I must also say that I have had people in my own congregation, from various ethnic backgrounds, weep because they have understood the prayers they are praying for the first time. They are not Egyptian, but they have faced the obstacle of not understanding in their own churches elsewhere what has been prayed.
Perhaps some of them could have learned other languages back in their home countries, but I know that I am having enough trouble learning Coptic with all my other responsibilities, while they have often faced unbelievable difficulties in their homelands.
English is, in my experience which is not the same as everyone else's, a wonderful means in England of uniting people from many very different backgrounds and experiences. If I lived in Finland I would expect to worship in Finnish, not English, and Finnish would be a wonderful means of uniting people from very different backgrounds in Finland. If I lived in Egypt I would worship in Arabic and Coptic.
None of this requires exclusivity of course. But it does require sensitivity to the congregation and the wider community which the congregation must serve.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg151813#msg151813 date=1329162975] It is also reasonable to ask why His Holiness has many titles but none of them refer to Coptic as far as I can see? And why the title of our Church was never the Coptic Orthodox Church until very recently. It is, and continues to be, the Orthodox Church of Alexandria. And the Scriptures themselves, let alone the Fathers of the Church, require that what happens in Church is understandable - this does not of course exclude the use of any particular language in any particular case. But the Feast of Pentecost is all about the Gospel being for all people in their own language.
A am very interested in this idea. We "copts" tend to forget that we are not just Coptic. As a Coptic Orthodox christian, in order to find my nurture in Orthodoxy have turned to the Eastern Orthodox church. Until recently (being Father Peter's podcast) I had stopped listening to Coptic theology because I found it lacking in real understanding. We need to step of of this idea of "Coptic Pride." Sure it is good to be proud of your history, and your anscestery, but realistically, are we not risking very much falling into the trap of saying, "I am of Mark" or "I am of Peter" or saying "I am western" or "I am eastern or Oriental?" Being Coptic is good, but being Orthodox is better.
I a must also add something here, which I KNOW that I will be disagreed with much. i have come to feel that of all the Orthodox Churches, the Coptic Orthodox Church is becoming the least Orthodox. Maybe we are doing something wrong. Maybe we are focusing on the Coptic part, and less on the Orthodox part of it. We have come to see that being Orthodox means being hardheaded about our rites, our language and all of that. But Orthodox means straight. We must be straight with God and ourselves. Are we protecting a heritage? Is that all that being Orthodox is?
In my opinion, other then flow, and a sense of being ancient, blasting the church with Coptic does little else then make us babbling idiots. We feel proud of ourselves singing Coptic as though it was a special language for the elite. We need to simmer, and just be Orthodox. NOTE: I am not saying lets abolish our Coptic heritage. What I am saying is that if we start to feel that our over-interest heritage is getting in the way of our Orthodox faith (that of understanding what we say) then it should be minimized. I think that there have been enough discussions about this issue to justify me in saying that it is becoming a problem. Lets fix it.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg151813#msg151813 date=1329162975] There is plenty of scope to argue for the use of some Coptic in some contexts, but I do find it problematic when the use of the local language, as has always been proper for all Orthodox, is considered laziness. It may be, but it may well not be. Such generalisations are rarely useful.
Since I was the one who brought this idea to this thread, I didn't make that generalization. I think Andrew is the one very concentrated on it for some reason. Also Abouna, how much of that language is used in the liturgy matters.
What are you saying? What is unacceptable? Did you even understand the comparison? I'll try to write it more simply for you: You are saying that we should keep Coptic in the hymns because that makes it more difficult for people to understand and there is good in that -- it will help them work out their salvation. I said why not apply the same idea to the Bible. . .read it in Coptic during the liturgy and all services, stop handing them out in English if possible, people will really struggle then. They would have to translate it and look up stuff. They will benefit so much!
to "apply the same idea to the Bible" is unacceptable. We NEED what's in the Bible to find salvation. that is not the case with hymns. That's a huge difference.
I am taking things to an extreme?! Maybe I should quote what you think will happen if we use more English:
Why make it so easy to them that whatever you are doing may become nothing more than a routine people do? The words, being said in your native language, will go in one ear and get out of the other......that's it. The easier we make things, the less initiative poeple will have to do ANYTHING....why walk to church (and take the blessings) if i have a car and which will get me there 2 mins faster?
Where is the extreme case? I simply provided an example of what i may think will happened. And what i said is not far fetched. MANY MANY youth in our church are already do this: listen to sermons and lectures and never act on it--words go into one ear and go out the other.
Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
Let's clarify something. The faith is not transmitted exclusively in hymns or in Coptic. It is for this reason, the Church insisted on the catechesis program of Sunday School. Sunday School is not taught in Coptic. It is unfair to say one can't understand the faith because hymns are sung in Coptic.
Additionally, increased use of English does not allot or impart an increase in understanding. I personally do not see how a hymn sung in English that is a translation of a Coptic hymn is more easily understandable than singing the same hymn in Coptic with an English translation right next to it easily accessible to everyone in Church. Whether singing it in English or reading it while singing in Coptic, the words are the same. The faith transmitted in the text is the same. If we were singing a Coptic hymn with no translation, I can understand. But even St Paul says people should speak in tongues if there is someone to interpret. It is not the use of common language that guarantees understanding. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to open one's heart to receive any instruction, regardless of language.
Finally, you apparently missed the point of my post. If the language is a stumbling block, speak to the priest. It is not our job to insist what the Church should or shouldn't do. The minute we start concerning ourselves with what we believe the Church should do, we introduce pride instead of submitting to the will of our mother. Every child thinks they know better than their parents. But it is rarely ever true.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151817#msg151817 date=1329168057] Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
I disagree.......for as much as hymns are important (to me being my doorway into service and deaconship), they are not as important as the Bible. Hymns are sometimes taken from the Bible but i would never use hymns to 'interpret' the Bible. They are written and composed by different people in our Church. Many of the hymns, if not translated correctly, they can be heretical.
I think this is tuning into a hugh can of worms, when really it comes to peoples likes and dislikes and not on the road to zealotry and all the details and directions zealotry takes anyone. I think someone who doesn't like something so much, is less interested in understanding, what the person who loves participating in, is doing; in this case the coptic language.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg151813#msg151813 date=1329162975] The connection of priests clothing in the street with the use of Coptic or Arabic in English language countries is not really a sound argument. I'm sorry, Fr Peter, that I was not clear in my argument. As Joshuaa came to the same conclusion, all I was trying to argue was that likes or dislikes for language usage is similar to likes and dislikes of fashion. They are cultural preferences. Cultural preference is a detail that zealots do not see as a preference but use to justify their view as mandatory. I know I am one of those zealots. Sometimes, this zealous nature goes so far as to claim elevate the Coptic culture above the Orthodoxy of our Church as you described before.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12897.msg151820#msg151820 date=1329170871] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151817#msg151817 date=1329168057] Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
I disagree.......for as much as hymns are important (to me being my doorway into service and deaconship), they are not as important as the Bible. Hymns are sometimes taken from the Bible but i would never use hymns to 'interpret' the Bible. They are written and composed by different people in our Church. Many of the hymns, if not translated correctly, they can be heretical. (emphasis mine)
I like the black cassocks the priests wear. I was told they represented that they were dead to the world. Which is a good thing if you were taking the direction of heaven. Maybe the musims did the priests a favour, likewise, keeping them away from politics by running the country. I'm praying they stay strong and not change.
You know that I respect the Coptic language, have organised intensive courses, and am trying to become fluent in reading Sahidic. And I respect and value your love of your own cultural heritage. I am not an absolutist in this matter or many others. You have youself said what I think. All of our culture is secondary to our Orthodox Faith.
That does not mean it has no value, or even little value. All Orthodox culture and heritage has great value. It is always finding the balance between equally valid requirements which is difficult. My concerns are naturally different in emphasis to someone in a congregation of people of almost entirely Egyptian origin. But the need for the Church always to be looking outwards to the world around seems to be necessary for authentic Orthodoxy, this does not require no Coptic at all, but it does require a sensitivity to the mission which is the foundation of the life of the Church.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12897.msg151820#msg151820 date=1329170871] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151817#msg151817 date=1329168057] Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
I disagree.......for as much as hymns are important (to me being my doorway into service and deaconship), they are not as important as the Bible. Hymns are sometimes taken from the Bible but i would never use hymns to 'interpret' the Bible. They are written and composed by different people in our Church. Many of the hymns, if not translated correctly, they can be heretical.
In the Orthodox Church, our highest authority is Holy Tradition, including the Bible and the hymns (which form part of the liturgy, which is also part of tradition). The Bible being above all the rest is Protestant - sola scriptura (sort of, leaning that way at least). This is not personal, only to add importance to my statement. The Bible is at the top, but not exclusively, however this does not mean that it does not serve as a check for something new to be incorporated into Holy Tradition.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151656#msg151656 date=1328950825] If a group prays in Coptic and without understanding, can this be called prayer? Isn't it more a chanting of various sounds and syllables? What is the point of praying in language you don't understand? Can this please God?
Praying more than 20 % in Coptic (if you don't understand it), is pointless. Yet, time and again I'll go to various churches and services with a lot of Coptic.
People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!
People wonder why Protestant music is popular among COCs...it's because the hymns have become just cool songs in Coptic with awesome hazzat!!
Why aren't we praying predominantly in English?! I want to understand.
It seems that people who like to pray in Coptic (and don't understand the language) want to do so because it "sounds better"...
Hi Andrew, I do understand your frustration, but Why don't you get a book with the translations?
Indeed, at the end of the liturgy, the hymns that are usually sung are in Arabic or Coptic.
Its a bit frustrating and even downright rude to keep on praying in Arabic whilst you're outside of Egypt. Its a lack of integration and it causes division. I agree that we ought to be evangelizing our faith and we will not do this by speaking in a language that is not common with the nation we are living in.
If I remember correctly, the 1st gift given to the apostles was the gift of speaking in tongues/languages so that they could in fact preach.
We are not charismatic/evangelical in our nature, and so what we do preach with is our liturgy and faith. A fat lot of good this will do anyone who doesn't speak Arabic or English.
This is quite annoying, because :
The Russian Orthodox Church prays in Russian during its services (whether in Russia or outside of Russia) The Greek Orthodox Church prays in Greek during its services (whether in Greece or outside of Greece) The Romanian Orthodox Church prays in Romanian during its services (whether in or outside of Romania).
But the Coptic Orthodox Church stick to Coptic.At least being EO means that even if you pray in your national home or mother tongue, you're still understanding it.
As a Coptic Christian, who will understand coptic?
We had this debate ages ago, and the majority on here concluded that Coptic isn't going to die - and its up to us to learn this language.
Personally speaking, if I could learn this language, that would be great, but i've many many more things to do than to learn a language that is quite dead. Its so historic. Its like learning latin to pray in a traditional catholic mass. There's no point. The latin parts that are used are so minimal that no one is bothered.
What bothers me the most is that whenever you pray in a language that is foreign to you, your mind could wander. This is dangerous. So, rather than you "hearing" the words of God in a hymn, you are not hearing them. You are just enjoying the music. Its God's Words in the hymns that we have that cleanse our heart, that alert our consciences that purify our minds and thoughts that is valuable. Its the listening and understanding of his words.
If I heard a sermon from a priest, and he quoted a bible passage, I would LOVE the sermon. I always learn something, even if he waffles. Its the words of the Bible that are important to us, and I don't think we are enjoying them much if we are non Arabic speaking and non Coptic Speaking Christians living outside of Egypt.
Dear Zoxsasi, You said: "The Russian Orthodox Church prays in Russian during its services (whether in Russia or outside of Russia) The Greek Orthodox Church prays in Greek during its services (whether in Greece or outside of Greece) The Romanian Orthodox Church prays in Romanian during its services (whether in or outside of Romania)." Thanks man. The truth is the Coptic identity is so flimsy. Without getting into any psychological or philosophical arguments, the collective Coptic ideology and "idealism" about its language, culture, rituals, uniqueness, etc is not held as steadfastly as other nations. You can see that if you read the history of the Copts, and how weakness intruded their very natures, and they succumbed "eventually maybe" to external forces, disregarding (and sometimes even themselves) disdaining their original language and cultural customs. Anyway, the point is today the people who attack the language are the one they call it their own!!! You said "Personally speaking, if I could learn this language, that would be great, but i've many many more things to do than to learn a language that is quite dead. Its so historic. Its like learning latin to pray in a traditional catholic mass. There's no point. The latin parts that are used are so minimal that no one is bothered." Coptic language is not dead. Only twice in my life (if I remember rightly) have I attended a Catholic Mass. I can not comment on the use of Latin as such. You said: "What bothers me the most is that whenever you pray in a language that is foreign to you, your mind could wander. This is dangerous. So, rather than you "hearing" the words of God in a hymn, you are not hearing them. You are just enjoying the music." That is not perfectly right. As remenkimi pointed out before, there are many (not only a handful) of hymns that comprise only one, or a couple of words at best. It is this kind of music that serves to lift the spirit upwards (are our hymns lifting at all? Anybody), and it has a very healing and spiritual power, in the sense that it pushes you out of the dark into the light (oh seriously? What about Christian songs, or worldly songs even? Does heavy metal affect the person's integrity? Does classic music induce calm?). Anyway, the point is you don't wander because of the complexity of hymns, but if you listen passively to any hymn, then I argue, why do you go to church in the first place? I know people who are not Copts, but newcomers, or converts, who keep humming along with all the hymns until they master them (if they are only 2 - 3 minutes long), and with the even longer ones, they don't master, but they keep humming along. Oujai qen `P[C
ophadece, the point you miss is that most of the English people who used to worship with the Russians have now left because the use of Church Slavonic excludes them (and indeed many of the Russian who are recent immigrants). They ask, reasonably, why they are not able to worship in the language of this country?
Most Greek Orthodox do not go to Church except for the important Feasts and cannot easily understand what is being said when they do.
In Russia only 3% of members of the Orthodox Church attend the Church.
Why is it that the titles of our Patriarch do not mention the word Coptic? How was it possible in the past for ethnic Syrians to become Patriarchs?
We are Orthodox before we are Coptic, and many of us cannot be Coptic because we are English, or American or Canadian or Mexican. If the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria is only for those who speak Coptic then it is not the same Patriarchate that it was in the times of our Fathers. The Church of Ethiopia was until recently part of the same Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, as was the Church of Sudan, and the Church of Nubia. But these all worshipped in their own languages while being part of the same Church.
It is a weakness of the Russian and Greek Churches in the UK and elsewhere when it worships in a foreign language, it is not a strength at all. The loss of many faithful members, and the absence of the majority, do not point to the use of a foreign language as the majority language of worship as being a success.
Those Russians who have come to live in England need to learn English and become English citizens from a Russian cultural background. If they wish to be only Russians then the English population will ask why they have come here.
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643] I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
I really disagree with you.
This has nothing to do with blaming someone or something on anyone's failure(s).
The Church is like a hospital where one goes to get treated for illnesses. Its where one's heart is constantly purified and cleansed from hearing and absorbing the word of God; through assimilating and digesting His Word.
It would be like a patient being extremely ill and giving him medication without a spoon, or some drug without a syringe.
Medicine without the right tools cannot be administered correctly, even if its the best medicine in the world.
Would you go to a 3 star Michelin restaurant and pay a lot of money for a 5 course meal knowing that they didn't have forks, spoons and knives?
The Church is like a hospital where one goes to get treated for illnesses. Its where one's heart is constantly purified and cleansed from hearing and absorbing the word of God; through assimilating and digesting His Word.
Are you saying that your local church stopped being a hospital because of Coptic usage?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643] I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643] I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151918#msg151918 date=1329276245] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643] I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
No one is arguing that frequent use of the Coptic language is the sole reason that a person /the youth are lacking spiritually.
But it is one of the several reasons. While the other factors are personal, this one is communal. I can begin to read the agbeya to help my spirituality, etc. Others may not make that choice. The only thing they may have as a source for God's word and teaching may be in the church. Why deny them that source? Just because they have denied themselves the others? That seems unfair.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151920#msg151920 date=1329276881] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151918#msg151918 date=1329276245] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643] I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
No one is arguing that frequent use of the Coptic language is the sole reason that a person /the youth are lacking spiritually.
But it is one of the several reasons. While the other factors are personal, this one is communal. I can begin to read the agbeya to help my spirituality, etc. Others may not make that choice. The only thing they may have as a source for God's word and teaching may be in the church. Why deny them that source? Just because they have denied themselves the others? That seems unfair.
I think you have begun to get to the real issue.
The problem is that we make choices that affect our spiritual growth. Praying is a must for spiritual growth and I do not believe that teaching this virtue is done in Coptic in the Church. However, why do we fail to follow the advice? Is it because of the Coptic language?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151923#msg151923 date=1329277908] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151920#msg151920 date=1329276881] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151918#msg151918 date=1329276245] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643] I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
No one is arguing that frequent use of the Coptic language is the sole reason that a person /the youth are lacking spiritually.
But it is one of the several reasons. While the other factors are personal, this one is communal. I can begin to read the agbeya to help my spirituality, etc. Others may not make that choice. The only thing they may have as a source for God's word and teaching may be in the church. Why deny them that source? Just because they have denied themselves the others? That seems unfair.
I think you have begun to get to the real issue.
The problem is that we make choices that affect our spiritual growth. Praying is a must for spiritual growth and I do not believe that teaching this virtue is done in Coptic in the Church. However, why do we fail to follow the advice? Is it because of the Coptic language?
Now you are just conflating issues and confusing things.
This has nothing to do with spirituality in the first place. This is about understanding what it said. Surely we can all enjoy the liturgy and benefit from the services without understanding a thing. But the more we understand the more we can benefit.
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church? Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Whatever the initial issue was, in the end Coptic is just another language, just as Rome, Constantinople and Alexandria are just cities.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151929#msg151929 date=1329278881] Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church? Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
I wish to comment on this. I think the interest to be in the Church, to learn her hymns, her rites and tradition must come from the parents and partially the servants on the church......and that doesn't happen during the liturgy but rather outside it during sunday school, meetings, social events within Church.
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church?
Yes, I do think they have the capability if they have the proper role model. St Timothy know from his youth the scriptures, St Mary dedicated her life to serve the Lord from her youth, St Bishoy and St Shenouda practiced asceticism at a very young, the three saintly youth, Daniel, Abanoub, Youwannas, St Marina, St Demiana, and the list is endless.
Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
No I do not think it does. On the contrary it increases the interest in the Church.
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church?
Yes, I do think they have the capability if they have the proper role model. St Timothy know from his youth the scriptures, St Mary dedicated her life to serve the Lord from her youth, St Bishoy and St Shenouda practiced asceticism at a very young, the three saintly youth, Daniel, Abanoub, Youwannas, St Marina, St Demiana, and the list is endless.
Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
No I do not think it does. On the contrary it increases the interest in the Church.
Food for thought: Did any of the saints you listed above attend a church in which they could not understand the hymns?
I think you speak for the minority when you say that a language barrier serves to increase interest in the church.
Comments
Perhaps some of them could have learned other languages back in their home countries, but I know that I am having enough trouble learning Coptic with all my other responsibilities, while they have often faced unbelievable difficulties in their homelands.
English is, in my experience which is not the same as everyone else's, a wonderful means in England of uniting people from many very different backgrounds and experiences. If I lived in Finland I would expect to worship in Finnish, not English, and Finnish would be a wonderful means of uniting people from very different backgrounds in Finland. If I lived in Egypt I would worship in Arabic and Coptic.
None of this requires exclusivity of course. But it does require sensitivity to the congregation and the wider community which the congregation must serve.
It is also reasonable to ask why His Holiness has many titles but none of them refer to Coptic as far as I can see? And why the title of our Church was never the Coptic Orthodox Church until very recently. It is, and continues to be, the Orthodox Church of Alexandria. And the Scriptures themselves, let alone the Fathers of the Church, require that what happens in Church is understandable - this does not of course exclude the use of any particular language in any particular case. But the Feast of Pentecost is all about the Gospel being for all people in their own language.
A am very interested in this idea. We "copts" tend to forget that we are not just Coptic. As a Coptic Orthodox christian, in order to find my nurture in Orthodoxy have turned to the Eastern Orthodox church. Until recently (being Father Peter's podcast) I had stopped listening to Coptic theology because I found it lacking in real understanding. We need to step of of this idea of "Coptic Pride." Sure it is good to be proud of your history, and your anscestery, but realistically, are we not risking very much falling into the trap of saying, "I am of Mark" or "I am of Peter" or saying "I am western" or "I am eastern or Oriental?" Being Coptic is good, but being Orthodox is better.
I a must also add something here, which I KNOW that I will be disagreed with much. i have come to feel that of all the Orthodox Churches, the Coptic Orthodox Church is becoming the least Orthodox. Maybe we are doing something wrong. Maybe we are focusing on the Coptic part, and less on the Orthodox part of it. We have come to see that being Orthodox means being hardheaded about our rites, our language and all of that. But Orthodox means straight. We must be straight with God and ourselves. Are we protecting a heritage? Is that all that being Orthodox is?
In my opinion, other then flow, and a sense of being ancient, blasting the church with Coptic does little else then make us babbling idiots. We feel proud of ourselves singing Coptic as though it was a special language for the elite. We need to simmer, and just be Orthodox. NOTE: I am not saying lets abolish our Coptic heritage. What I am saying is that if we start to feel that our over-interest heritage is getting in the way of our Orthodox faith (that of understanding what we say) then it should be minimized. I think that there have been enough discussions about this issue to justify me in saying that it is becoming a problem. Lets fix it.
ReturnOrthodoxy
There is plenty of scope to argue for the use of some Coptic in some contexts, but I do find it problematic when the use of the local language, as has always been proper for all Orthodox, is considered laziness. It may be, but it may well not be. Such generalisations are rarely useful.
Since I was the one who brought this idea to this thread, I didn't make that generalization. I think Andrew is the one very concentrated on it for some reason. Also Abouna, how much of that language is used in the liturgy matters. to "apply the same idea to the Bible" is unacceptable. We NEED what's in the Bible to find salvation. that is not the case with hymns. That's a huge difference. Where is the extreme case? I simply provided an example of what i may think will happened. And what i said is not far fetched. MANY MANY youth in our church are already do this: listen to sermons and lectures and never act on it--words go into one ear and go out the other.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
Additionally, increased use of English does not allot or impart an increase in understanding. I personally do not see how a hymn sung in English that is a translation of a Coptic hymn is more easily understandable than singing the same hymn in Coptic with an English translation right next to it easily accessible to everyone in Church. Whether singing it in English or reading it while singing in Coptic, the words are the same. The faith transmitted in the text is the same. If we were singing a Coptic hymn with no translation, I can understand. But even St Paul says people should speak in tongues if there is someone to interpret. It is not the use of common language that guarantees understanding. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to open one's heart to receive any instruction, regardless of language.
Finally, you apparently missed the point of my post. If the language is a stumbling block, speak to the priest. It is not our job to insist what the Church should or shouldn't do. The minute we start concerning ourselves with what we believe the Church should do, we introduce pride instead of submitting to the will of our mother. Every child thinks they know better than their parents. But it is rarely ever true.
Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
I disagree.......for as much as hymns are important (to me being my doorway into service and deaconship), they are not as important as the Bible. Hymns are sometimes taken from the Bible but i would never use hymns to 'interpret' the Bible. They are written and composed by different people in our Church. Many of the hymns, if not translated correctly, they can be heretical.
I think this is tuning into a hugh can of worms, when really it comes to peoples likes and dislikes and not on the road to zealotry and all the details and directions zealotry takes anyone. I think someone who doesn't like something so much, is less interested in understanding, what the person who loves participating in, is doing; in this case the coptic language.
The connection of priests clothing in the street with the use of Coptic or Arabic in English language countries is not really a sound argument.
I'm sorry, Fr Peter, that I was not clear in my argument. As Joshuaa came to the same conclusion, all I was trying to argue was that likes or dislikes for language usage is similar to likes and dislikes of fashion. They are cultural preferences. Cultural preference is a detail that zealots do not see as a preference but use to justify their view as mandatory. I know I am one of those zealots. Sometimes, this zealous nature goes so far as to claim elevate the Coptic culture above the Orthodoxy of our Church as you described before.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151817#msg151817 date=1329168057]
Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
I disagree.......for as much as hymns are important (to me being my doorway into service and deaconship), they are not as important as the Bible. Hymns are sometimes taken from the Bible but i would never use hymns to 'interpret' the Bible. They are written and composed by different people in our Church. Many of the hymns, if not translated correctly, they can be heretical.
(emphasis mine)
I am afraid that is your opinion.
I like the black cassocks the priests wear. I was told they represented that they were dead to the world. Which is a good thing if you were taking the direction of heaven. Maybe the musims did the priests a favour, likewise, keeping them away from politics by running the country. I'm praying they stay strong and not change.
You know that I respect the Coptic language, have organised intensive courses, and am trying to become fluent in reading Sahidic. And I respect and value your love of your own cultural heritage. I am not an absolutist in this matter or many others. You have youself said what I think. All of our culture is secondary to our Orthodox Faith.
That does not mean it has no value, or even little value. All Orthodox culture and heritage has great value. It is always finding the balance between equally valid requirements which is difficult. My concerns are naturally different in emphasis to someone in a congregation of people of almost entirely Egyptian origin. But the need for the Church always to be looking outwards to the world around seems to be necessary for authentic Orthodoxy, this does not require no Coptic at all, but it does require a sensitivity to the mission which is the foundation of the life of the Church.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151817#msg151817 date=1329168057]
Mina, as you know, we need what is in the hymns to understand the Bible. Without the church explaining to us how we should interpret what the Bible says, we will all come up with wrong conclusions. Knowing the hymns teaches us how to read the Bible and understand it the way our fathers did.
So your idea that somehow hymns don't matter as much as the Bible is incorrect, in my opinion. We need them both and we need them both in English, or whatever language the people speak.
I disagree.......for as much as hymns are important (to me being my doorway into service and deaconship), they are not as important as the Bible. Hymns are sometimes taken from the Bible but i would never use hymns to 'interpret' the Bible. They are written and composed by different people in our Church. Many of the hymns, if not translated correctly, they can be heretical.
In the Orthodox Church, our highest authority is Holy Tradition, including the Bible and the hymns (which form part of the liturgy, which is also part of tradition). The Bible being above all the rest is Protestant - sola scriptura (sort of, leaning that way at least). This is not personal, only to add importance to my statement. The Bible is at the top, but not exclusively, however this does not mean that it does not serve as a check for something new to be incorporated into Holy Tradition.
Source: Becoming Orthodox
If a group prays in Coptic and without understanding, can this be called prayer? Isn't it more a chanting of various sounds and syllables? What is the point of praying in language you don't understand? Can this please God?
Praying more than 20 % in Coptic (if you don't understand it), is pointless. Yet, time and again I'll go to various churches and services with a lot of Coptic.
People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!
People wonder why Protestant music is popular among COCs...it's because the hymns have become just cool songs in Coptic with awesome hazzat!!
Why aren't we praying predominantly in English?! I want to understand.
It seems that people who like to pray in Coptic (and don't understand the language) want to do so because it "sounds better"...
Hi Andrew,
I do understand your frustration, but
Why don't you get a book with the translations?
Indeed, at the end of the liturgy, the hymns that are usually sung are in Arabic or Coptic.
Its a bit frustrating and even downright rude to keep on praying in Arabic whilst you're outside of Egypt. Its a lack of integration and it causes division. I agree that we ought to be evangelizing our faith and we will not do this by speaking in a language that is not common with the nation we are living in.
If I remember correctly, the 1st gift given to the apostles was the gift of speaking in tongues/languages so that they could in fact preach.
We are not charismatic/evangelical in our nature, and so what we do preach with is our liturgy and faith. A fat lot of good this will do anyone who doesn't speak Arabic or English.
This is quite annoying, because :
The Russian Orthodox Church prays in Russian during its services (whether in Russia or outside of Russia)
The Greek Orthodox Church prays in Greek during its services (whether in Greece or outside of Greece)
The Romanian Orthodox Church prays in Romanian during its services (whether in or outside of Romania).
But the Coptic Orthodox Church stick to Coptic.At least being EO means that even if you pray in your national home or mother tongue, you're still understanding it.
As a Coptic Christian, who will understand coptic?
We had this debate ages ago, and the majority on here concluded that Coptic isn't going to die - and its up to us to learn this language.
Personally speaking, if I could learn this language, that would be great, but i've many many more things to do than to learn a language that is quite dead. Its so historic. Its like learning latin to pray in a traditional catholic mass. There's no point. The latin parts that are used are so minimal that no one is bothered.
What bothers me the most is that whenever you pray in a language that is foreign to you, your mind could wander. This is dangerous. So, rather than you "hearing" the words of God in a hymn, you are not hearing them. You are just enjoying the music. Its God's Words in the hymns that we have that cleanse our heart, that alert our consciences that purify our minds and thoughts that is valuable. Its the listening and understanding of his words.
If I heard a sermon from a priest, and he quoted a bible passage, I would LOVE the sermon. I always learn something, even if he waffles. Its the words of the Bible that are important to us, and I don't think we are enjoying them much if we are non Arabic speaking and non Coptic Speaking Christians living outside of Egypt.
No wonder our youth are going to the protestants.
You said: "The Russian Orthodox Church prays in Russian during its services (whether in Russia or outside of Russia)
The Greek Orthodox Church prays in Greek during its services (whether in Greece or outside of Greece)
The Romanian Orthodox Church prays in Romanian during its services (whether in or outside of Romania)."
Thanks man. The truth is the Coptic identity is so flimsy. Without getting into any psychological or philosophical arguments, the collective Coptic ideology and "idealism" about its language, culture, rituals, uniqueness, etc is not held as steadfastly as other nations. You can see that if you read the history of the Copts, and how weakness intruded their very natures, and they succumbed "eventually maybe" to external forces, disregarding (and sometimes even themselves) disdaining their original language and cultural customs. Anyway, the point is today the people who attack the language are the one they call it their own!!!
You said "Personally speaking, if I could learn this language, that would be great, but i've many many more things to do than to learn a language that is quite dead. Its so historic. Its like learning latin to pray in a traditional catholic mass. There's no point. The latin parts that are used are so minimal that no one is bothered."
Coptic language is not dead. Only twice in my life (if I remember rightly) have I attended a Catholic Mass. I can not comment on the use of Latin as such.
You said: "What bothers me the most is that whenever you pray in a language that is foreign to you, your mind could wander. This is dangerous. So, rather than you "hearing" the words of God in a hymn, you are not hearing them. You are just enjoying the music."
That is not perfectly right. As remenkimi pointed out before, there are many (not only a handful) of hymns that comprise only one, or a couple of words at best. It is this kind of music that serves to lift the spirit upwards (are our hymns lifting at all? Anybody), and it has a very healing and spiritual power, in the sense that it pushes you out of the dark into the light (oh seriously? What about Christian songs, or worldly songs even? Does heavy metal affect the person's integrity? Does classic music induce calm?). Anyway, the point is you don't wander because of the complexity of hymns, but if you listen passively to any hymn, then I argue, why do you go to church in the first place? I know people who are not Copts, but newcomers, or converts, who keep humming along with all the hymns until they master them (if they are only 2 - 3 minutes long), and with the even longer ones, they don't master, but they keep humming along.
Oujai qen `P[C
Most Greek Orthodox do not go to Church except for the important Feasts and cannot easily understand what is being said when they do.
In Russia only 3% of members of the Orthodox Church attend the Church.
Why is it that the titles of our Patriarch do not mention the word Coptic? How was it possible in the past for ethnic Syrians to become Patriarchs?
We are Orthodox before we are Coptic, and many of us cannot be Coptic because we are English, or American or Canadian or Mexican. If the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria is only for those who speak Coptic then it is not the same Patriarchate that it was in the times of our Fathers. The Church of Ethiopia was until recently part of the same Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, as was the Church of Sudan, and the Church of Nubia. But these all worshipped in their own languages while being part of the same Church.
It is a weakness of the Russian and Greek Churches in the UK and elsewhere when it worships in a foreign language, it is not a strength at all. The loss of many faithful members, and the absence of the majority, do not point to the use of a foreign language as the majority language of worship as being a success.
Those Russians who have come to live in England need to learn English and become English citizens from a Russian cultural background. If they wish to be only Russians then the English population will ask why they have come here.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
I really disagree with you.
This has nothing to do with blaming someone or something on anyone's failure(s).
The Church is like a hospital where one goes to get treated for illnesses. Its where one's heart is constantly purified and cleansed from hearing and absorbing the word of God; through assimilating and digesting His Word.
It would be like a patient being extremely ill and giving him medication without a spoon, or some drug without a syringe.
Medicine without the right tools cannot be administered correctly, even if its the best medicine in the world.
Would you go to a 3 star Michelin restaurant and pay a lot of money for a 5 course meal knowing that they didn't have forks, spoons and knives?
I have uploaded another podcast here..
http://orthodoxfaith.podbean.com/2012/02/14/the-orthodox-christology-of-st-severus/
It is on the Orthodox Christology of St Severus. I hope that you might enjoy it.
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643]
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643]
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
No one is arguing that frequent use of the Coptic language is the sole reason that a person /the youth are lacking spiritually.
But it is one of the several reasons. While the other factors are personal, this one is communal. I can begin to read the agbeya to help my spirituality, etc. Others may not make that choice. The only thing they may have as a source for God's word and teaching may be in the church. Why deny them that source? Just because they have denied themselves the others? That seems unfair.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151918#msg151918 date=1329276245]
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643]
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
No one is arguing that frequent use of the Coptic language is the sole reason that a person /the youth are lacking spiritually.
But it is one of the several reasons. While the other factors are personal, this one is communal. I can begin to read the agbeya to help my spirituality, etc. Others may not make that choice. The only thing they may have as a source for God's word and teaching may be in the church. Why deny them that source? Just because they have denied themselves the others? That seems unfair.
I think you have begun to get to the real issue.
The problem is that we make choices that affect our spiritual growth. Praying is a must for spiritual growth and I do not believe that teaching this virtue is done in Coptic in the Church. However, why do we fail to follow the advice? Is it because of the Coptic language?
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151920#msg151920 date=1329276881]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151918#msg151918 date=1329276245]
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151907#msg151907 date=1329257335]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151875#msg151875 date=1329227643]
I have read quickly through the posts on this thread .. I have noticed a common theme with discussions like this. The bottom line is that people like to to blame something for their failures .. it is human nature and it did start with our father Adam in the garden.
Believe me the problem is not the language, the music, the chanters, the priests, the bishops, ...The problem is that we do not have a deep spiritual life.
How many of us, honestly, read the Bible on a daily basis? How many of us, pray with the Ajbeya everyday? How many fast Wednesdays and Fridays with spiritual understanding? How many pray before going to rest at night and after getting up in the morning? How many show love to others and reflect Christ in their behavior on a daily basis? How many have allotted a daily time to examine themselves and ask for forgiveness? How many pray for the homeless, peace for the world, unbelievers to become part of the Lord's flock, ...?
All of these practices have nothing to do with the Coptic language, yet most of us fail to do. Do you really believe that the failure to do any of these is because of the Coptic language usage? If you do, you need to seriously examine your spiritual life.
It is nice that we should examine our spiritual lives daily. We can blame everything on lack of spirituality -- but should we? I don't think that we should have this attitude of "just be spiritual and let anything go." We could apply this to other issues we have discussed (e.g. disorganization in church, etc. ). Even if we are spiritual and are not affected by the language of the liturgical services, we may have weaker brothers and sisters who are.
I agree. However, the notion that we are lacking spiritually because of the Coptic language is an absurd one.
A whole nation repented because of a handful of words. When there is lack of spirituality, it is the person's heart not the Church. To say that we cannot find spirituality in the Church is equivalent of saying that the Church has lost Christ, God forbid.
Christ will always be in the Church and the Church is always ready to offer Christ. It is up to us to open our hearts and receive Him.
No one is arguing that frequent use of the Coptic language is the sole reason that a person /the youth are lacking spiritually.
But it is one of the several reasons. While the other factors are personal, this one is communal. I can begin to read the agbeya to help my spirituality, etc. Others may not make that choice. The only thing they may have as a source for God's word and teaching may be in the church. Why deny them that source? Just because they have denied themselves the others? That seems unfair.
I think you have begun to get to the real issue.
The problem is that we make choices that affect our spiritual growth. Praying is a must for spiritual growth and I do not believe that teaching this virtue is done in Coptic in the Church. However, why do we fail to follow the advice? Is it because of the Coptic language?
Now you are just conflating issues and confusing things.
This has nothing to do with spirituality in the first place. This is about understanding what it said. Surely we can all enjoy the liturgy and benefit from the services without understanding a thing. But the more we understand the more we can benefit.
You started this thread with:
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Andrew,
You started this thread with:
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church? Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
Andrew,
You started this thread with:
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Whatever the initial issue was, in the end Coptic is just another language, just as Rome, Constantinople and Alexandria are just cities.
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church? Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
I wish to comment on this. I think the interest to be in the Church, to learn her hymns, her rites and tradition must come from the parents and partially the servants on the church......and that doesn't happen during the liturgy but rather outside it during sunday school, meetings, social events within Church.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151927#msg151927 date=1329278661]
Andrew,
You started this thread with:
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church?
Yes, I do think they have the capability if they have the proper role model. St Timothy know from his youth the scriptures, St Mary dedicated her life to serve the Lord from her youth, St Bishoy and St Shenouda practiced asceticism at a very young, the three saintly youth, Daniel, Abanoub, Youwannas, St Marina, St Demiana, and the list is endless.
No I do not think it does. On the contrary it increases the interest in the Church.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151929#msg151929 date=1329278881]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151927#msg151927 date=1329278661]
Andrew,
You started this thread with:
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church?
Yes, I do think they have the capability if they have the proper role model. St Timothy know from his youth the scriptures, St Mary dedicated her life to serve the Lord from her youth, St Bishoy and St Shenouda practiced asceticism at a very young, the three saintly youth, Daniel, Abanoub, Youwannas, St Marina, St Demiana, and the list is endless.
No I do not think it does. On the contrary it increases the interest in the Church.
Food for thought: Did any of the saints you listed above attend a church in which they could not understand the hymns?
I think you speak for the minority when you say that a language barrier serves to increase interest in the church.