Hello,
Im not sure where this topic should go, but a lady in Paris asked me if we are allowed to use contraception in the Coptic Orthodox Church. To be honest with you, i said yes. But, then, i've never really asked a priest about it. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
(This will KILL YOU guys laughing actually - this was a lady I met in an Anti-Abortion parade organised by the Catholic Church in paris) :
I told her : well, we are allowed to use contraception in mariage,but we cannot have sex outside mariage.
She was a catholic activist against abortion, adn she said :"Oh.. in the Catholic Church, we can have sex if u love someone, but we cannot use contraception" - HAHAHAHHA
HAHAHAHHA
HAHAHAHA
She was SOO surprised that I told her that we cannot have sex outside marriage!! And even MORE shocked that we can use contraception INSIDE marriage. HAHAHA...
But i'm only assuming this cos I have friends who are copts and that are married who told me... but i'm not sure.
Also, can you lust after your wife?? Is that possible?? That was another question some guy told me. Actually,it was a priest from the British Orthodox Church. He said "Lust in Marriage with your wife is wrong".
I thought that once she's your wife, how can what u do together be lust?? its all holy after that - isnt it???
Comments
Hello,
Im not sure where this topic should go, but a lady in Paris asked me if we are allowed to use contraception in the Coptic Orthodox Church. To be honest with you, i said yes. But, then, i've never really asked a priest about it. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
(This will KILL YOU guys laughing actually - this was a lady I met in an Anti-Abortion parade organised by the Catholic Church in paris) :
I told her : well, we are allowed to use contraception in mariage,but we cannot have sex outside mariage.
She was a catholic activist against abortion, adn she said :"Oh.. in the Catholic Church, we can have sex if u love someone, but we cannot use contraception" - HAHAHAHHA
HAHAHAHHA
HAHAHAHA
She was SOO surprised that I told her that we cannot have sex outside marriage!! And even MORE shocked that we can use contraception INSIDE marriage. HAHAHA...
lol...u have to love the way catholics think.......... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D the answer is that yes and no. yes when you really can't or don't have the prober things to take care of a child.
no.....i guess for other reason,.
someone asked HH once and what he said was get the kids u want first and than you can abstane from conception after. he said that the ways of Contraception can resolve in a permemnat state which u wont get any kids at all.
ur trully rit.
That's pretty smart advice.
Yes, on the contraception part, that's correct; unlike the Catholics we take a more pastoral line; what is the use of encouraging people to have more children than they really want; that's not very sensible. Yet again, the Coptic Church shows its commonsense and compassion, and the Pope's remark shows what great pastor he really is; we're blessed in him.
I wonder which of the BOC priests it was said that about lust - I know most of them and think I can guess! What he meant was that to make your wife an object - which is what lust is - is never right. Lust is about forgetting that your wife is a child of God and regarding her as an object for gratification - which is wrong. What is, of course, fine, is to think your wife is totally gorgeous and that you're a lucky guy to be married to someone with those looks - those cooking skills - and the sense to see what a great guy you are. It is called self-delusion, but that's normal, not sinful!
At least that's how it seems to me - but what do I know?
In Christ,
John
Perhaps she meant if "u love someone" and be holy married in Church?
Ok then what she says: can have **x while no contraception & no abortion
What will be expected? More generations of "girl-mothers" with their kids.
More problems. Lord have mercy on us.
Q&A: What is the orthodox view on birth control?
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=23&frommostpopular=yes
Vassilios: [glow=yellow,2,300]HAHAHAHHA[/glow] is a natural reaction
Thanks for the link. It shows how the Church has a real pastoral concern for us all. The Catholic position is uncharitable and illogical. Why allow relations before marriage but now permit those in marriage to regulate the size of their family? We all know that in practice in the west most Catholics quietly use contraception, so they are, technically, sinning. That doesn't encourage good practice, surely?
The Coptic Church is more sensible - as so often - and tries to work with us to help us live the most Christian life we can. A good example to other Churches, I think.
In Christ,
Anglian
thanks for bringing this up, i didn't know just how ridiculous the Catholic church can be. ;D :D
I am beginning to get quite worried for you. First your bad experience with your own priest, now this. Still, I guess you can look at the Catholic Church and think 'hey, and I thought it was bad at home!' so to speak. ;)
In Christ,
John
Vas,
thanks for bringing this up, i didn't know just how ridiculous the Catholic church can be. ;D :D
i think your need to be respectful of others/church even if you dont believe what they do...any catholic person exploring this site wud be offended by ur comment
but just think about the concept of what they're doing. And, historically, they have messed up pretty bad.
my apologies.
but just think about the concept of what they're doing. And, historically, they have messed up pretty bad.
i dont deny that but i believe if some one called the orthodox church ridiculous id be onto them...so my point being that the catholics or any other denomintaions will hold true the values they are brought up with and its not for us to comment on but yes its important to understand what they belive as this builds a stronger faith...
Thank you, Kerestina, for reminding us of our duty.
In Christ,
John
Not at all an irrelevant question. I am an English convert, and a member of the British Orthodox Church, which comes under Alexandria.
In Christ,
John
Dear Kerestina,
Not at all an irrelevant question. I am an English convert, and a member of the British Orthodox Church, which comes under Alexandria.
HeCtIc!!!!
btw i believe lust can exist in a marriiage....we've talked about this b4 on anotha thread
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5383.msg71751#msg71751 date=1180714767]
Dear Kerestina,
Not at all an irrelevant question. I am an English convert, and a member of the British Orthodox Church, which comes under Alexandria.
HeCtIc!!!!
btw i believe lust can exist in a marriiage....we've talked about this b4 on anotha thread
Kerestina,
How can lust exist in marriage? Saint Paul says that it is better to marry than to burn in passion (lust). So, then u go off, get married, and you're still in sin!??? How?? Its your wife/husband! THe two bodies have become one.
Thanks for any explanation u can offer.
Cheers,
its ok to love ur wife as a whole and that means her body and personality but what if you then see her as a sexual object that provides pleasures rather than the women you love with all your heart????
why do you think marriages fail?? is it becoz they fall out of love?? or maybe they werent in love?? or maybe it wasnt love at all it was lust........?????
its ok to love ur wife as a whole and that means her body and personality but what if you then see her as a sexual object that provides pleasures rather than the women you love with all your heart????
the whole idea is that it's ok to have lunst to ur wife and in marrage. sex can be a reason for marriage. but to marry to only fillfull ur lust only is a sin. marriage include many responsibelties. to do one you have to include the rest.
H.H. clarified that this was not to say that sex was all there is to marriage but contraceptions are merely so that you do not lust outside of your home..it's better to use contraceptions with your wife than to commit adultery elsewhere. So it does not mean that contraceptions are GOOD, but they are allowed. There is more to it but I cannot recall, but you are free to research it.
And Vassilios is right (for once...lol, I kid); there is no lust in marriage. There can be marriages that are unhealthy because one partner merely married for the goal of sex and not love, but that's not "lusting" for your own spouse per se..
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5383.msg71839#msg71839 date=1180916717]
why do you think marriages fail?? is it becoz they fall out of love?? or maybe they werent in love?? or maybe it wasnt love at all it was lust........?????
its ok to love ur wife as a whole and that means her body and personality but what if you then see her as a sexual object that provides pleasures rather than the women you love with all your heart????
the whole idea is that it's ok to have lunst to ur wife and in marrage. sex can be a reason for marriage. but to marry to only fillfull ur lust only is a sin. marriage include many responsibelties. to do one you have to include the rest.
Hi Mina,
You're saying that marrying to fullfill your sexual desires is a sin!? I think there's more to a human being than their sexuality, and u marry the person, but sticking to what Saint Paul says:
"Its best to marry than to burn in passion".
WHich means what? That if u have uncontrollable sexual urges, MARRY!!!! How then can it be a sin to marry because you are horny (excuse the term). I don't think a woman would possibly find that attractive or appealing (unless she's as horny as u Mina - let's say for example), but apparently, this is not a sin!!
To live and burn in lust, is a sin. And we agree that lust cannot exist within marriage. You cannot be in lust with something that is already yours. Lusting is desiring something that is not yours.
I think that the argument is that objectifying your partner is lust, and so in that sense lust can exist within a marriage. However, i do not know enough to have a strong opinion on the matter.
I totally disagree. Yes. I agree with your personality, in that i think u are "normal" to think this way, and very gentleman like, but biblically, its wrong (I think!)... because Saint paul says it would be a SIN to prevent your spouse from having sex if he/she wanted to. You body is his and his body is yours. So this phrae from Saint paul nullifies your argument. Within marriage, there is NO lust. The only sin is letting your husband OR Wife BURN in passion because you don't want to have sex with them.
Marriage is a union; because of this -i agree with you here- one partner's body does not belong only to him/her. But, this rule is only applied when both the man and the woman respect each other and love each other. When one partner sees the other as a means to fulfill his/her sexual desire, without acknowledging that his/her partner is a human being with free will, then problems arise.
Lust is not only a desire for that which you cannot have; it is also a selfish desire for that which pleases you, whether you have it or not. Lust is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as "Intense or unrestrained sexual craving."
If, for example, I am married, and I begin to demand sex from my wife whenever i am "horny," as you put it, without consideration for her feelings and her desire, is it not lust? If I only see what I want and feel and not what she wants and feels, am I a good husband? If I were to treat her like this, would she be obliged to follow St. Paul's advice and have sex with me whenever i demanded it? If I had an "unrestrained sexual craving" for my wife and pursued my desire contrary to her wishes or even worse caused her harm, have i not committed a sin of lustfulness?
Well, i was simply voicing what i believe to be the general argument that was given. However, the example you provided doesn't disprove anything.
Marriage is a union; because of this -i agree with you here- one partner's body does not belong only to him/her. But, this rule is only applied when both the man and the woman respect each other and love each other. When one partner sees the other as a means to fulfill his/her sexual desire, without acknowledging that his/her partner is a human being with free will, then problems arise.
Marriage is a union... but this is rule is only applied when both respect and love each other!?
That's not true. Its a union. PERIOD! THe man's body does not belong to him, and the woman's body is not hers. They submit their bodies to one another.
OK.. i like this quote, and it perhaps does you well that u quote it as I understand u better. In marriage one person demanding sex can be selfish if the other doesnt feel the need for it, but as saint paul says: REGARDLESS if u feel the need for it or not,- YOU MAKE YOUR SPOUSE SIN, if he/she requires sex and you do not give it to them. You've made them sin.
So, I still respectfully disagree with u. NO! Its not lust!!! Because she's your wife, its lack of manners... BUT not lust.. No. You will not be a good husband, BUT ITS NOT LUST!! You'll have to learn to give yourselves to one another. SHe will not be a good wife if she leaves u frustrated sexually!!!!! NO! You havet committed a sin!!! She would have committed a sin by leaving u frustrated - sexually!!!
I still respectfully disagree with you!!
Are you then saying that even if it's harmful for her to have sex with me, she should still oblige me because St. Paul said so? If so, I'm afraid you are horribly mistaken. That is simply NOT Christianity!
What I meant about the "rule" was the thing about St. Paul that you mentioned. It only applies as long as the two ppl truly love each other, according to the bible's definition of love.
I still respectfully disagree with you!!
Are you then saying that even if it's harmful for her to have sex with me, she should still oblige me because St. Paul said so? If so, I'm afraid you are horribly mistaken. That is simply NOT Christianity!
Look, if you by having sex with your wife will cause her harm, that's a grave sin. If she's just lazy or tired from your existence and doesnt want to have sex with u, and leaves u horny and frustrated, she is sinning.
But there is no lust in marriage. Having sex with your wife when doing so will cause her harm is not lust - its just plain wicked, and evil.
THere is no lust in marriage!!!
how is tha wife sinning if she doesnt wanna sleep wif her man?? jus becoz they need to sbmit to each otha dun mean that the wife has no voice
ill outline my point better later