As I said, ignorant baptists, evangelicals etc think honestly that anyone jewish is the rightful owner of a piece of land that they never even lived in, because God told them so!!!
These ignorant baptists... they are those that taught your world leaders in the USA.
THis brigitte gabriel person is so annoying. Her hatred for islam greatly outweights her heart's desire for righteousness. She doesnt mention whether the occupation of Palestine is justified, but she says that she prefers the kindness of the jews more than the treatment of the palestinians.
As a Christian, we have more in common with Judaism (as a religion) than with Islam, and as a people, we have also suffered more from Islam than from Judaism, but as a Christian, we must be impartial. We must love righteousness and truth, whether it favours those we hate or those we love. We have to be just like God is Just. His sun shines on the good and bad.
From a few incidences, she forgets the reason why the palestinians are at war, and just remembers the nice gestures of the jews.
Well, let me tell you: as a Coptic Christian, i have only bad memories of priests and deacons. NO GOOD memories. Coptic Priests and monks made my life so miserable. I think they are in HELL!!!!!! But I hope they are not.
Does these bad experiences mean i should be a jew or forget my religion? not at all.
Darn.. those baptists are just so lost. You see where all these problems come from?
EVERY SINGLE U.S president had a pastor. His personal spiritual guru. And how many of those pastors had the same opinion as those baptists in the link you sent?
And people wonder why there is no peace?? Because they think they are doing God's will, but in fact are really misled.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98399#msg98399 date=1229420805] Biblically speaking, who does this land belong to?
To the Jews! Judea and Samaria are mentioned in the bible as areas that belong to the Jews. As I said earlier, the term Jew is derived from the name Judea .So the Jews come from there and not and Palestinians.There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture ,language different from that of all the Arabs . There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians at all times. There is also no evidence to suggest that the 'Philistine people' that are mentioned in the OT are the same as the present day Palestinians.To me, the present day Palestinians are simply as arab muslims as the rest Arabs in the Middle East, because much of the Arab population in this area migrated into the Jewish territory of Israel, Judea and Samaria in the past 100 -150 years.Prior to that time, when the Ottoman empire had the control, most of the land was sparsley populated.
The question is not whether Israel has the right to exist or not, but that the majority Muslim Arab countries are a major impediment to the emergence of a Palestinian state. History has proven the 22 Arab league countries as worthless and dysfunctional that do not amount to anything ,let alone face the tiny dedicated Jewish state. Israel is there to STAY,period. The Arab world, the powers that be ,-should better swallow their pride and worthless empty rethoric and leave the Palestinian people handle their own cause.
Your original Q to which I replied what Ï know best was ,"biblically speaking, who does this land belong to? ". The link you gave does not answer this question. I am aware of what is going on, but that does not alter biblical or historical facts as I understand them.
The Youtube link seems to have stories that I am well acquainted with. I am no fun of the current US administration. It has decimated close to 1 million Iraqis since 2003 and has taken the US down the drain, to say the least. Successive US administrations have not only done injustice and caused destruction to the Palestinian people , but basically every country in the world has its own story to tell. However, these topics are less related to the question posed initially.
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=7449.msg98631#msg98631 date=1229816079] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98399#msg98399 date=1229420805] Biblically speaking, who does this land belong to?
To the Jews! Judea and Samaria are mentioned in the bible as areas that belong to the Jews. As I said earlier, the term Jew is derived from the name Judea .So the Jews come from there and not and Palestinians.There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture ,language different from that of all the Arabs . There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians at all times. There is also no evidence to suggest that the 'Philistine people' that are mentioned in the OT are the same as the present day Palestinians.To me, the present day Palestinians are simply as arab muslims as the rest Arabs in the Middle East, because much of the Arab population in this area migrated into the Jewish territory of Israel, Judea and Samaria in the past 100 -150 years.Prior to that time, when the Ottoman empire had the control, most of the land was sparsley populated.
The question is not whether Israel has the right to exist or not, but that the majority Muslim Arab countries are a major impediment to the emergence of a Palestinian state. History has proven the 22 Arab league countries as worthless and dysfunctional that do not amount to anything ,let alone face the tiny dedicated Jewish state. Israel is there to STAY,period. The Arab world, the powers that be ,-should better swallow their pride and worthless empty rethoric and leave the Palestinian people handle their own cause.
I don't know when QT said BIBLICALLY speaking, I thought he meant as in the teachings of the Bible, now where in the teachings of the Bible does it say Israel has the right to exist (thus kill Palestinians and take away their homes from them and make their lives hell...) What you said Hezekiel implies that you agree that the jews have more right to this piece of land than the Palestinians... unless I misunderstood you or I misunderstood the initial question by QT
[quote author=davids link=topic=7449.msg98660#msg98660 date=1229882092] of course israel has the right to exist. In the bible the Israelites were God's chosen people and even Jesus was an Israelite.
Exactly the Israelites WERE God's chosen poeple until they refused His Son the Saviour...
The Israelis were a people, not a land. Israelis are the geneological descendants of the Patriarchs. But their generations lived in Canaan which later became Palestine. It ONLY became Israel in 1948.
I think Americans are going to war for the personal agenda of Israel. They are oblivious to this. Israelis control not only the White House, but the Press. How far have we been influenced? This is ongoing and very serious.
like honestly.. this is a pretty stupid topic (no offense).. starting form the original question... like seriously what kind of question is "Does Israel have the right to exist?" who are we to judge who/wat has the right to exist? lol seriously lol
I made it clear, or at least I thought I made it clear, that it is apparent there are evangelical Christians who are proponents of Israel's existance, and by making the land jewish, they THINK they are enforcing God's will.
Their interpretation of the Bible is one that seems to have a political agenda, and not based on correct theology.
The question :"Does Israel have the right to exist" - asks whether its right is biblical or spiritual?
Sure, everyone has a right to exist.. i'm not disputing that, and God bless everyone who exists, even my cat.
But as Coptic Christians, do we believe that to be good christians - we have to promote zionism? Is this correct? I was under the impression that because the jews were disobedient, they forfeited the inheritance of this land. Furthermore, we believe that the Holy Land that we inherit is in heaven (as far as I know).
I don't know if you are aware, but there are huge, well financed christian organisations, that are preaching zionism. I mean, we are talking about Churches, pastors, etc..
If you need any examples, look at John Hagee, and other tele-evangelists.
Theologically speaking, does Israel have a RIGHT to exist?
If I said to you "Is Christ the Son of God" - would you answer and say "who are we to judge"?
I'm asking the question (does Israel have a right to exist) in a theological context. I am not judging whether people (jews/muslims etc) have a right to exist - the answer is clear: YES THEY DO HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST. OF COURSE!!!!
But, does the idea of israel being created as a jewish state somehow respect any Christian theological teaching, that it is in fact God's will that the land is jewish and owned by jews because it was promised to them?
[quote author=Godislove260 link=topic=7449.msg98653#msg98653 date=1229859670] I don't know when QT said BIBLICALLY speaking, I thought he meant as in the teachings of the Bible, now where in the teachings of the Bible does it say Israel has the right to exist (thus kill Palestinians and take away their homes from them and make their lives hell...) What you said Hezekiel implies that you agree that the jews have more right to this piece of land than the Palestinians... unless I misunderstood you or I misunderstood the initial question by QT
Hi Godislove260, The original question to which I replied is below:
As far as I can see, Israel was only created in 1948. Menachem Begin said that it was the land of their forefathers.
Biblically speaking, who does this land belong to?
Bibilically, the land belongs to the Jews! Israel was divided into two Kingdoms, Israel and Judah.King David was the king of ISRAEL. When the Babylonian invaded the Kingdom of Israel,they destroyed it whereas the Kingdom of Judah was spared. The Jews derive their name from Judah (yuhuda).This point should actually settle the question.
There has always been a continous Jewish presence in what is now known as Israel since the days of Abraham.Despite mass expulsion of Jews from Palestine at te hands of the Babylonians and the Romans , Jewsih presence continued under Roman, Byzantine,Ottoman and british rule until the establishment of Israel in the 1940's.They are the only Middle Eastern people who preserved the original language of their forfathers. Wherever you go, you find them at the highest rung of social ladder.I have nothing, but only admiration for them.
The people who call themselves Palestinians draw their culture from the arrival of the Arabic people in the 7th century when Muslims were in the mood of invading countries .Palestinians are simply arabs in accordance with the Arab culture.There is nothing in the Holy Bible that talks about them.Thus, biblically speaking, The land belongs to the Jews.
As to the Q, if Israel has the right to exist or not, that is non-sense. Israel has shamed all Arab countries time and again, including gaint Egypt.If it was according to the wish of arab muslims, Israel should have been wiped out a long time ago.However, the tiny nation has shown them that it is there to stay. Remember, that Arab musims are concernd with the Palestinian cause,only because they are Muslims. If the Palestinians were Christians or non-muslims, the story would be different.Most of the small percentage of the Palestinian Christians( they are Catholics) do prefer to take an Israeli citizenship,because they know they will be treated as second class under the Palestinian Authorities. Also, never forget that, you can not understand Christianity without understanding Judaism. In other words, our christianity is a sort of completed Judaism. Thus, you should not wonder why the West stands with Israel and the Arabs with the Palestinians.
The nation of Israel has survived against all odds and It has asserted herself in the region. The Arab Muslim governments should be wise and recognize it as a state, so that the oppressed Palestinian people could a peaceful solution. The Arabs themselves are the greatest hurdle to a peaceful settlement.Until such time, the Israeli governement would use every excuse in the book to continue its ill treatment towards them.
I do not condone the atrocities that are committed by the Jewish government against the Palestinian people ,but I will support the existance of Israel, for they have the right to a nation like everybody else. I simple reject the Arab mentality that aims to destroy them. At the same time, I wish the Palestinian cause would be settled without further bloodshed.
Hezekiel, I was very dissapointed to hear you say this...
Firstly, yes the ancient Israel, is something, but this is NOT the modern day Israel, which was founded ILLEGALLY and without any RIGHT!!! It was founded upon the blood of the Palestinians (by the way, many of whom are Jews who converted to Islam through the ages, and thus are not Arabs and it seems to me you have something against Arabs, which might very well be, but JUSTICE IS JUSTICE it knows no nationality or religion) who were killed and thrown out of their houses so the jewish settlers could take their homes and move in rightaway... SO NO, ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST, definitly NOT A BIBLICAL OR NON-BIBLICAL RIGHT!!! as they went in diaspora in 70 AD after emperor Titus had defeated them and destroyed their temple, and since then the country has never belonged to jews (although I agree, some jews stayed and didn't go in diaspora)
You say you have admiration for the jews, I don't hate the jews, but I don't admire a people who because they suffered during the holocaust take that as an excuse to do anything they like.. They are not the only people that suffered, but it's disgusting to see how they (or at least many of them) use that to accuse anyone who is against what they are doing with anti-semitism... Always playing the role of the innocent victims and fueling that in the minds of many so they would feel sympathy for what they are doing now..
The jews (of whom many are rich) are like that because in the Middleages, catholic antisemitism forbade them to own any land and treated them terrible, for they were considered the killers of Christ (yet their influence is so great nowadays, that they got the Catholic pope to actually remove that guilt from them).. so instead of real-estate, they became interested in trade, especially the Portugal jews (Portugal and Spain being wealthy trade countries) were very rich.. The diamond business in Europe is in the jews' hands for the majority..
Nowadays in the States , the jews enjoy a lot of sympathy, not just because of the presence of extremist-evangelical groups, but because they hold a lot of wealth.. This tiny country, did defeat the Arabs (48 - 67) this was also due to faults on the side of the Arabs themselves. But it is a fact that the jews receive aid, they didn't just do it all by themselves...
Oh and about the arabs supporting Palestine just because they are muslims, yes, probably the fact that they are muslims give a whole different dimension to the story, but don't forget that many christians (in Egypt, Lebanon, ) are also against Israel, simply because it was founded UNRIGHTFULLY. And look at the attrocities Israel continues to commit, did you forget the war on Lebanon recently???? Where both muslims and christians died???
Israel has done nothing but brake laws since 1948...
Now I, unlike Iran, am not asking for us to destroy the country and annhilate all the jews, as this country has existed for more than 60 years, you can't just go and delete it now.. But when it comes to did it have the right to be founded in the first place, I remain firm in my view of NO!!! (Just as Italy can't go now and take over parts of Spain and France and say it used to belong to my ancestors, the Romans, it used to be a Roman empire...)
But since it would be unfair to Israelis who were born in Israel and know no other homeland than Israel, it would also be unreallistic because America will never allow that... There has to be a different solution, but frankly, call me pessimistic, but I don't think true peace will ever return to that place again..
Biblically speaking, Hez, apparently, Israel has no right to exist. They were a people, not a nation.
Look at the proof:
The promises made to Abraham, including the promise of the Land, will be inherited as an everlasting gift only by true, spiritual Israel, not disobedient, unbelieving Israel.
When Paul grieved over the lostness of so many Jews who were rejecting Jesus and were perishing, he said in verses 6-7, (or Romans 9) “It is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring.” In other words, the promises cannot be demanded by anyone just because he is Jewish. Jewish ethnicity has a place in God's plan, but it is not enough to secure anything. It does not in itself qualify a person to be an heir of the promise to Abraham and his offspring.
Romans 9:8 says it clearly: “It is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” Being born Jewish does not make one an heir of the promise—neither the promise of the Land nor any other promise.
This was plain in the Old Testament, and it was plain the teachings of Jesus. For example, in the terrible list of curses that God promised to bring on the people if they broke his covenant and forsook him was this:
“ And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
Throughout the history of Israel, covenant breaking and disobedience and idolatry disqualified Israel from the present divine right to the Land. (See also Daniel 9:4-7; Psalm 78:54-61.)
[DANIEL 9:4 to 7]
I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed: "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
"Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the men of Judah and people of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you
Psalm 78 is most compelling, if one doubted in any way that Israel did have a biblical right to exist:
Thus he brought them to the border of his holy land, to the hill country his right hand had taken.
55 He drove out nations before them and allotted their lands to them as an inheritance; he settled the tribes of Israel in their homes.
56 But they put God to the test and rebelled against the Most High; they did not keep his statutes.
57 Like their fathers they were disloyal and faithless, as unreliable as a faulty bow.
58 They angered him with their high places; they aroused his jealousy with their idols.
59 When God heard them, he was very angry; he rejected Israel completely.
60 He abandoned the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent he had set up among men.
Be careful not to infer from this that Gentile nations (like Arabs) have the right to molest Israel. God's judgments on Israel do not sanction human sin against Israel. Israel still has human rights among nations even when she forfeits her present divine right to the Land. Remember that nations which gloated over her divine discipline were punished by God (Isaiah 10:5-13; Joel 3:2).
So the promise to Abraham that his descendants will inherit the Land does not mean that all Jews inherit that promise. It will come finally to the true Israel, the Israel that keeps covenant and obeys her God.
Jesus Christ has come into the world as the Jewish Messiah, and his own people rejected him and broke covenant with their God.
When Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do you say that I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ [that is, the Jewish Messiah], the Son of the living God.” And Jesus responded to him, “ Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:16-17). And when the high priest asked Jesus, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus answered, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:61-62).
But even though Jesus was the Messiah and did many mighty works and taught with great authority and fulfilled Old Testament promises, nevertheless the people of Israel as a whole rejected him. This was the most serious covenant-breaking disobedience that Israel had ever committed in all her history.
This is why Jesus told the parable of the tenants who killed the Landlord's son when he came for his harvest, and ended that parable with these words to Israel in Matthew 21:43, “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” And it's why he said in Matthew 8:11-12, after seeing the faith of a Gentile centurion and the unbelief of Israel, “Many [Gentiles] will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Israel has broken covenant with her God and is living today in disobedience and unbelief in his Son and her Messiah. That is why Paul says in Romans 11:28, “As regards the gospel [the good news of the Messiah] they are enemies of God.”
--------------------------
These were the contemplations of a Christian Pastor and Theologian. I take no credit in just pasting them on here, but I only added the bible verses that he mentioned and also the bold quotes to highlight the important points (in case someone wanted the crux of the story).
However, my own personal point of view is this:
If Israelis seem to feel they are God's chosen, all I can tell you is that the State of Israel has the highest level of immorality and suicides recorded in the Middle East. You'd think being a people of "God" that they'd be holy in some way? Right? Do you know it has the highest number of brothels in the world? It is the ONLY country in the Middle East to sell pornographic magazines - off the shelf.
So, these people, who Christ says "I do not know you" to, are adamently trying to show Christians that somehow we have something in common. that we are from the same origin. The same patriarchs. But we have to faithful to Our Lord Jesus Christ who clearly said in John chap. 8, that they are NOT descendants of Abraham, but descendants of the devil.
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]"
39"Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."
The Children of the Devil 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
Frankly speaking, if Christ Himself is calling them the children of the devil, why do people object of theories that suggest they are the beast in Revelations 13? I say, if the shoe fits, it must belong to them.
Dear QT_PA_2T, pardon me if I am wrong, but you sound like having some hatred towards Israelites. Where did it come from?
You know, we learn from history that all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor of Spain, the Nazi Reich were severely punished. The Bible tells us about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it. Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims. Arab nations should pay attention to what has happened in history, learn from it and stop their hostility towards Israel, otherwise they will suffer severe consequences.
By the way, if the Philistines we know from the Bible are the present-day-Palestinians, they don't seem to be indigeneous to Israel. Both The Bible and Archaeological evidence show that the Philistines are the so-called occupiers (Sea Peoples) who had their origin in Crete and Cyprus.
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7449.msg98845#msg98845 date=1230547924] Dear QT_PA_2T, pardon me if I am wrong, but you sound like having some hatred towards Israelites. Where did it come from?
You know, we learn from history that all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor of Spain, the Nazi Reich were severely punished. The Bible tells us about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it. Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims. Arab nations should pay attention to what has happened in history, learn from it and stop their hostility towards Israel, otherwise they will suffer severe consequences.
By the way, if the Philistines we know from the Bible are the present-day-Palestinians, they don't seem to be indigeneous to Israel. Both The Bible and Archaeological evidence show that the Philistines are the so-called occupiers (Sea Peoples) who had their origin in Crete and Cyprus.
Oh yes those poor Jews living in poor Israel, truly the victim...
COME ON!!! It's Israel that should stop its hostility toward the Palestinians!!!
Have you not been following the news! Are the lives of more than 300 people of whom some are innocent men, women and children worth nothing to you???!!! Or what about the Lebanese casualties of last year's war ???!!!How can you not see, it's Israel that's hostile, Israel is the source of the problem not everyone else!!!!
Btw, I have nothing against jews, as in followers of the Jewish religion, I do have something against the illegally founded country of Israel which some jews claim to have some divine right to...
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7449.msg98845#msg98845 date=1230547924] Dear QT_PA_2T, pardon me if I am wrong, but you sound like having some hatred towards Israelites. Where did it come from?
That's totally wrong to judge me. My thread is based on asking whether Israel has a right to exist - BIBLICALLY or THEOLOGICALLY. In no way do I support any attrocities against the jewish people. If this thread goes beyond talking about things in a theological perspective, I do believe it would not be wise for this site.
You know, we learn from history that all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor of Spain, the Nazi Reich were severely punished. The Bible tells us about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it.
We are now the adopted sons of God. They rejected Jesus Christ. In John, chapter 8, Christ clearly tells them that they are sons of the devil. That they maybe biological descendants of Abraham, but they have NOTHING IN COMMON with Him. Had they been of Abraham, they'd have acted like Abraham. They'd have honoured Christ who was sent by God, but instead, they did not accept Christ as their Messiah, and Savior.
Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims. Arab nations should pay attention to what has happened in history, learn from it and stop their hostility towards Israel, otherwise they will suffer severe consequences.
I'm sorry, but you are deviating from the topic, and I do not wish to change this into anything political. Just religious. Whether Israel has a right to exist - Theologically? The Orthodox jews themselves who follow the Torah are against the creation of a jewish state as they see it going against God's will. They see it as if because they were disobedient, they forfeited their right to the land. Yet, on the other hand, there are ignorant and dangerous evangelical christians, who believe that unless Palestine is given to jews and only for jews then they are not doing God's will.
To make things clear - for the sake of it, I hate what happened to the jews in the holocaust. It was regrettable. However, nothing happened to the German nation after the War. In fact, they became the richest and most powerful country in Europe after the war. even till this day, the Germans have one of the World's most strongest and powerful economies.
I have nothing against anybody. You sound as if you are living in the Old Testament. The New Testament teaches us that Christians who believe and are baptised are the inheritors of the land - and it is a spiritual land at that... not some small piece of land in the middle of nowhere.
By the way, if the Philistines we know from the Bible are the present-day-Palestinians, they don't seem to be indigeneous to Israel. Both The Bible and Archaeological evidence show that the Philistines are the so-called occupiers (Sea Peoples) who had their origin in Crete and Cyprus.
Did you read ANY of my proof (BIBLICAL PROOF) given against the jews being the inheritors of this land? Please discuss this instead. Stick to the Biblical proof.
I am personally for ANYONE's right to exist. I don't want to sound careless, nor uncaring, but I am distant from this war between Israel and Palestine. But, my concern is the theological importance for us as Christians who seem to think that jews are still entitled to this land. This ignorance, on behalf of many Christians, is causing a lot of policies in the middle east to be made that is causing needless hatred in the name of ignorant religious zealousness.
Please, for peace sake, read the biblical proofs i've given in the previous post to this one, and either confirm that, or disprove it with more proofs, but you haven't mentioned any proof whatsoever backing the theological right for israel to exist.
See, the theological right for us to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven is given in the Bible. I can give you 100000's of proofs in the Bible that state that to be saved, one must believe, be baptised, do good deeds, believe in Christ, etc. etc.. and then you will be called Children of God and inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Theologicaly speaking, if we follow Christ's commandments we should be entitled to an everlasting inheritance.
In the same way, theologically speaking, what should jews who do not believe in Christ inherit?
The Israelis were a people, not a land. Israelis are the geneological descendants of the Patriarchs. But their generations lived in Canaan which later became Palestine. It ONLY became Israel in 1948.
QT_,
I think u answer your own question here. Although, I think u should say Israel is a people not a land. I liked the youtube video with the Jew. He said it!- others are userpers and have no right to call themselves Israelis. In the Gospel of St. Luke 2:25-32; we read about Simeon. He waited for the Consolation of Israel. He said: "for my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel." Then Christ Himself said "who is my Mother, my brother my sister?" Those people who follow Christs teachings as is written in the Holy Scriptures. There is a sermon on the 3 different relationships between parent and child......the natural one, the adoptive one and the one of Essence. Even though we are not all natural or even adoptive children of God; through Christ our Lord and Savior we have been given the very special gift to be Christ's brother or sister, to carry His very essence with us if we follow Him!
So, I agree with the Jew here and say we should not even consider those people as Israel.
As said before, Israelis are using their former status of slaughter as a shield from global discipline. They never had a right to force the Palestinians off of their land merely because they were hurt. If Billy punched Bob in the face and Bob wanted Jim's toys in compensation is that fair? No. It is the same situation. Theoligcally speaking, The Israeli who supports their existance in Israel is wrong, but the Israeli who sees the Jews' mistake in crucifying Jesus, as BIBLICALLY WRITTEN, and accepts Him as our Saviour, he is saved.
You mean about the fact that they (Israel) were only a people, not a country? Yes, but, if you look at how I wrote it, i just realised it half-way through this thread. Where in the Bible does it say the land of Israel? God only promises to give these jews land and promises to take it away should they be disobedient.
Although, I think u should say Israel is a people not a land.
I'll think about that and get back to you.
I liked the youtube video with the Jew. He said it!- others are userpers and have no right to call themselves Israelis.
That's the strangest thing in all this... the Orthodox jews should know very well what their entitlement is? You agree? They confirm that it is going against God's will that creating a Zionist State is in fact against God's will.
In the Gospel of St. Luke 2:25-32; we read about Simeon. He waited for the Consolation of Israel. He said: "for my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel."
Brilliant Example!! That's great. I didnt think of that, although I knew it (it happens to be the introduction to one of the most favourite hymns of Coptic Christians: Shere Maria - Long Tune).
This is why I see the importance of having inter-religious dialogues - first and foremost amongst ourselves as Copts - to prove that Christ IS our Salvation, and our inheritance is spiritual. Secondly, amongst other denominations who are causing attrocities by supporting policies on ignorant driven agendas that are being shaped and formulated by Evangelical Christian leaders who advocate a jewish Israeli state for them to be saved. Again, please see videos of John Hagee... tell me what you think.
So, I agree with the Jew here and say we should not even consider those people as Israel.
I agree also. The only person left to convince is Hezekiel.
I didn't mean to judge you, dear QT_PA_2T. Sorry! But please be your own judge, first your question sounds like a rhetoric question, and then you call all the Jews who the Almighty God call „My People“ children of Devil. How is it possible, brother? Do you call the Muslims in the same breath as children of Satan, because they too are anti-Christ, and they are ordered to kill Christians and Jews....? Sorry for being political... but I think Orthodoxy is about everything.
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7449.msg98884#msg98884 date=1230650979] I didn't mean to judge you, dear QT_PA_2T. Sorry! But please be your own judge, first your question sounds like a rhetoric question,
Not at all.. the question started out as a concern, in theological terms, of what the differences between us and the evangelical christians are. It is purely theological. My concern over the fact that many of us are privy to evangelical hype and we believe it easily because perhaps we are not sure of our own theological or biblical knowledge correctly that we can just take what they say as the gospel truth. This fact may have affected the way I pose the question... but look at the result. Look..
Can you not see that theologically speaking, Israel has no right to exist? And yet, Evangelical Christians are on a rampage of ignorance preaching to their congregation and us too (if we have cable or satellite TV) that unless we support Zionism, we are not saved!!!
and then you call all the Jews who the Almighty God call „My People“ children of Devil.
God is calling them the DEVIL!! Jesus Christ is calling them the devil.
Read JOHN CHAPTER 8!! Wow. You're remarkable man.
Christ is telling them that IF YOU WERE SONS OF ABRAHAM YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM AND YOU WOULD HONOUR ME BECAUSE GOD SENT ME, BUT INSTEAD YOU JUST WANT TO KILL ME, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER IS THE DEVIL.
CHRIST IS TELLING THEM THAT THEY ARE SONS OF THE DEVIL. What is your problem with me?? I'm just quoting a passage from the Bible.
How is it possible, brother? Do you call the Muslims in the same breath as children of Satan, because they too are anti-Christ, and they are ordered to kill Christians and Jews....? Sorry for being political... but I think Orthodoxy is about everything.
Not at all.. and I find that very wrong to call anyone the anti-Christ. Islam has no place in this discussion - and I refuse to be part of any discussion of ANY other religion other than my own. Christ is telling the BIOLOGICAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM that they having NOTHING to do with ABRAHAM, but they have more in common with Satan. Muslims, God bless them, and all other gentiles with them, are not the biological descendants of Israel. Our judgement, and theirs too, as gentiles, will be different than those who were the chosen people of God.
Read John 8.0 and tell me WHO WAS CHRIST TALKING TO WHEN HE SAID THAT "YOU ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF SATAN!"
Christ is basically denying them their inheritance.
Why don't you just explain to us John chapter 8 and tell us what you think it means? For me, it seemed pretty clear Mel.
The problem is this (or the problem started out this way:)
Now we know theologically and Biblically that the inheritance of the promised land is for the obedient and spiritual Israel, not for the disbelieving and sinful Israel, then to see why I am so concerned, please read the articles of Evangelists such has John Hagee and Pat Robertson.
These people seem only to be evangelising to their flock the need to support zionism. Their entire theology - or theological-sense has nothing in common with us in this respect, nor with Orthodox Jews.
Put the Israel-Palestine conflict aside. I'm not really interested in that, and neither is tasbeha.org. Let's keep this related to our faith:
We have our Salvation through Jesus Christ who accepted us as co-heirs with Him in heaven. He clothed us in a garment of righteousness, and allowed us to be citizens of His Kingdom. This is the basic Christian knowledge. But if we start to testify that the jews, who are disbelievers have a right to a land, we mock the suffering of Christ who was rejected by the jews. We trivialize the fact that He was rejected by His own, and yet we tell others that such rejection still merits the promise God made to Abraham? We belittle or devalue the seriousness of their disobedience to their Messiah. We forget that Christ Himself said that those of us who are not wearing this garment of righteousness will be thrown out of the wedding, into utter darkness!!!
Spiritually speaking, is testifying that a zionist state is part of God's will doing any justice to the price Christ paid for our salvation? Is it doing justice to our faith?
The entire conflict in the M.East has been attributed by some to the ignrance driven rampage being carried out by such evangelists.
We can all be ignorant at one time in our lives, and we only pay the price for our own folly or ignorance, but when an American becomes ignorant, somehow the consequences are disasterous for the entire world not just for their salvation.
Such disasterous doctrine has to be corrected. These are not Jehovah's witnesses nor Mormons, these are American protestants.
Comments
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/165_Israel_Palestine_and_the_Middle_East/
THere is nothing more compelling than this.
As I said, ignorant baptists, evangelicals etc think honestly that anyone jewish is the rightful owner of a piece of land that they never even lived in, because God told them so!!!
These ignorant baptists... they are those that taught your world leaders in the USA.
THis brigitte gabriel person is so annoying. Her hatred for islam greatly outweights her heart's desire for righteousness. She doesnt mention whether the occupation of Palestine is justified, but she says that she prefers the kindness of the jews more than the treatment of the palestinians.
As a Christian, we have more in common with Judaism (as a religion) than with Islam, and as a people, we have also suffered more from Islam than from Judaism, but as a Christian, we must be impartial. We must love righteousness and truth, whether it favours those we hate or those we love. We have to be just like God is Just. His sun shines on the good and bad.
From a few incidences, she forgets the reason why the palestinians are at war, and just remembers the nice gestures of the jews.
Well, let me tell you: as a Coptic Christian, i have only bad memories of priests and deacons. NO GOOD memories. Coptic Priests and monks made my life so miserable. I think they are in HELL!!!!!! But I hope they are not.
Does these bad experiences mean i should be a jew or forget my religion? not at all.
I can't believe this, they call themselves 'christian' (!!!!!!!!) action for Israel ??
http://christianactionforisrael.org/attitudes.html
ok, you know that topic about anger??? If you think you have reached some way to not get angry, this site might be a great place to test it...
Darn.. those baptists are just so lost. You see where all these problems come from?
EVERY SINGLE U.S president had a pastor. His personal spiritual guru. And how many of those pastors had the same opinion as those baptists in the link you sent?
And people wonder why there is no peace?? Because they think they are doing God's will, but in fact are really misled.
Biblically speaking, who does this land belong to?
To the Jews! Judea and Samaria are mentioned in the bible as areas that belong to the Jews. As I said earlier, the term Jew is derived from the name Judea .So the Jews come from there and not and Palestinians.There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture ,language different from that of all the Arabs . There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians at all times. There is also no evidence to suggest that the 'Philistine people' that are mentioned in the OT are the same as the present day Palestinians.To me, the present day Palestinians are simply as arab muslims as the rest Arabs in the Middle East, because much of the Arab population in this area migrated into the Jewish territory of Israel, Judea and Samaria in the past 100 -150 years.Prior to that time, when the Ottoman empire had the control, most of the land was sparsley populated.
The question is not whether Israel has the right to exist or not, but that the majority Muslim Arab countries are a major impediment to the emergence of a Palestinian state. History has proven the 22 Arab league countries as worthless and dysfunctional that do not amount to anything ,let alone face the tiny dedicated Jewish state. Israel is there to STAY,period. The Arab world, the powers that be ,-should better swallow their pride and worthless empty rethoric and leave the Palestinian people handle their own cause.
Can you do me a huge favour?
Please?
Can you just go here and read the articles here and then post in this section?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Or go to youtube and go here: http://www.youtube.com/user/representativepress
& see ALL his videos.
SUBSCRIBE TO THIS CHANNEL. Please. PLEASE!!
Hezekiel,
Can you do me a huge favour?
Please?
Can you just go here and read the articles here and then post in this section?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Or go to youtube and go here: http://www.youtube.com/user/representativepress
& see ALL his videos.
SUBSCRIBE TO THIS CHANNEL. Please. PLEASE!!
Hi QT,
Your original Q to which I replied what Ï know best was ,"biblically speaking, who does this land belong to? ". The link you gave does not answer this question. I am aware of what is going on, but that does not alter biblical or historical facts as I understand them.
The Youtube link seems to have stories that I am well acquainted with. I am no fun of the current US administration. It has decimated close to 1 million Iraqis since 2003 and has taken the US down the drain, to say the least. Successive US administrations have not only done injustice and caused destruction to the Palestinian people , but basically every country in the world has its own story to tell. However, these topics are less related to the question posed initially.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98399#msg98399 date=1229420805]
Biblically speaking, who does this land belong to?
To the Jews! Judea and Samaria are mentioned in the bible as areas that belong to the Jews. As I said earlier, the term Jew is derived from the name Judea .So the Jews come from there and not and Palestinians.There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture ,language different from that of all the Arabs . There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians at all times. There is also no evidence to suggest that the 'Philistine people' that are mentioned in the OT are the same as the present day Palestinians.To me, the present day Palestinians are simply as arab muslims as the rest Arabs in the Middle East, because much of the Arab population in this area migrated into the Jewish territory of Israel, Judea and Samaria in the past 100 -150 years.Prior to that time, when the Ottoman empire had the control, most of the land was sparsley populated.
The question is not whether Israel has the right to exist or not, but that the majority Muslim Arab countries are a major impediment to the emergence of a Palestinian state. History has proven the 22 Arab league countries as worthless and dysfunctional that do not amount to anything ,let alone face the tiny dedicated Jewish state. Israel is there to STAY,period. The Arab world, the powers that be ,-should better swallow their pride and worthless empty rethoric and leave the Palestinian people handle their own cause.
I don't know when QT said BIBLICALLY speaking, I thought he meant as in the teachings of the Bible, now where in the teachings of the Bible does it say Israel has the right to exist (thus kill Palestinians and take away their homes from them and make their lives hell...)
What you said Hezekiel implies that you agree that the jews have more right to this piece of land than the Palestinians... unless I misunderstood you or I misunderstood the initial question by QT
of course israel has the right to exist. In the bible the Israelites were God's chosen people and even Jesus was an Israelite.
Exactly the Israelites WERE God's chosen poeple until they refused His Son the Saviour...
God bless you
Please pray for my weakness
The Israelis were a people, not a land. Israelis are the geneological descendants of the Patriarchs. But their generations lived in Canaan which later became Palestine. It ONLY became Israel in 1948.
I think Americans are going to war for the personal agenda of Israel. They are oblivious to this. Israelis control not only the White House, but the Press. How far have we been influenced? This is ongoing and very serious.
I made it clear, or at least I thought I made it clear, that it is apparent there are evangelical Christians who are proponents of Israel's existance, and by making the land jewish, they THINK they are enforcing God's will.
Their interpretation of the Bible is one that seems to have a political agenda, and not based on correct theology.
The question :"Does Israel have the right to exist" - asks whether its right is biblical or spiritual?
Sure, everyone has a right to exist.. i'm not disputing that, and God bless everyone who exists, even my cat.
But as Coptic Christians, do we believe that to be good christians - we have to promote zionism?
Is this correct? I was under the impression that because the jews were disobedient, they forfeited the inheritance of this land. Furthermore, we believe that the Holy Land that we inherit is in heaven (as far as I know).
I don't know if you are aware, but there are huge, well financed christian organisations, that are preaching zionism. I mean, we are talking about Churches, pastors, etc..
If you need any examples, look at John Hagee, and other tele-evangelists.
Theologically speaking, does Israel have a RIGHT to exist?
If I said to you "Is Christ the Son of God" - would you answer and say "who are we to judge"?
I'm asking the question (does Israel have a right to exist) in a theological context. I am not judging whether people (jews/muslims etc) have a right to exist - the answer is clear: YES THEY DO HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST. OF COURSE!!!!
But, does the idea of israel being created as a jewish state somehow respect any Christian theological teaching, that it is in fact God's will that the land is jewish and owned by jews because it was promised to them?
I don't know when QT said BIBLICALLY speaking, I thought he meant as in the teachings of the Bible, now where in the teachings of the Bible does it say Israel has the right to exist (thus kill Palestinians and take away their homes from them and make their lives hell...)
What you said Hezekiel implies that you agree that the jews have more right to this piece of land than the Palestinians... unless I misunderstood you or I misunderstood the initial question by QT
Hi Godislove260,
The original question to which I replied is below: Bibilically, the land belongs to the Jews! Israel was divided into two Kingdoms, Israel and Judah.King David was the king of ISRAEL. When the Babylonian invaded the Kingdom of Israel,they destroyed it whereas the Kingdom of Judah was spared. The Jews derive their name from Judah (yuhuda).This point should actually settle the question.
There has always been a continous Jewish presence in what is now known as Israel since the days of Abraham.Despite mass expulsion of Jews from Palestine at te hands of the Babylonians and the Romans , Jewsih presence continued under Roman, Byzantine,Ottoman and british rule until the establishment of Israel in the 1940's.They are the only Middle Eastern people who preserved the original language of their forfathers. Wherever you go, you find them at the highest rung of social ladder.I have nothing, but only admiration for them.
The people who call themselves Palestinians draw their culture from the arrival of the Arabic people in the 7th century when Muslims were in the mood of invading countries .Palestinians are simply arabs in accordance with the Arab culture.There is nothing in the Holy Bible that talks about them.Thus, biblically speaking, The land belongs to the Jews.
As to the Q, if Israel has the right to exist or not, that is non-sense. Israel has shamed all Arab countries time and again, including gaint Egypt.If it was according to the wish of arab muslims, Israel should have been wiped out a long time ago.However, the tiny nation has shown them that it is there to stay. Remember, that Arab musims are concernd with the Palestinian cause,only because they are Muslims. If the Palestinians were Christians or non-muslims, the story would be different.Most of the small percentage of the Palestinian Christians( they are Catholics) do prefer to take an Israeli citizenship,because they know they will be treated as second class under the Palestinian Authorities. Also, never forget that, you can not understand Christianity without understanding Judaism. In other words, our christianity is a sort of completed Judaism. Thus, you should not wonder why the West stands with Israel and the Arabs with the Palestinians.
The nation of Israel has survived against all odds and It has asserted herself in the region. The Arab Muslim governments should be wise and recognize it as a state, so that the oppressed Palestinian people could a peaceful solution. The Arabs themselves are the greatest hurdle to a peaceful settlement.Until such time, the Israeli governement would use every excuse in the book to continue its ill treatment towards them.
I do not condone the atrocities that are committed by the Jewish government against the Palestinian people ,but I will support the existance of Israel, for they have the right to a nation like everybody else. I simple reject the Arab mentality that aims to destroy them. At the same time, I wish the Palestinian cause would be settled without further bloodshed.
Firstly, yes the ancient Israel, is something, but this is NOT the modern day Israel, which was founded ILLEGALLY and without any RIGHT!!! It was founded upon the blood of the Palestinians (by the way, many of whom are Jews who converted to Islam through the ages, and thus are not Arabs and it seems to me you have something against Arabs, which might very well be, but JUSTICE IS JUSTICE it knows no nationality or religion) who were killed and thrown out of their houses so the jewish settlers could take their homes and move in rightaway... SO NO, ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST, definitly NOT A BIBLICAL OR NON-BIBLICAL RIGHT!!! as they went in diaspora in 70 AD after emperor Titus had defeated them and destroyed their temple, and since then the country has never belonged to jews (although I agree, some jews stayed and didn't go in diaspora)
You say you have admiration for the jews, I don't hate the jews, but I don't admire a people who because they suffered during the holocaust take that as an excuse to do anything they like.. They are not the only people that suffered, but it's disgusting to see how they (or at least many of them) use that to accuse anyone who is against what they are doing with anti-semitism... Always playing the role of the innocent victims and fueling that in the minds of many so they would feel sympathy for what they are doing now..
The jews (of whom many are rich) are like that because in the Middleages, catholic antisemitism forbade them to own any land and treated them terrible, for they were considered the killers of Christ (yet their influence is so great nowadays, that they got the Catholic pope to actually remove that guilt from them).. so instead of real-estate, they became interested in trade, especially the Portugal jews (Portugal and Spain being wealthy trade countries) were very rich.. The diamond business in Europe is in the jews' hands for the majority..
Nowadays in the States , the jews enjoy a lot of sympathy, not just because of the presence of extremist-evangelical groups, but because they hold a lot of wealth..
This tiny country, did defeat the Arabs (48 - 67) this was also due to faults on the side of the Arabs themselves. But it is a fact that the jews receive aid, they didn't just do it all by themselves...
Oh and about the arabs supporting Palestine just because they are muslims, yes, probably the fact that they are muslims give a whole different dimension to the story, but don't forget that many christians (in Egypt, Lebanon, ) are also against Israel, simply because it was founded UNRIGHTFULLY. And look at the attrocities Israel continues to commit, did you forget the war on Lebanon recently???? Where both muslims and christians died???
Israel has done nothing but brake laws since 1948...
Now I, unlike Iran, am not asking for us to destroy the country and annhilate all the jews, as this country has existed for more than 60 years, you can't just go and delete it now..
But when it comes to did it have the right to be founded in the first place, I remain firm in my view of NO!!! (Just as Italy can't go now and take over parts of Spain and France and say it used to belong to my ancestors, the Romans, it used to be a Roman empire...)
But since it would be unfair to Israelis who were born in Israel and know no other homeland than Israel, it would also be unreallistic because America will never allow that...
There has to be a different solution, but frankly, call me pessimistic, but I don't think true peace will ever return to that place again..
God bless you
Please pray for me
For every argument you've given, here is a testimony from jews who counter your arguments.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jew2jew.html
Biblically speaking, Hez, apparently, Israel has no right to exist. They were a people, not a nation.
Look at the proof:
The promises made to Abraham, including the promise of the Land, will be inherited as an everlasting gift only by true, spiritual Israel, not disobedient, unbelieving Israel.
When Paul grieved over the lostness of so many Jews who were rejecting Jesus and were perishing, he said in verses 6-7, (or Romans 9) “It is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring.” In other words, the promises cannot be demanded by anyone just because he is Jewish. Jewish ethnicity has a place in God's plan, but it is not enough to secure anything. It does not in itself qualify a person to be an heir of the promise to Abraham and his offspring.
Romans 9:8 says it clearly: “It is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” Being born Jewish does not make one an heir of the promise—neither the promise of the Land nor any other promise.
This was plain in the Old Testament, and it was plain the teachings of Jesus. For example, in the terrible list of curses that God promised to bring on the people if they broke his covenant and forsook him was this:
“ And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
Throughout the history of Israel, covenant breaking and disobedience and idolatry disqualified Israel from the present divine right to the Land. (See also Daniel 9:4-7; Psalm 78:54-61.)
[DANIEL 9:4 to 7]
Psalm 78 is most compelling, if one doubted in any way that Israel did have a biblical right to exist: Be careful not to infer from this that Gentile nations (like Arabs) have the right to molest Israel. God's judgments on Israel do not sanction human sin against Israel. Israel still has human rights among nations even when she forfeits her present divine right to the Land. Remember that nations which gloated over her divine discipline were punished by God (Isaiah 10:5-13; Joel 3:2).
So the promise to Abraham that his descendants will inherit the Land does not mean that all Jews inherit that promise. It will come finally to the true Israel, the Israel that keeps covenant and obeys her God.
Jesus Christ has come into the world as the Jewish Messiah, and his own people rejected him and broke covenant with their God.
When Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do you say that I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ [that is, the Jewish Messiah], the Son of the living God.” And Jesus responded to him, “ Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:16-17). And when the high priest asked Jesus, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus answered, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:61-62).
But even though Jesus was the Messiah and did many mighty works and taught with great authority and fulfilled Old Testament promises, nevertheless the people of Israel as a whole rejected him. This was the most serious covenant-breaking disobedience that Israel had ever committed in all her history.
This is why Jesus told the parable of the tenants who killed the Landlord's son when he came for his harvest, and ended that parable with these words to Israel in Matthew 21:43, “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” And it's why he said in Matthew 8:11-12, after seeing the faith of a Gentile centurion and the unbelief of Israel, “Many [Gentiles] will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Israel has broken covenant with her God and is living today in disobedience and unbelief in his Son and her Messiah. That is why Paul says in Romans 11:28, “As regards the gospel [the good news of the Messiah] they are enemies of God.”
--------------------------
These were the contemplations of a Christian Pastor and Theologian. I take no credit in just pasting them on here, but I only added the bible verses that he mentioned and also the bold quotes to highlight the important points (in case someone wanted the crux of the story).
However, my own personal point of view is this:
If Israelis seem to feel they are God's chosen, all I can tell you is that the State of Israel has the highest level of immorality and suicides recorded in the Middle East. You'd think being a people of "God" that they'd be holy in some way? Right? Do you know it has the highest number of brothels in the world? It is the ONLY country in the Middle East to sell pornographic magazines - off the shelf.
So, these people, who Christ says "I do not know you" to, are adamently trying to show Christians that somehow we have something in common. that we are from the same origin. The same patriarchs. But we have to faithful to Our Lord Jesus Christ who clearly said in John chap. 8, that they are NOT descendants of Abraham, but descendants of the devil.
Frankly speaking, if Christ Himself is calling them the children of the devil, why do people object of theories that suggest they are the beast in Revelations 13? I say, if the shoe fits, it must belong to them.
You know, we learn from history that all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor of Spain, the Nazi Reich were severely punished. The Bible tells us about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it. Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims. Arab nations should pay attention to what has happened in history, learn from it and stop their hostility towards Israel, otherwise they will suffer severe consequences.
By the way, if the Philistines we know from the Bible are the present-day-Palestinians, they don't seem to be indigeneous to Israel. Both The Bible and Archaeological evidence show that the Philistines are the so-called occupiers (Sea Peoples) who had their origin in Crete and Cyprus.
Dear QT_PA_2T, pardon me if I am wrong, but you sound like having some hatred towards Israelites. Where did it come from?
You know, we learn from history that all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor of Spain, the Nazi Reich were severely punished. The Bible tells us about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it. Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims. Arab nations should pay attention to what has happened in history, learn from it and stop their hostility towards Israel, otherwise they will suffer severe consequences.
By the way, if the Philistines we know from the Bible are the present-day-Palestinians, they don't seem to be indigeneous to Israel. Both The Bible and Archaeological evidence show that the Philistines are the so-called occupiers (Sea Peoples) who had their origin in Crete and Cyprus.
Oh yes those poor Jews living in poor Israel, truly the victim...
COME ON!!! It's Israel that should stop its hostility toward the Palestinians!!!
Have you not been following the news! Are the lives of more than 300 people of whom some are innocent men, women and children worth nothing to you???!!! Or what about the Lebanese casualties of last year's war ???!!!How can you not see, it's Israel that's hostile, Israel is the source of the problem not everyone else!!!!
Btw, I have nothing against jews, as in followers of the Jewish religion, I do have something against the illegally founded country of Israel which some jews claim to have some divine right to...
God bless
Dear QT_PA_2T, pardon me if I am wrong, but you sound like having some hatred towards Israelites. Where did it come from?
That's totally wrong to judge me. My thread is based on asking whether Israel has a right to exist - BIBLICALLY or THEOLOGICALLY. In no way do I support any attrocities against the jewish people. If this thread goes beyond talking about things in a theological perspective, I do believe it would not be wise for this site.
You know, we learn from history that all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor of Spain, the Nazi Reich were severely punished. The Bible tells us about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it.
We are now the adopted sons of God. They rejected Jesus Christ. In John, chapter 8, Christ clearly tells them that they are sons of the devil. That they maybe biological descendants of Abraham, but they have NOTHING IN COMMON with Him. Had they been of Abraham, they'd have acted like Abraham. They'd have honoured Christ who was sent by God, but instead, they did not accept Christ as their Messiah, and Savior.
Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims. Arab nations should pay attention to what has happened in history, learn from it and stop their hostility towards Israel, otherwise they will suffer severe consequences.
I'm sorry, but you are deviating from the topic, and I do not wish to change this into anything political. Just religious. Whether Israel has a right to exist - Theologically? The Orthodox jews themselves who follow the Torah are against the creation of a jewish state as they see it going against God's will. They see it as if because they were disobedient, they forfeited their right to the land. Yet, on the other hand, there are ignorant and dangerous evangelical christians, who believe that unless Palestine is given to jews and only for jews then they are not doing God's will.
To make things clear - for the sake of it, I hate what happened to the jews in the holocaust. It was regrettable. However, nothing happened to the German nation after the War. In fact, they became the richest and most powerful country in Europe after the war. even till this day, the Germans have one of the World's most strongest and powerful economies.
I have nothing against anybody. You sound as if you are living in the Old Testament. The New Testament teaches us that Christians who believe and are baptised are the inheritors of the land - and it is a spiritual land at that... not some small piece of land in the middle of nowhere.
Did you read ANY of my proof (BIBLICAL PROOF) given against the jews being the inheritors of this land? Please discuss this instead. Stick to the Biblical proof.
I am personally for ANYONE's right to exist. I don't want to sound careless, nor uncaring, but I am distant from this war between Israel and Palestine. But, my concern is the theological importance for us as Christians who seem to think that jews are still entitled to this land. This ignorance, on behalf of many Christians, is causing a lot of policies in the middle east to be made that is causing needless hatred in the name of ignorant religious zealousness.
Please, for peace sake, read the biblical proofs i've given in the previous post to this one, and either confirm that, or disprove it with more proofs, but you haven't mentioned any proof whatsoever backing the theological right for israel to exist.
See, the theological right for us to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven is given in the Bible. I can give you 100000's of proofs in the Bible that state that to be saved, one must believe, be baptised, do good deeds, believe in Christ, etc. etc.. and then you will be called Children of God and inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Theologicaly speaking, if we follow Christ's commandments we should be entitled to an everlasting inheritance.
In the same way, theologically speaking, what should jews who do not believe in Christ inherit?
Hangon,
The Israelis were a people, not a land. Israelis are the geneological descendants of the Patriarchs. But their generations lived in Canaan which later became Palestine. It ONLY became Israel in 1948.
QT_,
I think u answer your own question here. Although, I think u should say Israel is a people not a land.
I liked the youtube video with the Jew. He said it!- others are userpers and have no right to call themselves Israelis.
In the Gospel of St. Luke 2:25-32; we read about Simeon. He waited for the Consolation of Israel. He said: "for my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel."
Then Christ Himself said "who is my Mother, my brother my sister?" Those people who follow Christs teachings as is written in the Holy Scriptures.
There is a sermon on the 3 different relationships between parent and child......the natural one, the adoptive one and the one of Essence. Even though we are not all natural or even adoptive children of God; through Christ our Lord and Savior we have been given the very special gift to be Christ's brother or sister, to carry His very essence with us if we follow Him!
So, I agree with the Jew here and say we should not even consider those people as Israel.
Giving all Glory and Honor to God!!!
QT_,
I think u answer your own question here.
You mean about the fact that they (Israel) were only a people, not a country? Yes, but, if you look at how I wrote it, i just realised it half-way through this thread. Where in the Bible does it say the land of Israel? God only promises to give these jews land and promises to take it away should they be disobedient. I'll think about that and get back to you. That's the strangest thing in all this... the Orthodox jews should know very well what their entitlement is? You agree? They confirm that it is going against God's will that creating a Zionist State is in fact against God's will.
Brilliant Example!! That's great. I didnt think of that, although I knew it (it happens to be the introduction to one of the most favourite hymns of Coptic Christians: Shere Maria - Long Tune).
This is why I see the importance of having inter-religious dialogues - first and foremost amongst ourselves as Copts - to prove that Christ IS our Salvation, and our inheritance is spiritual. Secondly, amongst other denominations who are causing attrocities by supporting policies on ignorant driven agendas that are being shaped and formulated by Evangelical Christian leaders who advocate a jewish Israeli state for them to be saved. Again, please see videos of John Hagee... tell me what you think. I agree also. The only person left to convince is Hezekiel.
I didn't mean to judge you, dear QT_PA_2T. Sorry! But please be your own judge, first your question sounds like a rhetoric question,
Not at all.. the question started out as a concern, in theological terms, of what the differences between us and the evangelical christians are. It is purely theological. My concern over the fact that many of us are privy to evangelical hype and we believe it easily because perhaps we are not sure of our own theological or biblical knowledge correctly that we can just take what they say as the gospel truth. This fact may have affected the way I pose the question... but look at the result. Look..
Can you not see that theologically speaking, Israel has no right to exist? And yet, Evangelical Christians are on a rampage of ignorance preaching to their congregation and us too (if we have cable or satellite TV) that unless we support Zionism, we are not saved!!!
and then you call all the Jews who the Almighty God call „My People“ children of Devil.
God is calling them the DEVIL!! Jesus Christ is calling them the devil.
Read JOHN CHAPTER 8!!
Wow. You're remarkable man.
Christ is telling them that IF YOU WERE SONS OF ABRAHAM YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM AND YOU WOULD HONOUR ME BECAUSE GOD SENT ME, BUT INSTEAD YOU JUST WANT TO KILL ME, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER IS THE DEVIL.
CHRIST IS TELLING THEM THAT THEY ARE SONS OF THE DEVIL. What is your problem with me?? I'm just quoting a passage from the Bible.
How is it possible, brother? Do you call the Muslims in the same breath as children of Satan, because they too are anti-Christ, and they are ordered to kill Christians and Jews....? Sorry for being political... but I think Orthodoxy is about everything.
Not at all.. and I find that very wrong to call anyone the anti-Christ. Islam has no place in this discussion - and I refuse to be part of any discussion of ANY other religion other than my own. Christ is telling the BIOLOGICAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM that they having NOTHING to do with ABRAHAM, but they have more in common with Satan. Muslims, God bless them, and all other gentiles with them, are not the biological descendants of Israel. Our judgement, and theirs too, as gentiles, will be different than those who were the chosen people of God.
Read John 8.0 and tell me WHO WAS CHRIST TALKING TO WHEN HE SAID THAT "YOU ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF SATAN!"
Christ is basically denying them their inheritance.
Why don't you just explain to us John chapter 8 and tell us what you think it means? For me, it seemed pretty clear Mel.
Now we know theologically and Biblically that the inheritance of the promised land is for the obedient and spiritual Israel, not for the disbelieving and sinful Israel, then to see why I am so concerned, please read the articles of Evangelists such has John Hagee and Pat Robertson.
These people seem only to be evangelising to their flock the need to support zionism. Their entire theology - or theological-sense has nothing in common with us in this respect, nor with Orthodox Jews.
Put the Israel-Palestine conflict aside. I'm not really interested in that, and neither is tasbeha.org. Let's keep this related to our faith:
We have our Salvation through Jesus Christ who accepted us as co-heirs with Him in heaven. He clothed us in a garment of righteousness, and allowed us to be citizens of His Kingdom. This is the basic Christian knowledge. But if we start to testify that the jews, who are disbelievers have a right to a land, we mock the suffering of Christ who was rejected by the jews. We trivialize the fact that He was rejected by His own, and yet we tell others that such rejection still merits the promise God made to Abraham? We belittle or devalue the seriousness of their disobedience to their Messiah. We forget that Christ Himself said that those of us who are not wearing this garment of righteousness will be thrown out of the wedding, into utter darkness!!!
Spiritually speaking, is testifying that a zionist state is part of God's will doing any justice to the price Christ paid for our salvation? Is it doing justice to our faith?
The entire conflict in the M.East has been attributed by some to the ignrance driven rampage being carried out by such evangelists.
We can all be ignorant at one time in our lives, and we only pay the price for our own folly or ignorance, but when an American becomes ignorant, somehow the consequences are disasterous for the entire world not just for their salvation.
Such disasterous doctrine has to be corrected. These are not Jehovah's witnesses nor Mormons, these are American protestants.