Hi,
I'd like to ask a question concerning Job.
A priest once said that Job was not only righteous (which he was!) , he was also a good man (which he was); however, his only problem was that he knew that he was good (it was kind of like being self-righteous). So, when the devil envied job, the Lord allowed job to enter to the tribulation(s) in order to lead him into repentance to remove this fault in him.
Would u agree with that?
Thanks!
Comments
I don't know I could be wrong.
I always thought that the tribulations were a test to Job, not a punishment.
I don't know I could be wrong.
My undertsanding was that God allowed Job to be tested simply because He knew that Job was actually "self righteous". To correct this fault in him.
LOL. Iqbal.. It would have been neat if God could have just sent Job a private message than taking all the poor man had!
Hi,
I'd like to ask a question concerning Job.
A priest once said that Job was not only righteous (which he was!) , he was also a good man (which he was); however, his only problem was that he knew that he was good (it was kind of like being self-righteous). So, when the devil envied job, the Lord allowed job to enter to the tribulation(s) in order to lead him into repentance to remove this fault in him.
Would u agree with that?
Thanks!
I don't think that is the reason God allowed the devil to tempt Job. As it says here in the bible:
Job 2:3-6
Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
"Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse You to Your face."
The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
So yes. Job knew he is good and he is a man of God, but he never used that as a reason to act upon. Also he never took it in his mind to take pride of that virtue. As the word the Lord is listed above, the Lord was the One to tell Satan about Job and how good he is. So the Lord was proud of his sons not them by themselves.
I think allowing Satan to tempt Job was for another reason to teach Job somthing, but it wasn't pride which he never had.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67793#msg67793 date=1171908483]
Hi,
I'd like to ask a question concerning Job.
A priest once said that Job was not only righteous (which he was!) , he was also a good man (which he was); however, his only problem was that he knew that he was good (it was kind of like being self-righteous). So, when the devil envied job, the Lord allowed job to enter to the tribulation(s) in order to lead him into repentance to remove this fault in him.
Would u agree with that?
Thanks!
I don't think that is the reason God allowed the devil to tempt Job. As it says here in the bible:
Job 2:3-6
Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
"Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse You to Your face."
The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
So yes. Job knew he is good and he is a man of God, but he never used that as a reason to act upon. Also he never took it in his mind to take pride of that virtue. As the word the Lord is listed above, the Lord was the One to tell Satan about Job and how good he is. So the Lord was proud of his sons not them by themselves.
I think allowing Satan to tempt Job was for another reason to teach Job somthing, but it wasn't pride which he never had.
So , according to you, what reason did the Lord have to allow Job to enter into this great tribulation? According to what i learnt, it was this very "knowing that he was good" was a problem. This is self-righteousness. He was good. Yes, but he knew it.
If that is NOT the case, then what reason exists for him to have been given this tribulation?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5015.msg67840#msg67840 date=1171991659]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67793#msg67793 date=1171908483]
Hi,
I'd like to ask a question concerning Job.
A priest once said that Job was not only righteous (which he was!) , he was also a good man (which he was); however, his only problem was that he knew that he was good (it was kind of like being self-righteous). So, when the devil envied job, the Lord allowed job to enter to the tribulation(s) in order to lead him into repentance to remove this fault in him.
Would u agree with that?
Thanks!
I don't think that is the reason God allowed the devil to tempt Job. As it says here in the bible:
Job 2:3-6
Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
"Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse You to Your face."
The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
So yes. Job knew he is good and he is a man of God, but he never used that as a reason to act upon. Also he never took it in his mind to take pride of that virtue. As the word the Lord is listed above, the Lord was the One to tell Satan about Job and how good he is. So the Lord was proud of his sons not them by themselves.
I think allowing Satan to tempt Job was for another reason to teach Job somthing, but it wasn't pride which he never had.
So , according to you, what reason did the Lord have to allow Job to enter into this great tribulation? According to what i learnt, it was this very "knowing that he was good" was a problem. This is self-righteousness. He was good. Yes, but he knew it.
If that is NOT the case, then what reason exists for him to have been given this tribulation?
I personnally don't know. I am sure if we search more in the books we would know. May be God just wanted to prove Satan wrong since God knew that Job will never leave him. Also we don't have to do or to have somthing wrong in us to be tested.
Also there is nothing wrong with knowing that you are good unless if you use that in a nagative way which here would be pride. You wouldn't call Job a self-righteousness either because he never had pride in himself.
it says in the beginning of the book of Job:
Job 1:1
..This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
He feared God. If he had pride and self-righteousness in him, he wouldn't consider giving credit to God. would he....?!?!?!
A priest said once that Job was led into temptation (or this trial) because God wanted to correct his self-righteousness. In fact, at the end, Job repents and sees his mistake. Anyway, i discussed this issue with some people at Church, and they disagreed.
Then i discovered through someone, that H.H Pope Shenouda said the same thing. However, im waiting for the book on Job by H.H to quote them on.
If it turns out that God allowed Job to enter this tribulation to correct something in him, then wouldnt that make tasbeha.org interesting? I mean, u all were against this idea.
Now, im not saying im right... im saying that I think i'm right UNTIL i get official confirmation (either from Iqbal, or from H,H's books!). Whichever comes first.
Logically speaking, God wouldnt allow someone to enter into tribulations like that UNLESS it was for his/her own good in some way; not just to prove something to the devil!!
Then i discovered through someone, that H.H Pope Shenouda said the same thing. However, im waiting for the book on Job by H.H to quote them on.
I would like to check it out. :).You can't just condemn Tasbeha.org. It's us who are answering not the site in general. You're part of tasbeha.org to. Right.......??
You are totally right. But that doesn't mean that the person have to be doing something wrong. God might do that to teach others of something. God can always use us in many ways for good things for His Name's sake.
We also say in the our Father prayer "...Thy will be done." His will would sometimes be diffecult to understand.
Anyway I am also waiting for Iqbal's response.
God wouldnt go and take from Job his entire livlihood , lock stock and barrel, his health and wealth, and leave him only with his sanity just to teach us everything.
Nope! let me ask u; if Job did nothing wrong and was truely just, then why did he repent for?? He was a great man and a good man, and God even punished his friends for saying things against him. But my understanding was this:
God wanted Job not to be so self righteous. Its as if , when he said :"The Lord has given , the Lord has taken away, blessed be the Name of the Lord", he KNEW it was the good thing to say. Yes, he was a good man, and he knew it. This knowing that he was good, and it being related to self-righteousness was not pleasing to God, as God wanted the "humble/contrited" heart.
THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING - NOW, I COULD BE WRONG, BUT I THINK ITS FAIR TO SAY THAT EVERYPERSON IN ORTHODOX CYBERSAPCE IS EAGERLY AWAITING IQBAL's RESPONSE TO CONFIRM WHO THE WINNER IS!!!!!
Im not condemning Tasbeha.org at all!! what a thing to say!! im saying that if i am right, then it would mean that this discussion has been fruitful! Which would make tasbeha.org great!! I.e. we didn't know something before, and now we are more learned.
Forgive me if i meant somthing else.
Well he did since He always knew that Job will never leave Him. Right now Job is one of the greatest people in the old Testement that have shown us the greatest connection between God and humans. Like you listed above, Job lost all of that, but did he leave his Creator and the One who gave him all these from the beginning. No. one of the greatest verses in the book of Job (as you listed below) is when he said:
Job 1:21-22
"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised."
In other translations it says, "may the name of the Lord be blessed." So in a way, we always bless God through our acts, and also through our tribulations by showing the right way to deal with them. Well he knew that it was the right thing to do not only the good. Also he repented here:
Job 42:1-6
1 Then Job replied to the Lord: 2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. 3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' 5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."
for thinking that God will not hear his prayers after what happend to him. He said "I spoke of things I did not understand," which ment that at some point he dispised God and His power. Therefore he repented for that.
The only thing that i would really want to know from you, Vassilios is how can you prove that he is self-righteousness?? ?? ??? You're right, i am waiting to.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67852#msg67852 date=1172009429]
Im not condemning Tasbeha.org at all!! what a thing to say!! im saying that if i am right, then it would mean that this discussion has been fruitful! Which would make tasbeha.org great!! I.e. we didn't know something before, and now we are more learned.
Forgive me if i meant somthing else.
Well he did since He always knew that Job will never leave Him. Right now Job is one of the greatest people in the old Testement that have shown us the greatest connection between God and humans. Like you listed above, Job lost all of that, but did he leave his Creator and the One who gave him all these from the beginning. No. one of the greatest verses in the book of Job (as you listed below) is when he said:
Job 1:21-22
"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised."
In other translations it says, "may the name of the Lord be blessed." So in a way, we always bless God through our acts, and also through our tribulations by showing the right way to deal with them. Well he knew that it was the right thing to do not only the good. Also he repented here:
Job 42:1-6
1 Then Job replied to the Lord: 2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. 3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' 5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."
for thinking that God will not hear his prayers after what happend to him. He said "I spoke of things I did not understand," which ment that at some point he dispised God and His power. Therefore he repented for that.
The only thing that i would really want to know from you, Vassilios is how can you prove that he is self-righteousness?? ?? ??? You're right, i am waiting to.
Mina Im SOO TICKED OFF RIGHT NOW. I THOUGHT THE SAME AS EVERYONE HERE (AND YOU!) and then some sunday school servant told me that it was because Job was self righteous. Then a Priest said it, an then someone else said that even the Pope said that Job was self righteous. Then AS SOON AS I SAY IT, EVERYONE DISAGREES!!
THE WORST PART OF IT ALL: I couldnt even care less. Its not as if Job owes me any land or animals he got, I just wanna know what the truth is.
Mina Im SOO TICKED OFF RIGHT NOW. I THOUGHT THE SAME AS EVERYONE HERE (AND YOU!) and then some sunday school servant told me that it was because Job was self righteous. Then a Priest said it, an then someone else said that even the Pope said that Job was self righteous. Then AS SOON AS I SAY IT, EVERYONE DISAGREES!!
THE WORST PART OF IT ALL: I couldnt even care less. Its not as if Job owes me any land or animals he got, I just wanna know what the truth is.
well ask for a proof. also that book of HH and hopfully Iqbal's response.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67858#msg67858 date=1172013180]
Mina Im SOO TICKED OFF RIGHT NOW. I THOUGHT THE SAME AS EVERYONE HERE (AND YOU!) and then some sunday school servant told me that it was because Job was self righteous. Then a Priest said it, an then someone else said that even the Pope said that Job was self righteous. Then AS SOON AS I SAY IT, EVERYONE DISAGREES!!
THE WORST PART OF IT ALL: I couldnt even care less. Its not as if Job owes me any land or animals he got, I just wanna know what the truth is.
well ask for a proof. also that book of HH and hopfully Iqbal's response.
Here we are, waiting for the 2nd coming of Iqbal, in that awesome and glorious moment that he will answer our questions. Us, the miserable sinners.
When will he come, O my soul, to answer this so simple question?
KINDS OF FAITH
There is a great difference between two kinds of faith:
theoretical faith and practical faith.
1. The Theoretical Faith
It is an intellectual or philosophical faith. It is just the intellectual conviction in the existence of God and in the existence of unseen matters without their influence on life.
There is a saying that proves that the devils have this kind of faith. Then Saint James says about the dead faith, which is with no deeds "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even
the demons believe--and tremble!" (James 2:19). The book of Job gives us an evidence to that point because the conversation between God and Satan proves this theoretical faith, then Satan
says to the Lord "Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" (Job 1:9-11). When Satan took permission from God to act, he went to work against Job, and in the second time Satan told the Lord "Stretch
out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" (Job 2:5).
Hence Satan believes theoretically that, that is God, and that He is the one who blessed the work of Job, and He is able to strike what he has, and to strike his flesh and bones. Every expression
coming out of Job against God is considered a curse towards God. Never the less Satan was fighting the kingdom of God and God's children, and he still does.
The theoretical faith of Satan which Job spoke about is a dead faith according to what the apostle said "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Thus if faith without deeds is dead, then
what is the faith that is loaded with bad deeds opposing every goodness.
The theoretical faith is easy. How easy is it to prove the existence of God with the intellectual proofs and the many evidences, the most important is however the practical faith.
_______________________________
i got the above from the below link
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/faith/index.html
Book titled...LIFE OF FAITH BY H. H. POPE SHENOUDA III
btw im not sure if i answered ur question or not but i didnt really read through what i have just posted but will do later sorry and sorry im not iqbal :P
Well, that was interesting! However, it still doesn't answer why God allowed Job to enter into tribulation?
Let's say that I envied someone that was so good, would God go and destroy their life and take all they had to make me feel good? or perhaps not to make me feel good, but to prove something to the one who was being envied?
What the Priest said was this:
God tested Job for his own good. Job was self righteous, and so the Lord wished to correct this in him. The priest said:
Suffering and tribulation are God's way of correcting you. For example,
to make bread, you start off with dough in which you need yeast. Yeast in the old testament ressembled sin.
You put the dough into the oven to make it into bread. You kill the yeast in doing so, yet when it is cooked, it becomes bread, worthy to be put on the alter and made into the body of Christ. (which is us).
So, he used this example to explain with Job. Job, for the life of him, apparently, couldn't see what he had done wrong to be living in this anguish and torment. He himself used the term "Nightmare".
Elihu rebukes Job's friends but then tells Job about "Self Righteousness". God then talks to Job and tells him what he doesn't know. Its like Iqbal a bit humbing me with his knowledge.
But that's exactly what God did. It even says so. God humbled Job with what He didn't know. All the tribulations Job went through was a way of making him talk to God for God to humble him. Then Job repents for his pride. That's exactly what the Bible says.
So, all this, would mean, to a mediocre and average intelligence like myself that Job , although being a RIGHTEOUS, GOOD MAN, he still had some pride. When his spirit was broken, and he prayed to God, God's answer to him revealed to Job his pride.
Now, im still NOT saying im right... im saying that its not fair that everyone thinks I'm wrong when i just heard Abouna say the same thing.
If I am right, however, can i get 5 stars , or at least 4 near my name?
However, it still doesn't answer why God allowed Job to enter into tribulation?
John 9:1-3 (NKJV) says: God did not allow this man to be born blind due to a sin comitted by his parents or himself. Rather it was in order to make the grace and power of Christ manifest when he received healing from Him.
Job can be seen in the same way. God did not allow Job to suffer because of a sin he himself had comitted, but rather to make him an example to others of patience and faith in God's grace.
Manifest and do what ???
Nope! Besides, i heard u singing those lame protestant songs. Don't deny it. U liked them. Im not taking anyone seriously who liked singing to the lyrics of "I wanna touch u, i wanna feel u, i wanna SEE your face...."
Admit it.. u liked it!
Orthodox 11 : Look man, ask Fr. Chrystomos - im 100% sure he knows. Tell him also u were tempted in singing those songs also. Ask for forgiveness.
Oh u know what?? A few of my mates from Church went to the Greek Monastery in Essex. Did u see them?? They were there for 1 week!
What's so strange is that the girls that went were the ones that liked singing that stuff. The next time u see them, please please tell them how lucky they are to have the tasbeha, the agpeya, the bible even... and that they really don't need them - especially in the Orthodox Church..
Cheers
And thus assume that your question stems from why do the righteous suffer. Suffering may sometimes be allowed in our lives to purify, test, teach or strengthen the soul.
Job is indeed brought to repentance (42:6). This repentance is not from sins which have caused his suffering. Job’s repentance is not from sins which have caused his suffering. Job’s repentance is from the sin of not handling his suffering in the right way. He is repenting for questioning God and demanding an explanation. All Job knew was the suffering, he was not aware of what happened with God and Satan. This relates to our lives today that the key is not to question WHY but how we cope with the given scenario/situation.
Then we move onto the debate with Job’s friends. Job's 3 friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, come to comfort him and to discuss his suffereings. They insist his suffering is punishment for sin in his life. Job, though, remains devoted to God through all of this and contends that his life has not been one of sin. A fourth man, Elihu, tells Job he needs to humble himself and submit to God's use of trials to purify his life. Job does not believe he has done anything to warrant his suffering, whereas his friends emphasize this unconfessed sin (self righteous theory??). Finally, Job questions God Himself and learns valuable lessons about the sovereignty of God and his need to totally trust in the Lord. Job is then restored to health, happiness and prosperity beyond his earlier state.
Very well written and explained - by the way.
You've definately mentioned some good points that will be valid regardless which theory is correct:
That Job questioned God's actions.
I don't like the idea that within our Church we have priests and deacons and sunday school teachers all differing on a book. I hate that. I don't care really who's right. I just need an official answer, so i can move on in life, and put the past behind me.
Orthodox11 has definately lost the plot. Minagir, and Kerestina are close. Orthodox11 has given the worst answer.
He was tempted to sing protestant "love" songs in Church. I saw it. Of course such behaviour will have an impact on one's spiritual life. I just hope, and pray with all my heart, that i never walk into a Friday meeting and find them singing nursery rhymes like "Bah Bah black sheep" - it sounds drastic, but it does seem they are going in that direction.
He was tempted to sing protestant "love" songs in Church. I saw it. Of course such behaviour will have an impact on one's spiritual life. I just hope, and pray with all my heart, that i never walk into a Friday meeting and find them singing nursery rhymes like "Bah Bah black sheep" - it sounds drastic, but it does seem they are going in that direction.
who are we to judge......
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67880#msg67880 date=1172064158]
No, one sec Orthodox11 : The man born blind was born blind so that God could manifest Himself. However, Job was born fine. So, you're saying that God took everything Job had so He could also manifest Himself also??
Manifest and do what ???
That goes back to my point where i said the God can use us through tribulations to produce somthing big.
Also manifest a lesson for his friends as kerestina mentions. Also don't forget that some people who were fed everyday by Job, went against him and said the same thing his friends did.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5015.msg67882#msg67882 date=1172065961]
ok, ive slighly altered my opinoin............Job was not punished or suffered for being self righteous, only God knows why...........but he repented because of the way he was defending himself thus being self righteous as demonstrated in his reponses to his friends......ive found this quite an interesting read actually
Again, self-rightouesness. When was he self-righteous while he was rich??? please tell me when. He might of been when his friends were talking to him and that was normal because he had the right to since they were just repuking him. As i see it, that's like the only time he can be called self-righteous!!!
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67883#msg67883 date=1172067179]
That Job questioned God's actions.
That's where he had to repent as I listed the verse in previous replys. Well every person have his own explaination. Mostly there isn't a wrong and a right one as long as it doesn't counterdict our faith in general.
It sounds like you've found a compromise to this situation. There is no right/no wrong, so long as it doesnt contradict our belief.
But I STILL disagree... here's why:
From what u said, it implies that his only problem was that he questioned God's actions? God does many things, and asking Him why isnt SOOO bad.. ?!
Is it?!
So, the logical conclusion to what u r saying is: God put Job in all that tribulation SIMPLY to see what questions he would come up with, and then teach him all that for asking questions. Oh man... Listen, with all due respect, i have a very sarcastic comment to add after reading that, but I won't because its lent.
Mina, we have a loving God.. not one that will take away someone's family in the hope of the person asking "why God did u take my family away" , and when they do ask, then God will teach them a good lesson for even asking in the first place....
Mina!! Honestly!! lol :D
As for the protestant songs ; Orthodox11 is a really good friend of mine, so i was just teasing him. Don't worry, he didnt look happy either when they were singing "I want to touch u, i want to see you, ..." songs...
lol
For the record, the people that do sing that are amazing Christians. Its just the song(s) are really something out of the 60's pop music.
So, the logical conclusion to what u r saying is: God put Job in all that tribulation SIMPLY to see what questions he would come up with, and then teach him all that for asking questions. Oh man... Listen, with all due respect, i have a very sarcastic comment to add after reading that, but I won't because its lent.
I have said before that God's will is just sometimes hard to understand.
pm me with the comment. He took it away(everything), but what He did after??!!
This:
Job 42:10-end
10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring. 12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. 16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so he died, old and full of years.
No, one sec Orthodox11 : The man born blind was born blind so that God could manifest Himself. However, Job was born fine. So, you're saying that God took everything Job had so He could also manifest Himself also??
I already said that in the post. The man was born blind so that God could manifest His grace by healing him.
Job suffered so that he could become an example to others of patience, endurance, and unconditional love for God. ok.........sure ::)
i definately know one thing:
Orthodox11 has definately lost the plot. Minagir, and Kerestina are close. Orthodox11 has given the worst answer.
Maybe the worst, but it is patristic.
You mean you heard this from one of the Church fathers??
Oh dear!
Hang on - how can God take everything a man has just to show us patience and endurance????!!!!
It doesnt make sense. God wouldn't hurt anyone in order to teach or prove to us something. Job lived through a nightmare!
Kris, I just checked, the Pope DID say that it was due to Job being self righteous. if your answer is patristic, and my answer is patristic, then i suggest we add both answers together, cut it down the middle and share it equally.
This was my entire argument as to why we should be ONE according to teaching. If we become one church, and we have different patristic teachings, then surely there has to be some accordance between the Churches further to dogma.
This was my entire argument as to why we should be ONE according to teaching. If we become one church, and we have different patristic teachings, then surely there has to be some accordance between the Churches further to dogma.
How about that Jesus Christ is the Son of God!!!!
Let's find a compromise. I don't know the answer. I know Orthodox11 is surely right also (he's not only very Orthodox, but a guru in Theology, for those that didn't know).
How is it that 2 different churches being orthodox can have such opposite views on the same book?
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5015.msg67882#msg67882 date=1172065961]
ok, ive slighly altered my opinoin............Job was not punished or suffered for being self righteous, only God knows why...........but he repented because of the way he was defending himself thus being self righteous as demonstrated in his reponses to his friends......ive found this quite an interesting read actually
Again, self-rightouesness. When was he self-righteous while he was rich??? please tell me when. He might of been when his friends were talking to him and that was normal because he had the right to since they were just repuking him. As i see it, that's like the only time he can be called self-righteous!!!
I didn’t say Job was self righteous when he was rich but during his tribulations which was seen during the debates with his friends. They tried to find a fault in him in an attempt to explain his suffering but Job defended himself and didn’t think he deserved to be punished to such a degree. The reasons for Job’s suffering is outlined in the first chapter.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67890#msg67890 date=1172083021]
From what u said, it implies that his only problem was that he questioned God's actions? God does many things, and asking Him why isn’t SOOO bad.. ?!
Is it?!
So you believe God owes you an explanation for all the suffering and heartache we endure.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67890#msg67890 date=1172083021]
we have a loving God.. not one that will take away someone's family in the hope of the person asking "why God did u take my family away" , and when they do ask, then God will teach them a good lesson for even asking in the first place....
Indeed we do have incredibly loving and compassionate God but we are sinners, we are human. One doesn’t learn unless they experience pain, suffering etc. therefore you believe that God would take away all from Job due to his self righteous? Does being self righteous really justify such tribulations that Job experienced.