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Oniatk enthok o dimas
Hi all, deacons and congregation
I would be most grateful if someone could find me any recording of oniatk enthok o dimas, the hymns of the thief in coptic. I know there is one on this site, by Fr. Isaiah El- Muharraqi, but the introduction is what I really want, rather thean the paralex "ashopi" which is identical to the "ashopi" paralex of "Piepnevma", and this recording is really fuzzy.
thanks to all and pray for me
joe
I would be most grateful if someone could find me any recording of oniatk enthok o dimas, the hymns of the thief in coptic. I know there is one on this site, by Fr. Isaiah El- Muharraqi, but the introduction is what I really want, rather thean the paralex "ashopi" which is identical to the "ashopi" paralex of "Piepnevma", and this recording is really fuzzy.
thanks to all and pray for me
joe
Comments
Hi all, deacons and congregation
I would be most grateful if someone could find me any recording of oniatk enthok o dimas, the hymns of the thief in coptic. I know there is one on this site, by Fr. Isaiah El- Muharraqi, but the introduction is what I really want, rather thean the paralex "ashopi" which is identical to the "ashopi" paralex of "Piepnevma", and this recording is really fuzzy.
thanks to all and pray for me
joe
well there is the recording of the HCOC which is originally from a recording that doesn't provide much words.....and i don't know how in the world did they get the text, cuz it is diffrent from the book.
but we do have another recording.....
GB
Tony
they got the words from the recording but had coptic experts fix the grammar
GB
Tony
well that's what Albair told us. sankss
i am hearing the hymn now.
the guy wanted to know where to lsten to it.. can u plz send ur link?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6425.msg84843#msg84843 date=1207006856]
i am hearing the hymn now.
the guy wanted to know where to lsten to it.. can u plz send ur link?
it's from the new set of HCOC, not online.
Are you sure it is not online at all? I would love to listen to it myself (or if you have got a recording why don't you share it with us at least on our e-mails? I am sure you are not someone who likes hogging up hymns to himself, ARE YOU?)
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Dear minagir,
Are you sure it is not online at all? I would love to listen to it myself (or if you have got a recording why don't you share it with us at least on our e-mails? I am sure you are not someone who likes hogging up hymns to himself, ARE YOU?)
God bless you and pray for us a lot
lol. no am not. well i have the source of the recording. not them but their source of the hymn enhanced a little. but it's home, so give me untill this friday to send you guys a link.
You are a very kind man really. God bless all your efforts.
Pray for us a lot
1) It follows the theme of pascha which is that most hymns have a sad/happy tune like pekethronos/ethvety/tai shory/tishory and so on. Fr. Isaiah's version was not hazayny at all which is a little strange.
2) It was more complete, meaning that the there was an extra part that was not recorded in Fr. Isaiah's version of the hymn.
Lastly, i think the arguement was not about the paralex or the ashopy part; it was about the beginning of the hymn and how Fr. Isaiah's was not much different from pepnevma or oran enshosho. So, i am guessing that these were the reasons why the recorded it this way. It is important to mention that hymns vary from all over the parts of egypt so I do not think that they are saying Fr. Isaiah's is necessarily wrong; only that they believe the recording they found to be more accurate. Hope this answered your question.
P.S. If anyone is interested in hearing this hymn or ANY other hymn they can go to this link and purchase the production: http://www.orthodoxbookstore.org/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1771
GB
Tony
To answer you question minagir, I think albeir chose this source to be more accurate because of the following reasons:
1) It follows the theme of pascha which is that most hymns have a sad/happy tune like pekethronos/ethvety/tai shory/tishory and so on. Fr. Isaiah's version was not hazayny at all which is a little strange.
2) It was more complete, meaning that the there was an extra part that was not recorded in Fr. Isaiah's version of the hymn.
Lastly, i think the arguement was not about the paralex or the ashopy part; it was about the beginning of the hymn and how Fr. Isaiah's was not much different from pepnevma or oran enshosho. So, i am guessing that these were the reasons why the recorded it this way. It is important to mention that hymns vary from all over the parts of egypt so I do not think that they are saying Fr. Isaiah's is necessarily wrong; only that they believe the recording they found to be more accurate. Hope this answered your question.
P.S. If anyone is interested in hearing this hymn or ANY other hymn they can go to this link and purchase the production: http://www.orthodoxbookstore.org/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1771
GB
Tony
well i thought the main issue was the paralex. the first part that Fr. Isaiah say is not much to be spoken about.
pray for me
joe
The introduction py Fr. Isaiah is not the problem - it is part of the beauty of the him, with the contrasting introduction that as Amoussa01 pointed is not 7azayny at all, and the ashopi part of the paralex. Personally I think that Fr. Isaiah's version is more correct, and unless there is a valid reason, HCOC should not be recording solely to give it a more 7azayny feel. But the ashopi bit is not the problem.
well i don't fully agree with you. i just think the two recordings are in fact valid. the other recording, that HCOC have, not really hazaynee as much, but that's the source. also there is actually a part from [coptic]`<rictoc anecty.[/coptic].
As for the HCOC, i just thought that would record the two ways and not be biased towards one. I guess it's just too much to ask for a full protection and preservation, ("To Protect and Preserve")
I am dying to hear that hymn now to share my views with you. I hope that minagir finds a way of sending us the hymn as soon as possible.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
a valid point - but I suppose it is too difficult for every single hymn to have a full preservation of the melismata - the years are many, and every mu'allem makes some alterations, if unknowingly, by even perhaps a hazza this way or that.
I am not talking about little jumps and smal hazza here and there. am talkinga about the full tune of a hymn. I am one of those who KNOWS for a fact that the jumping of word eralier or stoping here and not there is not the difference in ways towards hymns, but rather just a different way the cantor is praying (even though most do, where you'd start saying he's wrong and he's right). there is a huge diffrence between these two ways of thinking.
so whats the point your trying to make?
you said:
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6425.msg84960#msg84960 date=1207124460]
a valid point - but I suppose it is too difficult for every single hymn to have a full preservation of the melismata - the years are many, and every mu'allem makes some alterations, if unknowingly, by even perhaps a hazza this way or that.
i am saying that it wouldn't take that much becuase there isn't that much. as long as the hymns are valid and according to the text khalas. because i think your thinking of "alterations" is not the same as mine.
In my opinion, the way the HCOC did it seems to be more valid(they do have a source recording backing them up) because not one hymn during holy week(i feel at least) should be completely joyful in its tune, this recording is like every other hymn during that week, half mournful and half joyful(not all hymns for that week obviously) but the big ones like Pekethronos, Taishori, Tishori, Ethve Ti(i feel has some hints of joy) The way Fr. Isiah says it is just basically tarkeeb of Piepnevma on these text. Does anyone know if there are texts that point toward the tune of this hymn?
well yes of course it's valid.....am just questioning the entire idea of "To Protect and Preserve" that is, as i expect it to be, the main goal of the choir, (even though i am also against the use of the word "choir"). Some people brought this on ch.net and they had clear valid point to.
No, there is more to it than that, the hymns although correspond with the words, does not mean that the melismata will be the same, but some alterations will inevitably spring up due to different cantor's additions to the hymn. Where you draw the line to classify one hymns as valid, and another as not is open to discussion.
well you are right. but when they are proved that they are valid hymns, why not record both. for example recording two tee-shorys. actually i have another tee-shory from Alexanderian teachings to, other than the famous 2.
joseph, can you define the alterations that you are talking about in hymns?
Now compare with HICS: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Bright_Saturday/Higher_Institute_of_Studies/01.Praises.html
HICS repeats the whole esmo epchois part again while the monks don't. Also, in the monastery, the hos erof hymn is ommited, and ari ho chasf is sadi straight away. A hazza here or there is no great difference as you said, but whole sections missed are a result of mu'allemeen causing these alterations, and this then bwing passed on.
HICS repeats the whole esmo epchois part again while the monks don't. Also, in the monastery, the hos erof hymn is ommited, and ari ho chasf is sadi straight away. A hazza here or there is no great difference as you said, but whole sections missed are a result of mu'allemeen causing these alterations, and this then bwing passed on.
I don't think that this is due to a teaching but because of a time restriction they might have had, i've heard it done the opposite where Esmo Epchois is not said the long way but Hos Erof is. I think this is purely preference or time than a teaching
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6425.msg84974#msg84974 date=1207147131]
In my opinion, the way the HCOC did it seems to be more valid(they do have a source recording backing them up) because not one hymn during holy week(i feel at least) should be completely joyful in its tune, this recording is like every other hymn during that week, half mournful and half joyful(not all hymns for that week obviously) but the big ones like Pekethronos, Taishori, Tishori, Ethve Ti(i feel has some hints of joy) The way Fr. Isiah says it is just basically tarkeeb of Piepnevma on these text. Does anyone know if there are texts that point toward the tune of this hymn?
well yes of course it's valid.....am just questioning the entire idea of "To Protect and Preserve" that is, as i expect it to be, the main goal of the choir, (even though i am also against the use of the word "choir"). Some people brought this on ch.net and they had clear valid point to.
I understand where you are coming from, i think the thing might have been why they chose to record it that specific way, and not both, do you think it could be because they didn't have a good source saying it the way father Isiah said it? I don't think they should record things that aren't that common, because those could really not be ways of hymns should be said, especially without more than one source backing that way of rendering a specific hymn.
In hymns in general? If so I'll give you an example. Take "esmo epchois" the Midnight tasbeha hymn at the end of the Third Hoos. Listen to the first section of "esmo epchois" by the monks of Sourian monastery here:http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Praises/Midnight_Praises/Sourian_Monastery,_Coptic_Midnight_Praises/Part_2.html.
Now compare with HICS: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Bright_Saturday/Higher_Institute_of_Studies/01.Praises.html
HICS repeats the whole esmo epchois part again while the monks don't. Also, in the monastery, the hos erof hymn is ommited, and ari ho chasf is sadi straight away. A hazza here or there is no great difference as you said, but whole sections missed are a result of mu'allemeen causing these alterations, and this then bwing passed on.
here there are 3 diffrent alhan, esmo epshois, hos erof, and ariho-oo-chasf. you can say one fast and the other long and so on.
alos there are some small parts here and there. but not much ya3ny. also the Sorian is more of a live one. also they doo repeat the hoos erof part!!
Arsani Sidarous - http://coptichymns.net/modules.php?name=Coptic_Media&op=modload&file=index&p=Videos/Video_Hymns
Ibrahim Ayad - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Annual/Congregation_Responses/Ibrahim_Ayad/part2.html
HICS - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Divine_Liturgies/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies,_Liturgy_of_St._Basil_in_Coptic/Part_1.html
Cantor Farag Abdel-Messih - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Annual/Congregation_Responses/Cantor_Farag_Abdelmessih.html
No mina, they don't say the lahn hos erof - but anyway, maybe its a bad example, and simply due to time restriction as jydeacon (but i dont agree totally, as in the monastery why should there be time restrictions? Tasbeha continues literally all night, i think the hymn in omitted simply because the current monks there were taught that way, as older monks before them omitted the hymn - again showing the knock-on effect that muallemin can have). A better example of alterations caused to hymns by muallemin is the pauline epistle, Pavlos Evok. Just listen to HICS, Ibrahim Ayad, Arsani Sidarous and Cantor Farag Abdel-Messih and there are variations- not one is the same. They are the same until half way through "efnoti" in the introduction, then there is variation.
Arsani Sidarous - http://coptichymns.net/modules.php?name=Coptic_Media&op=modload&file=index&p=Videos/Video_Hymns
Ibrahim Ayad - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Annual/Congregation_Responses/Ibrahim_Ayad/part2.html
HICS - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Divine_Liturgies/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies,_Liturgy_of_St._Basil_in_Coptic/Part_1.html
Cantor Farag Abdel-Messih - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Annual/Congregation_Responses/Cantor_Farag_Abdelmessih.html
Still, like i said before, your mentality of alterations is different of what is need to be put in consideration.
In the monastery there is no time restriction but tasbeha is done everyday where some times it becomes a second nature where they just skip it.
Another thing, that you might don’t know, is that the hymn [coptic]hwc `erof[/coptic] was set to only be said in Bright Saturday and Kiahk, as well as [coptic]Tenen[/coptic]. Now you have HICS and others sources they have recorded everything in the psalmody that might be said across the whole year. Don’t believe me, go to full rites of Kiahk recordings or Bright Saturday. You’ll find that [coptic]hwc `erof[/coptic] is there.
The Pauline epistle, this is a common thing. This hard is a little weird. But this really doesn’t matter as much why, because it is prayed as a solo. All you have to do is stick to one way, even though it’s not really that big of a deal because the general tune of the hymn is still the same and you want say something outrageous ya3ny.
Although I can't still comment on "Wouniatk" as I haven't heard the HICS version, but I would agree to a good extend with josephgabriel. Probably few things I think should not be taken so strictly, but overall, I like your opinion a lot. Jydeacon as usual is trying to enrich us with his knowledge of hymns, and minagir too, but I think his time limit makes him write short posts not expressing all what he wants to say. Anyway, I have already posted a similar thread on coptichymns.net in agreement with what josephgabriel is saying. Yes, different cantors are praying, and this could influence the melismata in the hymns somewhat, but not to the extent that some hymns are said entirely different (at least in some parts) between one cantor and another. Forgive me if I call this dishonesty in handing down the hymns. I think probably that is why we Egyptians like to draw ourselves up as know-alls, so anyone asked to render a hymn in the church for the kids would put their personal touch, and not care about the exact way the hymns are sung. I think that we should take extra care when rendering the hymns to the younger generation, and let them know the differences and why they came about in the first place, and then let them judge. I hope to start with myself anyway if I ever get a chance teaching hymns :)...
God bless you all and pray for us a lot