The first is Greek and the second is Coptic. I don't lie. Ϯⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲕⲏⲙⲓ ⲁⲛ ϧⲉⲛ ⲟⲩϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ϫⲏⲕ ⲉ̀ⲃⲟⲗ ⲟⲩⲇⲉ ⲛ̀ⲕⲟⲩϫⲓ. I don't speak Coptic fluently (just a little).
Well, I was hoping you would hammer home the fact that more than just "don't judge all Christians", but invite the atheist to Church and invite the atheist into your own Christian life (this may even motivate you to lead a better spiritual life for that person). Give him a taste of what it's like to be a Christian.
God became man so that man might become God. If you want to prove God's existence, you got become God for that person.
I think you can have really good arguments with someone, but if you don't have hope in your arguments, you will lose the person. It says a lot when St. Peter says to be ready to give a defense for the Hope you have in you. So it's not merely an intellectual discussion, but a real attitude. He needs to feel that hope, no matter what he throws at you to try to deride your beliefs.
I'll leave you with this story from HG Bishop Youssef, just recently put up on CYC. The whole lecture I think is a waste of time. It does nothing but make us as Christians feel better about ourselves, but His Grace, and pretend perhaps the atheist was just being nice but not convinced at the two-hour discussion, does in fact give us exactly what a good Christian and good shepherd does, who leaves the 99 sheep and goes after the one who is lost, spending as much time as he needs to show his love to the man and seeking to get the atheist to pray with him for 10 days in the Church, knowing that with spiritual exercises and exposure, he might have his heart open to believe (it's a sad story at the end, but I think this is the most important part to understand). I'm sure a lot of the arguments may or may not have been convincing, but the issue of faith is not an argumentative one, but one that is experienced. "Taste and see that the Lord is good."
It's really the best you can offer. Be like St. Peter, who poor, saying "silver and gold I have none, but what I have I give." You may not be able to refute his arguments, but what you may have is your love to that person. He will say, "You Christians don't walk your talk." Your reply: "Give me a chance to be the one to walk the talk for you." If you become friends with him, challenge him to perhaps be slightly ascetic, to avoid a sin he engages in, something easy over time. Over time, it's not an article or a gospel that will change him, but your way of life.
So put down your gloves, and be compassionate and humble. They have a point after all. Most probably, their atheism is reactionary (I know some atheists have different backgrounds and reasons for not believing, but I think USUALLY they tend to make it rational only after the fact they grew up not having a good Christian community support or witnessing Christian hypocrisy or irrational responses to certain areas of study, like science), and they will react to your love. It may take years, maybe decades. But something will finally click with the grace of God by your prayers and examples. You will learn more about your faith, and he will learn more sophisticated arguments, which may help. But most importantly, the divine life in you is the proof that God exists for him.
Sorry I ruffled a few feathers, but I wanted to point out how you deal with an atheist. If they walk away from you, well then, just pray for them. But if they stick around, reveal to them Christ in you. What I wanted to get from you guys is not merely defending yourselves, but offering yourself to that person.
That is because you have your internet browser set to read Latin (or some other non-Unicode) encoding instead of Unicode or you don't have a Unicode font that has Coptic in it. (Install New Athena or Antinoou fonts or Arial Coptic). If after you install it, it still gives you boxes, then go to Internet Explorer's Options and change the character set to Unicode.
The Coptic said "afchinon ennetnoun afti nan ennitinof" which is the refrain of the Friday Theotokia. It means "He took what is ours and gave us what is his". This is synonymous with "God became man so that man might become God". Apparently we think alike (sometimes).
And FYI, you didn't ruffle my feathers at all. If we had this entire thread as a face to face conversation, you would see a lot of joy. This is something you don't get with internet discussions.
We love God so we talk to Him; we talk to Him so that we have a relationship with Him; we have a relationship with Him so that we can learn from Him; we learn from Him so that we can be like Him. That's where I was headed with this (I think).
Anyway, I learned a lot from this thread :) Thank you (everyone) for your posts!
That is because you have your internet browser set to read Latin (or some other non-Unicode) encoding instead of Unicode or you don't have a Unicode font that has Coptic in it. (Install New Athena or Antinoou fonts or Arial Coptic). If after you install it, it still gives you boxes, then go to Internet Explorer's Options and change the character set to Unicode.
The Coptic said "afchinon ennetnoun afti nan ennitinof" which is the refrain of the Friday Theotokia. It means "He took what is ours and gave us what is his". This is synonymous with "God became man so that man might become God". Apparently we think alike (sometimes).
And FYI, you didn't ruffle my feathers at all. If we had this entire thread as a face to face conversation, you would see a lot of joy. This is something you don't get with internet discussions.
Sadly true! An internet discussion loses the sense of emotional face-to-face value of a discussion. But even face-to-face discussion can only go so far.
Now that I know what you wrote, I will concede you, my friend, have given the correct answer :) . The proof for God is not in our arguments, but in our actions. Theosis is not just something that we say, but something that we live.
I remember the first time I read about theosis, it was an enlightening moment in my undergrad days, since in those days I had two very close friends that I would spend hours on end having philosophical discussions with, one a deist and the other a pluralist (Hindu). I thought those were some of the toughest arguments they gave, more than the atheists I knew. And I struggled a bit with my beliefs. But when I read that Christ became man not just merely for sin, then it was as if a lightbulb hit. The problem of atheism is not some sort of philosophical outgrowth of Kant and naturalism, but the lack of Christian behavior among Christians. If you are morally no different than another non-Christian, or you don't stand out in a positive way, you have given the feeling to an atheist of "proof" that all religions are just the same and that there's no real proof of God. And that's probably why Fr. Robert Barron laments how Catholics don't think doctrine is important as long as "you're a good person". If morality was the only thing religion was for, then there is no need for religion. For us Christians, we need to learn how to stand out so that there's no excuse for anyone around you to say, "you're no different than others".
So in the end, ya, sure, what you believe does matter. But even more importantly, what you do matters even more! And that's my nuanced correction to Fr. Robert Barron. That's the only way to refute the ideas of Kant. Kant was looking for someone who can transcend the community. The Church didn't have that, so his moral philosophy became individualistic and a-dogmatic. It was reactionary, and that is what Fr. Robert Barron misses in his argument. We spent too much time giving a set order of beliefs devoid of showing how these beliefs come to life to others. That is why Kant believed what he believed.
So if an atheist insists we're hypocritical, then invite him: "come and see."
So I have another question. If we're dropping the arguments and leading by example (hoping atheists will react to our love), how then will we stand out from other religions who use the same method (Islam for example?) "Well Mr. Atheist, I know Mohammed teaches violence in some aspects, but like Christianity, come and see we are loving too". I think, like hgby, we should also be ready to answer their questions along with "standing out". My thinking is the truth will prevail.. if we can't show it with our actions, our Orthodox doctrine can through the Truth it teaches. I understand (even after 2 hours) verbal arguments can lead to nothing, but I think we should still be prepared to answer by knowing what our church teaches, right?
We are faced with a dilemma. To the atheist, Islam and Christianity are no different. All are just as "oppressive", all have committed ethical crimes against humanity. All claim the truth. Both the doctrine and moral action contradict what the have "seen when they came".
TITL's question is very intriguing. Perhaps, as she alludes, the argument is more pertinent to Islam than atheism. One of the main factors of atheism is that they avoid any and all discussions about God. It is no different than arguing with the six year old over Santa. They do their best to change the topic if needed and they rarely bring up a discussion on theism.
The Muslim on the other hand has no problem insisting that religion defines each person's core. I personally experienced Muslims tell me "Muslims who advocate fundamentalism do not interpret Islam correctly. Islam is a religion of love." It was their way of saying "come and see".
I didn't know atheists hate talking about God? I always thought they loved religious discussions so they can prove their point that God doesn't exist? I don't know.. I've never actually talked with an atheist. It's just what I see on TV lol
Well, any atheist can argue on how there's no need for religion for someone to understand moral concepts based on the golden rule. I think we as Christians should not disagree. What we should do is that our Christianity must make us stand out. If we don't stand out, that is if we're not different from the Muslim, the Jew, the Hindu, the Buddhist, etc., then there is no real truth in Christianity. I could appeal to look at Church history, and how how many of the social services the whole world adopts today were actually Christian in origin, and I believe history stands as a witness to Christian truth, although I feel that history was also muddied when Christianity became imperial. In which case, I try also to show the philosophical sophistication of our Church fathers and how their teachings culminated from the first centuries of Christian struggle and witnessing.
So yes, truth can prevail, but it goes without saying God is not concerned about arguments, but actions. We cannot blame anyone for not seeing the difference if our actions do not reflect what we believe. Muslims believe in transactions of morality. In other words, one good deed is worth 10 bad deeds. That's how their sins are "forgiven". In a sense, we as Christians have shown that transactions are terrible moral measures, and we should act and feel as if that an infinite good deeds would cover our bad deeds. In other words, only God can forgive our sins, not our actions. By doing good deeds, we do them not for reward, but we must learn to do them unconditionally. If we are expecting something in return, then yes, we are no different than the Muslim. In fact, our expectations should be that we will suffer. Christ did the most good, and He suffered on the Cross for it. He tells us the same, that we must also bear the Cross. The problem is many Christians do not want to bear the Cross. It's too painful and embarrassing to do. So then, can you really say this Christian "became God" for many to believe in Christ? We seem to lack the courage of God to do what is right in the face of just a little bit of ridicule at the very least. At least in this manner, we would have made impressions on those who struggle to believe in God by seeing God among the weak and humble, not among the strong and mighty.
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We love God so we talk to Him; we talk to Him so that we have a relationship with Him; we have a relationship with Him so that we can learn from Him; we learn from Him so that we can be like Him. That's where I was headed with this (I think).
Anyway, I learned a lot from this thread :)
Thank you (everyone) for your posts!