[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130089#msg130089 date=1297194290] Discrimination is coming everywhere against Christians. The UK will not be exempt.
As I have said several times, there is nothing wrong with respectfully insisting on civil rights, but it is always a mistake to rely on politicians and politics. I sense that the UK is approaching a time of violent revolution, certainly in my life time unless something changes significantly, but I am not sure that I would be able to support a general revolution however much I would applaud and agree with some of the aims because it always, always replaces one corrupt regime with another regime that is rapidly corrupted. But while there is an opportunity it is always good to make the most of whatever opportunities there are to speak to those with power.
If you have a question to ask Bishop Angaelos then ask him.
Gosh.. i think i see your point.
Demonstrating is not relying on policitians to change things. Its relying on YOU to change things. That's what protesting is about. Its the will of the people.
After the alexandria attacks, i think muslims also felt the need to end the discrimination against us.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130101#msg130101 date=1297196992] Has the discrimination ended?
Its definately not what it was... I can tell u that much!
I was very skeptical about all this - but something in Egypt has changed... its strange. There's a strong sense of national unity and pride, and love between the 2 religious groups.
Since when could we display a cross like that in public? Since when could we sing a Christian song in public?
Tahrir now is symbolic with what the youth want. Its changed. It has an image now that will last forever.
i was like u ILSM, but even though this romance with secularism and democracy may end, like all romances, it was there. It did exist, and I have a feeling that something did change in the mindset of Egyptians.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10626.msg130116#msg130116 date=1297201622] They did the same thing in the 50's. They did the same against the British.
We are being used like an old rag. Their religion is incompatible with democracy.
We shall wait and see, and you will have to return and say I am 'right'. Why, because I have 1400 years of history to back me.
dude....it's bad. did anyone watch the Sadat video speaking about them......and he himself was one of them originally.
nothing changed. Allow me to comment on your posts.
The output has to relate to the input, somehow, unless supernatural forces enter the game. There has to be a flow of events that is coherent and not amputated from reality and from the past.
If we assume that the majority of the people in Tahrir square are indeed not part of any group, then my opinion is as follows:
The people in the Tahrir square were not detached from their society and they were not isolated in special training camps. They are, by large, the product of the regime they are attacking. They are asking for democracy and tolerance, yet they are accusing anyone who opposes them or criticizes them of high treason. They grieve over abuse by the police, yet they have beaten any person against them severely. Whether the regime retains power or whether they take over, there will be a huge line of "traitors" waiting for execution in either case. This picture of "evil" regime against "loving" people is good for media purposes and EL-Jazeera reports, but not for a person who lived in Egypt.
Are they of a certain religion? The vast majority are.
Does this religion teach tolerance? No.
Have they been exposed to other ideologies in schools, at home, or by other powerful influential agencies? No.
How much time did they spend under a system that advocated hate to christians (the brotherhood system and not the regime)? About 60 years.
Were Copts persecuted by the regime or by the people? Both, but mostly by the people. They interview you for a job and reject you based on your religion. They shout behind your back: "ya nusrani ya kafeer" when walking in the street or they spit on your sister's face because she has a cross. These are the same people who are demonstrating.
Did religion infiltrate everything in their life? Yes. Every single aspect of the lives of muslim egyptians is controlled by Islam, from the political system and the insistence on application of sharia laws to which hand to use to wipe off your butt.
It just does not make sense to assume future tolerance when these people are the product of intolerance. There is a bigger goal than persecution of Copts at the moment. Once finished, the Copts will be next in line, specially if Mubarak leaves and chaos sets in. A second Iraq.
One should not be deceived by who they claim they are. Religious fanaticism is not a profession like the CNN analysts think, it is an ideology. At this time, and because their goal is all of a sudden so real and attainable, it is very cunning of them to hide their identity.
My opinion is:
These demonstrations are financed and organized by the Islamic brotherhood at large, aided by Iran, Saudi Arabia and the gulf states like Qatar. The secular voices that appear here and there are being amplified by the very biased media (all of them, including western media), to ensure a non-islamic revolution image is conveyed. In the same time, they have discarded any state reports about the identify of the protestors and dismissed it as "propaganda".
The reasons why I think that this is the work of the islamic brotherhood:
1) No group has the capacity to organize such event with such success except the brotherhood. They have had a couple of successful trial runs over the years and have mastered the art of gathering their followers at one spot for one purpose. It happened in 2003 when Iraq was invaded, in 2004 for the priest's wife islamization cause, in 2005 in the elections, in 2006 in the siege of the church of Alexandria in Meharam Beeh, and lately in the one-week demonstrations against the Pope in the end of 2010.
In all these cases, and other minor ones, they were able to organize a protest of tens of thousands, from all venues of life, from all over Egypt and transporting them by buses to the protest spot.
2) The unprecedented media support by various media outlets needs a lot of bribes and connections, only available to the brotherhood or the islamists in general. For the first time, all major media networks are offering the same view and protraying only one side of the story. CNN hosted interviews with some egyptians in the States, all of them are of fanatical islamic background.
3) The people who were freed from the prisons are mainly islamists, in a very organized effort. All of them were freed at the same hour in all prisons by attackers.
4) The police stations raided are of no interest to any group except the brotherhood. They confiscated the weapons which they will use in future terror attacks and freed their members.
5) Who benefits the most from chaos and political vacuum? Why the insistence on the instant departure of the president and all the regime to have the country collapse? The brotherhood.
From a religious point of view, I agree with Priest Peter's position for the most part. The idea of revolution puts great emphasis on the inherent goodness of man and trusts in it. Which revolution ever succeeded? What is the measure of success? And at what expense?
We cannot have a vote among bishops to determine our position. Bishop Angelos and Bishop Surial are both the product of the west. They are opposed to a certain degree or the other by the rest of the bishops in Egypt.
The best opinion was given by Anba Macarious, a true man of God.
As for the christian songs in Tahrir, do you recognize some of the faces who sing these songs or which group they belong to? Because if you do, it will be clear why these songs were tolerated.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427] I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
I was really sad when I read it, but at the same time I believe God has protected His children. It could have been much worse, at some point thousands could have been killed in the chaos and the lack of security :-\
[quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130154#msg130154 date=1297208651] [quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427] I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
What should we do with this in terms of our political position? Should things remain the same? Should we live in an Egypt where muslims attack us because they see us as Easy Targets???
What?
Or... should we at least capitlize on the advancements made in Tahrir square where Copts and Muslims are standing hand-in-hand?
Instead of cursing at the darkness "its dark! its dark!!" - light a candle.
What is your candle?
And you know what? There will be more attacks against us! Much more! But either we do something about it, or nothing. IF YOU JUST WANT TO COMPLAIN AND DO NOTHING.. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM!! DONT SAY ANYTHING.. DONT EVEN COMPLAIN. You don't have a right to complain.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, then at least I can respect that.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg130208#msg130208 date=1297239106] [quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130154#msg130154 date=1297208651] [quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427] I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
What should we do with this in terms of our political position? Should things remain the same? Should we live in an Egypt where muslims attack us because they see us as Easy Targets???
What?
Or... should we at least capitlize on the advancements made in Tahrir square where Copts and Muslims are standing hand-in-hand?
Instead of cursing at the darkness "its dark! its dark!!" - light a candle.
What is your candle?
And you know what? There will be more attacks against us! Much more! But either we do something about it, or nothing. IF YOU JUST WANT TO COMPLAIN AND DO NOTHING.. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM!! DONT SAY ANYTHING.. DONT EVEN COMPLAIN. You don't have a right to complain.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, then at least I can respect that.
And who says I don't want it to change?
You don't respect me telling it like it actually is in Egypt - you're missing the point completely. Things are NOT getting better in Egypt, and here is proof.
When did I say that we shouldn't protest or work to improve the current situations?
I have every right to complain, whether you like it or not.
[quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130211#msg130211 date=1297241833] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg130208#msg130208 date=1297239106] [quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130154#msg130154 date=1297208651] [quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427] I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
What should we do with this in terms of our political position? Should things remain the same? Should we live in an Egypt where muslims attack us because they see us as Easy Targets???
What?
Or... should we at least capitlize on the advancements made in Tahrir square where Copts and Muslims are standing hand-in-hand?
Instead of cursing at the darkness "its dark! its dark!!" - light a candle.
What is your candle?
And you know what? There will be more attacks against us! Much more! But either we do something about it, or nothing. IF YOU JUST WANT TO COMPLAIN AND DO NOTHING.. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM!! DONT SAY ANYTHING.. DONT EVEN COMPLAIN. You don't have a right to complain.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, then at least I can respect that.
And who says I don't want it to change?
You don't respect me telling it like it actually is in Egypt - you're missing the point completely. Things are NOT getting better in Egypt, and here is proof.
When did I say that we shouldn't protest or work to improve the current situations?
I have every right to complain, whether you like it or not.
Sorry, I was actually talking to ILSM.
I didnt even read your post before, so please consider that my previous post was not addressed to you.
ILSM,
If there is a shimmer of hope , we should seize it. Otherwise, don't complain about it.
There will be MORE attacks on Coptic Christians, and us staying silent and not protesting in Tahrir WITH other secularist muslims, then we've lost out.
[quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130214#msg130214 date=1297250103] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg130212#msg130212 date=1297242015] Sorry, I was actually talking to ILSM.
I didnt even read your post before, so please consider that my previous post was not addressed to you.
Fair enough, it's cool.
Friend, I don't even know who you are? What do we call u? dot?
I was talking to ILSM because he's very been understandably cynical about all this. I would generally agree with him, and I don't think that what is happening in Tahrir Square is indicative of EVERY single Egyptian (i.e. that they want to see a Cross and a Quran side by side), but my point is this:
IF THERE IS goodwill and unity between the two groups, we should capitalize on it and affirm it. When muslims see other muslims behaving in this way, they will also feel that religion should not divide Coptic Christians also. Its about changing the way Egyptians see each other.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10626.msg130152#msg130152 date=1297208165] Some simple facts:
What is thee going price of stadium sound systems (that are in place at the square)? Who put them up? Who tuned them?
What are the prices of the tents? Who set them up in the middle of the violence?
You don't think that the Brotherhood is paying people to be there? You don't think they are providing food that has gone up in price 400%?
How about all those beards? What do they signify?
The MB is 95% behind the process. There is no doubt.
You are so right, why on earth would Egyptians revolt they live under such great conditions? It'd have to be an Islamic revolution. And wow, I never thought about how rich the Muslim Brotherhood are! They might just have as much money as Hosny Mubarak to pay all these people to get out and feed them. Oh I guess they also get help from Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah to stage this disguised Islamic revolution. I guess the Ayatollah really gave it out and slipped when he called the Egyptian revolution an Islamic one. And you can really tell from the stale bread and water that the protesters eat that they are well funded or the state of the art tents made from old bed sheets they have. It's a shame some people declined the tents and decided to sleep on the ground in the cold.
Here is what Iran says about the Egyptian protests...
Iran has endorsed the Egyptian uprising against President Hosni Mubarak. More than 200 members of the Iranian Parliament signed a statement calling events in Egypt a "holy revolution" inspired by Iran's revolution.
"Thanks to the Islamic Revolution, Islam and Shiism is (sic) cultivating the world and this revolutionary culture is Islamic," one Iranian MP declared, adding that the victory of the Iranian Revolution "has turned it into a paradigm for the populace of Arab states…Today we can see the influence of the Islamic Revolution on the public opinion in Egypt, Morocco, and Tunisia."
In an interview, Salami called the unrest in Egypt a "manifestation of the [Iranian] Islamic Revolution in the Middle East region and the world of Islam."
Iran hopes that Islambouli's standing in Iran will sway the Egyptian street and help turn the Middle East into Islamist territory under its influence."
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130217#msg130217 date=1297253211] Here is what Iran says about the Egyptian protests...
Iran has endorsed the Egyptian uprising against President Hosni Mubarak. More than 200 members of the Iranian Parliament signed a statement calling events in Egypt a "holy revolution" inspired by Iran's revolution.
"Thanks to the Islamic Revolution, Islam and Shiism is (sic) cultivating the world and this revolutionary culture is Islamic," one Iranian MP declared, adding that the victory of the Iranian Revolution "has turned it into a paradigm for the populace of Arab states…Today we can see the influence of the Islamic Revolution on the public opinion in Egypt, Morocco, and Tunisia."
In an interview, Salami called the unrest in Egypt a "manifestation of the [Iranian] Islamic Revolution in the Middle East region and the world of Islam."
Iran hopes that Islambouli's standing in Iran will sway the Egyptian street and help turn the Middle East into Islamist territory under its influence."
Fr. Peter,
Many people want this to look like an Islamic Revolution. They want it to be seen as an Islamic uprising. But truth be told, its not at all.
The Muslim Brotherhood were the last group to actually participate in the protests in fact. All this started over Khaled Said sympathisers.
I'm sure you must have heard of Google's Chief of Marketing - Wael Ghonim? He's been attributed to this "uprising" - he has no affiliation to the MB.
Because many other groups also want Mubarak ousted, its easy for them to act as if their particular cause is the one causing the uprising. However, this is what we all fear:
That the MB, because they are the most organized of all oppositions, stand to take/steal from everyone else's efforts and causes.
The fact of the matter is that unless there are free and fair elections, we'll never know what Egyptians actually think and what movement or cause they actually endorse themselves.
One thing is for sure - whether you are Christian or Muslim, this "emergency law" is stupid and violent. It needs to end. It has victimized innocent people over nothing.
Al Qaeda front group The Islamic State of Iraq has called on Egyptian protesters to wage jihad and push for the establishment of a government based on Islamic law...
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=10626.msg130220#msg130220 date=1297257822] Al Qaeda front group The Islamic State of Iraq has called on Egyptian protesters to wage jihad and push for the establishment of a government based on Islamic law...
That's perfect. I thank God that they've asked for this.
It would mean that the majority of muslims would alienate themselves from anything to do with this and most likely who wanted an Islamic State would now think twice.
The more they insist on it, the more those who actually prefer Islamic laws would most likely vote the other way towards a more secularist government.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130221#msg130221 date=1297259090] I notice that a recent survey found that:
95% of Muslims in Egypt think that it is good that Islam plays a large part in politics.
Have they changed their views since December 2010 when the poll was taken? How does this view play out in a democratic situation?
absolutely horrible.
I think hope right now for a democratic state is virtually non-existant. In fact, I think the situation is about to get worse. The emergency law is still in place. That means as soon as the protestors calm down and go home, the government has the legal right to arrest everyone who went out. And probably a few extra Christians to top it off.
The new VP isn't even bothering to pretend that he has good intentions. CNN reported that he said "Egypt is not ready for democracy."
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg130221#msg130221 date=1297259090] I notice that a recent survey found that:
95% of Muslims in Egypt think that it is good that Islam plays a large part in politics.
Have they changed their views since December 2010 when the poll was taken? How does this view play out in a democratic situation?
I've spoken to muslims who feel that way , Fr. Peter, and the best way to interpret this statistic is as follows:
Islam can play a role in politics in the sense that these muslims do not want a secular state to be like the UK who fear that secularism gives rise to atheism. The "lack of God" in any society is awful for these people. That's not generally a "bad" thing (in general).
because they do not want a country like the UK (for example) with its strong atheist mindset, they therefore want someone so Islamic that will ensure that Egypt has a "religious" or "God fearing" personality as part of its national identity.
It does not mean that they endorse the Islamic ideals that AlQaida want. Not at all.
There needs to be an open debate on this where we can discuss this stuff. Facebook is not good enough.
Now the former president has resigned as we expected, it's good news. Though this was more precipitate than he planned, he nevertheless ensured the power was put in good hands and this situation is acceptable to the majority of the people, like I mentioned earlier: more than 80% of the people wanted a peaceful transition of power.
The main problems were not centered on his person alone, but mainly focused on the corrupt greedy system that he was responsible of, in keeping it valid and active - that is why he sacked the former cabinet, he couldn't do it unless backed by the army. We are aware that he lost his control over the corrupt ministers much earlier, that his sons were obviously involved in the corruption for a very long time, also that he was unable to touch the most powerful and greedy ministers, including the former criminal police system - whose minister is trying to defend himself using deceit saying that he wanted to avoid further blood shed!
I believe both Christians and Muslims of Egypt dislike the status of unrest and chaos that lately crippled the whole country. People are also fully aware of many existing threats ready to move against the country. We are all seeking a peaceful, healthier and productive positive environment, thus the peaceful transition was their wise choice. I hope this will be more evident in the following period.
Few would disagree about the fact that the whole Church is very patriotic. The Church expressed her attitude in a peaceful way, exercising good and polite manners, i.e. the Church has always been against violent and destructive acts.
We must thank the Lord for His care and we need to raise further prayers to Him for the welfare of all the poor people of Egypt and for the safety of our families and relatives.
It seems that the military committee, after consultation with the kids who were in Tahrir square, has taken active steps to write a new constitution for Egypt. News about the constitutional committee members confirm the appointment of Tarek EL-Beshry, who is known for his clear radical islamic convictions and his insistence on an islamic state. The committee also includes Sobhy Saleh, a former Parliment member who is also a prominent member of the Islamic Brotherhood.
I anticipate to appoint a Judas to this committee to make it look "balanced".
Comments
Discrimination is coming everywhere against Christians. The UK will not be exempt.
As I have said several times, there is nothing wrong with respectfully insisting on civil rights, but it is always a mistake to rely on politicians and politics. I sense that the UK is approaching a time of violent revolution, certainly in my life time unless something changes significantly, but I am not sure that I would be able to support a general revolution however much I would applaud and agree with some of the aims because it always, always replaces one corrupt regime with another regime that is rapidly corrupted. But while there is an opportunity it is always good to make the most of whatever opportunities there are to speak to those with power.
If you have a question to ask Bishop Angaelos then ask him.
Gosh.. i think i see your point.
Demonstrating is not relying on policitians to change things. Its relying on YOU to change things. That's what protesting is about. Its the will of the people.
After the alexandria attacks, i think muslims also felt the need to end the discrimination against us.
Has the discrimination ended?
Its definately not what it was... I can tell u that much!
I was very skeptical about all this - but something in Egypt has changed... its strange.
There's a strong sense of national unity and pride, and love between the 2 religious groups.
Stop dreaming.
Zoxsasi,
Stop dreaming.
Something's changed dude...
Its not the same.
Since when could we display a cross like that in public? Since when could we sing a Christian song in public?
Tahrir now is symbolic with what the youth want. Its changed. It has an image now that will last forever.
i was like u ILSM, but even though this romance with secularism and democracy may end, like all romances, it was there. It did exist, and I have a feeling that something did change in the mindset of Egyptians.
We are being used like an old rag.
Their religion is incompatible with democracy.
We shall wait and see, and you will have to return and say I am 'right'. Why, because I have 1400 years of history to back me.
They did the same thing in the 50's. They did the same against the British.
We are being used like an old rag.
Their religion is incompatible with democracy.
We shall wait and see, and you will have to return and say I am 'right'. Why, because I have 1400 years of history to back me.
dude....it's bad. did anyone watch the Sadat video speaking about them......and he himself was one of them originally.
nothing changed. Allow me to comment on your posts.
The output has to relate to the input, somehow, unless supernatural forces enter the game. There has to be a flow of events that is coherent and not amputated from reality and from the past.
If we assume that the majority of the people in Tahrir square are indeed not part of any group, then my opinion is as follows:
The people in the Tahrir square were not detached from their society and they were not isolated in special training camps. They are, by large, the product of the regime they are attacking. They are asking for democracy and tolerance, yet they are accusing anyone who opposes them or criticizes them of high treason. They grieve over abuse by the police, yet they have beaten any person against them severely. Whether the regime retains power or whether they take over, there will be a huge line of "traitors" waiting for execution in either case. This picture of "evil" regime against "loving" people is good for media purposes and EL-Jazeera reports, but not for a person who lived in Egypt.
Are they of a certain religion? The vast majority are.
Does this religion teach tolerance? No.
Have they been exposed to other ideologies in schools, at home, or by other powerful influential agencies? No.
How much time did they spend under a system that advocated hate to christians (the brotherhood system and not the regime)? About 60 years.
Were Copts persecuted by the regime or by the people? Both, but mostly by the people. They interview you for a job and reject you based on your religion. They shout behind your back: "ya nusrani ya kafeer" when walking in the street or they spit on your sister's face because she has a cross. These are the same people who are demonstrating.
Did religion infiltrate everything in their life? Yes. Every single aspect of the lives of muslim egyptians is controlled by Islam, from the political system and the insistence on application of sharia laws to which hand to use to wipe off your butt.
It just does not make sense to assume future tolerance when these people are the product of intolerance. There is a bigger goal than persecution of Copts at the moment. Once finished, the Copts will be next in line, specially if Mubarak leaves and chaos sets in. A second Iraq.
One should not be deceived by who they claim they are. Religious fanaticism is not a profession like the CNN analysts think, it is an ideology. At this time, and because their goal is all of a sudden so real and attainable, it is very cunning of them to hide their identity.
My opinion is:
These demonstrations are financed and organized by the Islamic brotherhood at large, aided by Iran, Saudi Arabia and the gulf states like Qatar. The secular voices that appear here and there are being amplified by the very biased media (all of them, including western media), to ensure a non-islamic revolution image is conveyed. In the same time, they have discarded any state reports about the identify of the protestors and dismissed it as "propaganda".
The reasons why I think that this is the work of the islamic brotherhood:
1) No group has the capacity to organize such event with such success except the brotherhood. They have had a couple of successful trial runs over the years and have mastered the art of gathering their followers at one spot for one purpose. It happened in 2003 when Iraq was invaded, in 2004 for the priest's wife islamization cause, in 2005 in the elections, in 2006 in the siege of the church of Alexandria in Meharam Beeh, and lately in the one-week demonstrations against the Pope in the end of 2010.
In all these cases, and other minor ones, they were able to organize a protest of tens of thousands, from all venues of life, from all over Egypt and transporting them by buses to the protest spot.
2) The unprecedented media support by various media outlets needs a lot of bribes and connections, only available to the brotherhood or the islamists in general. For the first time, all major media networks are offering the same view and protraying only one side of the story. CNN hosted interviews with some egyptians in the States, all of them are of fanatical islamic background.
3) The people who were freed from the prisons are mainly islamists, in a very organized effort. All of them were freed at the same hour in all prisons by attackers.
4) The police stations raided are of no interest to any group except the brotherhood. They confiscated the weapons which they will use in future terror attacks and freed their members.
5) Who benefits the most from chaos and political vacuum? Why the insistence on the instant departure of the president and all the regime to have the country collapse? The brotherhood.
From a religious point of view, I agree with Priest Peter's position for the most part. The idea of revolution puts great emphasis on the inherent goodness of man and trusts in it. Which revolution ever succeeded? What is the measure of success? And at what expense?
We cannot have a vote among bishops to determine our position. Bishop Angelos and Bishop Surial are both the product of the west. They are opposed to a certain degree or the other by the rest of the bishops in Egypt.
The best opinion was given by Anba Macarious, a true man of God.
As for the christian songs in Tahrir, do you recognize some of the faces who sing these songs or which group they belong to? Because if you do, it will be clear why these songs were tolerated.
Great exposition. My sentiments exactly.
The oil states also benefit with increased speculative pricing of the oil commodities.
BTW: Which Bp Macarious do you mean? The Eritrean?
What is thee going price of stadium sound systems (that are in place at the square)?
Who put them up?
Who tuned them?
What are the prices of the tents?
Who set them up in the middle of the violence?
You don't think that the Brotherhood is paying people to be there? You don't think they are providing food that has gone up in price 400%?
How about all those beards? What do they signify?
The MB is 95% behind the process. There is no doubt.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142147
I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142147
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
[Sarcasm] This article has no relevance. It would make Islam appear for what it really is.
Were they singing together before they went into the whole massacre?
You forget. We are all brothers in the national identity.
It could have been much worse, at some point thousands could have been killed in the chaos and the lack of security :-\
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427]
I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142147
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
What should we do with this in terms of our political position? Should things remain the same? Should we live in an Egypt where muslims attack us because they see us as Easy Targets???
What?
Or... should we at least capitlize on the advancements made in Tahrir square where Copts and Muslims are standing hand-in-hand?
Instead of cursing at the darkness "its dark! its dark!!" - light a candle.
What is your candle?
And you know what? There will be more attacks against us! Much more! But either we do something about it, or nothing. IF YOU JUST WANT TO COMPLAIN AND DO NOTHING.. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM!! DONT SAY ANYTHING.. DONT EVEN COMPLAIN. You don't have a right to complain.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, then at least I can respect that.
[quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130154#msg130154 date=1297208651]
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427]
I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142147
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
What should we do with this in terms of our political position? Should things remain the same? Should we live in an Egypt where muslims attack us because they see us as Easy Targets???
What?
Or... should we at least capitlize on the advancements made in Tahrir square where Copts and Muslims are standing hand-in-hand?
Instead of cursing at the darkness "its dark! its dark!!" - light a candle.
What is your candle?
And you know what? There will be more attacks against us! Much more! But either we do something about it, or nothing. IF YOU JUST WANT TO COMPLAIN AND DO NOTHING.. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM!! DONT SAY ANYTHING.. DONT EVEN COMPLAIN. You don't have a right to complain.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, then at least I can respect that.
And who says I don't want it to change?
You don't respect me telling it like it actually is in Egypt - you're missing the point completely. Things are NOT getting better in Egypt, and here is proof.
When did I say that we shouldn't protest or work to improve the current situations?
I have every right to complain, whether you like it or not.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg130208#msg130208 date=1297239106]
[quote author=. link=topic=10626.msg130154#msg130154 date=1297208651]
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10626.msg130153#msg130153 date=1297208427]
I'm not sure if this is fit for this thread, but has anyone read this news article?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142147
Who was is it who was going on about conditions in Egypt improving?
What should we do with this in terms of our political position? Should things remain the same? Should we live in an Egypt where muslims attack us because they see us as Easy Targets???
What?
Or... should we at least capitlize on the advancements made in Tahrir square where Copts and Muslims are standing hand-in-hand?
Instead of cursing at the darkness "its dark! its dark!!" - light a candle.
What is your candle?
And you know what? There will be more attacks against us! Much more! But either we do something about it, or nothing. IF YOU JUST WANT TO COMPLAIN AND DO NOTHING.. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM!! DONT SAY ANYTHING.. DONT EVEN COMPLAIN. You don't have a right to complain.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, then at least I can respect that.
And who says I don't want it to change?
You don't respect me telling it like it actually is in Egypt - you're missing the point completely. Things are NOT getting better in Egypt, and here is proof.
When did I say that we shouldn't protest or work to improve the current situations?
I have every right to complain, whether you like it or not.
Sorry, I was actually talking to ILSM.
I didnt even read your post before, so please consider that my previous post was not addressed to you.
ILSM,
If there is a shimmer of hope , we should seize it. Otherwise, don't complain about it.
There will be MORE attacks on Coptic Christians, and us staying silent and not protesting in Tahrir WITH other secularist muslims, then we've lost out.
Sorry, I was actually talking to ILSM.
I didnt even read your post before, so please consider that my previous post was not addressed to you.
Fair enough, it's cool.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg130212#msg130212 date=1297242015]
Sorry, I was actually talking to ILSM.
I didnt even read your post before, so please consider that my previous post was not addressed to you.
Fair enough, it's cool.
Friend, I don't even know who you are? What do we call u? dot?
I was talking to ILSM because he's very been understandably cynical about all this. I would generally agree with him, and I don't think that what is happening in Tahrir Square is indicative of EVERY single Egyptian (i.e. that they want to see a Cross and a Quran side by side), but my point is this:
IF THERE IS goodwill and unity between the two groups, we should capitalize on it and affirm it. When muslims see other muslims behaving in this way, they will also feel that religion should not divide Coptic Christians also. Its about changing the way Egyptians see each other.
Some simple facts:
What is thee going price of stadium sound systems (that are in place at the square)?
Who put them up?
Who tuned them?
What are the prices of the tents?
Who set them up in the middle of the violence?
You don't think that the Brotherhood is paying people to be there? You don't think they are providing food that has gone up in price 400%?
How about all those beards? What do they signify?
The MB is 95% behind the process. There is no doubt.
You are so right, why on earth would Egyptians revolt they live under such great conditions? It'd have to be an Islamic revolution. And wow, I never thought about how rich the Muslim Brotherhood are! They might just have as much money as Hosny Mubarak to pay all these people to get out and feed them. Oh I guess they also get help from Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah to stage this disguised Islamic revolution. I guess the Ayatollah really gave it out and slipped when he called the Egyptian revolution an Islamic one.
And you can really tell from the stale bread and water that the protesters eat that they are well funded or the state of the art tents made from old bed sheets they have. It's a shame some people declined the tents and decided to sleep on the ground in the cold.
Iran has endorsed the Egyptian uprising against President Hosni Mubarak. More than 200 members of the Iranian Parliament signed a statement calling events in Egypt a "holy revolution" inspired by Iran's revolution.
"Thanks to the Islamic Revolution, Islam and Shiism is (sic) cultivating the world and this revolutionary culture is Islamic," one Iranian MP declared, adding that the victory of the Iranian Revolution "has turned it into a paradigm for the populace of Arab states…Today we can see the influence of the Islamic Revolution on the public opinion in Egypt, Morocco, and Tunisia."
In an interview, Salami called the unrest in Egypt a "manifestation of the [Iranian] Islamic Revolution in the Middle East region and the world of Islam."
Iran hopes that Islambouli's standing in Iran will sway the Egyptian street and help turn the Middle East into Islamist territory under its influence."
Here is what Iran says about the Egyptian protests...
Iran has endorsed the Egyptian uprising against President Hosni Mubarak. More than 200 members of the Iranian Parliament signed a statement calling events in Egypt a "holy revolution" inspired by Iran's revolution.
"Thanks to the Islamic Revolution, Islam and Shiism is (sic) cultivating the world and this revolutionary culture is Islamic," one Iranian MP declared, adding that the victory of the Iranian Revolution "has turned it into a paradigm for the populace of Arab states…Today we can see the influence of the Islamic Revolution on the public opinion in Egypt, Morocco, and Tunisia."
In an interview, Salami called the unrest in Egypt a "manifestation of the [Iranian] Islamic Revolution in the Middle East region and the world of Islam."
Iran hopes that Islambouli's standing in Iran will sway the Egyptian street and help turn the Middle East into Islamist territory under its influence."
Fr. Peter,
Many people want this to look like an Islamic Revolution. They want it to be seen as an Islamic uprising. But truth be told, its not at all.
The Muslim Brotherhood were the last group to actually participate in the protests in fact. All this started over Khaled Said sympathisers.
I'm sure you must have heard of Google's Chief of Marketing - Wael Ghonim? He's been attributed to this "uprising" - he has no affiliation to the MB.
Because many other groups also want Mubarak ousted, its easy for them to act as if their particular cause is the one causing the uprising. However, this is what we all fear:
That the MB, because they are the most organized of all oppositions, stand to take/steal from everyone else's efforts and causes.
The fact of the matter is that unless there are free and fair elections, we'll never know what Egyptians actually think and what movement or cause they actually endorse themselves.
One thing is for sure - whether you are Christian or Muslim, this "emergency law" is stupid and violent. It needs to end. It has victimized innocent people over nothing.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/09/3134443.htm
95% of Muslims in Egypt think that it is good that Islam plays a large part in politics.
Have they changed their views since December 2010 when the poll was taken? How does this view play out in a democratic situation?
Al Qaeda front group The Islamic State of Iraq has called on Egyptian protesters to wage jihad and push for the establishment of a government based on Islamic law...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/09/3134443.htm
That's perfect. I thank God that they've asked for this.
It would mean that the majority of muslims would alienate themselves from anything to do with this and most likely who wanted an Islamic State would now think twice.
The more they insist on it, the more those who actually prefer Islamic laws would most likely vote the other way towards a more secularist government.
I notice that a recent survey found that:
95% of Muslims in Egypt think that it is good that Islam plays a large part in politics.
Have they changed their views since December 2010 when the poll was taken? How does this view play out in a democratic situation?
absolutely horrible.
I think hope right now for a democratic state is virtually non-existant. In fact, I think the situation is about to get worse. The emergency law is still in place. That means as soon as the protestors calm down and go home, the government has the legal right to arrest everyone who went out. And probably a few extra Christians to top it off.
The new VP isn't even bothering to pretend that he has good intentions. CNN reported that he said "Egypt is not ready for democracy."
I notice that a recent survey found that:
95% of Muslims in Egypt think that it is good that Islam plays a large part in politics.
Have they changed their views since December 2010 when the poll was taken? How does this view play out in a democratic situation?
I've spoken to muslims who feel that way , Fr. Peter, and the best way to interpret this statistic is as follows:
Islam can play a role in politics in the sense that these muslims do not want a secular state to be like the UK who fear that secularism gives rise to atheism. The "lack of God" in any society is awful for these people. That's not generally a "bad" thing (in general).
because they do not want a country like the UK (for example) with its strong atheist mindset, they therefore want someone so Islamic that will ensure that Egypt has a "religious" or "God fearing" personality as part of its national identity.
It does not mean that they endorse the Islamic ideals that AlQaida want. Not at all.
There needs to be an open debate on this where we can discuss this stuff. Facebook is not good enough.
The main problems were not centered on his person alone, but mainly focused on the corrupt greedy system that he was responsible of, in keeping it valid and active - that is why he sacked the former cabinet, he couldn't do it unless backed by the army. We are aware that he lost his control over the corrupt ministers much earlier, that his sons were obviously involved in the corruption for a very long time, also that he was unable to touch the most powerful and greedy ministers, including the former criminal police system - whose minister is trying to defend himself using deceit saying that he wanted to avoid further blood shed!
I believe both Christians and Muslims of Egypt dislike the status of unrest and chaos that lately crippled the whole country. People are also fully aware of many existing threats ready to move against the country. We are all seeking a peaceful, healthier and productive positive environment, thus the peaceful transition was their wise choice. I hope this will be more evident in the following period.
Few would disagree about the fact that the whole Church is very patriotic. The Church expressed her attitude in a peaceful way, exercising good and polite manners, i.e. the Church has always been against violent and destructive acts.
We must thank the Lord for His care and we need to raise further prayers to Him for the welfare of all the poor people of Egypt and for the safety of our families and relatives.
GBU
I anticipate to appoint a Judas to this committee to make it look "balanced".