[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10941.msg132661#msg132661 date=1299763750] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134] Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.
Pray for me
Ahh yes fair enough. [quote author=marian6 link=topic=10941.msg132659#msg132659 date=1299762739] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132545#msg132545 date=1299637874] Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.
I'm interested in the grammatical errors.. can you explain it to me once?
This hymn as mentioned has no current translation and when people have attempted they found that it made absolutely no sense. That is why many do not allow this hymn to be chanted. I do have a pdf where a scholar has made an attempt at its translation and correction. If anyone would like it pm you emails and i would be happy to send it.
This hymn as mentioned has no current translation and when people have attempted they found that it made absolutely no sense. That is why many do not allow this hymn to be chanted. I do have a pdf where a scholar has made an attempt at its translation and correction. If anyone would like it pm you emails and i would be happy to send it.
hehe....i like the comment i put there. also the southern diocese deacon's book add a similar comment when they choose to put it in the book.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132670#msg132670 date=1299774951] [quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10941.msg132661#msg132661 date=1299763750] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134] Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.
Pray for me
Ahh yes fair enough. [quote author=marian6 link=topic=10941.msg132659#msg132659 date=1299762739] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132545#msg132545 date=1299637874] Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.
I'm interested in the grammatical errors.. can you explain it to me once?
This hymn as mentioned has no current translation and when people have attempted they found that it made absolutely no sense. That is why many do not allow this hymn to be chanted. I do have a pdf where a scholar has made an attempt at its translation and correction. If anyone would like it pm you emails and i would be happy to send it.
so why doesn't the church just correct the mistakes?
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10941.msg132682#msg132682 date=1299789602] so why doesn't the church just correct the mistakes?
the hymn was handed down that way. it's really hard to "correct the wrongs" without destroying the hymn in some way. also you can't compare this hymn with the case of our topic here: psalm 150 response. in our case we are just talking about a letter that needs to be added. atleast what we have now are really words but they do not construct a proper sentence. that is not the case in Yestermaji where you can have words that can't be identified. HCOC recorded some tamgeed hymns that were corrected but i didn't like it.....but that might just be me not liking the whole idea of recordings hymns in "greco-bohairic coptic" which they have adapted.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10941.msg132661#msg132661 date=1299763750] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134] Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.
Pray for me
Let me clarify the grammar. ernycteuin uses a Coptic grammatical mechanism to convert a noun into a verb. In this case the Greek noun nycteuin is converted into a verb with the coptic converter ermeaning to do. So in Coptic, ernyctevin is a verb to fast.
In the Psalm 150 the response Iycoc Pi,rictoc ernycteuin `e`hryi `ejwn `n`hme `n`ehoou nem `hme `nejwrh (without the initial "A") utilizes a corrupted form of the vocative, which literally translates "Jesus Christ fast for us forty days and forty nights". We are commanding Jesus to fast. The standard Bohairic vocative form is arinecteuin. However, neither ernycteuin or arinycteuin as the vocative tense is found anywhere in any liturgical text or Coptic story. As far as I know the vocative is rarely used.
If you add the Coptic "A" it becomes the perfect past tense and it translates "Jesus Christ fasted for us forty days and forty nights". You can't remove the initial "A" without changing the meaning.
The problem is not grammatical correctness of the text. The problem is stubborness. Since people learn hymns by memorization, and if they learned wrong grammar, they will be doubly disadvantaged to overcome what was learned semi-subconsciously. They never cognitively learned grammar before memorization. Had they learned grammar before memorization, they would not disagree when someone educates them and challenges them about correct grammar. But we are faced with the opposite situtation. Since people learn by memorization first, people tend to disagree with someone who challenges the only thing they know. And even if they agree with the challenges, they tend to have difficulty consciously correcting what they memorized.
Hopefully, people recognize the need to learn Coptic as a language, not simply as the ancient, archaic media or vehicle used in the Church. George
[quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10941.msg132832#msg132832 date=1300044884] Just a little side note, in Albair's book, it says A Isos ... GB, PFM, Cyril
Comments
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134]
Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.
Pray for me
Ahh yes fair enough.
[quote author=marian6 link=topic=10941.msg132659#msg132659 date=1299762739]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132545#msg132545 date=1299637874]
Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.
I'm interested in the grammatical errors.. can you explain it to me once?
This is the hymn I'm speaking about : http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/230
This hymn as mentioned has no current translation and when people have attempted they found that it made absolutely no sense. That is why many do not allow this hymn to be chanted. I do have a pdf where a scholar has made an attempt at its translation and correction. If anyone would like it pm you emails and i would be happy to send it.
This is the hymn I'm speaking about : http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/230
This hymn as mentioned has no current translation and when people have attempted they found that it made absolutely no sense. That is why many do not allow this hymn to be chanted. I do have a pdf where a scholar has made an attempt at its translation and correction. If anyone would like it pm you emails and i would be happy to send it.
hehe....i like the comment i put there. also the southern diocese deacon's book add a similar comment when they choose to put it in the book.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=10941.msg132661#msg132661 date=1299763750]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134]
Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.
Pray for me
Ahh yes fair enough.
[quote author=marian6 link=topic=10941.msg132659#msg132659 date=1299762739]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132545#msg132545 date=1299637874]
Which is why many do not agree with chanting Istermagi since it makes no sense grammatically or any sense period. I do have a pdf with an attempt at explaining it and adjusting it and i think that is a great attempt and should be corrected.
I'm interested in the grammatical errors.. can you explain it to me once?
This is the hymn I'm speaking about : http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/230
This hymn as mentioned has no current translation and when people have attempted they found that it made absolutely no sense. That is why many do not allow this hymn to be chanted. I do have a pdf where a scholar has made an attempt at its translation and correction. If anyone would like it pm you emails and i would be happy to send it.
so why doesn't the church just correct the mistakes?
so why doesn't the church just correct the mistakes?
the hymn was handed down that way. it's really hard to "correct the wrongs" without destroying the hymn in some way. also you can't compare this hymn with the case of our topic here: psalm 150 response. in our case we are just talking about a letter that needs to be added. atleast what we have now are really words but they do not construct a proper sentence. that is not the case in Yestermaji where you can have words that can't be identified.
HCOC recorded some tamgeed hymns that were corrected but i didn't like it.....but that might just be me not liking the whole idea of recordings hymns in "greco-bohairic coptic" which they have adapted.
Oujai
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10941.msg132423#msg132423 date=1299615134]
Without it, you are in essence saying, Jesus Christ fasts for us, not fasted.
Just a small semantic point - I don't think you can use the infinitive of a verb without any marker at all, so 'Isos PiXristos ernestewin ehrei egon' is not even a complete sentence, its like saying 'Jesus Christ 'to fast' for us'.
Pray for me
Let me clarify the grammar.
ernycteuin uses a Coptic grammatical mechanism to convert a noun into a verb. In this case the Greek noun nycteuin is converted into a verb with the coptic converter ermeaning to do. So in Coptic, ernyctevin is a verb to fast.
In the Psalm 150 the response Iycoc Pi,rictoc ernycteuin `e`hryi `ejwn `n`hme `n`ehoou nem `hme `nejwrh (without the initial "A") utilizes a corrupted form of the vocative, which literally translates "Jesus Christ fast for us forty days and forty nights". We are commanding Jesus to fast. The standard Bohairic vocative form is arinecteuin. However, neither ernycteuin or arinycteuin as the vocative tense is found anywhere in any liturgical text or Coptic story. As far as I know the vocative is rarely used.
If you add the Coptic "A" it becomes the perfect past tense and it translates "Jesus Christ fasted for us forty days and forty nights". You can't remove the initial "A" without changing the meaning.
The problem is not grammatical correctness of the text. The problem is stubborness. Since people learn hymns by memorization, and if they learned wrong grammar, they will be doubly disadvantaged to overcome what was learned semi-subconsciously. They never cognitively learned grammar before memorization. Had they learned grammar before memorization, they would not disagree when someone educates them and challenges them about correct grammar. But we are faced with the opposite situtation. Since people learn by memorization first, people tend to disagree with someone who challenges the only thing they know. And even if they agree with the challenges, they tend to have difficulty consciously correcting what they memorized.
Hopefully, people recognize the need to learn Coptic as a language, not simply as the ancient, archaic media or vehicle used in the Church.
George
GB, PFM,
Cyril
Just a little side note, in Albair's book, it says A Isos ...
GB, PFM,
Cyril
well it's a recently published book.