If someone is rude with me, I usually smirk. I usually ask questions pertaining to the rudeness, and speak in the second person to pervade alternative factors, hypotheses, scenarios.
I still say there should be a Priest Appreciation Day. It would be no different than Father's Day in the United States but geared towards the priest, solely.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10490.msg127409#msg127409 date=1295477616] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10490.msg127396#msg127396 date=1295467584] OK...explain this to me:
Saint Paul was arrested and put in prison for healing a woman who was possessed.
The fact that he healed her meant that her masters were losing income (because they made money from her condition).
Anyway, they quietly freed Saint Paul from prison - I think out of fear for some reason.
Saint Paul tells them: "No! I demand an apology! You put me in prison and accused me openly, and now you let me go quietly!!"
He demanded justice! He didnt go quietly at all.
We have rights!!
We insulted God's house by making it into a market...and selling stuff there...Christ, if I remember correctly, got angry and even demolished it. Why didnt He turn the other cheek if He was insulted???
Because you've misunderstood "Turn the other cheek"
That's different...when Christ was angry, it was for religious purposes...that's called "zeal"...getting angry because you were personally insulted is a different matter entirely.
I really don't know what to make of your comment.
The Bible says its OK to get ANGRY so long as you don't sin. Which part of that verse do you not understand?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10490.msg127403#msg127403 date=1295472452] Priests certainly do not need to be made celebrities, but priests are people too. And they also need encouragement. They need to be told that what they doing, often at great cost, is making a difference to others. They need to hear that a sermon or some spiritual word was useful. That people appreciate having their house blessed, or being prayed for some situation.
Not so that they feel proud, but so that they are strengthened and encouraged. Being a priest can be a very spiritually and personally exposed ministry.
Father Peter
Fr. Priests should be able to take both positive and negative criticism. Unfortunately, I have only known priests that are open to positive criticism. NO ONE dares to say anything negative... we are talking about SMALL things but serious stuff.
For example... we often end up with priests that do not speak English. We don't understand a word of their sermons. ITS ALWAYS in Arabic, and I find that this is a lack of respect towards the country they are in.. they are giving the wrong signals to the congregations that they are more united to Egypt than to whichever country they are living in, and they are preventing people from coming to Christ.
The FIRST gift given to the apostles WAS speaking in tongues so that they could preach the good news.
Yet, REMARKABLY, most of the priests and bishops (to some extent) are careless in this. We give them constant praise and reward for doing the masses, the sacraments etc.. but NO ONE is at all ready nor willing to ask them nicely to learn French or English.
EVERYONE dares not.
Now.. this shows a lot about the complements we are giving to them.
Why is it they are able to take complements and NOT criticism? Then when we give them complements, are we doing them a favour if we are unable to ask for our basic rights of understanding what is going on in the sermon???
I'm a customer in an agency that I'm paying. One of the accountants was extremely rude to me. I didn't raise my voice to attack her.. but because I was upset, I found myself raising my voice. However, I NEVER SAID ONE BAD WORD AT HER.
I mean, I never responded to her insults with an insult. I just told her that she had no right to be rude and what she did was very rude.
That's it.
Finally she apologised.
I COULD NOT, for the life of me, swear at her.
In fact, parents raise their voices to their children when they disbehave. But to sin is to swear at them in your heart. I didnt even do this. In fact, I left the agency with just an impression that they are over-expensive and unprofessional - NEITHER OF WHICH are sins.
If I think you are expensive, unprofessional, and you lack customer skills, there is NO sin in telling u that, NOR in me thinking that.
If I am treated with sheer rudeness on top of it, of course I'll raise my voice.
I think you are confusing two issues:
* Hatred and Anger.
Hatred begins in the heart, so it will come out one day. Its just a rudimentary sin that is waiting for the right climate to grow and show itself.
Anger is NOT a sin.
Coptic Christians are angry.. but they did nothing wrong.
I am angry when I see them humiliated in Egypt and being subjected to discrimination, but I don't feel AT ALL like attacking any muslim.
I would have left the meeting with the agency EXTREMELY in the wrong if I was rude back... whether I raised my voice or not.
When you are angry - do you raise your voice? This is not bad. Because it means that you've let out the stress.. its safer (for you) to be passionate openly than to keep the anger in and explode afterwards.
Let me give u an example of "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks":
Let's say in my heart, i have NO respect for someone, and I hate them.
If EVER we were to argue, I may have said "You're an idiot" , "I wish u dead", "You moron" "You are a pointless human being"
- all of which are sins. All the above are sins.
Let's say that someone upsets me, and I get angry. This could manifest itself in the following ways:
* I may frown * Raising of voice * Red in the face * raising of blood pressure
None of the above actions are sins.
When someone reaches the point of being angry, its harder to calm them down... but that's just social skills afterwards.
I think you have a right to be angry.. if you can be angry WITHOUT raising your voice, ALL THE BETTER FOR YOU!!!!
That much I will agree.
However, it may not be in your best interest to respond quietly everytime. You set a precedence on how people will treat you. You also want to show the other that you have rights, and you deserve to be treated with respect. If they do not see you as being upset, they will think that their behaviour towards you is acceptable. You definately do not want to give them that impression either!!!!
That's why I'm saying that its best if you can be angry WITHOUT raising your voice. You still have a right to be angry. And if you've done this to others, it simply means that you should be willing to forgive those who have insulted you in the New York minute!!
That's the way I see it anyway.
Its a weired subject because, I feel that raising your voice (although its not a sin), for some people, its still attacking them. Isn't it?
That's why I'm saying that its best if you can be angry WITHOUT raising your voice. You still have a right to be angry. And if you've done this to others, it simply means that you should be willing to forgive those who have insulted you in the New York minute!!
That's the way I see it anyway.
Its a weired subject because, I feel that raising your voice (although its not a sin), for some people, its still attacking them. Isn't it?
That's exactly why I'm against "raising" your voice...you might offend the person. I didn't raise my voice and neither was I angry with the lady...the best way is to make excuses for people's behavior...you never know if someone is having a really bad day or what's really wrong with them, why they're being so rude...
I would agree with u on that actually.
There was this priest that never swore. He just raised his voice. By the very fact of raising his voice, he wittingly (or unwittingly) managed to attack the person without sinning. lol.. smart aye!?
He was removed from 3 Churches.
He'd tell everyone "Hey! ITS THE WAY I AM, I JUST RAISE MY VOICE.. I HAVE A LOUD VOICE!"..
Well, he was so rude, and when he raised his voice, it was awful. If he misjudged you, he had ALREADY punished you BY raising his voice.. then if he had misjudged you, there would be no apology because well.. "that's just your fault for being upset with someone with a loud voice".
I didnt buy that.
I think u are right on this point. Maybe by me raising my voice to this particular person was taken in that way, but the way I see it, in this particular case (with the agency) - she was EXTREMELY rude.. I mean, shockingly rude.. so i felt I had the right to be angry.
So, this will lead us to ONE question:
HOW CAN YOU BE ANGRY WITHOUT RAISING YOUR VOICE!????
I make the following general remarks, which I have experienced and lived.
One can make comments of criticism and advice to the clerical fathers, as long as it is done in an approach of respect to a father. When one conducts themselves in a consistent manner of responsibility within the boundaries of proper conduct, one actually gains esteem from which to be able to offer further advice.
I will say that there are plenty of priests and bishops that call me to talk about different topics and dare I say the words, even to seek advice and perspective on different matters. They are assured of my complete confidence on the matter, because my mouth is never open to repeat anything, including certain aspects from His Holiness candor at issues for which I have been privy to over the years. One of the reasons of maintaining my anonymity is specifically not to foster a certain inflated and bloated regard for different things.
Dealing with a priest and bishop is no different than dealing with your own father. It has to be done with deep respect and love. They are truly not the ordinary person to be speaking to about matters. They are open to ideas.
The key aspect is you have to earn their respect.
No different than a father being nervous about their child venturing out on new experiences in life. They do so with trepidation and allow for more and more responsibility as they see more and more genuineness towards responsibility.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10490.msg127369#msg127369 date=1295454275] What's the big deal in making a priest a star? They resemble what is pure and holy, not what is thin and good looking.
They are supposed to be thin...that is, if they fast all 210 days plus the various Wednesday/Friday fasts... Unless of course, they are cheating and eating siyami cheese...lol
We look up to them. We imitate them. We learn how to live our lives from them.
Ok, but Jesus himself said, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Matt 5:45
The apostle Paul said: "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children". Eph 5:1 javascript:void(0); So if you have found a perfect, sinless mortal person, priest or layman, whom you can imitate, then by all means, go for it. Otherwise we should set our sights higher. I am not saying that no priest can be a star (GO ABOUNA THOMAS!!), but rather, being a priest does not automatically make a good or even godly person. Just look at all the religious hypocrites in the bible.
As for your statement "They resemble what is pure and holy"...they may resemble what is pure and holy but our Lord EMBODIES what is pure and good and holy. And to Him be the glory forever!!
By the way Zoxsasi, thanks for your reply to my other post, I am mulling it over...
Just had a read of the other posts, seems I have gone off on a very wide tangent lol...apologies! ::)
Before you waste breath trying to make issues of priest, etc., go fix all the slobs that hang outside the church trying to attract the girls that come out of the church, and the girls that do the reverse.
While you are at it, take care of the ones that go to the clubs, that smoke, booze it up, flying through every immorality. After you are finished with that whole menu of things, one can theorize and discuss the issues of the priests.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10490.msg127861#msg127861 date=1295742278] Leave the priests alone.
Before you waste breath trying to make issues of priest, etc., go fix all the slobs that hang outside the church trying to attract the girls that come out of the church, and the girls that do the reverse.
While you are at it, take care of the ones that go to the clubs, that smoke, booze it up, flying through every immorality. After you are finished with that whole menu of things, one can theorize and discuss the issues of the priests.
Leave the priests alone.
And then, maybe we can help remove the planks from one another's eyes? lol
i think anger is a first instinct. However, with practice & diligence it takes time. Its all about self control. Earlier this year, in one of my confessions my FOC stated & these are his exact words , " Anger ONLY escalates the problem and it does not solve anything " Clearly you must have noticed that its true. Anger results in cursing & hatred & many unnecessary thoughts & emotions . And in the end , what do you benefit ? Absolutely nothing lol
It depends who insults you, if it is a friend, then that is not as bad as someone who you don't partically like. That would be instict kicking in to insult or tell a priest, someone older. Let them see how it feels to be insulted, if they like it or not.
seriously :o did you really not know that! I was bombarded with it all my childhood so ya, and really its nice and simple follow it and you will b fine, the hard part is following it :)
Comments
I still say there should be a Priest Appreciation Day. It would be no different than Father's Day in the United States but geared towards the priest, solely.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10490.msg127396#msg127396 date=1295467584]
OK...explain this to me:
Saint Paul was arrested and put in prison for healing a woman who was possessed.
The fact that he healed her meant that her masters were losing income (because they made money from her condition).
Anyway, they quietly freed Saint Paul from prison - I think out of fear for some reason.
Saint Paul tells them: "No! I demand an apology! You put me in prison and accused me openly, and now you let me go quietly!!"
He demanded justice! He didnt go quietly at all.
We have rights!!
We insulted God's house by making it into a market...and selling stuff there...Christ, if I remember correctly, got angry and even demolished it. Why didnt He turn the other cheek if He was insulted???
Because you've misunderstood "Turn the other cheek"
That's different...when Christ was angry, it was for religious purposes...that's called "zeal"...getting angry because you were personally insulted is a different matter entirely.
I really don't know what to make of your comment.
The Bible says its OK to get ANGRY so long as you don't sin. Which part of that verse do you not understand?
Priests certainly do not need to be made celebrities, but priests are people too. And they also need encouragement. They need to be told that what they doing, often at great cost, is making a difference to others. They need to hear that a sermon or some spiritual word was useful. That people appreciate having their house blessed, or being prayed for some situation.
Not so that they feel proud, but so that they are strengthened and encouraged. Being a priest can be a very spiritually and personally exposed ministry.
Father Peter
Fr. Priests should be able to take both positive and negative criticism. Unfortunately, I have only known priests that are open to positive criticism. NO ONE dares to say anything negative... we are talking about SMALL things but serious stuff.
For example... we often end up with priests that do not speak English. We don't understand a word of their sermons. ITS ALWAYS in Arabic, and I find that this is a lack of respect towards the country they are in.. they are giving the wrong signals to the congregations that they are more united to Egypt than to whichever country they are living in, and they are preventing people from coming to Christ.
The FIRST gift given to the apostles WAS speaking in tongues so that they could preach the good news.
Yet, REMARKABLY, most of the priests and bishops (to some extent) are careless in this. We give them constant praise and reward for doing the masses, the sacraments etc.. but NO ONE is at all ready nor willing to ask them nicely to learn French or English.
EVERYONE dares not.
Now.. this shows a lot about the complements we are giving to them.
Why is it they are able to take complements and NOT criticism? Then when we give them complements, are we doing them a favour if we are unable to ask for our basic rights of understanding what is going on in the sermon???
Let me give you an example.
I'm a customer in an agency that I'm paying. One of the accountants was extremely rude to me. I didn't raise my voice to attack her.. but because I was upset, I found myself raising my voice. However, I NEVER SAID ONE BAD WORD AT HER.
I mean, I never responded to her insults with an insult. I just told her that she had no right to be rude and what she did was very rude.
That's it.
Finally she apologised.
I COULD NOT, for the life of me, swear at her.
In fact, parents raise their voices to their children when they disbehave. But to sin is to swear at them in your heart. I didnt even do this. In fact, I left the agency with just an impression that they are over-expensive and unprofessional - NEITHER OF WHICH are sins.
If I think you are expensive, unprofessional, and you lack customer skills, there is NO sin in telling u that, NOR in me thinking that.
If I am treated with sheer rudeness on top of it, of course I'll raise my voice.
I think you are confusing two issues:
* Hatred and Anger.
Hatred begins in the heart, so it will come out one day. Its just a rudimentary sin that is waiting for the right climate to grow and show itself.
Anger is NOT a sin.
Coptic Christians are angry.. but they did nothing wrong.
I am angry when I see them humiliated in Egypt and being subjected to discrimination, but I don't feel AT ALL like attacking any muslim.
I would have left the meeting with the agency EXTREMELY in the wrong if I was rude back... whether I raised my voice or not.
When you are angry - do you raise your voice? This is not bad. Because it means that you've let out the stress.. its safer (for you) to be passionate openly than to keep the anger in and explode afterwards.
Let me give u an example of "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks":
Let's say in my heart, i have NO respect for someone, and I hate them.
If EVER we were to argue, I may have said
"You're an idiot" ,
"I wish u dead",
"You moron"
"You are a pointless human being"
- all of which are sins. All the above are sins.
Let's say that someone upsets me, and I get angry. This could manifest itself in the following ways:
* I may frown
* Raising of voice
* Red in the face
* raising of blood pressure
None of the above actions are sins.
When someone reaches the point of being angry, its harder to calm them down... but that's just social skills afterwards.
I think you have a right to be angry.. if you can be angry WITHOUT raising your voice, ALL THE BETTER FOR YOU!!!!
That much I will agree.
However, it may not be in your best interest to respond quietly everytime. You set a precedence on how people will treat you. You also want to show the other that you have rights, and you deserve to be treated with respect. If they do not see you as being upset, they will think that their behaviour towards you is acceptable. You definately do not want to give them that impression either!!!!
That's why I'm saying that its best if you can be angry WITHOUT raising your voice. You still have a right to be angry. And if you've done this to others, it simply means that you should be willing to forgive those who have insulted you in the New York minute!!
That's the way I see it anyway.
Its a weired subject because, I feel that raising your voice (although its not a sin), for some people, its still attacking them. Isn't it?
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10490.msg127536#msg127536 date=1295518259]
Goodpoint Godlovesme...
That's why I'm saying that its best if you can be angry WITHOUT raising your voice. You still have a right to be angry. And if you've done this to others, it simply means that you should be willing to forgive those who have insulted you in the New York minute!!
That's the way I see it anyway.
Its a weired subject because, I feel that raising your voice (although its not a sin), for some people, its still attacking them. Isn't it?
That's exactly why I'm against "raising" your voice...you might offend the person. I didn't raise my voice and neither was I angry with the lady...the best way is to make excuses for people's behavior...you never know if someone is having a really bad day or what's really wrong with them, why they're being so rude...
I would agree with u on that actually.
There was this priest that never swore. He just raised his voice. By the very fact of raising his voice, he wittingly (or unwittingly) managed to attack the person without sinning. lol.. smart aye!?
He was removed from 3 Churches.
He'd tell everyone "Hey! ITS THE WAY I AM, I JUST RAISE MY VOICE.. I HAVE A LOUD VOICE!"..
Well, he was so rude, and when he raised his voice, it was awful. If he misjudged you, he had ALREADY punished you BY raising his voice.. then if he had misjudged you, there would be no apology because well.. "that's just your fault for being upset with someone with a loud voice".
I didnt buy that.
I think u are right on this point. Maybe by me raising my voice to this particular person was taken in that way, but the way I see it, in this particular case (with the agency) - she was EXTREMELY rude.. I mean, shockingly rude.. so i felt I had the right to be angry.
So, this will lead us to ONE question:
HOW CAN YOU BE ANGRY WITHOUT RAISING YOUR VOICE!????
One can make comments of criticism and advice to the clerical fathers, as long as it is done in an approach of respect to a father. When one conducts themselves in a consistent manner of responsibility within the boundaries of proper conduct, one actually gains esteem from which to be able to offer further advice.
I will say that there are plenty of priests and bishops that call me to talk about different topics and dare I say the words, even to seek advice and perspective on different matters. They are assured of my complete confidence on the matter, because my mouth is never open to repeat anything, including certain aspects from His Holiness candor at issues for which I have been privy to over the years. One of the reasons of maintaining my anonymity is specifically not to foster a certain inflated and bloated regard for different things.
Dealing with a priest and bishop is no different than dealing with your own father. It has to be done with deep respect and love. They are truly not the ordinary person to be speaking to about matters. They are open to ideas.
The key aspect is you have to earn their respect.
No different than a father being nervous about their child venturing out on new experiences in life. They do so with trepidation and allow for more and more responsibility as they see more and more genuineness towards responsibility.
What's the big deal in making a priest a star? They resemble what is pure and holy, not what is thin and good looking.
They are supposed to be thin...that is, if they fast all 210 days plus the various Wednesday/Friday fasts...
Unless of course, they are cheating and eating siyami cheese...lol Ok, but Jesus himself said, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Matt 5:45
The apostle Paul said: "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children". Eph 5:1
javascript:void(0);
So if you have found a perfect, sinless mortal person, priest or layman, whom you can imitate, then by all means, go for it. Otherwise we should set our sights higher.
I am not saying that no priest can be a star (GO ABOUNA THOMAS!!), but rather, being a priest does not automatically make a good or even godly person. Just look at all the religious hypocrites in the bible.
As for your statement "They resemble what is pure and holy"...they may resemble what is pure and holy but our Lord EMBODIES what is pure and good and holy. And to Him be the glory forever!!
By the way Zoxsasi, thanks for your reply to my other post, I am mulling it over...
Just had a read of the other posts, seems I have gone off on a very wide tangent lol...apologies! ::)
Before you waste breath trying to make issues of priest, etc., go fix all the slobs that hang outside the church trying to attract the girls that come out of the church, and the girls that do the reverse.
While you are at it, take care of the ones that go to the clubs, that smoke, booze it up, flying through every immorality. After you are finished with that whole menu of things, one can theorize and discuss the issues of the priests.
Leave the priests alone.
Leave the priests alone.
Before you waste breath trying to make issues of priest, etc., go fix all the slobs that hang outside the church trying to attract the girls that come out of the church, and the girls that do the reverse.
While you are at it, take care of the ones that go to the clubs, that smoke, booze it up, flying through every immorality. After you are finished with that whole menu of things, one can theorize and discuss the issues of the priests.
Leave the priests alone.
And then, maybe we can help remove the planks from one another's eyes? lol
GBU
+ sister in Christ +
What should you say or do?
[move][glow=red,2,300]WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD[/glow] [/move]
...simple ;D
guys.....
[move][glow=red,2,300]WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD WWJD[/glow] [/move]
...simple ;D
uhmmmm what does that meaN? :P
WWJD = What would Jesus do?
oh really? GOod one!
did you really not know that! I was bombarded with it all my childhood so ya, and really its nice and simple follow it and you will b fine, the hard part is following it :)