Im not saying God owes me an explanation; but asking Him "why" He allowed certain bad things to happen (to others, or myself) means to you that I'm self righteous? Perhaps by asking,God can talk to us through others, through the Bible, through anything He wishes....
But surely asking doesnt mean i'm self righteous. Im sure that He allows us to go through tribulations as He loves to test His saints. Non? I mean, He allows us to go through sufferings to purify us from any deceit, hypocisy and self righteousness. These are the words of the Pope (as far as I know).
Its hard to accept that "God allows" us to suffer - but it makes more sense that He wishes to test our faith in such suffering than to make us suffer and then by us asking why we are suffering, all of a sudden we are then "self righteous" for asking.
Many people will come to God and ask "WHY DID GOD ALLOW THESE BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN IN MY LIFE!" - and the only thing you can say is: "DON'T ASK! ITS A SIN TO ASK!" ??
In most cases, God doesn't wish bad things to happen; but He allows them because, through them, it can change and correct certain things in us that He disapproves of.
Im not saying God owes me an explanation; but asking Him "why" He allowed certain bad things to happen (to others, or myself) means to you that I'm self righteous? Perhaps by asking,God can talk to us through others, through the Bible, through anything He wishes....
But surely asking doesnt mean i'm self righteous. Im sure that He allows us to go through tribulations as He loves to test His saints. Non? I mean, He allows us to go through sufferings to purify us from any deceit, hypocisy and self righteousness. These are the words of the Pope (as far as I know).
no, you have just confused the two concepts, he demonstrtaed self righteousness by the way he was defeding himself before his friends and he repented due to his questioning of God's will. Job struggled to cope with his situation as any one would. questioning doesnt equate to self righteousness BUT by asking WHY, you are clearly seeking an explanation for the Lord's doings
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67915#msg67915 date=1172145641] Its hard to accept that "God allows" us to suffer - but it makes more sense that He wishes to test our faith in such suffering than to make us suffer and then by us asking why we are suffering, all of a sudden we are then "self righteous" for asking.
Many people will come to God and ask "WHY DID GOD ALLOW THESE BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN IN MY LIFE!" - and the only thing you can say is: "DON'T ASK! ITS A SIN TO ASK!" ??
lol, it is inevitable for one to question id lie if i say i didnt but how is it benefiting you in your spiritual life, are these questions drawing you closer or further from God Job 28 emphasises the idea that true wisdom is not a matter of knowing WHY suffering happens rather, true wisdom is a matter of knowledge the God who knows why suffering happens.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67915#msg67915 date=1172145641] In most cases, God doesn't wish bad things to happen; but He allows them because, through them, it can change and correct certain things in us that He disapproves of.
true God doesnt want to see his children in pain but how else do we open our eyes, we learn through our experiences and sufferings. through pain we grow and learn more about our sselves
You said he demonstrated self rightouesness by how he was defending himself before his friends? what's wrong with that? I don't get this point of view.
What i understood was this:
When he said "The Lord has given , the Lord has taken away , blessed be the Name of the Lord". Not only was that the right thing to say, but he KNEW himself it was the right thing to say. So, God tested him in all this to show him that he in fact doesnt know everything. lol
Ouch!!
Kerestina... look - im not really of a particular opinion, but that's what the Pope said (not the above phrase) but the pope said :"God allowed Job to be tested to correct his self righteousness".
Either way, i find this situation very worrying. Even if the Pope was right - it worries me. If what i heard was wrong, and you and Minagir are both right, it still worries me.
ANd the bad thing is this: THere's Jesus Christ telling us :"Do not worry, for worrying cannot add one cubit to your stature".
Man, God must be laughing at us... This whole situation makes me worry!! God called the devil and told him :"HAVE YOU CONSIDERED MY SERVANT JOB" - so God wanted to test his servant Job. Why? Well - One theory is that it was to correct something in Job (which worries me) and the other theory was to "teach everyone else about suffering" - which really worries me.
Above all this, i hear God's voice in the Bible of this sunday saying "Do not worry".
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67912#msg67912 date=1172135461] How is it that 2 different churches being orthodox can have such opposite views on the same book?
I can't remember exactly which Father gave the interpretation I brought up, so I'm not sure if he was a Chalcedonian or pre-Chalcedonian Saint.
But in any case, you will often find a great variety of complementary (not contradictory) interpretations among the Fathers as to the meaning of a particular verse. For example, St. John Chrysostom is often very literal in his interpretations, as was normal among the Antiochian school, whereas saints like Cyril of Alexandria, being of the Alexandrian school, will often interpret a certain passage in a more symbolic or noetic manner.
The Scriptures have layers and layers of meaning, and there is no reason why you cannot have two different interpretations of the same saying or the same event without the two being mutually exclusive.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67919#msg67919 date=1172152571] I don't particularly like the idea that God just did that because he wanted to teach us anything.
Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean its not the reason ;)
God knows what He's doing. It might not seem obvious to us, or even right, but that's because we don't always see the bigger picture.
God allowed Job to suffer for no other reason other than to teach us something? So, that's why He gave Job more than what he had in the beginning?
Huh?
Im just paraphrasing to be sure i get your point of view.
What then can we learn from Job: its best to love God and make sure that He gives you nothing so that He doesnt take anything away from you to teach those around you any lessons.
God allowed Job to suffer for no other reason other than to teach us something? So, that's why He gave Job more than what he had in the beginning? Huh?
Well i guess not only to teach us somthing but also to teach him somthing (as the your confirmassion of the self-righteous matter). Also when you do good to God or to anyone, you'll get your wage on earth and up in heaven (same as punishment). So here Job got his wage on earth and his heavnely is yet to be seen on the last day.
What then can we learn from Job: its best to love God and make sure that He gives you nothing so that He doesnt take anything away from you to teach those around you any lessons.
The Life of Repentance and Purity BY His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
Job's problem was that he was a blameless, upright man, and he knew about himself that he was blameless and upright. For this reason, he fell into self righteousness. He was, as the Bible said: "righteous in his own eyes" (Job 32:1). God then kept purifying him through the temptation, until he said: "I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know" (Job 42:3). It is very easy for a small point to drag many problems. The Lord also placed His hand on the wound which troubled Job. The righteous Job was: "blameless and upright", by the Lord's witness of him (Job 1:8), "there is none like him on the earth". He was very compassionate towards the poor, and he rescued the weak from their oppressors. He was: "eyes to the blind, and...feet to the lame" (Job 29). In brief, he was a righteous man. What then was the point of weakness? He was righteous, and knew about himself that he was righteous. So self-righteousness troubled him. (Job 32:1). Therefore, the Lord dispossessed him of everything. his children and riches, his health and honour, and from people's respect to him. He had nothing left. He entered into reproof with the Lord. Finally he said: "I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know ...I will question you, and you shall answer Me ...Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:3-6). When Job reached the dust and ashes, he got rid of his self-righteousness. God then lifted up His temptation from him. He became more righteous than he was. He was also victorious over the weak point. Job also did not know that he was being fought by self-righteousness. Therefore, he entered into a long discussion with his three friends, and his complaints to God Himself increased, he said to Him: "You know that I am not wicked, and there is no one who can deliver from Your hand" (Job 10:7). "But He knows the way that I take; when He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold" (Job 23:10). "He was righteous in his own eyes" (Job 32:1). The matter needed God to send Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, to reveal to Job himself, and for God to talk and explain to him, until Job finally reached contrition and said to the Lord: "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth" (Job 40:4). He also said. "I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know" (Job 42:3).
Hang on - how can God take everything a man has just to show us patience and endurance????!!!!
In the book Return to God by H. H. Pope Shenouda III, it states that Job was an example of patience (Job 5:11)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5015.msg67891#msg67891 date=1172083802] [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67890#msg67890 date=1172083021] Mina, we have a loving God.. not one that will take away someone's family in the hope of the person asking "why God did u take my family away" , and when they do ask, then God will teach them a good lesson for even asking in the first place....
He took it away(everything), but what He did after??!!
"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away" (Job 1:21). Return to God and He will restore everything to you.
Hang on - how can God take everything a man has just to show us patience and endurance????!!!!
In the book Return to God by H. H. Pope Shenouda III, it states that Job was an example of patience (Job 5:11)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5015.msg67891#msg67891 date=1172083802] [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67890#msg67890 date=1172083021] Mina, we have a loving God.. not one that will take away someone's family in the hope of the person asking "why God did u take my family away" , and when they do ask, then God will teach them a good lesson for even asking in the first place....
He took it away(everything), but what He did after??!!
"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away" (Job 1:21). Return to God and He will restore everything to you.
Hi Kerestina, So, basically, you are confirming that Job was in fact self righteous?! Well, the Pope's book speaks for itself! It means Job was self righteous!
Comments
Im not saying God owes me an explanation; but asking Him "why" He allowed certain bad things to happen (to others, or myself) means to you that I'm self righteous? Perhaps by asking,God can talk to us through others, through the Bible, through anything He wishes....
But surely asking doesnt mean i'm self righteous. Im sure that He allows us to go through tribulations as He loves to test His saints. Non? I mean, He allows us to go through sufferings to purify us from any deceit, hypocisy and self righteousness. These are the words of the Pope (as far as I know).
Its hard to accept that "God allows" us to suffer - but it makes more sense that He wishes to test our faith in such suffering than to make us suffer and then by us asking why we are suffering, all of a sudden we are then "self righteous" for asking.
Many people will come to God and ask "WHY DID GOD ALLOW THESE BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN IN MY LIFE!" - and the only thing you can say is: "DON'T ASK! ITS A SIN TO ASK!"
??
In most cases, God doesn't wish bad things to happen; but He allows them because, through them, it can change and correct certain things in us that He disapproves of.
Im not saying God owes me an explanation; but asking Him "why" He allowed certain bad things to happen (to others, or myself) means to you that I'm self righteous? Perhaps by asking,God can talk to us through others, through the Bible, through anything He wishes....
But surely asking doesnt mean i'm self righteous. Im sure that He allows us to go through tribulations as He loves to test His saints. Non? I mean, He allows us to go through sufferings to purify us from any deceit, hypocisy and self righteousness. These are the words of the Pope (as far as I know).
no, you have just confused the two concepts, he demonstrtaed self righteousness by the way he was defeding himself before his friends and he repented due to his questioning of God's will. Job struggled to cope with his situation as any one would. questioning doesnt equate to self righteousness BUT by asking WHY, you are clearly seeking an explanation for the Lord's doings
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67915#msg67915 date=1172145641]
Its hard to accept that "God allows" us to suffer - but it makes more sense that He wishes to test our faith in such suffering than to make us suffer and then by us asking why we are suffering, all of a sudden we are then "self righteous" for asking.
Many people will come to God and ask "WHY DID GOD ALLOW THESE BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN IN MY LIFE!" - and the only thing you can say is: "DON'T ASK! ITS A SIN TO ASK!"
??
lol, it is inevitable for one to question id lie if i say i didnt but how is it benefiting you in your spiritual life, are these questions drawing you closer or further from God
Job 28 emphasises the idea that true wisdom is not a matter of knowing WHY suffering happens rather, true wisdom is a matter of knowledge the God who knows why suffering happens.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67915#msg67915 date=1172145641]
In most cases, God doesn't wish bad things to happen; but He allows them because, through them, it can change and correct certain things in us that He disapproves of.
true God doesnt want to see his children in pain but how else do we open our eyes, we learn through our experiences and sufferings. through pain we grow and learn more about our sselves
I just got your message.
You said he demonstrated self rightouesness by how he was defending himself before his friends? what's wrong with that? I don't get this point of view.
What i understood was this:
When he said "The Lord has given , the Lord has taken away , blessed be the Name of the Lord". Not only was that the right thing to say, but he KNEW himself it was the right thing to say. So, God tested him in all this to show him that he in fact doesnt know everything. lol
Ouch!!
Kerestina... look - im not really of a particular opinion, but that's what the Pope said (not the above phrase) but the pope said :"God allowed Job to be tested to correct his self righteousness".
Either way, i find this situation very worrying. Even if the Pope was right - it worries me. If what i heard was wrong, and you and Minagir are both right, it still worries me.
ANd the bad thing is this: THere's Jesus Christ telling us :"Do not worry, for worrying cannot add one cubit to your stature".
Man, God must be laughing at us... This whole situation makes me worry!! God called the devil and told him :"HAVE YOU CONSIDERED MY SERVANT JOB" - so God wanted to test his servant Job. Why? Well - One theory is that it was to correct something in Job (which worries me) and the other theory was to "teach everyone else about suffering" - which really worries me.
Above all this, i hear God's voice in the Bible of this sunday saying "Do not worry".
yeah, right!
LOL
How is it that 2 different churches being orthodox can have such opposite views on the same book?
I can't remember exactly which Father gave the interpretation I brought up, so I'm not sure if he was a Chalcedonian or pre-Chalcedonian Saint.
But in any case, you will often find a great variety of complementary (not contradictory) interpretations among the Fathers as to the meaning of a particular verse. For example, St. John Chrysostom is often very literal in his interpretations, as was normal among the Antiochian school, whereas saints like Cyril of Alexandria, being of the Alexandrian school, will often interpret a certain passage in a more symbolic or noetic manner.
The Scriptures have layers and layers of meaning, and there is no reason why you cannot have two different interpretations of the same saying or the same event without the two being mutually exclusive.
How r u? I havent seen u in ages.
Why did God test Job then if Job was so good, and did nothing wrong??
I don't particularly like the idea that God just did that because he wanted to teach us anything.
I don't particularly like the idea that God just did that because he wanted to teach us anything.
Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean its not the reason ;)
God knows what He's doing. It might not seem obvious to us, or even right, but that's because we don't always see the bigger picture.
God allowed Job to suffer for no other reason other than to teach us something? So, that's why He gave Job more than what he had in the beginning?
Huh?
Im just paraphrasing to be sure i get your point of view.
What then can we learn from Job: its best to love God and make sure that He gives you nothing so that He doesnt take anything away from you to teach those around you any lessons.
Kris,
God allowed Job to suffer for no other reason other than to teach us something? So, that's why He gave Job more than what he had in the beginning?
Huh?
Well i guess not only to teach us somthing but also to teach him somthing (as the your confirmassion of the self-righteous matter).
Also when you do good to God or to anyone, you'll get your wage on earth and up in heaven (same as punishment). So here Job got his wage on earth and his heavnely is yet to be seen on the last day. Trust fully in God who created you.
i guess that can summerize the whole story.
BY His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
Job's problem was that he was a blameless, upright man, and he knew about himself that he was blameless and upright. For this reason, he fell into self righteousness. He was, as the Bible said:
"righteous in his own eyes" (Job 32:1). God then kept purifying him through the temptation, until he said: "I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know" (Job 42:3). It is very easy for a small point to drag many problems.
The Lord also placed His hand on the wound which troubled Job.
The righteous Job was: "blameless and upright", by the Lord's witness of him (Job 1:8), "there is none like him on the earth". He was very compassionate towards the poor, and he rescued
the weak from their oppressors. He was: "eyes to the blind, and...feet to the lame" (Job 29). In brief, he was a righteous man. What then was the point of weakness?
He was righteous, and knew about himself that he was righteous. So self-righteousness troubled him. (Job 32:1).
Therefore, the Lord dispossessed him of everything. his children and riches, his health and honour, and from people's respect to him. He had nothing left. He entered into reproof with the Lord. Finally he said: "I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know ...I will question you, and you shall answer Me ...Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:3-6). When Job reached the dust and ashes, he got rid of his self-righteousness. God then lifted up His temptation from him. He became more righteous than he was. He was also victorious over the weak point.
Job also did not know that he was being fought by self-righteousness.
Therefore, he entered into a long discussion with his three friends, and his complaints to God Himself increased, he said to Him: "You know that I am not wicked, and there is no one who can deliver from Your hand" (Job 10:7). "But He knows the way that I take; when He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold" (Job 23:10). "He was righteous in his own eyes" (Job 32:1). The matter needed God to send Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, to reveal to Job himself, and for God to talk and explain to him, until Job finally reached contrition and said to the Lord: "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth" (Job 40:4). He also said. "I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know" (Job 42:3).
Hang on - how can God take everything a man has just to show us patience and endurance????!!!!
In the book Return to God by H. H. Pope Shenouda III, it states that Job was an example of patience (Job 5:11)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5015.msg67891#msg67891 date=1172083802]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67890#msg67890 date=1172083021]
Mina, we have a loving God.. not one that will take away someone's family in the hope of the person asking "why God did u take my family away" , and when they do ask, then God will teach them a good lesson for even asking in the first place....
He took it away(everything), but what He did after??!!
"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away" (Job 1:21). Return to God and He will restore everything to
you.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67905#msg67905 date=1172100337]
Hang on - how can God take everything a man has just to show us patience and endurance????!!!!
In the book Return to God by H. H. Pope Shenouda III, it states that Job was an example of patience (Job 5:11)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5015.msg67891#msg67891 date=1172083802]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5015.msg67890#msg67890 date=1172083021]
Mina, we have a loving God.. not one that will take away someone's family in the hope of the person asking "why God did u take my family away" , and when they do ask, then God will teach them a good lesson for even asking in the first place....
He took it away(everything), but what He did after??!!
"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away" (Job 1:21). Return to God and He will restore everything to
you.
Hi Kerestina,
So, basically, you are confirming that Job was in fact self righteous?! Well, the Pope's book speaks for itself! It means Job was self righteous!
Regards