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Praying in Coptic -- praying without understanding
If a group prays in Coptic and without understanding, can this be called prayer? Isn't it more a chanting of various sounds and syllables? What is the point of praying in language you don't understand? Can this please God?
Praying more than 20 % in Coptic (if you don't understand it), is pointless. Yet, time and again I'll go to various churches and services with a lot of Coptic.
People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!
People wonder why Protestant music is popular among COCs...it's because the hymns have become just cool songs in Coptic with awesome hazzat!!
Why aren't we praying predominantly in English?! I want to understand.
It seems that people who like to pray in Coptic (and don't understand the language) want to do so because it "sounds better"...
Praying more than 20 % in Coptic (if you don't understand it), is pointless. Yet, time and again I'll go to various churches and services with a lot of Coptic.
People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!
People wonder why Protestant music is popular among COCs...it's because the hymns have become just cool songs in Coptic with awesome hazzat!!
Why aren't we praying predominantly in English?! I want to understand.
It seems that people who like to pray in Coptic (and don't understand the language) want to do so because it "sounds better"...
Comments
good luck Andrew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,10602.0.html
If a group prays in Coptic and without understanding, can this be called prayer? Isn't it more a chanting of various sounds and syllables? What is the point of praying in language you don't understand? Can this please God?
Praying more than 20 % in Coptic (if you don't understand it), is pointless. Yet, time and again I'll go to various churches and services with a lot of Coptic.
People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!
People wonder why Protestant music is popular among COCs...it's because the hymns have become just cool songs in Coptic with awesome hazzat!!
Why aren't we praying predominantly in English?! I want to understand.
It seems that people who like to pray in Coptic (and don't understand the language) want to do so because it "sounds better"...
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12897.msg151657#msg151657 date=1328953112]
you just opened a huge can of arguments. you should of searched a little in the forum before opening this thread......previous posts ended in disasters.
good luck Andrew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with both sentiments
They don't even understand Coptic and know very little about our history. They just like the way it sounds.
It is getting beyond ridiculous if you ask me. We are praying the Doxologies week after week in Coptic and years later we know nothing about the saints that we praise! We are praying the tasbeha week after week in Coptic and years later we don't know learn about the symbols of St. Mary or the story of the Israelites.
The hymns are meant to deliver the faith to us, to explain how the church interprets the Bible. If we aren't understanding the hymns, what's the point?
The 20% is enough to preserve the language and our heritage. Additionally, since it is not a great amount, people can work on learning these parts.
The majority, however, should be in English.
The hymns are meant to deliver the faith to us, to explain how the church interprets the Bible. If we aren't understanding the hymns, what's the point?
There is something i wanna put out there. if people really want to 'understand' the hymns, they have to study them...they have to go deeper than just saying it in church during the liturgy or tasbeha. saying the doxologies in coptic english or any other language, the deacons will still be rushing in chanting them like someone is running after them. ITS WORST when you are singing in english or even arabic because you end up having more words, which bring more syllables which forces the chanter to jump the text a lot to still put the hazzat on the english text. even if he is saying it in a slower base, that problem will still be there. so you still end up having people not understand.....so you didn't fix much but rather caused more problems: the hymns now sound bad and you are also now losing the coptic which is the original text.
So we have translations for almost everything that maybe said during tasbeha, liturgy...etc. and many others are diligently working on translating the stuff that are not there. the english is there. those who desire to learn and understand, they can easily search and find hymns and study. a deacon doesn't learn a hymn without sitting and learning from someone or teaching himself through tapes spending hours and maybe days on a mid-range hymn.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against saying english in the liturgy......in fact, the deacons who are good at saying hymns in english are those who mastered them in coptic first (and sometimes arabic to). But as i said before, this is an unending argument because you'll have people who just care about 'making easier for the believers to understand' (which i personally don't like so much because that minimizes people's struggle to understand) and the others just care about the language the most (they are true to the lang more than belief sometimes)......and than you have the moderate ones between both opinion but doesn't draw the line between the two opinions because, in their mind (and i hope i am right), it really depends on the specific hymn and the way it may be said, on the text, on translation, on the deacons that are singing, on the people that are in the liturgy and also the occasion a specific hymn is said. ya3ny don't come to good friday and tell me i wanna say pek-ethronos or golgotha in english.
you just opened a huge can of arguments. you should of searched a little in the forum before opening this thread......previous posts ended in disasters.
good luck Andrew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think Mina is referring to this thread: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,6868.0.html
Also, Dzheremi replied beautifully here: I'm willing to pay anyone who can get Dzheremi back on the forum. Plus congratulate him/her on my Shoutbox. Plus make him/her a "thank you" card. Plus pray for him/her.
The challenge has begun. Good luck.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151711#msg151711 date=1328995479]
The hymns are meant to deliver the faith to us, to explain how the church interprets the Bible. If we aren't understanding the hymns, what's the point?
There is something i wanna put out there. if people really want to 'understand' the hymns, they have to study them...they have to go deeper than just saying it in church during the liturgy or tasbeha. saying the doxologies in coptic english or any other language, the deacons will still be rushing in chanting them like someone is running after them. ITS WORST when you are singing in english or even arabic because you end up having more words, which bring more syllables which forces the chanter to jump the text a lot to still put the hazzat on the english text. even if he is saying it in a slower base, that problem will still be there. so you still end up having people not understand.....so you didn't fix much but rather caused more problems: the hymns now sound bad and you are also now losing the coptic which is the original text.
So we have translations for almost everything that maybe said during tasbeha, liturgy...etc. and many others are diligently working on translating the stuff that are not there. the english is there. those who desire to learn and understand, they can easily search and find hymns and study. a deacon doesn't learn a hymn without sitting and learning from someone or teaching himself through tapes spending hours and maybe days on a mid-range hymn.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against saying english in the liturgy......in fact, the deacons who are good at saying hymns in english are those who mastered them in coptic first (and sometimes arabic to). But as i said before, this is an unending argument because you'll have people who just care about 'making easier for the believers to understand' (which i personally don't like so much because that minimizes people's struggle to understand) and the others just care about the language the most (they are true to the lang more than belief sometimes)......and than you have the moderate ones between both opinion but doesn't draw the line between the two opinions because, in their mind (and i hope i am right), it really depends on the specific hymn and the way it may be said, on the text, on translation, on the deacons that are singing, on the people that are in the liturgy and also the occasion a specific hymn is said. ya3ny don't come to good friday and tell me i wanna say pek-ethronos or golgotha in english.
Awesome post Mina!
Oujai
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151711#msg151711 date=1328995479]
The hymns are meant to deliver the faith to us, to explain how the church interprets the Bible. If we aren't understanding the hymns, what's the point?
There is something i wanna put out there. if people really want to 'understand' the hymns, they have to study them...they have to go deeper than just saying it in church during the liturgy or tasbeha. saying the doxologies in coptic english or any other language, the deacons will still be rushing in chanting them like someone is running after them.
Yeah but saying them in a language you understand is a start. Not everyone can sit at home and study the hymns. Why require people to work twice? You're asking people to go and chant the hymns without understanding, then go home and study them! I think you are exaggerating how bad the hymn will sound in English. I have heard many hymns in English that sound great. So the two problems you point out are non-problems: the hymns won't sound bad and I did not say that we should eliminate all Coptic.
You think people should struggle to understand the meaning of the hymns?! Maybe we should chant them in backwards? That would make it really difficult - you would really have to master Coptic to understand it in that case. The moderate position is the one in which English is the dominant language of the services. We should chant with understanding.
How about we keep it 50-50 and switch choirs every week?
That's not a bad idea. But I think getting the full-picture at once is better. Verses connect and the hymn makes sense as a whole. .
With that being said, as a convert to the church My identity is the English language, and I prefer to pray solely in English. However to say that the reason youth don't like the church is because it is in coptic is utterly false, as many youth, Such as my weak self and others, who have never come into contact with the Orthodox church are Choosing to become Coptic Orthodox, DESPITE the fact of the language barriers. It comes down to this. The Coptic language is the Heritage of our Church, whether we are Egyptians in Nationality or race, or perhaps Westerners in my case. It was the Language of the Desert fathers, and is kept alive through the traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church. The same could be said about english. Some of the Newer Migrants cannot speak English, does that mean we are being unfair for praying in English, Not Arabic?
One thing I personally love about the Coptic Lines in the Liturgy is I can go to any church in the world, Whether Egypt, Australia, USA, Canada, Europe, Pakistan, Asia ect. And I can understand those lines, even if I cannot understand anything else. The Coptic Language is something that unites all Coptic Orthodox Men and Women around the world.
Also some Tunes and Lines are IMPOSSIBLE to chant successfully in English due to the Translation having too many words that don't fit the tune. However as I stated I prefer English Liturgies, and I go to a Church that prays Solely in English, with a little bit of Coptic For the Lines of the Priest such as "Irini Pasi".
Also I would sooner listen to a Hymn in a Language I do not understand to pray, then listen to Non-orthodox music, Which has ALOT of heresy in it at times. At Least I can trust the Coptic Hymns, and they lead to salvation, even if I dont understand what is Being said.
From an Aussie who has fallen deeply in Love with the Oriental Orthodox Faith.
Yeah but saying them in a language you understand is a start. Not everyone can sit at home and study the hymns. Why require people to work twice? You're asking people to go and chant the hymns without understanding, then go home and study them!
Why make it so easy to them that whatever you are doing may become nothing more than a routine people do? The words, being said in your native language, will go in one ear and get out of the other......that's it. The easier we make things, the less initiative poeple will have to do ANYTHING....why walk to church (and take the blessings) if i have a car and which will get me there 2 mins faster?!
our world today is teaching us that speed is important. laziness is is what to be since everything is being presented to you on a sliver platter. Now we have to go in specifics BUT IN GENERAL, any kind of song (not only liturgical hymns but secular music to), when translated to another language and sung, it loses much of its beauty. This is a fact. Now I have enough experience in translating to know that this is true. many of the hymns that are translated in our church now (despite the many translation--we are stupid, we can't unify either; that's another problem you have to consider) are either translated literally and then chanted or translated, not perfect because whoever is translating is doing so from the arabic (which is also a faulty translation most of the time) and not great in coptic than TWEAKED to fit a tune. but than you are just getting yourself into other problems because you are straying from the coptic in meaning and in chanting.......so you see, coptic is effected in a way or another. Now you are just straying from the arguments. you have nothing else to say so you are just criticizing since you can't have a good defense. also you ignores what i and others said and decided to go back to your statement without any consideration of what we are trying prove.
EVERYTHING we do to progress to heaven must be in a form of struggle. In another post i have said that being good or doing good will not get you in heaven. we, as Christians, are expected to be good. the extra mile we must take to prove ourselves to be worthy of heaven. struggle in chanting hymns, in learning, in fasting, in praying, in servicing......in EVERYTHING that may lead us to the way of God.
I am a Coptic fanatic. I enjoy praying in Coptic. I honestly find that I understand the prayers more in coptic, not because I'm fluent in Coptic but just because I can pick up certain words, and I feel the words flowing, and my thoughts actually engaged. However, I agree with you, I want the youth to understand. When, for example, I pray tasbeha on my own, I do all Coptic. I honestly feel the prayer. In church, whenever the youth ask me to pray with them all Coptic, I often insist on English saying that I prefer that EVERYONE understand the meaning.
I also agree with the others though, that the church must take a stance and teach Coptic. I insist on teaching the youth Coptic. We are a Coptic Orthodox church. The fact that Coptic is a dead language is a dead excuse in my eyes. We have the means to bring it back to life. Coptic is not a dead language, we are just dead in terms of our activity.
I cannot add any more to the argument, simply because I have my own faith issues to work out, but all I can say is that, Coptic is good, understanding is better. I will leae it up to you guys to debate over where that line should be drawn, and how to maintain it.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Also wanted to make one other point. One does not need to understand necessarily what is being said for it to be a Legitimate prayer. We teach children while they are babies and toddlers How to pray the Our Father, but that doesn't mean they comprehend the Deepness of the prayer until much later. However God does Indeed hear the prayers of Children, and I sometimes wonder if he hears their prayers even more so then mine lol.
Also I would sooner listen to a Hymn in a Language I do not understand to pray, then listen to Non-orthodox music, Which has ALOT of heresy in it at times. At Least I can trust the Coptic Hymns, and they lead to salvation, even if I dont understand what is Being said.
From an Aussie who has fallen deeply in Love with the Oriental Orthodox Faith.
Wonderful post, thank you so much for sharing :)
Thanks dearly.. you hit the nail on the head, as did Remenkimi before, and Mina today... yes it is laziness. Not only on the part of the young, but unfortunately the clergy and the congregation too.. in a COPTIC church.. I don't think Andrew is one, knowing him from his posts before, but it seems he cannot yet face modernization and invention in the church.. not a criticism at all by the way.. I guess that wave is too strong for us all sometimes
Oujai
dzheremi says he misses u too and everyone else here, but he is a bit busy.
i didn't pass on the other messages, sorry, so i don't qualify for the payment!
;)
OUJAI
To this idea that making things harder is better: Why give people copies of the Bible in English? The best translation is in Greek. It makes better sense in Greek and I'm sure the poetic aspects of some parts is lost in translation. Of course, no body is arguing that you have to learn Greek to read the Bible or else your lazy. But for some reason it's OK for hymns.
With this silly argument that things that are better are when they are harder, it seems like we should be praying MORE Coptic, not less. That way people really struggle! Which is the goal, of course, in Church. Make it is as hard for people to comprehend what's going on.
Why the need then to stick to the label "the Coptic Orthodox Church"?
Oujai
Since you took the initiative, I'll add your name to my prayer list.
Congratulations on your accomplishments :)
Now work on physically getting him back!!
I'm not liking that people who don't want to spend time to learn Coptic or don't have the time are all being labeled "lazy."
did i label people "lazy"? no....you made that conclusion when i used the word laziness. also, please do not get into the argument of having time for this and that. now you are simply going to an extreme that I haven't mentioned at all. You are comparing the BIBLE with HYMNS.....that is unacceptable and I am not going to get into it. Without the Bible, we have no faith, no dogma, to basis for our belief and therefore, no hymns within the Church because there wouldn't be a church. for some reason you are concentrating on that and leaving everything else that is valid.....EVEN THOUGH what is said is reality; it is what happens out there.....in the church....out side this forum, site, computer screen. silly or not (i can't control your thinking) it is true. And again, you are just taking my argument to one extreme that is was not intended for.
Maybe i can be like you and say, NO!!! we are in an english speaking country we must pray in english. no coptic. coptic is worthless here since 'we can't understand it'
I think because the church has gone into many countries over the years, that it doesn't mean that we have to change the way we do things or change anything that is important to what identifies itself. I love singing in coptic and besides most books that I have, have the english translation. I feel I am involved in something more holy than would otherwise be the case, matbe because of the history behind it. It has it's connection with the 2000 year old church.
I'm not liking that people who don't want to spend time to learn Coptic or don't have the time are all being labeled "lazy."
To this idea that making things harder is better: Why give people copies of the Bible in English? The best translation is in Greek. It makes better sense in Greek and I'm sure the poetic aspects of some parts is lost in translation. Of course, no body is arguing that you have to learn Greek to read the Bible or else your lazy. But for some reason it's OK for hymns.
With this silly argument that things that are better are when they are harder, it seems like we should be praying MORE Coptic, not less. That way people really struggle! Which is the goal, of course, in Church. Make it is as hard for people to comprehend what's going on.
I have no interest in learning Coptic I will be honest, however The direct translation of the hymns and Divine Liturgy is in the books. There is simply no reason to not understand what is being said, except for sometimes where there is no translation.
Is anybody concerned that priests and bishops wear an ethnic black garb/tunic in the lands of immigration, even in public? If we are so concerned about merging and complying to a non-Egyptian society in these lands of immigration, why do we still have certain ethic aspects of society that are consistently foreign to the lands of immigration? No seems to have an issue with priests and bishops wearing a black tunic in a Western society. No one even suggests that priests should wear black tunics 20% of the time and Western clothing (shirts, pants, suits, etc) 80% of the time. As far as I know, there has never been a catechumen/convert who complained that Coptic priests are not conforming to the social fashion trends.
Why is language such an issue? Is it possible that we are making an issue out of nothing? I have yet to see a convert complain that there is too much Coptic. I have yet to see a Coptic youth leave the Coptic Church solely for the use of Coptic in liturgical services. I have yet to see one Church father, past and present, who claimed language is a requirement for salvation. I have yet to see one Church father, past or present, who claimed that preaching must be done in the vernacular.
The people who complain the most about Coptic are Copts who want Arabic or English instead of Coptic, not for the youth but for personal preference. The people who leave the Church, generally leave because of personal reasons, not foreign language, not colloquial language, not clothing, not culture. The Church has always gone out of her way to minister to the individual's needs. The Church has gone out of the way to accommodate everyone, and yet people still believe the Church must change so and so for so and so reason.
Really, it comes down to this. We all have our own personal preference of how much Coptic, Arabic and English the Church should allow. Just like we all have our own personal preference of how much we and the Church should conform to social norms like fashion. And we justify our belief by attaching a requirement to it (whether Bishop so and so said so and so or the Bible says so and so, etc.) In reality, it is irrelevant what we think, nor should we make these things an issue. It is the job of the local bishop and priests to make these decisions. If praying in Coptic is a stumbling block, try to do something at the individual level. There are Coptic classes in many Churches. Try taking one first. If you don't have inclination to do so, then attend a service where English is used 50-75%+. If you still find Coptic is a stumbling block, talk to the priest and he decides how much Coptic should or should not be done. Similarly, if the priest's ethnic tunic is a stumbling block, try to understand why he wears such a garment in public. If it still stumbles you, ask him why. If it still stumbles you, then he will find an individualized, custom solution for you. And just like I doubt he will stop wearing a black tunic, I doubt we will ever stop using Coptic in liturgical services.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151773#msg151773 date=1329083777]
I'm not liking that people who don't want to spend time to learn Coptic or don't have the time are all being labeled "lazy."
did i label people "lazy"? no....you made that conclusion when i used the word laziness. also, please do not get into the argument of having time for this and that.
Did I mention your name? But for your information -- there is hardly a difference b/t saying someone does something out of laziness and that they are lazy. now you are simply going to an extreme that I haven't mentioned at all. You are comparing the BIBLE with HYMNS.....that is unacceptable and I am not going to get into it. Without the Bible, we have no faith, no dogma, to basis for our belief and therefore, no hymns within the Church because there wouldn't be a church.
What are you saying? What is unacceptable? Did you even understand the comparison? I'll try to write it more simply for you: You are saying that we should keep Coptic in the hymns because that makes it more difficult for people to understand and there is good in that -- it will help them work out their salvation. I said why not apply the same idea to the Bible. . .read it in Coptic during the liturgy and all services, stop handing them out in English if possible, people will really struggle then. They would have to translate it and look up stuff. They will benefit so much! for some reason you are concentrating on that and leaving everything else that is valid.....EVEN THOUGH what is said is reality; it is what happens out there.....in the church....out side this forum, site, computer screen. silly or not (i can't control your thinking) it is true. And again, you are just taking my argument to one extreme that is was not intended for.
Maybe i can be like you and say, NO!!! we are in an english speaking country we must pray in english. no coptic. coptic is worthless here since 'we can't understand it'
I am taking things to an extreme?! Maybe I should quote what you think will happen if we use more English:
May I make a comparison?
Is anybody concerned that priests and bishops wear an ethnic black garb/tunic in the lands of immigration, even in public? If we are so concerned about merging and complying to a non-Egyptian society in these lands of immigration, why do we still have certain ethic aspects of society that are consistently foreign to the lands of immigration? No seems to have an issue with priests and bishops wearing a black tunic in a Western society. No one even suggests that priests should wear black tunics 20% of the time and Western clothing (shirts, pants, suits, etc) 80% of the time. As far as I know, there has never been a catechumen/convert who complained that Coptic priests are not conforming to the social fashion trends.
Why is language such an issue? Is it possible that we are making an issue out of nothing? I have yet to see a convert complain that there is too much Coptic. I have yet to see a Coptic youth leave the Coptic Church solely for the use of Coptic in liturgical services. I have yet to see one Church father, past and present, who claimed language is a requirement for salvation. I have yet to see one Church father, past or present, who claimed that preaching must be done in the vernacular.
The people who complain the most about Coptic are Copts who want Arabic or English instead of Coptic, not for the youth but for personal preference. The people who leave the Church, generally leave because of personal reasons, not foreign language, not colloquial language, not clothing, not culture. The Church has always gone out of her way to minister to the individual's needs. The Church has gone out of the way to accommodate everyone, and yet people still believe the Church must change so and so for so and so reason.
Really, it comes down to this. We all have our own personal preference of how much Coptic, Arabic and English the Church should allow. Just like we all have our own personal preference of how much we and the Church should conform to social norms like fashion. And we justify our belief by attaching a requirement to it (whether Bishop so and so said so and so or the Bible says so and so, etc.) In reality, it is irrelevant what we think, nor should we make these things an issue. It is the job of the local bishop and priests to make these decisions. If praying in Coptic is a stumbling block, try to do something at the individual level. There are Coptic classes in many Churches. Try taking one first. If you don't have inclination to do so, then attend a service where English is used 50-75%+. If you still find Coptic is a stumbling block, talk to the priest and he decides how much Coptic should or should not be done. Similarly, if the priest's ethnic tunic is a stumbling block, try to understand why he wears such a garment in public. If it still stumbles you, ask him why. If it still stumbles you, then he will find an individualized, custom solution for you. And just like I doubt he will stop wearing a black tunic, I doubt we will ever stop using Coptic in liturgical services.
1) This isn't about people leaving the faith because we pray so much Coptic, it is about them understanding the faith.
-In the Church's wisdom it knew that most people would not read Athanasius, Cyril et al., so they put what they said in the hymnology. Not for the people to go and study the hymns when they got home. But for them to pray it in the church and understand the faith.
2) This isn't about personal preference, this is about understanding.
-How much you care about understanding maybe a personal preference. But the fact that increased use of English will increase understanding is undeniable.
-Your comparing this to the priest's garb?! One being concerned that they can't understand the services is different than one concerned about the priest's attire. The difference is that what they priest wears should have no affect on the person's spiritual growth; praying in a language that one does not know does.
But the black cassock that Coptic and other priests wear in the East was imposed by the Muslims. Coptic clergy would keep trying to change it to blue, and then there would be a massacre or campaign to make all Orthodox clergy wear black again.
There are parts of the world where it is forbidden to wear a cassock in the streets. I have been to Constantinople and the Orthodox clergy are not allowed to wear cassocks. There are Orthodox priests who have to work and cannot always wear a cassock. This does not make them any less a priest. Indeed for much of the history of the Church the clergy did not wear distinctive clothing outside the Church in any case. This really has nothing to do with the use or non use of Coptic in an English ethnic context. The majority of Orthodox Christians who have ever lived have never known or used any Coptic at all.
The connection of priests clothing in the street with the use of Coptic or Arabic in English language countries is not really a sound argument.
It is also reasonable to ask why His Holiness has many titles but none of them refer to Coptic as far as I can see? And why the title of our Church was never the Coptic Orthodox Church until very recently. It is, and continues to be, the Orthodox Church of Alexandria. And the Scriptures themselves, let alone the Fathers of the Church, require that what happens in Church is understandable - this does not of course exclude the use of any particular language in any particular case. But the Feast of Pentecost is all about the Gospel being for all people in their own language.
There is plenty of scope to argue for the use of some Coptic in some contexts, but I do find it problematic when the use of the local language, as has always been proper for all Orthodox, is considered laziness. It may be, but it may well not be. Such generalisations are rarely useful.