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Circuit and Litany

Cyril97Cyril97
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hi all,

There is this one deacon that is very respected in my church and that know the rites well.
During, the Incense Circuit, he only holds the cross.
In this link, this is said to be O.K, a little indirectly.
... on the opposite side of the altar is the deacon who holds the cross and responds.
I assume this is correct !?!
He also hold the cross and stands outside the altar when he responds (not only when he responds)
He is never in the altar unless abouna is with him. I asked him once he said, no deacon can be in the altar without abouna.
Is this proper rites?
Also, I know that there are continual changes/updates in something called the "magma7".
Where can I inform myself about these changes?
God bless, Pray for me,

Cyril
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Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    Ugghh!! You are making me jealous, Cyril!

    How mega lucky you are to get to be a deacon. ::)
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    My sister always tells me that she wishes to be a deacon too but, we are all made for a certain duty.
    Not all boys (supposed to be) can be deacon's. Only some boys. And NONE of us are worthy
    Girls have a certain duty too. Of course, it is not for all girls aswell.
    We should just be happy with what God gave us and zeal not be jealous.
    I am not trying to open this topic but yeah.
    Anyways, is the above right according to the rite.
    God bless, Pray for me,

    Cyril
  • [Deleted User]
    I was joking about the jealous part....lol. ;)

    But very wise words from a very wise deacon.

    Sorry for interrupting your topic. Please ignore me and forgive me.

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    The litanies that abouna prays do have responses that the deacon is supposed to say. It doesn't have to be audible that it is heard but most definitely should be said. Look up the book Spirituality of the Liturgy by HG Anba Metaous. There it lists the litanies that the priest is praying and you can look up the responses from any kholagy. I haven't personally heard that the deacon cannot be inside the sanctuary without a priest. But during Matins and Vespers the proper practice is that if the priest is praying a litany outside the Sanctuary or at the door the deacon should be outside with a cross to respond. That is why if the priest goes into the sanctuary for example for the litany of the Oblations the deacon enters and responds from inside. Someone else can confirm or reject the notion that the deacon cannot be inside unless the priest is. That is the first I have heard that.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    Thanks for clairification. What you're saying sounds about right and makes sense.
    I know the deacon should respond to abouna during the circuit but should he be holding
    the cross only as I understood from HG's book and from my friend or with a cross and gospel?
    Thank you so much for your kind words CopticStrength, my SISTER!!!  ;)
    God bless, Pray for me,

    Cyril
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    Just the cross.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    Does your church do that or is it a rite that is ignored?
    I heard that the gospel was added to include little children's participation. Is this true?
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132326#msg132326 date=1299550742]
    Does your church do that or is it a rite that is ignored?
    I heard that the gospel was added to include little children's participation. Is this true?


    Yup! that's exactly what my deaconate teachers taught us. they added the gospel to pull children into the liturgy so they don't get bored. eventually over time, it became a rite in people's minds but it really is not correct. I got yelled at by a deacon who thinks he knows everything (he is younger than me kamaan) when i only held the cross.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132326#msg132326 date=1299550742]
    Does your church do that or is it a rite that is ignored?
    I heard that the gospel was added to include little children's participation. Is this true?


    hmm. my last post was marked as spam. i said this:
    Yup! that's exactly what my deaconate teachers taught us. they added the gospel to pull children into the liturgy so they don't get bored. eventually over time, it became a rite in people's minds but it really is not correct. I got yelled at by a deacon who thinks he knows everything (he is younger than me kamaan) when i only held the cross.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I support what JY said. to add, the deacon also hold the cross during any of the procession. the "bishara", the gospel as we say in english is put aside mainly for the litany of the Gospel only. but what is done now is that you let little deacons do the processions and to allow more of them to do it, you added the bishara.
    i dono about "the deacon must not be in the altar without abouna." it's a very strict rule that i have not heard before. specifically when you have more than one deacon serving in matins or vespers.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    So just the cross?
    How about during the circuit of the Catholic Episle or the Acts?
    Is it only the cross? I makes sense that youwuold add the bishara
    because it is symbolizing the word of God going aroung the whole world. Right?
    So during vespers and matins, you says the responses for Peace, Fathers, Something else.
    Hoe about for the circuit of the Catholic Episle or the Acts what do you respond?
    I noticed that there are only 3 responses when you go around/ stop 6 times?
    What do you say for the rest of the three times?
    What if an older deacon thinks I am wrong. What should I do?
    God bless, Pray for me,

    Cyril
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132431#msg132431 date=1299617282]

    So during vespers and matins, you says the responses for Peace, Fathers, Something else.
    Hoe about for the circuit of the Catholic Episle or the Acts what do you respond?
    I noticed that there are only 3 responses when you go around/ stop 6 times?
    What do you say for the rest of the three times?

    As you are circuiting, the priest is saying the prayer as well. First is the litany of the church. Then the litany of fathers. the last one is the litany of congregations. during the last 3, the deacon doesn't say anything (from my understanding) because the priest is praying parts of the litany of the congregations (without hindrance or obstacle....arise o Lord...but let those). They are the same for every circuit.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    just learn that  this is the original rite...not much people follow it. but many just have the cross and the bishara. i am saying this to not cause problems between you and older deacons.
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132431#msg132431 date=1299617282]
    So just the cross?
    How about during the circuit of the Catholic Episle or the Acts?
    Is it only the cross? I makes sense that youwuold add the bishara
    because it is symbolizing the word of God going aroung the whole world. Right?

    those are in the Bible but not "THE GOSPEL"....not they are less important but it's just the way it is.

    So during vespers and matins, you says the responses for Peace, Fathers, Something else.
    Hoe about for the circuit of the Catholic Episle or the Acts what do you respond?
    I noticed that there are only 3 responses when you go around/ stop 6 times?
    What do you say for the rest of the three times?

    3 processions, 6 "stands":
    1-abouna faces the east, you face the west, you respond with the Peace.
    2-abouna faces west, you east, you respond with the fathers,
    3-abouna faces east, you west, you respond with the congregation (or assemblies)
    4-abouna faces west, you east, you say nothing
    5-abouna faces east, you west, you say nothing
    6-abouna faces west, you west, you say nothing and than bow down.

    i have seen some people memorize the litany with abouna and sometimes say parts of it....but that is just a custom rather than a rule

    What if an older deacon thinks I am wrong. What should I do?

    well i doubt they will stop you in the middle of the procession to tell you you are wrong. if they still insist on you being wrong than simply ask what is right.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    I apologize for my stupidity.
    So when I am doing the circuit for the Catholic Episle or the Acts, what should I hold?
    Another wise ol deacon told me that when abouna is not supposed to say those prayers doing the circuit.
    Is this true? That means that I should respond even if abouna is saying the prayers. Right?
    So, if I pick up the cross and a deacon gives me the bishara, should I take it?
    I am often the oldest in the altar, should I encourage little kids to do the circuit with the cross or with the bishara too?
    That's all the questions I have... for now.
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132444#msg132444 date=1299618696]
    I apologize for my stupidity.
    So when I am doing the circuit for the Catholic Episle or the Acts, what should I hold?
    Another wise ol deacon told me that when abouna is not supposed to say those prayers doing the circuit.
    Is this true? That means that I should respond even if abouna is saying the prayers. Right?

    that is not right. ask him what is his source.

    So, if I pick up the cross and a deacon gives me the bishara, should I take it?
    I am often the oldest in the altar, should I encourage little kids to do the circuit with the cross or with the bishara too?

    do what your church deacons do.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Once the curtain has been opened, there should always be a deacon in attendance in the altar.  How can the seated King be left by Himself?

    Whoever told you that concerning the deacon/priest in the altar is definitely incorrect.

    As for the circuit around the altar, in completion to the Litanies, the priest's portions are select from the Psalms.  Saying them, as a deacon, is giving hymn and honor, by Psalm as you attend and circuit around the Holy Altar.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10928.msg132447#msg132447 date=1299618820]
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132444#msg132444 date=1299618696]
    I apologize for my stupidity.
    So when I am doing the circuit for the Catholic Episle or the Acts, what should I hold?
    Another wise ol deacon told me that when abouna is not supposed to say those prayers doing the circuit.
    Is this true? That means that I should respond even if abouna is saying the prayers. Right?

    that is not right. ask him what is his source.

    So, if I pick up the cross and a deacon gives me the bishara, should I take it?
    I am often the oldest in the altar, should I encourage little kids to do the circuit with the cross or with the bishara too?

    do what your church deacons do.

    I don't want to do what my church deacons do, I want to do what is right.
    So is that a yes or no for the catholic and acts reading?[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10928.msg132458#msg132458 date=1299619760]
    Once the curtain has been opened, there should always be a deacon in attendance in the altar.  How can the seated King be left by Himself?

    Whoever told you that concerning the deacon/priest in the altar is definitely incorrect.

    As for the circuit around the altar, in completion to the Litanies, the priest's portions are select from the Psalms.  Saying them, as a deacon, is giving hymn and honor, by Psalm as you attend and circuit around the Holy Altar.

    Am I supposed to recite hymns and Psalms instead of responding???
    I am really confused.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    My post is flagged as spam???
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10928.msg132447#msg132447 date=1299618820]
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132444#msg132444 date=1299618696]
    I apologize for my stupidity.
    So when I am doing the circuit for the Catholic Episle or the Acts, what should I hold?
    Another wise ol deacon told me that when abouna is not supposed to say those prayers doing the circuit.
    Is this true? That means that I should respond even if abouna is saying the prayers. Right?

    that is not right. ask him what is his source.

    So, if I pick up the cross and a deacon gives me the bishara, should I take it?
    I am often the oldest in the altar, should I encourage little kids to do the circuit with the cross or with the bishara too?

    do what your church deacons do.

    I don't want to do what my church deacons do, I want to do what is right.
    So is that a yes or no for the catholic and acts reading?     [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10928.msg132458#msg132458 date=1299619760]
    Once the curtain has been opened, there should always be a deacon in attendance in the altar.  How can the seated King be left by Himself?

    Whoever told you that concerning the deacon/priest in the altar is definitely incorrect.

    As for the circuit around the altar, in completion to the Litanies, the priest's portions are select from the Psalms.  Saying them, as a deacon, is giving hymn and honor, by Psalm as you attend and circuit around the Holy Altar.

    Am I supposed to recite hymns and Psalms instead of responding???
    I am really confused.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132466#msg132466 date=1299620374]
    My post is flagged as spam???
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10928.msg132447#msg132447 date=1299618820]
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132444#msg132444 date=1299618696]
    I apologize for my stupidity.
    So when I am doing the circuit for the Catholic Episle or the Acts, what should I hold?
    Another wise ol deacon told me that when abouna is not supposed to say those prayers doing the circuit.
    Is this true? That means that I should respond even if abouna is saying the prayers. Right?

    that is not right. ask him what is his source.

    So, if I pick up the cross and a deacon gives me the bishara, should I take it?
    I am often the oldest in the altar, should I encourage little kids to do the circuit with the cross or with the bishara too?

    do what your church deacons do.

    I don't want to do what my church deacons do, I want to do what is right.
    So is that a yes or no for the catholic and acts reading?
    but both are acceptable. in this case, for you to not lose the support of your deacons, you do what they do.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel

    I don't want to do what my church deacons do, I want to do what is right.
    So is that a yes or no for the catholic and acts reading?

    but both are acceptable. in this case, for you to not lose the support of your deacons, you do what they do.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    How about the catholic epistle and acts circuit. Should it be cross or cross + bishara.
    BTW, it is supposed to be that whenever abouna is not in the altar, the deacon can't be in it either. Only during the service.
    GB, PFM,
    Cyril
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    That includes the Acts/circuit:  cross only.

    Litany of the Gospel:  both.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    Got it. Thanks.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132306#msg132306 date=1299544729]
    Also, I know that there are continual changes/updates in something called the "magma7".
    Where can I inform myself about these changes?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril

    ? ? ?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132720#msg132720 date=1299852369]
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132306#msg132306 date=1299544729]
    Also, I know that there are continual changes/updates in something called the "magma7".
    Where can I inform myself about these changes?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril

    ? ? ?

    i think you mean "magma3" (3= 'een as in Adel) which means "Commemoration." it refers to the Commemoration of Saints. In psalmody, nothings changes. in the liturgy, it all depends on the priest. they are allowed to added canonized saints to the end of it....most of the time the patron saints of the church or the altar. you are probably asking because people might of said that Pope Kerrelos VI is added there. that is not right: Pope Kerrelos VI, though a great saint, is not a canonized saint yet. He is a saint on the patriarchal rank. THERE IS a special litany for a departed pope that can be said after the magma' in liturgy. i think it is originally in St. Cyril's liturgy but i think in the 2nd edition of the southern diocese liturgy book they have in saint Basil's
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    Firstly, sorry for my failed arabic-english typing.
    Secondly, no. I was talking about Albair is always talking about the magma3
    with anba mateous. I think it has to something with the church rites or hymns.
    If anyone knows what I am talking about, please explain this phenomenone unkonw
    to my mind.
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10928.msg132726#msg132726 date=1299856301]
    Firstly, sorry for my failed arabic-english typing.
    Secondly, no. I was talking about Albair is always talking about the magma3
    with anba mateous. I think it has to something with the church rites or hymns.

    i don't get it.
  • the_leastthe_least
    I believe Cyril is referring to the Holy Synod (Al-Magma3 Al-moqadas in Arabic)
  • the_leastthe_least
    Also, concerning following the proper rites in the Church, if you see something being done that you think is wrong then bring it up in your deacons meeting and have Abouna attend and together decide if there is something to be changed. After that, DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE DECIDED, NO MATTER WHAT DEGREE OF CORRECTNESS YOU THINK IT IS, and take the blessing of obedience.
  • Cyril97Cyril97
    Yes I am referring to the Holy Synod.
    I feel sad to tell you this but in my church, we don't have "Deacon Meetings"
    Very unfortunate!
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
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