[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7205.msg95940#msg95940 date=1224504273] Hezekiel, I made this topic so we can discuss this. Each person can share their thoughts in a civilized discussion. This is not equal to playing judge and jury. I just think it's very dangerous to have a macchiavellistic attitude when it comes to religious matters: I do whatever I want to prove my love for God, even if what I do is a sin!!
Well,well ,some harsh words for me,right? I do not understand the gist of it all, but there seems to be an implication that my approach was somewhat 'uncivilized'. By uncivilzed, I understand,that someone has called names, showed contempt,discourteousy;crudeness, uncivility towards forum members. Please show me where it is that I revealed such manners so that I get my acts together.
Moreover,I thought 'macchiavellianism' was a belief where the philosophy of everything goes to achieve ones intended goal;a principle where morality and virtues are replaced by corruption, dishonesty and unethicalness. I have no idea where I fit in this doctrine, but what 'machiavellistic attitude' did I expose in the course of this dicussion? I 'd love to see my own words that have the hallmark of that principle!
Look at the Egyptian constitution art 2 'Islam is the religion of the state...' thus OFFICIALLY Islam is the religion of the state, ON PAPER. I hate the fact that this article is in the Egyptian constitution, and I'm sure many others hate it too. But that doesn't mean I will kill myself rather than have my country officially be a muslim country, because I can still live in Egypt and be a christian, PROCLAIMING CHRIST'S NAME... Look at the copts living in Egypt, the largest christian minority in the middle east, surrounded by muslims, yet glorifying God, enduring persecution and hatred, yet waking up everyday and fighting injustice. Enduring through faith and prayer... Maybe it's not the best example but I hope you get the point.
The argument that Egypt is an Islamic country has nothing to do with the dire plight of the two boys who are suffering and agonizing ,because they are refusing to submit to Islam.The analogy is, in my view, misplaced.Also, the point of the discussion is not to sift out the differences between hunger strike that leads to death and deliberate suicide , but about two unfortunate boys who courageously opted to go on a hungerstrike to fight for the truth and live in Christ. I n my opinion, the least we should do is say prayers on their behalf instead of questioning the wisdom of their struggle. I bet, their local church is assisting them in doing what they think is right and available. Now I said, We should stop acting like a 'Prosecutor, Judge and Jury'; in saying that I am talking about the collective "we" and did in no way singled you out.Needless to mention, when you wrote "the end justifies the means, I can do whatever as long as it's for God doesn't that ring a bell? 'Al Jihad fi sabeel Allah', to the casual reader,the statement sounds judgemental, eventhough that is not the intention. Anger could be justified,but casting Judgement is never just, specially when one does not have the whole picture of a situation.
Dear brother, I think you misunderstood me, please forgive me if my words seemed harsh..
I didn't mean to imply you were uncivilized in any way, believe me I know I'm in no position to judge you... And anyways this was not meant as a personal attack toward you, I merely clarified the intention I had when creating this topic... This intention which I think you misunderstood when you stated that it's playing the judge and jury.
Machiavelli wrote Il Principe in which he stated that the ruler can do whatever to maintain power (of course his writing consisted of more than just that, but that was his main point), which is why Machiavelli is linked to the famous saying: The end justifies the means. And it was not you who were exposing this attitude, but I was merely referring to the fact that some people think this can be applied to religion, which is an attitude I don't agree with, personally
Praying for these boys includes asking God to lead them in the path that He wants, not the path they might think is good. I don't judge the boys, however I think there is nothing wrong with discussing the consequences of any similar action lead by the belief that anything is allowed as long as it is for God. as an example to a consequence of this belief I referred to what some extremist muslim terrorists say, but this was in no way referring to the particular situation of the boys
The example I gave, which you didn't like, and which I admit wasn't the best example was meant to bring to you my point which is. They can still live as christians regardless of what the papers say. I don't remember christ ever saying: by looking at your papers they will see if you're my deciples or not.. It's rather a person's heart that shows his true religion.. The link to my expample was the fact that we are living in egypt as christians although officially, on paper Egypt is a muslim country.
Anyways, I apologize again to you, it was not my intention to upset you like that I merely wanted to clarify some things
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7205.msg96147#msg96147 date=1224677412] but I was merely referring to the fact that some people think this can be applied to religion, which is an attitude I don't agree with, personally..........
....The example I gave, which you didn't like, and which I admit wasn't the best example was meant to bring to you my point which is. They can still live as christians regardless of what the papers say. I don't remember christ ever saying: by looking at your papers they will see if you're my deciples or not.. It's rather a person's heart that shows his true religion.. The link to my expample was the fact that we are living in egypt as christians although officially, on paper Egypt is a muslim country.
Godislove, thanks for letting me know,that I did not go overboard. I was concerned, because like you, I know the contents of the book "Der Fuerst" ( German for 'the prince'),that declares that there is no morality in politics. In contrary,unlike Islam ,christianity without morality , ie, without the sense of right and wrong is lame and invalid.
I really do not condone hunger-strike per se as a way out of trouble where there are other options available. In the case of the boys, I thought this method of protest was the last resort.I also happen to think the local Abuna and Bishopric must be attending to their needs. This means,-of course I could be wrong here,-these are young boys who do not know what it means to go on a hunger strike,unless the idea is sanctioned by the church itself.There are numerous examples of Middle Eastern Catholic faithful who have gone on a hungerstrike to raise global awareness of their ordeal. So the idea does not really sound something outlandish in the Christian communities. Another reason I objected the paper thing argument emanates from the fact ,due to their vulnerability and young age,they could be duped into acceptting Islam as the sole truthful gospel of God. True Egypt is an Islamic country on paper,but that does not mean Copts live as Musilms on paper,unless the primitive Wahabi- clan of Saudis have overtaken in Egypt without my knowledge.
When it comes to trying to convert someone to Islam againt his or her will in this age and century , then it must be dealt with vigorously, and I believe that is what the two courageous boys, despite the fact that they have to endure the painful separation from one of their parents are doing .May the Lord fight for them. Once again,thanks for your post.
I do not think that it is suicide because you are living up your life to god. The 2 boys are keeping their Christian Faiths and our lord knows it. Our lord will help them through out their lives as REAL christians who cannot let go of their faiths, he will never forget them keeping their love to our lord jesus christ. Anyways, suicide is the act of killing yourself for doing something wrong. Judas commited suicide to himself and our lord Jesus Christ didn't accept him to the paradise of joy. These boys weRE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain Philppians 1:21
[quote author=clay link=topic=7205.msg95584#msg95584 date=1223985230] It's not suicide. It's martyrdom. I think lots of us have oversimplified our view on the morality of suicide.
there is a saint in the synixar who threw herself into the fire instead of something else like that and she is a martyr, these boys the same, they sacrifice themselves for the faith.
Below is the story of the twin brothers who are being persecuted.
Application of Islamic Sharia by court in Egypt forces Islam on Christian woman and separtes a mother from her 13 years old twin sons.
Press Release
On the 23rd September 2008 The Shobra El-Khema criminal Court, Egypt sentenced Mrs. Bahia Nagy El-Sisi case number 14223 year 1996 to maximum sentence of 3 years imprisonment for “forgery of official document”. The fact is Bahia refused to follow her late father conversion to Islam which took place for a short period during her childhood before his return to Christianity ,and refused to become Muslim in her ID card.
Bahia comes from a small village in Meet Ghamr town, Egypt. Her father Nagi El-Sisi converted to Islam for a short period in 1962 when she was 3 years old. Her father deserted the house for a short period, may be a year or two then returned confirming that he returned back to Christianity and continued family life with his wife and children till he died in early nineties.
According to Islamic Sharia, when a person converts to Islam, his minor children become Muslims and brought up as such. A convert also gain their custody of his children too if the mother does not follow, in this case, Bahia according to Islamic Sharia law, because of her father’s conversion, she has to convert to Islam, an Islamic Sharia principle which seriously undermines the principles of international declarations, treaties and covenants which holds the Freedom of Religion as basic tenant and elemental Human Right.
The second court verdict which made that day a black day for justice and the Freedom of Religion for the Christians in Egypt is the separation of the two minors Andrew and Mario both 13y from their mother Mrs. Camilia Gaballah following their father Medhat Ramses Labib convertion to Islam.
As mentioned earlier, and according to Islamic Sharia, which stipulates that the child will follow the parent with the “better religion” which in the eyes of Egypt judiciary is Islam. In spite of both Mario and Andrew declared that they were raised as Christians and pleaded to remain so. Unfortunately both had to be separated from their mother as the judge awarded the custody to the Muslim father in accordance with Islamic Sharia to be raised as Muslims.
The Egyptian Constitution stipulates in its first article after 2007 amendments that citizenship is the foundation of the Egyptian society, also article 40 stipulates that All citizens are equal before the law without discrimination between them due to race, ethnic origin, language, religion or creed. The Egyptian government claims to be a civil modern state not a theocratic state.
The United Copts of Great Britain condemns the biased court ruling and ask the Egyptian government and its agencies including the Egyptian judiciary to show justice and respect for Human Rights of the Christian population of Egypt and to do it’s best to fight infiltration of the government agencies by Radical Islamists and to bear in mind its duty and responsibility to treat all its citizens equally.
Comments
Any info on this guys?
Are they still on the hunger strike? or are they dead? or what?
God Bless US Amen!
Hezekiel, I made this topic so we can discuss this. Each person can share their thoughts in a civilized discussion. This is not equal to playing judge and jury.
I just think it's very dangerous to have a macchiavellistic attitude when it comes to religious matters: I do whatever I want to prove my love for God, even if what I do is a sin!!
Well,well ,some harsh words for me,right? I do not understand the gist of it all, but there seems to be an implication that my approach was somewhat 'uncivilized'. By uncivilzed, I understand,that someone has called names, showed contempt,discourteousy;crudeness, uncivility towards forum members. Please show me where it is that I revealed such manners so that I get my acts together.
Moreover,I thought 'macchiavellianism' was a belief where the philosophy of everything goes to achieve ones intended goal;a principle where morality and virtues are replaced by corruption, dishonesty and unethicalness. I have no idea where I fit in this doctrine, but what 'machiavellistic attitude' did I expose in the course of this dicussion? I 'd love to see my own words that have the hallmark of that principle! The argument that Egypt is an Islamic country has nothing to do with the dire plight of the two boys who are suffering and agonizing ,because they are refusing to submit to Islam.The analogy is, in my view, misplaced.Also, the point of the discussion is not to sift out the differences between hunger strike that leads to death and deliberate suicide , but about two unfortunate boys who courageously opted to go on a hungerstrike to fight for the truth and live in Christ. I n my opinion, the least we should do is say prayers on their behalf instead of questioning the wisdom of their struggle. I bet, their local church is assisting them in doing what they think is right and available. Now I said, We should stop acting like a 'Prosecutor, Judge and Jury'; in saying that I am talking about the collective "we" and did in no way singled you out.Needless to mention, when you wrote "the end justifies the means, I can do whatever as long as it's for God doesn't that ring a bell? 'Al Jihad fi sabeel Allah', to the casual reader,the statement sounds judgemental, eventhough that is not the intention. Anger could be justified,but casting Judgement is never just, specially when one does not have the whole picture of a situation.
I didn't mean to imply you were uncivilized in any way, believe me I know I'm in no position to judge you... And anyways this was not meant as a personal attack toward you, I merely clarified the intention I had when creating this topic... This intention which I think you misunderstood when you stated that it's playing the judge and jury.
Machiavelli wrote Il Principe in which he stated that the ruler can do whatever to maintain power (of course his writing consisted of more than just that, but that was his main point), which is why Machiavelli is linked to the famous saying: The end justifies the means.
And it was not you who were exposing this attitude, but I was merely referring to the fact that some people think this can be applied to religion, which is an attitude I don't agree with, personally
Praying for these boys includes asking God to lead them in the path that He wants, not the path they might think is good. I don't judge the boys, however I think there is nothing wrong with discussing the consequences of any similar action lead by the belief that anything is allowed as long as it is for God. as an example to a consequence of this belief I referred to what some extremist muslim terrorists say, but this was in no way referring to the particular situation of the boys
The example I gave, which you didn't like, and which I admit wasn't the best example was meant to bring to you my point which is. They can still live as christians regardless of what the papers say. I don't remember christ ever saying: by looking at your papers they will see if you're my deciples or not.. It's rather a person's heart that shows his true religion..
The link to my expample was the fact that we are living in egypt as christians although officially, on paper Egypt is a muslim country.
Anyways, I apologize again to you, it was not my intention to upset you like that
I merely wanted to clarify some things
but I was merely referring to the fact that some people think this can be applied to religion, which is an attitude I don't agree with, personally..........
....The example I gave, which you didn't like, and which I admit wasn't the best example was meant to bring to you my point which is. They can still live as christians regardless of what the papers say. I don't remember christ ever saying: by looking at your papers they will see if you're my deciples or not.. It's rather a person's heart that shows his true religion..
The link to my expample was the fact that we are living in egypt as christians although officially, on paper Egypt is a muslim country.
Godislove, thanks for letting me know,that I did not go overboard. I was concerned, because like you, I know the contents of the book "Der Fuerst" ( German for 'the prince'),that declares that there is no morality in politics. In contrary,unlike Islam ,christianity without morality , ie, without the sense of right and wrong is lame and invalid.
I really do not condone hunger-strike per se as a way out of trouble where there are other options available. In the case of the boys, I thought this method of protest was the last resort.I also happen to think the local Abuna and Bishopric must be attending to their needs. This means,-of course I could be wrong here,-these are young boys who do not know what it means to go on a hunger strike,unless the idea is sanctioned by the church itself.There are numerous examples of Middle Eastern Catholic faithful who have gone on a hungerstrike to raise global awareness of their ordeal. So the idea does not really sound something outlandish in the Christian communities. Another reason I objected the paper thing argument emanates from the fact ,due to their vulnerability and young age,they could be duped into acceptting Islam as the sole truthful gospel of God. True Egypt is an Islamic country on paper,but that does not mean Copts live as Musilms on paper,unless the primitive Wahabi- clan of Saudis have overtaken in Egypt without my knowledge.
When it comes to trying to convert someone to Islam againt his or her will in this age and century , then it must be dealt with vigorously, and I believe that is what the two courageous boys, despite the fact that they have to endure the painful separation from one of their parents are doing .May the Lord fight for them. Once again,thanks for your post.
The 2 boys are keeping their Christian Faiths and our lord knows it. Our lord will help them through out their lives as REAL christians who cannot let go of their faiths, he will never forget them keeping their love to our lord jesus christ.
Anyways, suicide is the act of killing yourself for doing something wrong. Judas commited suicide to himself and our lord Jesus Christ didn't accept him to the paradise of joy.
These boys weRE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain
Philppians 1:21
It's not suicide. It's martyrdom. I think lots of us have oversimplified our view on the morality of suicide.
there is a saint in the synixar who threw herself into the fire instead of something else like that and she is a martyr, these boys the same, they sacrifice themselves for the faith.
Application of Islamic Sharia by court in Egypt forces Islam on Christian woman and separtes a mother from her 13 years old twin sons.
Press Release
On the 23rd September 2008 The Shobra El-Khema criminal Court, Egypt sentenced Mrs. Bahia Nagy El-Sisi case number 14223 year 1996 to maximum sentence of 3 years imprisonment for “forgery of official document”. The fact is Bahia refused to follow her late father conversion to Islam which took place for a short period during her childhood before his return to Christianity ,and refused to become Muslim in her ID card.
Bahia comes from a small village in Meet Ghamr town, Egypt. Her father Nagi El-Sisi converted to Islam for a short period in 1962 when she was 3 years old. Her father deserted the house for a short period, may be a year or two then returned confirming that he returned back to Christianity and continued family life with his wife and children till he died in early nineties.
According to Islamic Sharia, when a person converts to Islam, his minor children become Muslims and brought up as such. A convert also gain their custody of his children too if the mother does not follow, in this case, Bahia according to Islamic Sharia law, because of her father’s conversion, she has to convert to Islam, an Islamic Sharia principle which seriously undermines the principles of international declarations, treaties and covenants which holds the Freedom of Religion as basic tenant and elemental Human Right.
The second court verdict which made that day a black day for justice and the Freedom of Religion for the Christians in Egypt is the separation of the two minors Andrew and Mario both 13y from their mother Mrs. Camilia Gaballah following their father Medhat Ramses Labib convertion to Islam.
As mentioned earlier, and according to Islamic Sharia, which stipulates that the child will follow the parent with the “better religion” which in the eyes of Egypt judiciary is Islam. In spite of both Mario and Andrew declared that they were raised as Christians and pleaded to remain so. Unfortunately both had to be separated from their mother as the judge awarded the custody to the Muslim father in accordance with Islamic Sharia to be raised as Muslims.
The Egyptian Constitution stipulates in its first article after 2007 amendments that citizenship is the foundation of the Egyptian society, also article 40 stipulates that All citizens are equal before the law without discrimination between them due to race, ethnic origin, language, religion or creed. The Egyptian government claims to be a civil modern state not a theocratic state.
The United Copts of Great Britain condemns the biased court ruling and ask the Egyptian government and its agencies including the Egyptian judiciary to show justice and respect for Human Rights of the Christian population of Egypt and to do it’s best to fight infiltration of the government agencies by Radical Islamists and to bear in mind its duty and responsibility to treat all its citizens equally.