stupid things, repeatedly everyday)
I get that you said moderation; but with something so addictive, and something jam-packed with things that you wouldn't dare feed a rat (actually there is rat poison in cigarettes) the idea of moderation is silly. I understand some "cigar" smoking, or that thing with the tube has been accepted by some Egyptians, but they are just as disgusting, but luckily they seem too extravagant for regular use. Only one cigarrette can cause some the effects I had described. What would moderation be, 1 cigarette a year?!
I think at this day and age, where you can't get misinformed about the vices of smoking, that health care costs should not be paid by the government for them. I am sick of taxpayers money going to these suicidals, when mental care is being grossly neglected.
The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and we should not damage that temple. One of the effects of the Fall was that we became subject to physical degeneration and death. However clever doctors are the death rate has remained constant throughout human history - 100%.
Smoking seems in a different category from drinking. Drinking in moderation seems harmless, and there are studies which show that red wine in moderation can have some benefits; moreover, Our Lord and His disciples drank wine. Smoking does nothing but harm to you and therefore should be avoided as damaging the temple of the Holy Spirit.
In Christ,
Anglian
However clever doctors are the death rate has remained constant throughout human history - 100%.
There are two people who escaped; not with the help of doctors though. :)