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Doxology question
Is there are proper Doxology for Abba Paul the first hermit?
Comments
There is another one for him and Saint Antony but i don't have that one right now.
What tunes do you use also??
We use our own tunes, and are presently engaged in developing some improvements to our music for certain areas of worship.
We pray the Raising of Incense so we sing Doxologies.
We use our own tunes, and are presently engaged in developing some improvements to our music for certain areas of worship.
Do you have saints that are not in common with ours?
Do you have a sample of your doxology?
I don't tend to post audio or video of worship. I am afraid that it is not always helpful.
All the saints are common. There is only one Church after all.
I don't tend to post audio or video of worship. I am afraid that it is not always helpful.
Thanks Fr. Peter,
I just wanted to know if you had any additional saints that were Anglo-Saxon that we did not have, or that we have but do not know about?
If you are interested in doxologies, may I just draw your attention to the LA Deacons Doxology for the Resurrection that is found on Tasbeha.org. I think this is the best Coptic doxology ever sung.
Thank you.
In regard to commemorations, of course we also venerate the Saints of the British Isles, but these are also saints of all Orthodox in all places, even if they are not known, because there is only one Church.
If you are interested in doxologies, may I just draw your attention to the LA Deacons Doxology for the Resurrection that is found on Tasbeha.org. I think this is the best Coptic doxology ever sung.
wow!!!
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151264#msg151264 date=1328012496]
If you are interested in doxologies, may I just draw your attention to the LA Deacons Doxology for the Resurrection that is found on Tasbeha.org. I think this is the best Coptic doxology ever sung.
wow!!!
What's wrong with that Mina?
It was just my personal opinion. I'm sure all doxologies are lovely , but this particular one is very well done indeed.
What's wrong with that Mina?
It was just my personal opinion. I'm sure all doxologies are lovely , but this particular one is very well done indeed.
the fact that you are limiting your opinion on this specific recording of these specific deacon out of many in that specific diocese for this specific doxology that maybe said much better by other original cantors is kind of annoying.........it just gives the hint that you don't know much about liturgical texts in our Church other than what you hear from others and not based on studies and research. I am not saying i can do better......but i would stop talking about things i don't know.
i'd like to say in advance, i am not going to continue argueing with Zoxsasi in this thread........it's just i havn't annoyed him for a while, so what i just did gives me a feeling that i am still who i am and he is still who he is--no changes in our lives. :)
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=12849.msg151297#msg151297 date=1328041694]
What's wrong with that Mina?
It was just my personal opinion. I'm sure all doxologies are lovely , but this particular one is very well done indeed.
the fact that you are limiting your opinion on this specific recording of these specific deacon out of many in that specific diocese for this specific doxology that maybe said much better by other original cantors is kind of annoying.........it just gives the hint that you don't know much about liturgical texts in our Church other than what you hear from others and not based on studies and research. I am not saying i can do better......but i would stop talking about things i don't know.
i'd like to say in advance, i am not going to continue argueing with Zoxsasi in this thread........it's just i havn't annoyed him for a while, so what i just did gives me a feeling that i am still who i am and he is still who he is--no changes in our lives. :)
As I said, this was my opinion. Its all opinion. My favorite Psalm is Pslam 50, and Psalm 1. I love both of them, but it doesn't mean that one should not explore the other Psalms.
The reason why I'm suggesting this particular doxology for Fr. Peter is because he has an "occidental" ear. Not all our melodies will appeal to him. What makes this particular version of the doxology appealing to western ears is that it has more chanting than broken hazaats, or even hazaats. Their voices are also in synch with one another which may also appeal to western ears.
This is just opinion. Its not something official. If it bothers you, please suggest something else. Otherwise, as the Bible says "Blessed are the peacemakers" - have a blessing and leave me in peace.
I don't tend to post audio or video of worship. I am afraid that it is not always helpful.
Doesn't that mean that it is a bad idea to have hymns posted on this site? What about for learning purposes?
Does this extend to listening to hymns on one's iPod?
NOte to others: I'm only seeking an explanation, not challenging anything
I would rather celebrate the liturgy with an elderly priest who could hardly chant but who was transfigured by a life of holiness and devotion, than with someone who had not yet learned how to live the Christian life but had a good voice. Of course that is absolutely not to criticise the beauty of chant performed with ability.
But I do hear people saying, 'I like this...', 'No, I think this is better...', 'Oh, you have to hear this..', and it seems to me that it can lead away from a spiritual response to hymns and prayers. It does not seem to me that a recording of others at worship should be subject to such responses. It would however be valid in the context of education, since some recordings might be better suited to teaching than others. But I do have some unease when I hear people say, 'Oh you must hear Abouna So-and-So...'. I want to ask, 'Why?'. Are the words different? Is it more spiritual listening to someone else worshipping who has a good voice, than one who does not? How is it possible to tell which liturgy was more pleasing to God? Indeed what are the dangers of developing too great a reliance on listening to others worshipping?
This is not meant to be curmudgeonly. But for myself, I don't want to compete in the league tables of liturgical performance. If you want to see how I worship then come and worship with me. If you can't then I wish a blessing on your wholehearted participation in the liturgy where God has placed you.
I don't think that there is a problem listening to hymns, or having instructional recordings, but I do have problems with the sort of celebrity culture that sometimes manifests itself, and also the idea that one recording is better than another, as if we were comparing orchestras and conductors performing a classical piece of music.
I would rather celebrate the liturgy with an elderly priest who could hardly chant but who was transfigured by a life of holiness and devotion, than with someone who had not yet learned how to live the Christian life but had a good voice. Of course that is absolutely not to criticise the beauty of chant performed with ability.
But I do hear people saying, 'I like this...', 'No, I think this is better...', 'Oh, you have to hear this..', and it seems to me that it can lead away from a spiritual response to hymns and prayers. It does not seem to me that a recording of others at worship should be subject to such responses. It would however be valid in the context of education, since some recordings might be better suited to teaching than others. But I do have some unease when I hear people say, 'Oh you must hear Abouna So-and-So...'. I want to ask, 'Why?'. Are the words different? Is it more spiritual listening to someone else worshipping who has a good voice, than one who does not? How is it possible to tell which liturgy was more pleasing to God? Indeed what are the dangers of developing too great a reliance on listening to others worshipping?
This is not meant to be curmudgeonly. But for myself, I don't want to compete in the league tables of liturgical performance. If you want to see how I worship then come and worship with me. If you can't then I wish a blessing on your wholehearted participation in the liturgy where God has placed you.
I totally understand where you are coming from.
As I said, I think all doxologies are nice, yet the one I had in mind has LESS hazaats which may be kinder to an occidental ear than hearing hazaats.
I played some doxologies to a few catholic friends, and the ones they liked the most were with less hazaats.
Its no big deal.
I have a follow up question.
As a chanter who has learned some of the longest hymns in our church, I am often challenged when I request to sing these hymns because, like Zoxsasi said, they are foreign to the occidental ear (and nowadays to the Coptic ear too). I often question why I should spend energy and time learning such complex hymns, only to be denied the opportunity to pray them. But you answered this in your post: It's all about spirituality.
In my attempts to sing these hymns, I have often been told that as a deacon/chanter I am a "facilitator" for the congregation to experience a spiritual response. If the congregation has difficulty with the language or has no interest in the hymn, I am no longer a facilitator but rather a cause of offense. I try to take all criticism for my own spiritual benefit but I believe that such a concept is foreign to both the office of the chanter or any clerical office. It seems to me that such a concept shifts the responsibility for spirituality from the congregation to the deacons, chanters, priests instead of the individual. Can you please explain how a chanter should see the spiritual responsibilities of his rank and what has or hasn't been delegated or appointed to the deacon/chanter? If it is the responsibility of the deacon to become a spiritual facilitator, should it be at the expense of hymnology and sacred musical tradition?
I might well think that I am a good speaker, much better than X or Y, but I must truly believe that there is no reason why I should be asked to preach by my bishop rather than X or Y. As soon as I think that I should be asked to preach then I am not making an offering to God, but am serving myself, even though I may be able to convince myself that there are very spiritual reasons why I should be chosen to preach.
If I am at a liturgy that my bishop is celebrating then I should be prepared to serve in whatever way he chooses, but I am not in a position to demand that he allow me to serve. And again, if I think that I must serve, even for the spiritual good of the congregation, then I am not fit to serve because I am assuming a prideful attitude, even if I cloak it in my own mind with an idea that I am seeking to only be a servant.
The fields may be white for the harvest (to turn to another analogy), but the Vineyard is the Lord's and not ours. If he chooses us to labour in this way or that way then it is according to His will and not ours. If we serve according to our own will then we are considering ourselves as the Lord of the Vineyard.
What should I do? Surely I should always seek to be that holy and committed Christian that the Lord can use as He wills and whenever He wills. But I should serve in obedience and not in selfwill. The Lord does not need us to think that we are the Saviours of the World or the Church. We are not. If my bishop, or some brother priest, invites me to speak or serve, then I should be prepared to do so. But if I am not asked to serve in the way I expect then I am no less responsible to be prepared - because we do not know when the Master will call us. But we certainly cannot insist on serving as we choose just because we can or think that we should.
In the context of hymns and liturgy, we know that it is much more complex and has to do with the spirituality of the congregation, with the mix of languages which are understood, with all sorts of other issues as well. But, the service of all should be under obedience to the one who has care of the congregation, and so this is especially and properly the diocesan bishop and the priest(s) with pastoral care. I know that this is also complicated by pride, disobedience, party feeling, lack of spirituality etc etc in the a congregation and among chanters.
BUT.... ideally the bishop and priest(s) would determine what was appropriate for the congregation at present. It may be that it might be best that there was a small body of hymns sung with encouragement of all to participate in singing them. It might be that on predetermined occasions other longer hymns were sung. It might be that the chanters were called upon to exercise humility in not singing when they could, but being well prepared and trained to sing when they were asked. I don't say this as any particular instruction. But perhaps it is how the necessary humility which should belong to all who wish to serve should be manifest in those who know the hymns. I do not think that it is the role of the chanter to force the issue with the congregation. It is the role of the priest to have the pastoral care of the congregation. A priest should be able to turn to a chanter and say, 'Sing', and turn to a chanter and say, 'Be silent', with the same ready obedience.
In my own congregation I am blessed to be able to say, I would like us to do this and this. And it happens. There can be a conversation about it. The priest can have his mind changed. But at the altar the priest should never have to worry that there are arguments and prideful competitions going on among any who serve, or that his prayerful instruction about what should happen has been disregarded.
Does any of this respond to any of your own post?
I don't know if my previous post articulated my concerns properly. I wish to make it clear that I am not advocating learning or singing hymns for selfwill or pride. We are all fighting pride in our lives. Any servant who has pride is most assuredly not exercising humility and his service will condemn him.
But let's assume pride has not entered the chanter's heart. Instead it is the opposite that is occurring. In long hymns, the chanter's spirit is released into the spiritual world as HH Pope Shenouda describes in his book "Release of the Spirit." It is in spiritual exercises, through physical discipline, than one learns to speak in hymns (especially hymns without only a few words or no words). Like all discipline, there must be an individual desire to "run the race for the prize." The chanter's time and effort is the race and the prize is a spiritual connection with God. When one experiences this spiritual connection, one cannot help but pass it on so others can experience the same joy when the spirit is released.
But no one seems to understand it. No one even believes it is possible. Rather they look to decrease the usage of hymns. And in humility, the chanter concedes.
I am not claiming the chanter or even sacred musical tradition is more important than the individual's salvation. But at some point the demand and desire for certain hymns disappears in response to the congregation's lack of understanding or preoccupation with other matters.
I will try to illustrate with an example. Suppose every Sunday I go to my brother's house and spend all evening with his family. And this tradition has been kept for years. Eventually, my children grow older and are more concerned with spending time with their friends and my wife is more concerned with helping my sister-in-law with dinner. I however really enjoy my brother's company. The children and wife start to find reasons to excuse themselves from our Sunday family meetings. In humility, I concede to my wife and children's desires. Eventually, the desire to spend time with my brother is completely forgotten and the spiritual connection is abandoned. Sometimes we need to stop looking for excuses so we don't end up like Martha "worried and upset about many things", "distracted by all the preparation .... while few things are needed, indeed only one." (Luke10:43 NIV) That one thing is making time for the Savior.
In the wedding banquet, there were many people who gave many excuses on why they didn't want to come to the banquet. These people even became violent with the King's servants. All that was required was to come with proper wedding garments. That wedding garment is the time and desire to spend with the Savior. Such a wedding garment comes with discipline, not complaints.
This might be an erroneous judgment but I'll conclude with it: Lack of spirituality is the primary reasons why bishops and priests are compelled to decrease hymn usage. The solution to lack of spirituality is not to decrease spiritual exercises like hymns, but to increase them. It is the individual's responsibility, under the guidance of the priest, to examine his own spirituality and engage in spiritual exercises like hymns. By doing this, there would be no need to claim that the deacon/chanter is a facilitator for the individual because once the individual has put on that wedding garment, he will automatically experience the release of the spirit without any facilitation.
Is such a conclusion accurate? Or am I an unrealistic idealist?
I also believe that, in some cases, there are other reasons why a request to a lead chanter to chant a hymn may be denied. Among those reasons is pride. Sometimes the leader may not know the hymn that is being requested and may be resistant to allowing someone else to chant it. I am not saying that is the case in your church Remnkemi (or mine for that matter) but it is evident in some churches I have been to.
Finally, our hymns are prayers and intensely spiritual. I don't believe it is fair for a lead deacon to assume automatically that nobody in the congregation is interested in listening to a longer hymn, or perhaps even chanting along.
Fr. Peter, there is a lot of wisdom in your reply and I benefitted greatly from reading it. If I may, I wish to opine from a different angle. Our hymns are so rich and complex that most churches in Egypt have professional cantors that were trained, in many cases for upwards of six years. They are entrusted with chanting the hymns properly and making sure that the proper rites are followed. In most cases, those cantors have much more knowledge in the area of hymnology and rites than the priests themselves. Therefore, I am of the opinion that priests should allow the cantor (or well trained deacons) to take the lead for the congregation hymns with limited interjection during services. That is typically the case. It is rare to observe, His Holiness for instance, directing Muallim Ibrahim Ayad and the Chorus of the Clerical College. I believe the only time I saw it was in a 1985 Feast Liturgy when H.H. politely motioned to the chorus to slow down during the concluding hymn, Amen Alleluia, as he was going to need some time to make it around the cathedral.
Consider for example, if a priest were to override the deacons who are attempting to chant the appropriate aspasmos watos for the Feast of the Resurrection with the year-round aspasmos watos (either because he was unaware that there is a different aspasmos or because he wants the congregation to join). What happens in this case is that a prayer specific for the Feast of the Resurrection is foregone. If the majority of the Liturgy is prayed in the local language and 80% of the hymns are familiar to the congregation, what is the harm in using the remaining 20% of the time for special occasional hymns that are spiritually deep and moving. Maybe, just maybe, we might be able to to attract more people to Coptic Hymnology and allow them the opportunity to develop an interest in Coptic Hymns and use those hymns for prayer and for their spiritual benefit.
It may well be that you enjoy long hymns and find them spiritually beneficial, but it is not necessarily a lack of spirituality which causes others to find themselves unable to enjoy or benefit such hymns, especially if they are in a language that is not understood and with a melody that is not appreciated.
If we take fasting for instance. As a priest I know that there are very great benefits from participating in the practice of fasting with commitment and prayer. If you come to me and say that you don't see the point, and don't get any benefit from fasting I would be at fault if I said that the answer was for you to undertake an absolute fast of 72 hours, and then to eat only a vegan diet late in the afternoon. This would crush most people, or lead to pride, and it seems to me that the Fathers are clear that this should not be the approach to adopt.
We can see it in ordinary life as well. If I go to a fitness centre and say I want to get fit, and then start to struggle with the fitness regime which has been assigned to me it would be madness on the part of my instructor to suggest that the answer to my problems is to adopt the same fitness regime as an Olympic athlete. What he would do is reduce the regime to a level where I was slightly stretched but not flagging, and was able to see some improvement in my fitness which would make it easier for me to accept an increase in the regime.
We should not apply our own spiritual experiences to others. It is easy to become an evangelist for some spiritual practice in which we have found benefit, but this is not how we have grown, nor how it is best for most people to grow. Slow and steady growth is always best, starting with a level which just stretches us, and allows us to create positive habitual behaviour.
Let me say, and this is not addressed to you particularly, but the desire to pass on what we have experienced ourselves is pride. It suggests to us that we have attained some level that others have not, and it suggests to us that we are just the person to teach everyone else. This is pride. The role of the chanter is to lead the congregation in its own worship, indeed the chanter should not be concentrating on his own spiritual experience, just as the priest is always concentrating on offering the prayers of the Church and for the Church and is not having a private spiritual experience. Of course I don't mean that all in the Church should not be in a spiritual state, but it is not a time for private experience if we are serving in various capacities. If the congregation are not entering into the spriitual realm then the chanter, and other servants and the priest should ask themselves what they are doing wrong, and if there is some sin in their heart, rather than blame the congregation.
What if the congregation do not want to hear you chant a long hymn, perhaps in a language they do not understand? Is the congregation to blame? What if they are lacking in spirituality, this is surely your fault if you wish to serve them, and the fault of other servants, and the priest (I say this as a priest and as if this was a problem in my own congregation). The answer is not to attempt to forcefeed high quality spirituality, but for each chanter and servant to spend time each day in earnest prayer for their brethen, asking that God would grant health to the congregation as He wills.
A chanter should be able to pray, 'Lord, I wish nothing more than to serve you, and your people. Even if I am never called to sing another hymn in the Church I desire nothing else than to serve these people you love'.
If we can't let go of what we enjoy then we are not servants at all, and I say this to myself. If we think that others are at fault for not enjoying what we are doing then we are not servants, and I say this to myself. I have no greater satisfaction in my life than that which I find when I am standing at the altar. For the first time in my life I feel that I am exactly where I should be in God's will. But if my bishop said that he did not wish me to serve at the altar any more then I would abandon all thought of such service immediately. Service is not for ourselves.
I don't think that it is possible for us to easily know what is going on in people's lives. I can imagine that a great many very devout people who are not from an Egyptian background would find very long hymns in Coptic or Arabic very trying. And many young people in the Coptic Churches are now starting to be more Western than Middle Eastern. Many young people are less able to handle very long services because of the culture they are being brought up in. The answer, as far as I can see, is to encourage them slowly and gently to embrace and enjoy the Orthodox spiritual tradition.
As I said, I think that for us all who serve, it is a matter of obedience. What does our priest require of us? This is all we should be concerned for. And if we have worries about our brethren then the answer is prayer, and prayer, and prayer with fasting. We can never organise our brothers and sisters to be more spiritual - or more spiritual as we think best - and this is not generally our job in any case.
A choir will naturally want to participate as much as possible, and to demonstrate their knowledge as far as possible. For a variety of reasons this is not always appropriate or helpful to the choir or the congregation. Which is why their service should also be subject to the spiritual fatherhood of the priest.
It may well be that you enjoy long hymns and find them spiritually beneficial, but it is not necessarily a lack of spirituality which causes others to find themselves unable to enjoy or benefit such hymns, especially if they are in a language that is not understood and with a melody that is not appreciated.
Let us adjust for language. Let us take language out of the equation. Let us say the long hymn is one word, Alleluia. This is, after all, often the case with some long hymns. The only remaining issue is the melody. What we are discussing is why is the melody not appreciated. I assert that many times the melody is not appreciated simply because people don't understand music is a language in itself. A one word hymn for 15 minutes is the same as a 15 minute hymn on a long psalm passage. Yet, people are more inclined to learn a 15 minute secular song and less inclined to learn a 15 minute psalm and even less inclined to learn a 15 minute tune. I cannot assert with absolute certainty that a lack of spirituality is the only cause that explains this observation. Rather I can correlate this observation with a limited degree of certainty that the decrease of demand/desire/usage of long hymns is related to individual spirituality. Another observation with a limited degree of certainty is that the decrease of demand/desire/usage of long hymns is also related to the chanter's/deacon's/priest's/servant's spirituality. Another observation is that the decrease long hymns is related to outside social and peer pressure. I think we can agree that sacred music tradition usage is multifactorial. Maybe we are saying the same thing but going to extremes. In this same example, if I came to you saying I don't get any benefit from fasting, you would neither respond by requiring a 72 hour fast nor would you absolve me from fasting and let me eat meat. As you mentioned in your post, you would tell me to try to fast 1 hour at first and work my way up to the normal practice. It seems that we take a different approach to different spiritual exercises. With regards to hymns, If someone doesn't get any benefit from a hymn and complains to the priests, then the trend is to simply remove any expectation of learning or singing hymns, rather than slowly and gradually saying one extra hymn. I am not trying to pass the blame to the priests or anyone for that matter. I am just confused why we take a substantially different approach to complaints about hymns in comparison to other spiritual exercises. (This is based on the information that no one is operating out of pride or language obstacles)
As Remenkimi rightly said, there are people who know many worldly songs not less than 30 minutes by heart, and in the Western communities, there are youth who know hundreds if not thousands of songs, and we're still arguing exclusion of long hymns? For whose and what benefit?
Humility, yes, not only from the chanter's position...
Oujai
It could also be that a long hymn, with many words, sung in a language that is not understood, could also quite naturally be problematic.
I obviously know many hundreds and thousands of Western hymns and songs, many of which are long, but the difference surely is that the words are all clearly understood.
Should people find it difficult to concentrate on a long hymn with only one word, or a long hymn with words that cannot be understood? I cannot say that I do not have some sympathy with them. Now if they were complaining about hymns which were in English (or whatever the local language was) and which they should all be able to understand then it would be different. The benefit of not using such long hymns, at least on a routine basis, is that ordinary people, struggling with their own spiritual growth, will not be caused to stumble. It is possible to praise God in a short hymn in which all participate as much as in a long hymn that only one or two know.
I must say that I still consider it pride for any of us to assume we know the hearts of the congregation, and are more spiritual, and know just the right things everyone else should be doing. When we speak about the need for others to be humble then we are exhibiting pride. Do you not think that the priests and bishop have constant thought for the spiritual wellbeing of their congregations?
I hope "you" in the your question is plural, and not addressed only to Remenkimi.. I think deacons and servants, at least from what I've been taught, have a responsibility towards brethren's spiritual growth and salvation, and I'm speaking of my experience that showed me the meaning of the "logic sacrifice".. hope that's the right expression. I hope you can clearly see how much damage concessions caused in the Coptic church. To concede for the so-called benefit of others is to ignore their and my salvation. Language is not an issue, it's just an excuse. In Luxor, a wholly touristic city in south Egypt, it's common to find illiterate people who know two or three languages, maybe not very fluently, because of their trade. But do Christians want to flick a finger to learn Coptic? Or even not learn it, but just follow along? I guess I should be praying for God to give me humility.. this one of the things this thread teaches me now.. but yet for GOd to use me and use my service, however trivial it is, for the edification of all people, I the first. By the way, I'm not giving myself cart blanche to judge others..
Oujai
People should not have to learn another language to worship God. You have chosen to live in England, and the second and third generations should be English. This does not mean that some will not want to learn Coptic. You know that I am learning Sahidic Coptic myself and have organised the lessons myself because I am committed to it, but I do not believe it is necessary to understand Coptic to be Orthodox.
We all have a responsibility to support one anothers spiritual growth, but it a likely cause of judgementalism and pride if we speak of concessions to others. It is not the role of a chanter to speak in such a way. Only those with the care of the congregation, the priests and bishop, are properly gifted to understand the heart and the medicine which is required. This does not mean that you should not be able to share your views with your priest. But he is the pastor of the flock. Not singing long hymns in Coptic is not a concession - I hope that you see that. It is a judgement exercised by the priest for the salvation of his flock. Singing long hymns in Coptic does not have a direct correlation with a person's spiritual state, especially in the West where English, or Spanish, or Dutch, or French is now the natural language.
It is not a requirement of being an Orthodox Christian to know Coptic, even though I am learning Coptic.
Oujai qen `P[C
Has anyone noticed that whenever I comment on a simple thread , it turns into a major discussion?
Its always been that way I think ;D
Has anyone noticed that whenever I comment on a simple thread , it turns into a major discussion?
At least this one I found very fruitful and civil indeed.