[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129943#msg129943 date=1297095618]
At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
Just on a side note Father, Simon the Tanner was never our patriarch. He was only a tanner and wished to remain anonymous throughout the entire ordeal. The popes name at the time is slipping from my memory.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10626.msg129944#msg129944 date=1297096055] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129943#msg129943 date=1297095618]
At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
Just on a side note Father, Simon the Tanner was never our patriarch. He was only a tanner and wished to remain anonymous throughout the entire ordeal. The popes name at the time is slipping from my memory.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129943#msg129943 date=1297095618] We should not call those who face persecution with peace and patience cowards!
Do you really think that the present situation is ANYTHING like it has been in the past? Do you not remember why the Coptic calendar dates from 284 AD? Do you not remember why we use the abbreviation A.M. meaning 'Year of the Martyrs'?
Those who face persecution are not cowards. How many tens and hundreds of thousands were martyred under Diocletian and the other pagan Emperors. How many tens of thousands were martyred under the Chalcedonians. How many tens and hundreds of thousands under the Muslims.
Each life lost is a matter of great sadness, but the situation is nothing at all compared with how it has been. At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
Im not at all calling those who face persecution cowards. But i find it cowardly that we prefer persecution than demanding our rights!
That's wrong. Our human rights is to practice our religion in peace without any persecution. Its a human right!!
May I just remind you of the story of Saint Paul that demanded his rights also when imprisoned.
Had Christians in Europe not fought back during the Islamic envasions, we'd have ended up with an Islamic Europe.
There are no human rights. That is a modern construct.
There are only human responsibilities which derive from our being created in the image of God, and those civil rights which membership of a particular society provides. St Paul was provided with the opportunity to appeal to Caesar that the Roman law be applied fairly because he was a Roman citizen. A non-Roman citizen had no such right. There was, and is, no such thing as human rights.
To trust primarily in any rights is to deny our hope in God. God has not let the Orthodox faithful down.
If there is an opportunity to exercise those rights which Egyptian citizenship offers then that is entirely reasonable. If those civil rights are not being applied fairly then it is also reasonable to complain. But revolution and armed conflict is a different matter altogether and requires a great deal more careful and prayerful thought.
The resistance to Islamic invasion was justified because it prevented the enslavement of an entire continent. But the American Revolution was not justified and was only a matter of wealthy men seeking to become wealthier. Likewise the Glorious Revolution was a matter of the same wealthy middle class seeking to become wealthier and more powerful. We must be careful when we believe that our rights justify almost any action.
We deserve to suffer eternal punishment for our sin. That is the main thing we need to remember. If I put trust in politics I would be out on the streets every day since I am so appalled by the state of British politics and society. But I do not trust politics or politicians. I do not trust in the application of the law. I do expect that Christians in all places will be increasingly persecuted.
Father Peter, I find many of your posts absolutely disheartening. Human rights do exist and are vital if not all Christians would've been killed years ago and there would none left. Copts have every right to fight for their rights and demand more; sitting around and hoping a ruler might kinda like us and keep us kinda safe is an insult to us. You think the families of the latest Coptic martyrs don't care about their rights and don't hope that the perpetrators are arrested? Unfortunately, Father, with all due respect, I do believe you don't quite understand the strife of the Copts and the pain of having relatives and friends killed for no reason other than practicing their faith, which should be a basic right of each human, which you seem to oppose. I agree with Zoxasi, we should never have to choose between two evils and compromise our rights, that is ludicrous. We should always fight back for the survival of our faith and traditions. This Egyptian revolution is the Copts' chance to step up and become a part of opposition parties and resist a radicalization of Egypt. Revolutions are justified and mostly, like the current Egyptian one, are examples of people getting fed up with working so hard so that a set of families may enrich while they starve. I am completely surprised, Father, to hear about your support for lack of human rights and support of dictatorships.
pharoah123, you are entitled to your views, but you are not entitled to misrepresent what I said.
On what basis do you conclude that there are human rights? Where in the Bible do we find them?
I do recommend that you study the history of the Orthodox Church and see how our Fathers and brethren have responded to very, very much more difficult circumstances.
Of course I feel the pain of the Copts. I am part of the same Church. I pray many times every day for the Church and for all the people I know personally in Egypt, and those who have families in Egypt. That doesn't mean I have to adopt your language of rights.
"We should always fight back"
"Revolutions are justified"
Has this been the reponse of our Orthodox Church over 2,000 years? Were our Fathers wrong not to rise up against each of the oppressors who have persecuted them because of the Faith? Why is it different now?
Engaging in the political space is not the same as revolution. Resistance is not the same as revolution.
The reason that the Church remains is because of God not because of human rights. Do you really think that the Muslim invaders were ever concerned about 'rights'. Yet the Church was preserved. How? By the power and grace of God. Was Stalin concerned about 'rights', yet the Church was preserved. How? By the power and grace of God.
There is nothing wrong with engaging in the political process, but when you speak about 'compromising our rights' it just does not sound very trusting in God. The political process will not preserve the Church. But the power of God, the intercession of the Saints, and the prayers and fasting of the faithful always will.
What does this passage mean in the light of an insistence on rights?
Matthew 5:10-12 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Again, this does not exclude engaging in the political process at all, but it does seem to show that we should always expect persecution. The two are not exclusive. Even here in the UK we see an increasing anti-Christian movement which positively persecutes those with a Christian faith. Yet we have a democracy and our society is built on Christianity. The political process is never to be relied on to preserve or protect the Church. Only a trust in God can save us.
Of course it is different now, because we have actually have an opportunity to change things before our people were executed for speaking against the rulers. This is a new era for Copts, we have a chance now. Also, by your logic, Copts living in the diaspora should not speak out and protest when their brothers and sisters are oppressed and killed for no reason.
Why do you think that it was not possible to speak out in the past and is now? I don't see that this is the case at all.
And why have you misrepresented my words to say that no-one should speak out?
I said that it was reasonable to engage in the political process, but it should not be trusted. Our brothers and sisters in Egypt, and in many other countries, such as Iraq and Armenia, have not been 'killed for no reason'. They have been martyred for the greatest of reasons, because of their faith in Christ. This is not a result of political processes, but it is a spiritual conflict with demonic powers. We should not imagine that the million Armenian martyrs would have been saved if only there had been a campaign on their behalf. Turkey became a secular democratic state shortly afterwards, but those secular democratic leaders were complicit in the martyrdom of a million Christians, and it became illegal to even mention the genocide, as it still is illegal. Democracy, even secular democracy, does not protect Christians as a matter of course. Our enemy is always spiritual and demonic in the first place, and then human and demonic. To attack political processes as if that would make all the difference is to miss the real origins and source of evil.
In the past the Fathers spoke out. They wrote to the Emperor - I can point you to their letters - they even went to visit the Emperor in person. But none of them spoke of revolution or of rights. What they did do was describe how the Christians were among the most loyal of subjects, the most hard-working, the most trustworthy, and they showed that the persecution was senseless and unjust. But they did not speak of revolution. Indeed when our Father among the saints, St Severus, wrote to the Emperor, he always addressed him as one who was his own Emperor, one whom he hoped he could show the error of his persecution and oppression.
How is it different? St Severus could have called upon all the Orthodox Christians to rise up in revolution against the Emperor. Why did he not?
Bishop Angaelos has done a great deal of good in the UK over the last 5 weeks. He has appeared on TV and spoken gently and with insight and intelligence. He has helped to organise much prayer and fasting. The Church has also been involved in raising the issue through a Day of Prayer with the evangelical organisation CSW. I think that this has done a great deal of good. I have also made a point of constantly referring to the issue on the political forums on which I post. My own bishop joined some Copts who were protesting outside No.10 Downing Street. Indeed he was the only bishop there. But I am personally convinced that the prayer and fasting and quiet representations had much more impact than the demonstration. My bishop has made several public statements about the situation in Egypt to try and make sure it stays a current issue. The issue has also been discussed at the Anglican-Oriental Orthodox Regional Forum of which I am Secretary and Bishop Angaelos is Chairman.
There is a lot that can be done. But prayer first, quiet representations second. Those in power do not like to be shouted at. They do like to be shown how they can be an influence for good without putting themselves at risk. This is what I see many of our bishops, and our father, His Holiness Pope Shenouda, doing.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129949#msg129949 date=1297098441] To trust primarily in any rights is to deny our hope in God. God has not let the Orthodox faithful down.
I think you are misrepresenting me here.
I never said we should put our trust in our ability to have human rights NOR in human rights. I said we should seek it. We should seek to be treated fairly. We shouldn't just shy away when persecuted and thank God that "at least we weren't slapped for being Christian, or killed".
Coptic Christians are humans, and what you are asking of them is beyond human capacity. I'm not sure God wants us to be weak either.
If there is an opportunity to exercise those rights which Egyptian citizenship offers then that is entirely reasonable. If those civil rights are not being applied fairly then it is also reasonable to complain. But revolution and armed conflict is a different matter altogether and requires a great deal more careful and prayerful thought.
Where did I mention that "ARMED CONFLICT" is the answer? Again, you are misrepresenting me.
You say it is "REASONABLE TO COMPLAIN" if our rights are not being respected?? This is manifested in what you see as a revolution. A peaceful revolution was the entire aim. NEVER out of violence.
We deserve to suffer eternal punishment for our sin. That is the main thing we need to remember. If I put trust in politics I would be out on the streets every day since I am so appalled by the state of British politics and society. But I do not trust politics or politicians. I do not trust in the application of the law. I do expect that Christians in all places will be increasingly persecuted.
Father, I'm not sure what to make of your statement.
So, if someone slaps me, humiliates me, and treats me like garbage because Im a Christian, I should remind myself that I deserve Eternal Punishment??
I'm so sorry, but I actually draw the line here with you.
I'm not saying you ought to trust polictians. but i think its the completely wrong message to give to any Christian that they ought to remember that they deserve eternal damnation and should count themselves lucky therefore if they are persecuted for being a Christian.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129985#msg129985 date=1297119473] Firstly, most of the points you pull out were not addressed to you.
Secondly our Lord Himself is very clear.
Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven.
What are we to make of this commandment? It is surely one our Fathers have taken to heart. That does not mean it is easy.
The 23 people who were killed in Alexandria - would you have warned them if you knew the bomb would happen? Why? why would u do that for let them lose out on the blessing of being persecuted and killed??
Im sorry, but I really fail to see your logic nor any spiritual lesson in this.
I think we will always be persecuted.. however, it doesnt mean we should welcome it, nor think that this is normal behaviour.
We are persecuted.
We are being sent to courts and convicted for following our consciences in cases like not allowing gay couples to use our homes - or if we are against abortions. We will always be persecuted for the Christian values we hold.
However, we have human rights, and freedom.
The 23 people killed NEVER asked to be killed on that day. Copts need jobs and yet they are discriminated against in the workplace. Should they just enjoy the fact that they are being persecuted??
The Lord says "Bless are those who are persecuted..." he does not ask us to go out and seek persecution which you seem to be suggesting. It is very easy to say what you are saying but it is a much different story when you are the person being systematically discriminated and attacked in your own country as anyone who has lived in Egypt before.
I agree with you. I said the same here. Christ does not ask us to go out and seek martyrdom, nor jihad.
Let me quote for you Anba Angaelos:
"... depriving someone of that human right (to practice their Coptic faith) - through alienating Coptic Christians or marginalisation is itself a crime. We want them to live that faith WITHOUT ANY SORT OF REPRISAL NOR VICTIMISATION" "
He then continues and says:
"We want them to be able to live that life in peace" .
He didnt say - "We really want them to have great blessings and die for being in the wrong place at the wrong time..."
Its important to defend and stick up for your rights Fr Peter. Its VERY important. Otherwise you set a precedence on how you want others to treat you. You give people the opportunity and the power to humiliate you. Its in your hands to stop it.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129999#msg129999 date=1297122727] Its important to defend and stick up for your rights Fr Peter. Its VERY important. Otherwise you set a precedence on how you want others to treat you. You give people the opportunity and the power to humiliate you. Its in your hands to stop it.
"And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?” (John 18:22-23)
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus seems to agree.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10626.msg130006#msg130006 date=1297125023] "And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?” (John 18:22-23)
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus seems to agree.
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus did not rely on political power.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10626.msg130019#msg130019 date=1297135397] [quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10626.msg130006#msg130006 date=1297125023] "And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?” (John 18:22-23)
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus seems to agree.
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus did not rely on political power.
No. That actually means that Christ is not being crucified because of Pilate's power. It was His Will.
Is it your will to actually want to be treated in humiliation and to be treated with disdain and unfairness because you are a Christian? Is that your will? You want that? Because ultimately, whenever you are treated this way - muslims will tell you: "Those who kill in the name of Islam are not muslims". Those who have prejudice against non muslims are not muslims.
We are Egyptian Citizens who have (or SHOULD HAVE!) rights also. We should have rights to build our Churches, to repair them. We have rights for equal opportunities at work, and in government. We do not have these rights.
With all due respect to Fr. Peter, someone who I value very much, he is not Egyptian and i do not see why he can speak on our behalf - he has not even lived in Egypt nor experienced the prejudice we have.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg130033#msg130033 date=1297154136] No. That actually means that Christ is not being crucified because of Pilate's power. It was His Will. Yes I know Christ willed to be crucified. But could not this passage have more than one meaning? Was Christ not also showing us that He is the example of one who did not fear the politicial power because power/help came from heaven? Should we not follow in His example and rely on power from above before we rely on political power?
Is it your will to actually want to be treated in humiliation and to be treated with disdain and unfairness because you are a Christian? Is that your will? You want that?
No one wants to be treated in humiliation or unfairly. But it happens to everybody. And one can look at injustice as something that needs to be fought back or one can look as injustice as a means to another goal.
Ultimately, my goal is to be counted with Christ. When Zebedee's wife wanted her sons to have the same honor and goal, Christ told her "Will they able to drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" Mat 10:38. In order to be glorified and counted with Christ, we must drink the cup of the suffering servant and be baptized or put to death. Now these are spiritual messages, not literal physical messages. But the Bible teaches us that those who suffer humiliation will be exalted more than princes (Luke 1:53). And it is the Lord who raises the lowly and brings down rulers from their thrones.
Second, let's look at Job. When his friends could not give him a satisfactory answer why he was unfairly punished when he didn't commit a sin, he put God on trial. "Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing." Job 31:35. Here is a man who insists that his right for justice be heard, even against God Himself. Here is a man who thought that the goal of his life was to plead for his rights against his accuser. And God didn't say, "Job, you didn't do anything wrong. It is I who have wronged you. You have received the goal you are looking for." No, Job realizes that the goal is not to seek your own rights but as Job so perfectly says, “My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” In other words, Job says, "I once only heard about you and thought I knew everything about justice. But because of my sufferings of injustice, which I once considered a curse, I now know that these sufferings have brought me glory and my eyes see you "face to face". Job never got an answer why he was afflicted with miserable pain and injustice. What he got was better. He was counted with God.
Because ultimately, whenever you are treated this way - muslims will tell you: "Those who kill in the name of Islam are not muslims". Those who have prejudice against non muslims are not muslims.
I don't know what you're trying to say.
We are Egyptian Citizens who have (or SHOULD HAVE!) rights also. We should have rights to build our Churches, to repair them. We have rights for equal opportunities at work, and in government. We do not have these rights.
Absolutely, fight for your rights in every way possible. Just don't expect results without the power from above. I think we first fight for our rights by praying for those who persecute us and take away our rights. We first try to show them kindness. This may solve the problem. If not, then we progress to other means, including diplomacy, rallying and political alliances.
Now I have a question for you. If you were granted the rights you seek, would you use them? (I'm not speaking specifically to you. It's a rhetorical question) Here in the US, we have incidents were local government have stopped the building of Coptic churches (or at least expansion efforts). We hear stories of how many people are not afforded an equal opportunity of work. Just watch Dateline or another news show enough and you'll see a specific story of how two people with equal qualifications do not get equal jobs. And what about the government. Why are there few or no Coptic senators or legislators for local, state or federal governments? Here in America, We have the right to run for office, yet Copts don't usually do it. I'm not saying Copts should not fight for rights in Egypt. But if that's the end goal, and assuming that goal is achieved, what's next? Will history repeat and Copts not exercise these rights fully once they obtained these rights? I don't know. What I do know that acheiving civil rights should not be the end goal. The ultimate goal is to be counted with Christ.
With all due respect to Fr. Peter, someone who I value very much, he is not Egyptian and i do not see why he can speak on our behalf - he has not even lived in Egypt nor experienced the prejudice we have.
Does an oncologist need to have cancer to be sympathetic to a cancer patient? No. A person who is not Egyptian or who has not lived in Egypt can be every bit sympathetic as an Egyptian. The British Orthodox Church and their clergy have as much claim and concern for Egypt as the Copts do. They may see things differently, like a doctor who sees pain differently than his patient. And that's a good thing.
When a doctor has cancer it WILL make him very sympathetic to a cancer patient. Otherwise, he has no idea what its like. He'll know exactly what the patient is thinking.
I think Rem, you've mixed a LOT of stuff up here. Its all mahalabaya.
Your taking a verse from one part in the Bible and trying to apply it in a situation that I fear doesn't require it.
I respectfully disagree with you and Fr. Peter.
As I mentioned, you can read my post again. H.G Angaelos said that Christians should be allowed to live in peace and pray in peace. We shouldn't start to think that we should be thankful because we haven't been killed or raped yet.
That's awful.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Young Coptic girls are being raped and forced to convert to Islam and marry a muslim man. Should they also see that as a blessing? Shall we just let it go silently also SO NO ONE even knows about it? Maybe we should hide the sins of those that rape our women and make them convert to Islam - we could get a double blessing???
What do u think??
You know when the Alexandria attacks happened, many people decided not to go to celebrate liturgy on that day due to the threats against them. Those that stayed at home were rebuked by others who said "No! YOU SHOULD GO!! You could get killed just by walking out in the street".
Fair enough. .. but would that person who is inviting you to go to Church be able to comfort your mother if your Church was attacked and you did die?? What excuse would he give her??
Why do you put weight on people's shoulders with all these flowery words that you are not even capable of honouring yourself???
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130074#msg130074 date=1297188017] Zoxasi, what do you think this means?
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Does that apply to women who are systematically raped and forced to convert to Islam? Does that apply to young Christian men and women who are treated unequally in the workplace because of their faith? Does it mean that we have to be continually humiliated?
What are you suggesting with that statement? That we should be happy about it? That we should enjoy it?????
You obviously haven't lived in Egypt. You haven't suffered anything because you're a Christian in the Middle East either.
Are you suggesting that we should just be silent about our suffering and NOT demand our human rights be respected??
I understand that verse to mean that consider yourself blessed IF you suffer for Christ's sake. However, i don't think its wise to go out and purposely suffer for it either. I don't think Christ wants us to live in perpetual humiliation either.
Do you know ANYONE , any family whose daughter was raped so she could convert to Islam??? DO YOU???
Has this happened to anyone you know??
I'd LOVE to introduce you to a couple i know.. and I WOULD LOVE to see what happens when you tell them: "Be exceedingly glad ".
Your attitude on this is totally unwarranted. Anba Angaelos is not singing from the same hymn sheet as you: He's not telling Copts :"Look, FORGET about your rights, just enjoy the persecution". He's really trying hard to make Coptic Christians treated fairly. Him and Anba Souriel of Australia.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130077#msg130077 date=1297188644] Sorry, you have avoided answering the question.
What did our Lord mean when he said...
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Please don't tell me how I don't understand. Please don't ask how people feel. Just let me know what you think our Lord DID mean.
Father Peter
I felt I answered it.
I said that there is a blessing in suffering for Christ's sake.
But to stop people from seeking their human rights, to tell them that they have more to gain by living in suffering than to stand up for their human rights is not fair. Its completely self righteous. Its CLEAR you have no idea on the suffering of Copts in the Middle East. Again, you are not on the same wavelength as H.G Bishop Angaelos nor Bishop Souriel who EXPLICITLY demanded our human rights; who complained of our discriminations.
Remarkable! NO WHERE in their messages did they tell people that they should be exceedingly glad for their suffering.
So - tell me - there was a muslim policeman killed last year when a gunman opened fire on Christians in a Church in Naga Hammadi. The muslim did not want to die for Christ, he didnt plan on it, and he wasn't Christian. I have NO idea how your logic works.. but Its definately, with all due respect, different than mine, and 2 bishops.
According to your logic = What's the point in calling the police after a crime against you? After all, you're going to forgive and forget the criminal anyway - aren't you?
I really think you ought to live in Egypt a bit before commenting.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130082#msg130082 date=1297189286] As you say, perhaps I can know nothing of such things and had best be silent.
No. I would prefer if you asked H.G Anba Angaelos why him and Anba Souriel are advocates of our national human rights in Egypt? Why are they doing this?
Yes, there is a blessing for those who suffer for Christ's sake... but what you forget is: a lot of Christians don't plan on suffering for Christ's sake. A lot of people end up leaving Christianity because they CANNOT suffer and they just want to live in peace. That's it.
Some remain Christian and suffer, and I agree - there IS a blessing for that suffering - but I feel because we are a minority, we think we have NO option BUT to live in humiliation in Egypt.
That cannot go on. Life is too short for everyone to live in fear like this.
THOUSANDS of Coptic Christians PREFERED TO LEAVE EGYPT (INCLUDING MY FAMILY) BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT TAKE THE SUFFERING THAT IS BESTOWED ON THEM AS CHRISTIANS.. Its a government sponsored prejudice and discrimination against a religious minority.
I used to think like you, and think that it must be awesome to suffer for Christ's sake. But what you don't realize is that it doesn't end. There's no limit. What kind of country do you think Egypt is where a 2 people are killed for protesting against the government for revoking a building permit AFTER the Church had already been built?
What kind of country do you think Egypt is where after 23 people were killed in a Church bomb attack, muslims then came and attacked Christians who were demonstrating???
Christ said if someone slaps you on the left cheek, offer him the right. Well, I only have 2 cheeks - and so, I won't KEEP ON letting someone do that. I deserve also to know why i'm being slapped. Christ demanded His rights and to be respected when he said to the servant: "Why do you slap me for?"
Was he wrong to ask the servant that?? Maybe He should have offered the other cheek??????!!!!
PLEASE, CAN YOU KINDLY ASK ANBA ANGAELOS what the church's position is on the rights of Coptic Christians in Egypt???
It's not the same in that it is not persecution of Christians but it has now become attacks on Christians and those considered Christians, but we have also lived with the fear of death in the UK for most of my life.
During the Troubles 3526 people were killed, a bomb went off even here in my home town when I was 12. 47,000 were injured, 36,000 were shot. The man I shared a room with at Bible College had survived a murder attempt. We grew used to schools, shops, cinemas etc being evacuated because of regular bomb scares.
In recent times, 56 British people were killed by Muslims in the Twin Towers, and 56 also died in London when Muslim bombs went off. 700 other British people were injured. There are towns in the UK in which social services are now dominated by Muslims who ensure that Christians and non-Muslims do not get housing or other support.
So we are also used to communal violence. Not the same, but not entirely different either. There is a real (but presently small) risk of danger every time I travel to London, and there has been for much of my life. There is also a growing and insidious assualt on Christians in this couuntry, both from Islam and from the anti-Christian socialist forces working with it. I would now not be able to preach against homosexuality in the street or in any public fashion and could be arrested for a hate crime. Politicians are considering FORCING Churches to have women priests. It is a different type of persecution but the end result is the same, and the source or all such persecution is the same evil one.
If you have a question to ask of Bishop Angaelos then I am sure you can ask it of him yourself.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130085#msg130085 date=1297192785] I am not entirely sure what you mean?
It's not the same in that it is not persecution of Christians but it has now become attacks on Christians and those considered Christians, but we have also lived with the fear of death in the UK for most of my life.
During the Troubles 3526 people were killed, a bomb went off even here in my home town when I was 12. 47,000 were injured, 36,000 were shot. The man I shared a room with at Bible College had survived a murder attempt. We grew used to schools, shops, cinemas etc being evacuated because of regular bomb scares.
In recent times, 56 British people were killed by Muslims in the Twin Towers, and 56 also died in London when Muslim bombs went off. 700 other British people were injured. There are towns in the UK in which social services are now dominated by Muslims who ensure that Christians and non-Muslims do not get housing or other support.
So we are also used to communal violence. Not the same, but not entirely different either. There is a real (but presently small) risk of danger every time I travel to London, and there has been for much of my life. There is also a growing and insidious assualt on Christians in this couuntry, both from Islam and from the anti-Christian socialist forces working with it. I would now not be able to preach against homosexuality in the street or in any public fashion and could be arrested for a hate crime. Politicians are considering FORCING Churches to have women priests. It is a different type of persecution but the end result is the same, and the source or all such persecution is the same evil one.
If you have a question to ask of Bishop Angaelos then I am sure you can ask it of him yourself.
Yeah OK.. but its not every day.. and its not discrimination.
I meant you yourself should ask Bishop Angaelos or Father Souriel what Copts should do concerning their persecution? Should they seek their human rights or should they not do so for they are putting their hopes in political systems??
As far as I can see, they are demanding now their rights.
Discrimination is coming everywhere against Christians. The UK will not be exempt.
As I have said several times, there is nothing wrong with respectfully insisting on civil rights, but it is always a mistake to rely on politicians and politics. I sense that the UK is approaching a time of violent revolution, certainly in my life time unless something changes significantly, but I am not sure that I would be able to support a general revolution however much I would applaud and agree with some of the aims because it always, always replaces one corrupt regime with another regime that is rapidly corrupted. But while there is an opportunity it is always good to make the most of whatever opportunities there are to speak to those with power.
If you have a question to ask Bishop Angaelos then ask him.
Comments
At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
Just on a side note Father, Simon the Tanner was never our patriarch. He was only a tanner and wished to remain anonymous throughout the entire ordeal. The popes name at the time is slipping from my memory.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129943#msg129943 date=1297095618]
At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
Just on a side note Father, Simon the Tanner was never our patriarch. He was only a tanner and wished to remain anonymous throughout the entire ordeal. The popes name at the time is slipping from my memory.
Pope Abraham Ben Zar'a, a Syrian, the 62nd Pope.
And, yes, we see that the Patriarch was a Syrian.
We should not call those who face persecution with peace and patience cowards!
Do you really think that the present situation is ANYTHING like it has been in the past? Do you not remember why the Coptic calendar dates from 284 AD? Do you not remember why we use the abbreviation A.M. meaning 'Year of the Martyrs'?
Those who face persecution are not cowards. How many tens and hundreds of thousands were martyred under Diocletian and the other pagan Emperors. How many tens of thousands were martyred under the Chalcedonians. How many tens and hundreds of thousands under the Muslims.
Each life lost is a matter of great sadness, but the situation is nothing at all compared with how it has been. At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
Im not at all calling those who face persecution cowards. But i find it cowardly that we prefer persecution than demanding our rights!
That's wrong. Our human rights is to practice our religion in peace without any persecution. Its a human right!!
May I just remind you of the story of Saint Paul that demanded his rights also when imprisoned.
Had Christians in Europe not fought back during the Islamic envasions, we'd have ended up with an Islamic Europe.
There are only human responsibilities which derive from our being created in the image of God, and those civil rights which membership of a particular society provides. St Paul was provided with the opportunity to appeal to Caesar that the Roman law be applied fairly because he was a Roman citizen. A non-Roman citizen had no such right. There was, and is, no such thing as human rights.
To trust primarily in any rights is to deny our hope in God. God has not let the Orthodox faithful down.
If there is an opportunity to exercise those rights which Egyptian citizenship offers then that is entirely reasonable. If those civil rights are not being applied fairly then it is also reasonable to complain. But revolution and armed conflict is a different matter altogether and requires a great deal more careful and prayerful thought.
The resistance to Islamic invasion was justified because it prevented the enslavement of an entire continent. But the American Revolution was not justified and was only a matter of wealthy men seeking to become wealthier. Likewise the Glorious Revolution was a matter of the same wealthy middle class seeking to become wealthier and more powerful. We must be careful when we believe that our rights justify almost any action.
We deserve to suffer eternal punishment for our sin. That is the main thing we need to remember. If I put trust in politics I would be out on the streets every day since I am so appalled by the state of British politics and society. But I do not trust politics or politicians. I do not trust in the application of the law. I do expect that Christians in all places will be increasingly persecuted.
Human rights do exist and are vital if not all Christians would've been killed years ago and there would none left. Copts have every right to fight for their rights and demand more; sitting around and hoping a ruler might kinda like us and keep us kinda safe is an insult to us. You think the families of the latest Coptic martyrs don't care about their rights and don't hope that the perpetrators are arrested?
Unfortunately, Father, with all due respect, I do believe you don't quite understand the strife of the Copts and the pain of having relatives and friends killed for no reason other than practicing their faith, which should be a basic right of each human, which you seem to oppose.
I agree with Zoxasi, we should never have to choose between two evils and compromise our rights, that is ludicrous. We should always fight back for the survival of our faith and traditions. This Egyptian revolution is the Copts' chance to step up and become a part of opposition parties and resist a radicalization of Egypt.
Revolutions are justified and mostly, like the current Egyptian one, are examples of people getting fed up with working so hard so that a set of families may enrich while they starve.
I am completely surprised, Father, to hear about your support for lack of human rights and support of dictatorships.
On what basis do you conclude that there are human rights? Where in the Bible do we find them?
I do recommend that you study the history of the Orthodox Church and see how our Fathers and brethren have responded to very, very much more difficult circumstances.
Of course I feel the pain of the Copts. I am part of the same Church. I pray many times every day for the Church and for all the people I know personally in Egypt, and those who have families in Egypt. That doesn't mean I have to adopt your language of rights.
"We should always fight back"
"Revolutions are justified"
Has this been the reponse of our Orthodox Church over 2,000 years? Were our Fathers wrong not to rise up against each of the oppressors who have persecuted them because of the Faith? Why is it different now?
Engaging in the political space is not the same as revolution. Resistance is not the same as revolution.
The reason that the Church remains is because of God not because of human rights. Do you really think that the Muslim invaders were ever concerned about 'rights'. Yet the Church was preserved. How? By the power and grace of God. Was Stalin concerned about 'rights', yet the Church was preserved. How? By the power and grace of God.
There is nothing wrong with engaging in the political process, but when you speak about 'compromising our rights' it just does not sound very trusting in God. The political process will not preserve the Church. But the power of God, the intercession of the Saints, and the prayers and fasting of the faithful always will.
What does this passage mean in the light of an insistence on rights?
Matthew 5:10-12 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Again, this does not exclude engaging in the political process at all, but it does seem to show that we should always expect persecution. The two are not exclusive. Even here in the UK we see an increasing anti-Christian movement which positively persecutes those with a Christian faith. Yet we have a democracy and our society is built on Christianity. The political process is never to be relied on to preserve or protect the Church. Only a trust in God can save us.
Father Peter
Also, by your logic, Copts living in the diaspora should not speak out and protest when their brothers and sisters are oppressed and killed for no reason.
And why have you misrepresented my words to say that no-one should speak out?
I said that it was reasonable to engage in the political process, but it should not be trusted. Our brothers and sisters in Egypt, and in many other countries, such as Iraq and Armenia, have not been 'killed for no reason'. They have been martyred for the greatest of reasons, because of their faith in Christ. This is not a result of political processes, but it is a spiritual conflict with demonic powers. We should not imagine that the million Armenian martyrs would have been saved if only there had been a campaign on their behalf. Turkey became a secular democratic state shortly afterwards, but those secular democratic leaders were complicit in the martyrdom of a million Christians, and it became illegal to even mention the genocide, as it still is illegal. Democracy, even secular democracy, does not protect Christians as a matter of course. Our enemy is always spiritual and demonic in the first place, and then human and demonic. To attack political processes as if that would make all the difference is to miss the real origins and source of evil.
In the past the Fathers spoke out. They wrote to the Emperor - I can point you to their letters - they even went to visit the Emperor in person. But none of them spoke of revolution or of rights. What they did do was describe how the Christians were among the most loyal of subjects, the most hard-working, the most trustworthy, and they showed that the persecution was senseless and unjust. But they did not speak of revolution. Indeed when our Father among the saints, St Severus, wrote to the Emperor, he always addressed him as one who was his own Emperor, one whom he hoped he could show the error of his persecution and oppression.
How is it different? St Severus could have called upon all the Orthodox Christians to rise up in revolution against the Emperor. Why did he not?
Bishop Angaelos has done a great deal of good in the UK over the last 5 weeks. He has appeared on TV and spoken gently and with insight and intelligence. He has helped to organise much prayer and fasting. The Church has also been involved in raising the issue through a Day of Prayer with the evangelical organisation CSW. I think that this has done a great deal of good. I have also made a point of constantly referring to the issue on the political forums on which I post. My own bishop joined some Copts who were protesting outside No.10 Downing Street. Indeed he was the only bishop there. But I am personally convinced that the prayer and fasting and quiet representations had much more impact than the demonstration. My bishop has made several public statements about the situation in Egypt to try and make sure it stays a current issue. The issue has also been discussed at the Anglican-Oriental Orthodox Regional Forum of which I am Secretary and Bishop Angaelos is Chairman.
There is a lot that can be done. But prayer first, quiet representations second. Those in power do not like to be shouted at. They do like to be shown how they can be an influence for good without putting themselves at risk. This is what I see many of our bishops, and our father, His Holiness Pope Shenouda, doing.
Father Peter
To trust primarily in any rights is to deny our hope in God. God has not let the Orthodox faithful down.
I think you are misrepresenting me here.
I never said we should put our trust in our ability to have human rights NOR in human rights. I said we should seek it. We should seek to be treated fairly. We shouldn't just shy away when persecuted and thank God that "at least we weren't slapped for being Christian, or killed".
Coptic Christians are humans, and what you are asking of them is beyond human capacity. I'm not sure God wants us to be weak either. Where did I mention that "ARMED CONFLICT" is the answer? Again, you are misrepresenting me.
You say it is "REASONABLE TO COMPLAIN" if our rights are not being respected?? This is manifested in what you see as a revolution.
A peaceful revolution was the entire aim. NEVER out of violence. Father, I'm not sure what to make of your statement.
So, if someone slaps me, humiliates me, and treats me like garbage because Im a Christian, I should remind myself that I deserve Eternal Punishment??
I'm so sorry, but I actually draw the line here with you.
I'm not saying you ought to trust polictians. but i think its the completely wrong message to give to any Christian that they ought to remember that they deserve eternal damnation and should count themselves lucky therefore if they are persecuted for being a Christian.
Secondly our Lord Himself is very clear.
Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven.
What are we to make of this commandment? It is surely one our Fathers have taken to heart. That does not mean it is easy.
Firstly, most of the points you pull out were not addressed to you.
Secondly our Lord Himself is very clear.
Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven.
What are we to make of this commandment? It is surely one our Fathers have taken to heart. That does not mean it is easy.
The 23 people who were killed in Alexandria - would you have warned them if you knew the bomb would happen?
Why? why would u do that for let them lose out on the blessing of being persecuted and killed??
Im sorry, but I really fail to see your logic nor any spiritual lesson in this.
I think we will always be persecuted.. however, it doesnt mean we should welcome it, nor think that this is normal behaviour.
We are persecuted.
We are being sent to courts and convicted for following our consciences in cases like not allowing gay couples to use our homes - or if we are against abortions. We will always be persecuted for the Christian values we hold.
However, we have human rights, and freedom.
The 23 people killed NEVER asked to be killed on that day. Copts need jobs and yet they are discriminated against in the workplace. Should they just enjoy the fact that they are being persecuted??
I agree with you. I said the same here. Christ does not ask us to go out and seek martyrdom, nor jihad.
Let me quote for you Anba Angaelos:
"... depriving someone of that human right (to practice their Coptic faith) - through alienating Coptic Christians or marginalisation is itself a crime. We want them to live that faith WITHOUT ANY SORT OF REPRISAL NOR VICTIMISATION"
"
He then continues and says:
"We want them to be able to live that life in peace" .
He didnt say - "We really want them to have great blessings and die for being in the wrong place at the wrong time..."
Its important to defend and stick up for your rights Fr Peter. Its VERY important. Otherwise you set a precedence on how you want others to treat you. You give people the opportunity and the power to humiliate you. Its in your hands to stop it.
Its important to defend and stick up for your rights Fr Peter. Its VERY important. Otherwise you set a precedence on how you want others to treat you. You give people the opportunity and the power to humiliate you. Its in your hands to stop it.
"And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?” (John 18:22-23)
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus seems to agree.
"And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?” (John 18:22-23)
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus seems to agree.
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus did not rely on political power.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10626.msg130006#msg130006 date=1297125023]
"And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, “Do You answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?” (John 18:22-23)
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus seems to agree.
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”
Just thought I'd point out that Jesus did not rely on political power.
No. That actually means that Christ is not being crucified because of Pilate's power. It was His Will.
Is it your will to actually want to be treated in humiliation and to be treated with disdain and unfairness because you are a Christian? Is that your will? You want that? Because ultimately, whenever you are treated this way - muslims will tell you: "Those who kill in the name of Islam are not muslims". Those who have prejudice against non muslims are not muslims.
We are Egyptian Citizens who have (or SHOULD HAVE!) rights also. We should have rights to build our Churches, to repair them. We have rights for equal opportunities at work, and in government. We do not have these rights.
With all due respect to Fr. Peter, someone who I value very much, he is not Egyptian and i do not see why he can speak on our behalf - he has not even lived in Egypt nor experienced the prejudice we have.
No. That actually means that Christ is not being crucified because of Pilate's power. It was His Will.
Yes I know Christ willed to be crucified. But could not this passage have more than one meaning? Was Christ not also showing us that He is the example of one who did not fear the politicial power because power/help came from heaven? Should we not follow in His example and rely on power from above before we rely on political power? No one wants to be treated in humiliation or unfairly. But it happens to everybody. And one can look at injustice as something that needs to be fought back or one can look as injustice as a means to another goal.
Ultimately, my goal is to be counted with Christ. When Zebedee's wife wanted her sons to have the same honor and goal, Christ told her "Will they able to drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" Mat 10:38. In order to be glorified and counted with Christ, we must drink the cup of the suffering servant and be baptized or put to death. Now these are spiritual messages, not literal physical messages. But the Bible teaches us that those who suffer humiliation will be exalted more than princes (Luke 1:53). And it is the Lord who raises the lowly and brings down rulers from their thrones.
Second, let's look at Job. When his friends could not give him a satisfactory answer why he was unfairly punished when he didn't commit a sin, he put God on trial. "Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing." Job 31:35. Here is a man who insists that his right for justice be heard, even against God Himself. Here is a man who thought that the goal of his life was to plead for his rights against his accuser. And God didn't say, "Job, you didn't do anything wrong. It is I who have wronged you. You have received the goal you are looking for." No, Job realizes that the goal is not to seek your own rights but as Job so perfectly says, “My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” In other words, Job says, "I once only heard about you and thought I knew everything about justice. But because of my sufferings of injustice, which I once considered a curse, I now know that these sufferings have brought me glory and my eyes see you "face to face". Job never got an answer why he was afflicted with miserable pain and injustice. What he got was better. He was counted with God. I don't know what you're trying to say. Absolutely, fight for your rights in every way possible. Just don't expect results without the power from above. I think we first fight for our rights by praying for those who persecute us and take away our rights. We first try to show them kindness. This may solve the problem. If not, then we progress to other means, including diplomacy, rallying and political alliances.
Now I have a question for you. If you were granted the rights you seek, would you use them? (I'm not speaking specifically to you. It's a rhetorical question) Here in the US, we have incidents were local government have stopped the building of Coptic churches (or at least expansion efforts). We hear stories of how many people are not afforded an equal opportunity of work. Just watch Dateline or another news show enough and you'll see a specific story of how two people with equal qualifications do not get equal jobs. And what about the government. Why are there few or no Coptic senators or legislators for local, state or federal governments? Here in America, We have the right to run for office, yet Copts don't usually do it. I'm not saying Copts should not fight for rights in Egypt. But if that's the end goal, and assuming that goal is achieved, what's next? Will history repeat and Copts not exercise these rights fully once they obtained these rights? I don't know. What I do know that acheiving civil rights should not be the end goal. The ultimate goal is to be counted with Christ. Does an oncologist need to have cancer to be sympathetic to a cancer patient? No. A person who is not Egyptian or who has not lived in Egypt can be every bit sympathetic as an Egyptian. The British Orthodox Church and their clergy have as much claim and concern for Egypt as the Copts do. They may see things differently, like a doctor who sees pain differently than his patient. And that's a good thing.
I think Rem, you've mixed a LOT of stuff up here. Its all mahalabaya.
Your taking a verse from one part in the Bible and trying to apply it in a situation that I fear doesn't require it.
I respectfully disagree with you and Fr. Peter.
As I mentioned, you can read my post again. H.G Angaelos said that Christians should be allowed to live in peace and pray in peace. We shouldn't start to think that we should be thankful because we haven't been killed or raped yet.
That's awful.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Young Coptic girls are being raped and forced to convert to Islam and marry a muslim man. Should they also see that as a blessing? Shall we just let it go silently also SO NO ONE even knows about it? Maybe we should hide the sins of those that rape our women and make them convert to Islam - we could get a double blessing???
What do u think??
You know when the Alexandria attacks happened, many people decided not to go to celebrate liturgy on that day due to the threats against them. Those that stayed at home were rebuked by others who said "No! YOU SHOULD GO!! You could get killed just by walking out in the street".
Fair enough. .. but would that person who is inviting you to go to Church be able to comfort your mother if your Church was attacked and you did die?? What excuse would he give her??
Why do you put weight on people's shoulders with all these flowery words that you are not even capable of honouring yourself???
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Zoxasi, what do you think this means?
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Does that apply to women who are systematically raped and forced to convert to Islam?
Does that apply to young Christian men and women who are treated unequally in the workplace because of their faith?
Does it mean that we have to be continually humiliated?
What are you suggesting with that statement? That we should be happy about it? That we should enjoy it?????
You obviously haven't lived in Egypt. You haven't suffered anything because you're a Christian in the Middle East either.
Are you suggesting that we should just be silent about our suffering and NOT demand our human rights be respected??
I understand that verse to mean that consider yourself blessed IF you suffer for Christ's sake. However, i don't think its wise to go out and purposely suffer for it either. I don't think Christ wants us to live in perpetual humiliation either.
Do you know ANYONE , any family whose daughter was raped so she could convert to Islam??? DO YOU???
Has this happened to anyone you know??
I'd LOVE to introduce you to a couple i know.. and I WOULD LOVE to see what happens when you tell them: "Be exceedingly glad ".
Your attitude on this is totally unwarranted. Anba Angaelos is not singing from the same hymn sheet as you: He's not telling Copts :"Look, FORGET about your rights, just enjoy the persecution". He's really trying hard to make Coptic Christians treated fairly. Him and Anba Souriel of Australia.
I'm astonished at this attitude frankly.
What did our Lord mean when he said...
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Please don't tell me how I don't understand. Please don't ask how people feel. Just let me know what you think our Lord DID mean.
Father Peter
Sorry, you have avoided answering the question.
What did our Lord mean when he said...
"Blessed are those who are persecuted.... Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven."
Please don't tell me how I don't understand. Please don't ask how people feel. Just let me know what you think our Lord DID mean.
Father Peter
I felt I answered it.
I said that there is a blessing in suffering for Christ's sake.
But to stop people from seeking their human rights, to tell them that they have more to gain by living in suffering than to stand up for their human rights is not fair. Its completely self righteous. Its CLEAR you have no idea on the suffering of Copts in the Middle East. Again, you are not on the same wavelength as H.G Bishop Angaelos nor Bishop Souriel who EXPLICITLY demanded our human rights; who complained of our discriminations.
Remarkable! NO WHERE in their messages did they tell people that they should be exceedingly glad for their suffering.
So - tell me - there was a muslim policeman killed last year when a gunman opened fire on Christians in a Church in Naga Hammadi. The muslim did not want to die for Christ, he didnt plan on it, and he wasn't Christian. I have NO idea how your logic works.. but Its definately, with all due respect, different than mine, and 2 bishops.
According to your logic = What's the point in calling the police after a crime against you? After all, you're going to forgive and forget the criminal anyway - aren't you?
I really think you ought to live in Egypt a bit before commenting.
As you say, perhaps I can know nothing of such things and had best be silent.
No. I would prefer if you asked H.G Anba Angaelos why him and Anba Souriel are advocates of our national human rights in Egypt? Why are they doing this?
Yes, there is a blessing for those who suffer for Christ's sake... but what you forget is: a lot of Christians don't plan on suffering for Christ's sake. A lot of people end up leaving Christianity because they CANNOT suffer and they just want to live in peace. That's it.
Some remain Christian and suffer, and I agree - there IS a blessing for that suffering - but I feel because we are a minority, we think we have NO option BUT to live in humiliation in Egypt.
That cannot go on. Life is too short for everyone to live in fear like this.
THOUSANDS of Coptic Christians PREFERED TO LEAVE EGYPT (INCLUDING MY FAMILY) BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT TAKE THE SUFFERING THAT IS BESTOWED ON THEM AS CHRISTIANS.. Its a government sponsored prejudice and discrimination against a religious minority.
I used to think like you, and think that it must be awesome to suffer for Christ's sake. But what you don't realize is that it doesn't end. There's no limit. What kind of country do you think Egypt is where a 2 people are killed for protesting against the government for revoking a building permit AFTER the Church had already been built?
What kind of country do you think Egypt is where after 23 people were killed in a Church bomb attack, muslims then came and attacked Christians who were demonstrating???
Christ said if someone slaps you on the left cheek, offer him the right.
Well, I only have 2 cheeks - and so, I won't KEEP ON letting someone do that. I deserve also to know why i'm being slapped. Christ demanded His rights and to be respected when he said to the servant: "Why do you slap me for?"
Was he wrong to ask the servant that?? Maybe He should have offered the other cheek??????!!!!
PLEASE, CAN YOU KINDLY ASK ANBA ANGAELOS what the church's position is on the rights of Coptic Christians in Egypt???
I would feel more confident if you could do that.
It's not the same in that it is not persecution of Christians but it has now become attacks on Christians and those considered Christians, but we have also lived with the fear of death in the UK for most of my life.
During the Troubles 3526 people were killed, a bomb went off even here in my home town when I was 12. 47,000 were injured, 36,000 were shot. The man I shared a room with at Bible College had survived a murder attempt. We grew used to schools, shops, cinemas etc being evacuated because of regular bomb scares.
In recent times, 56 British people were killed by Muslims in the Twin Towers, and 56 also died in London when Muslim bombs went off. 700 other British people were injured. There are towns in the UK in which social services are now dominated by Muslims who ensure that Christians and non-Muslims do not get housing or other support.
So we are also used to communal violence. Not the same, but not entirely different either. There is a real (but presently small) risk of danger every time I travel to London, and there has been for much of my life. There is also a growing and insidious assualt on Christians in this couuntry, both from Islam and from the anti-Christian socialist forces working with it. I would now not be able to preach against homosexuality in the street or in any public fashion and could be arrested for a hate crime. Politicians are considering FORCING Churches to have women priests. It is a different type of persecution but the end result is the same, and the source or all such persecution is the same evil one.
If you have a question to ask of Bishop Angaelos then I am sure you can ask it of him yourself.
I am not entirely sure what you mean?
It's not the same in that it is not persecution of Christians but it has now become attacks on Christians and those considered Christians, but we have also lived with the fear of death in the UK for most of my life.
During the Troubles 3526 people were killed, a bomb went off even here in my home town when I was 12. 47,000 were injured, 36,000 were shot. The man I shared a room with at Bible College had survived a murder attempt. We grew used to schools, shops, cinemas etc being evacuated because of regular bomb scares.
In recent times, 56 British people were killed by Muslims in the Twin Towers, and 56 also died in London when Muslim bombs went off. 700 other British people were injured. There are towns in the UK in which social services are now dominated by Muslims who ensure that Christians and non-Muslims do not get housing or other support.
So we are also used to communal violence. Not the same, but not entirely different either. There is a real (but presently small) risk of danger every time I travel to London, and there has been for much of my life. There is also a growing and insidious assualt on Christians in this couuntry, both from Islam and from the anti-Christian socialist forces working with it. I would now not be able to preach against homosexuality in the street or in any public fashion and could be arrested for a hate crime. Politicians are considering FORCING Churches to have women priests. It is a different type of persecution but the end result is the same, and the source or all such persecution is the same evil one.
If you have a question to ask of Bishop Angaelos then I am sure you can ask it of him yourself.
Yeah OK.. but its not every day.. and its not discrimination.
I meant you yourself should ask Bishop Angaelos or Father Souriel what Copts should do concerning their persecution? Should they seek their human rights or should they not do so for they are putting their hopes in political systems??
As far as I can see, they are demanding now their rights.
As I have said several times, there is nothing wrong with respectfully insisting on civil rights, but it is always a mistake to rely on politicians and politics. I sense that the UK is approaching a time of violent revolution, certainly in my life time unless something changes significantly, but I am not sure that I would be able to support a general revolution however much I would applaud and agree with some of the aims because it always, always replaces one corrupt regime with another regime that is rapidly corrupted. But while there is an opportunity it is always good to make the most of whatever opportunities there are to speak to those with power.
If you have a question to ask Bishop Angaelos then ask him.