Lent Psalm 150 Response

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
So there is a HUGE debate between the deacons in my church about the psalm 150 response during lent. Some deacons say "A Isoos...". actually one deacon said it and now many follow him. Others say the same thing minus the A so bascially some people add an A before the response.  Is this correct/acceptable? I don't think it is...I thought the A was there as a place holder something but someone actually put an alpha before isoos on our lenten powerpoint.

thanks!
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Comments

  • Either A Isoos or afernestivin. The A and af place the sentence in a past tense. Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
  • This debate reemerges every year at my church. I do not see the argument for those who insist on keeping it without the past tense marker. It just lends to the argument people have that we are up there just saying things we don't understand in Coptic because it sounds "cool." If certain deacons remain persistent in not changing to "A-Isos" what is one to do?
  • [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=10941.msg132428#msg132428 date=1299616572]
    If certain deacons remain persistent in not changing to "A-Isos" what is one to do?

    pray for them.  :)
  • I will. But is it wrong to get abouna involved? It is amazing how one syllable can create disunity.
  • so it IS supposed to be A-isoos? I haven't heard it or seen it like that until a few years ago.
  • It is not wrong to get your priest involved as long as he is not used to support various sides or parties in the congregation.

    But he should certainly be able to say, 'This is how we will act in the Church', and be obeyed when there is a situation which is causing disunity.

    Father Peter
  • I agree with you Fr. Peter. But the whole congregation is used to the incorrect way of leaving out the past tense marker. That is why no one wants to "confuse" them. How does one go about informing them the reason for the change (this is a congregation of about 300). Is it proper for a deacon to ever make such an announcement before beginning the communion hymns?

    I obviously cannot tell abouna to make an announcement to the congregation - although, I think he should explain it. He might be willing to tell all the deacons to change how they say the Psalm 150 response but then the people will not understand why we did this.
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10941.msg132434#msg132434 date=1299617699]
    so it IS supposed to be A-isoos? I haven't heard it or seen it like that until a few years ago.

    it's as JY said, you either "a esous pikhrestos ernestevin" or "esous pikhrestos afernestivin"......
    you have to put the action done by Christ in the past tense. tell to read the arabic translation: "yasou' al-maseh sama 'anna...", meaning He FASTED for us. we don't say "yasou' al-maseh ya-soum..." meaning He fasts for us.
  • I would provide plenty of notice of a change, with a written explanation distributed to all from the priest so that it is clear WHY the change is happening, and that it is not a matter of taste or personal preference but of accuracy in the use of the Coptic language.

    On the date when the change has been planned then the deacons should use the correct wording.

    Father Peter
  • That makes perfect sense. I will suggest that to my priest. But in any other case, would it be proper for the head deacon to announce something during the liturgy, before the beginning of the communion hymns.
  • Despite my coming from an evangelical background, or maybe because of it, I have never felt happy with any announcements in the Liturgy at all, and as a priest I have never given any announcements.

    It would seem to me that they should be reserved for the period after the dismissal, or during the refreshments after the liturgy. I don't know what is appropriate in your situation. Probably after the dismissal the priest could ask everyone to be seated and to listen to the Deacon who will explain some liturgical points. But I would not ever personally want to interrupt the liturgy for anything especially not at communion. But even earlier, say after the sermon, making an announcement would distract people who would want to talk about it.

    Father Peter
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10941.msg132454#msg132454 date=1299619352]
    Despite my coming from an evangelical background, or maybe because of it, I have never felt happy with any announcements in the Liturgy at all, and as a priest I have never given any announcements.

    It would seem to me that they should be reserved for the period after the dismissal, or during the refreshments after the liturgy. I don't know what is appropriate in your situation. Probably after the dismissal the priest could ask everyone to be seated and to listen to the Deacon who will explain some liturgical points. But I would not ever personally want to interrupt the liturgy for anything especially not at communion. But even earlier, say after the sermon, making an announcement would distract people who would want to talk about it.

    Father Peter

    well the problem is that many deacons in churches are just not unified. many just do what they want persisting it is right. in this case you need the next rank in line to unify. that would be the priest.
    Some churches don't worry about this becuase deacons are close together to decide what to say and what to do in certain rites that change.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10941.msg132446#msg132446 date=1299618757]
    I would provide plenty of notice of a change, with a written explanation distributed to all from the priest so that it is clear WHY the change is happening, and that it is not a matter of taste or personal preference but of accuracy in the use of the Coptic language.

    On the date when the change has been planned then the deacons should use the correct wording.

    Father Peter

    how do you explain this is to a 2200 family church with over 200 "deacons" whose priests have many more problems to worry about...
  • copticuser20,

    Ask Abouna Michael Tobia, at your church, and he will give you the best answer.  He is meticulous about these issues.
  • Lol! I'd like such a problem.

    It could still be put in the bulletin. I would imagine that there must be communication structures in place. And after a period of notice the change would take place.

    There are always lots of issues and problems, but praying something that doesn't make sense is surely not glorifying to God. I would expect that the local bishop might have a view, in that there should be a standard and accurate liturgical text in each diocese. But if he doesn't think it is an issue then he is the best judge of how and when to handle things.

    In my own experience though, my bishop has said - I would like us to do this - and after instructing people we just obey. And if there is something I feel strongly about then in discussion I will ask for the same obedience. I guess I mean that it should not be difficult to correct this phrase, it is just a matter of instruction and obedience. It is not even a matter of preference in terms of English translation, but it is a matter of wrong Coptic grammar. So it seems pretty unassailable as a correction.

    Father Peter
  • [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10941.msg132459#msg132459 date=1299619845]
    copticuser20,

    Ask Abouna Michael Tobia, at your church, and he will give you the best answer.  He is meticulous about these issues.

    wow....i actually just heard a beautiful St.Cyril's liturgy for him with abouna Markos Abdel-masseh
  • Even though we are Egyptians and we like to argue, most of us don't know this.
    I had no idea and was saying isos pikhristos ereenestevin... the whole time.
    I was just mis-informed. This should be changed in the church books too.
    GB, PFM,
    Cyril
  • Guys... guys.... stop it. Don't make up wrong explanations... there is no such a thing as Iycouc P,C ernycteuin. This sentence doesn't make any sense grammatically speaking, so don't volunteer to translate it, as it is not translateable....
    Oujai
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10941.msg132495#msg132495 date=1299624830]
    So why does Wagdi Bishara,(http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Great_Lent/Wagdi_Bishara/Great_Lent_-_Liturgy.html) and Ibrahim Ayad (http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Great_Lent/Ibrahim_Ayad/Great_Lent_-_Sat_and_Sun_Liturgy/06.psalm150_coptic.68.mp3) say it without the A?


    Many of the old Cantors didn't have the knowledge of correct grammar and language, but passed down whatever they received from memory.

    As an example, take the Good Friday Hymn Pek;ronoc. Every single recording of Cantor I have heard says "Pek-E-thronos" (Pek`;ronoc, emphasis on the Jinkim). In Greek, there is NO Jinkim (that little accent thing), so it should be pronounced "Pek - thronos." But this isn't what is recorded, and the melody would have to be altered if that syllable were removed (Perhaps added onto the "Pek" beforehand).

    The second word is `e`Vnou] ("E-efnouti"). Again, most of the Cantors record it as "E - eeeee -efnouti" (as if the Coptic letter y ("eeta," pronounced like "ee" in "deep") were there. It isn't. It should be "E-Efnouti" (The second "E" pronounced like the first).

    So then you have to ask the question - do you correct hymns from grammatical/pronounciated mistakes like these, with the knowledge that you have which our ancestors didn't? Or do you just leave them the way they are and take it as unchangeable heritage?
  • That's what I was saying. Not necessarily because we are ignorent
    but more because we don't know!
    Cyril
  • [quote author=JG link=topic=10941.msg132501#msg132501 date=1299626780]
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10941.msg132495#msg132495 date=1299624830]
    So why does Wagdi Bishara,(http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Great_Lent/Wagdi_Bishara/Great_Lent_-_Liturgy.html) and Ibrahim Ayad (http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Great_Lent/Ibrahim_Ayad/Great_Lent_-_Sat_and_Sun_Liturgy/06.psalm150_coptic.68.mp3) say it without the A?


    Many of the old Cantors didn't have the knowledge of correct grammar and language, but passed down whatever they received from memory.

    As an example, take the Good Friday Hymn Pek;ronoc. Every single recording of Cantor I have heard says "Pek-E-thronos" (Pek`;ronoc, emphasis on the Jinkim). In Greek, there is NO Jinkim (that little accent thing), so it should be pronounced "Pek - thronos." But this isn't what is recorded, and the melody would have to be altered if that syllable were removed (Perhaps added onto the "Pek" beforehand).

    The second word is `e`Vnou] ("E-efnouti"). Again, most of the Cantors record it as "E - eeeee -efnouti" (as if the Coptic letter y ("eeta," pronounced like "ee" in "deep") were there. It isn't. It should be "E-Efnouti" (The second "E" pronounced like the first).

    So then you have to ask the question - do you correct hymns from grammatical/pronounciated mistakes like these, with the knowledge that you have which our ancestors didn't? Or do you just leave them the way they are and take it as unchangeable heritage?



    It depends on the situation. Such as the psalm response it should most definitely be corrected, since this not a matter of pronunciation but of grammer. In the case of Pekethronos, since it is a coptic psalm it retains coptic pronunciation. In fact all of our hymns whether of greek origin or not are pronounced in coptic manner. Since the jinkim is there, it should be pronounced pekethronos, not pek-thronos. Recent cantors have corrected this mistake of Ee efnouty. Ibrahim Ayads recording says E-efnouty. Pronunciation will constantly be debated, however grammar should be corrected. Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.
  • But how do you (or anyone) go up to a congregation and say "Oh hi guys. Yeah we have been saying this hymn wrong for the past uh... 20 years so here is the correct way to say it." I am sure Pekethronos (<3) and the Psalm 150 response aren't the only two hymns that have mistakes. People memorize the hymns one way and block out another way for various reasons...including so others do not mess you up (I am guessing that is how most mistakes occur in our church...someone not knowing a hymn completely and messing up those who do).We see memorization with the words and even the tunes! I have been to many churches in a 30 mile radius of my church and not 2 churches say either "As it was" or "Amen Amen Amen Your death" (Words and tune!) the same way. I tried explaining to a few fellow deacons tonight during Liturgy how there is an "A" before the Psalm 150 response and an Older Deacon comes up to me and says I am wrong and so is anyone else who says that...

    Sorry...i get angry when people are stubborn  :-\. I hope someone understands anything i just said lol
  • I understand you completely copticuser20,

    I was in the same boat last year. I just let the issue go, I think that was a wrong move. The best thing is to bring it to the priest. As long as your intention isn't to "have your way" and is simply to correct a mistake, then there is nothing wrong with telling your priest.
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132545#msg132545 date=1299637874]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=10941.msg132501#msg132501 date=1299626780]
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10941.msg132495#msg132495 date=1299624830]
    So why does Wagdi Bishara,(http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Great_Lent/Wagdi_Bishara/Great_Lent_-_Liturgy.html) and Ibrahim Ayad (http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Great_Lent/Ibrahim_Ayad/Great_Lent_-_Sat_and_Sun_Liturgy/06.psalm150_coptic.68.mp3) say it without the A?


    Many of the old Cantors didn't have the knowledge of correct grammar and language, but passed down whatever they received from memory.

    As an example, take the Good Friday Hymn Pek;ronoc. Every single recording of Cantor I have heard says "Pek-E-thronos" (Pek`;ronoc, emphasis on the Jinkim). In Greek, there is NO Jinkim (that little accent thing), so it should be pronounced "Pek - thronos." But this isn't what is recorded, and the melody would have to be altered if that syllable were removed (Perhaps added onto the "Pek" beforehand).

    The second word is `e`Vnou] ("E-efnouti"). Again, most of the Cantors record it as "E - eeeee -efnouti" (as if the Coptic letter y ("eeta," pronounced like "ee" in "deep") were there. It isn't. It should be "E-Efnouti" (The second "E" pronounced like the first).

    So then you have to ask the question - do you correct hymns from grammatical/pronounciated mistakes like these, with the knowledge that you have which our ancestors didn't? Or do you just leave them the way they are and take it as unchangeable heritage?



    It depends on the situation. Such as the psalm response it should most definitely be corrected, since this not a matter of pronunciation but of grammer. In the case of Pekethronos, since it is a coptic psalm it retains coptic pronunciation. In fact all of our hymns whether of greek origin or not are pronounced in coptic manner. Since the jinkim is there, it should be pronounced pekethronos, not pek-thronos. Recent cantors have corrected this mistake of Ee efnouty. Ibrahim Ayads recording says E-efnouty. Pronunciation will constantly be debated, however grammar should be corrected. Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.


    Thanks John, yeah I did hear of Cantor Ibrahim apparently correcting this mistake.

    I'm not entirely sure whether I personally will change the way in which I chant the hymn.

    And where did the jinkim come from in the first place John? It's a Greek word originally; when and why was this modified? The answers are lost to antiquity - the jinkim may well have been added because Cantors began chanting it in this way. The only thing we know for sure, was that it originally a Greek word - and thus ought to be pronounced using the rules of Greek pronunciation.

    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10941.msg132620#msg132620 date=1299724246]
    But how do you (or anyone) go up to a congregation and say "Oh hi guys. Yeah we have been saying this hymn wrong for the past uh... 20 years so here is the correct way to say it." I am sure Pekethronos (<3) and the Psalm 150 response aren't the only two hymns that have mistakes. People memorize the hymns one way and block out another way for various reasons...including so others do not mess you up (I am guessing that is how most mistakes occur in our church...someone not knowing a hymn completely and messing up those who do).We see memorization with the words and even the tunes! I have been to many churches in a 30 mile radius of my church and not 2 churches say either "As it was" or "Amen Amen Amen Your death" (Words and tune!) the same way. I tried explaining to a few fellow deacons tonight during Liturgy how there is an "A" before the Psalm 150 response and an Older Deacon comes up to me and says I am wrong and so is anyone else who says that...

    Sorry...i get angry when people are stubborn  :-\. I hope someone understands anything i just said lol


    I think the work on unification of congregational replies deserves it's own thread, so I'll post my feelings on it there! Thanks for bringing this up, it certainly makes for an edifying and interesting discussion  :)
  • I am not sure that it is a rule that loan words in any language should be pronounced as in the original language.

    In English none of the Greek loan words are pronounced as the Greek, except by accident when that happens.

    Kyrie, Alleluia, Theotokos

    And we say Paris not Paree etc etc.

    So I am not sure that Greek words used in Coptic must be pronounced as in Greek.

    Father Peter
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10941.msg132633#msg132633 date=1299746631]
    I am not sure that it is a rule that loan words in any language should be pronounced as in the original language.

    In English none of the Greek loan words are pronounced as the Greek, except by accident when that happens.

    Kyrie, Alleluia, Theotokos

    And we say Paris not Paree etc etc.

    So I am not sure that Greek words used in Coptic must be pronounced as in Greek.

    Father Peter


    You're right Fr. Peter, I totally agree.

    Sorry for my mistake guys  :-[
  • I guess one must keep in mind that a local traditional base will define the pronunciation pattern.
    There is the counterpoint relative to other French words that are initiated in English which would not
    be acceptable in a strict English pronounciation relative to spelling, eg, rendezvous.
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132545#msg132545 date=1299637874]
    Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.


    I'm interested in the grammatical errors.. can you explain it to me once?
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134]
    Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.


    Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.

    Pray for me
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